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[Lo_Fi]

I would like them to make whatever story they want.

Game developers don't exist in a vacuum. Sometimes they get feedback that convinces them to do something if the argument is backed up well. Someone writing this article and ND potentially being influenced by it falls under "the story they want."

 

[Mikeside]

I'm ok if they want to make Ellie a non-swimmer, I just hope they don't focus too much on pushing pallets across bodies of water

 

[Lo_Fi]

Why is anyone asking ND to focus on anything?



Let's let the story tellers tell the story they want to tell. If the story they want to tell is "super gay" then fantastic. If not, equally fantastic.


There shouldn't be pressure for them to do or do not though.

Would you say the same thing about any other aspect of a game? Should Naughty Dog stop playtesting their games and receiving feedback on the gameplay? Should they stop listening to anyone and everyone who comments on the visuals of the game as it develops? After all, we wouldn't want any pressure for them to do one thing or another!

It's so odd to me that games have been developed with playtesting, iteration, and feedback for as long as the industry has been around, yet as soon as you do the equivalent for a story involving controversial topics, only the developers can truly know what they want to make. It sounds like you just don't like the possibility that ND might actually listen to feedback you don't care strongly about.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I'm ok if they want to make Ellie a non-swimmer, I just hope they don't focus too much on pushing pallets across bodies of water

Best post yet.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

I'm ok if they want to make Ellie a non-swimmer, I just hope they don't focus too much on pushing pallets across bodies of water

But she's been working on her diving! Bow chicka wown down

Spoiler

I really think they'll be in Texas for part of it. I doubt the walled garden Town worked too well

 

[John Kowalski]

I'm ok if they want to make Ellie a non-swimmer, I just hope they don't focus too much on pushing pallets across bodies of water

I don't think we're going to see Ellie get wet, even with an M rating.

 

[zsynqx]

I'm ok if they want to make Ellie a non-swimmer, I just hope they don't focus too much on pushing pallets across bodies of water

Considering Ellie is the playable character, it would make sense from a gameplay perspective that they'd give you the ability to swim this time.

If not, I guess it could still be fun watching Joel struggle, pushing your lazy ass across bodies of water.

 

[BigTnaples]

Would you say the same thing about any other aspect of a game? Should Naughty Dog stop playtesting their games and receiving feedback on the gameplay? Should they stop listening to anyone and everyone who comments on the visuals of the game as it develops? After all, we wouldn't want any pressure for them to do one thing or another!

It's so odd to me that games have been developed with playtesting, iteration, and feedback for as long as the industry has been around, yet as soon as you do the equivalent for a story involving controversial topics, only the developers can truly know what they want to make. It sounds like you just don't like the possibility that ND might actually listen to feedback you don't care strongly about.

Nah.

I just like telling stories myself. And I don't like the idea of storytellers telling stories people pressure them to tell, rather than the stories they themselves want to tell. That simple really.


The narrative process and bug testing are not even comparable...

 

[Sai-kun]

Nah.

I just like telling stories myself. And I don't like the idea of storytellers telling stories people pressure them to tell, rather than the stories they themselves want to tell. That simple really.


The narrative process and bug testing are not even comparable...

ND are the ones that made Ellie gay in the first place though 🤔🤔🤔

 

[The Technomancer]

ND are the ones that made Ellie gay in the first place though 🤔🤔🤔

Clearly because of "pressure" though

"""pressure"""

 

[Can Crusher]

Keep it on the level of Left Behind. The universe of the game doesn't credibly lend itself to focusing on matters of social acceptance around homosexuality. And regarding the quoted post in the O.P, very well, but the constructs around one's sexual identity would be completely out of context in the world depicted in the Last of Us. Specially for a character that grew up in that world.

 

[Razmos]

Keep it on the level of Left Behind. The universe of the game doesn't credibly lend itself to focusing on matters of social acceptance around homosexuality. And regarding the quoted post in the O.P, very well, but the constructs around one's sexual identity would be completely out of context in the world depicted in the Last of Us. Specially for a character that grew up in that world.

There doesn't need to be any mention of social acceptance or even any conflict regarding it

 

[CornBurrito]

Nah.

I just like telling stories myself. And I don't like the idea of storytellers telling stories people pressure them to tell, rather than the stories they themselves want to tell. That simple really.


The narrative process and bug testing are not even comparable...

Implying that the desire for profit and market forces don't already shape the stories people in the industry tell.

Keep it on the level of Left Behind. The universe of the game doesn't credibly lend itself to focusing on matters of social acceptance around homosexuality. And regarding the quoted post in the O.P, very well, but the constructs around one's sexual identity would be completely out of context in the world depicted in the Last of Us. Specially for a character that grew up in that world.

Ah yes, where a magical zombie apocalypse is fine to you but a character identifying as a lesbian in that world just breaks your suspension of disbelief.

 

[_Ryo_]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

Very well said.

 

[BigTnaples]

ND are the ones that made Ellie gay in the first place though 🤔🤔🤔

Clearly because of "pressure" though

"""pressure"""

I dunno that you read my post.


I said it would be fantastic if Naughty Dog wants to make TLoU Part II Super Gay.


I just played Left Behind (Finally) this past weekend, and it got me all misty eyed. It was great in both player engagement and emotional connection, in an experience I was able to complete in one sitting.

What I am saying is. We, or the author of the article, shouldn't "pressure" or rally for them to tell the story we want them to tell or we want to hear. Let them tell the story from their hearts. If we love it, great, if we hate it, well, unfortunate, but at least its theirs.

I have always thought it was silly to let outside pressure dictate what stories we tell. Regardless of what the subject at hand is. To let the world and your environment influence what you write is inevitable. But when it gets to the point where you're saying "People want this to be the focus of the story" or "people want this character", you've failed in my opinion.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

Ah yes, where a magical zombie apocalypse is fine to you but a character identifying as a lesbian in that world just breaks your suspension of disbelief.

I'm pretty sure what he was saying is not a single character in the original gave a fuck about what people did with their bits when not being chased by infected or hunted by marauding bands of psychopathic murderers. Ellie and Bill's homosexuality wasn't treated as the point of focus, but their relationships, love and the emotional impact resulting from the loss was.

I could be wrong but that was my take on what what he was getting at.

 

[Lime]

Left Behind was better than TLOU and it's the primary reason I'm interested in a sequel / what Naughty Dog is capable of.

 

[mckmas8808]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

This is how I feel on a different front as being a black man. You hear some concerned progressive people say things like "I don't see color or race". And I'm like "WHY NOT?!" Notice my blackness, while also accepting me for who I am at the same time.

Don't strip one of my key defining identities from me because you are uncomfortable. So as a straight black male, thanks for allow me to understand that someone else of a different minority group feels this exact way in their own right. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Madame M]

Clearly because of "pressure" though

"""pressure"""

I think the word you are looking for is "pegging"

 

[Stallion Dan]

I'd rather they didn't make it a big thing since any sexuality in games is always awful except when subtle.


But if they do, good for those who care about that.

 

[Madame M]

The GOAT LGBT character in video games is obviously Oshare Bones

 

[Monocle]

"Hey you guys, have you considered that representation just isn't that important and shouldn't really matter to anyone?"

-straight people

I just hope the game is super good with great gameplay and the multiplayer has the roots and soul of the current one. Do not care about main characters sexual orientation because that no adds or quits value to a game.

Oh look.

 

[Madame M]

I for one think all the video game characters should be gay

 

[Lo_Fi]

Nah.

I just like telling stories myself. And I don't like the idea of storytellers telling stories people pressure them to tell, rather than the stories they themselves want to tell. That simple really.


The narrative process and bug testing are not even comparable...

I'm not talking about bug testing. Bugs can be objectively bad. Playtesting is more than just bug testing.

I'm talking about art, critique, feedback, and artists incorporating that critique and feedback into their work. That is all subjective, unlike bugs, and story would fall under the art, critique, feedback cycle.

All art will be subject to feedback. If an artist didn't listen to a single other person's piece of feedback, their art will likely be shit. I can only speak as a game developer, where interactivity means that you need to get a lot of people's feedback to see if it works. I imagine every other art form is similar - you can't know if something is appealing to other humans until you show it to another human and they tell you what they think of it. This article is someone telling the artists (by artists, I'm referring to the entire team at ND) what they think of the little they've seen of the game so far, and how it relates to the first game. The artists can then take that feedback into account or not, based on context. That's how all feedback works.


I'm curious, since you say you like telling stories: have you ever shared a story with another human being and then listened to what they had to say about it? If not, have you made any successful stories? (I don't know if you write books, or what.)

What I am saying is. We, or the author of the article, shouldn't "pressure" or rally for them to tell the story we want them to tell or we want to hear. Let them tell the story from their hearts. If we love it, great, if we hate it, well, unfortunate, but at least its theirs.

I have always thought it was silly to let outside pressure dictate what stories we tell. Regardless of what the subject at hand is. To let the world and your environment influence what you write is inevitable. But when it gets to the point where you're saying "People want this to be the focus of the story" or "people want this character", you've failed in my opinion.

Oof. No. All feedback, unless it harms or threatens someone, is legitimate. It is not your job, or other people's jobs to determine what feedback is or isn't appropriate for a piece of art. It is the artists job to determine what feedback to listen to. Us game developers don't just grab any feedback we can and instantly incorporate it - please don't treat us like we're that stupid. Good game developers also know to listen to the problem someone wants solved, not necessarily the solution they suggest. So don't worry on that front either, we don't just take playtester's words at face value, we dig into it.

If there is no harm or threats coming from the person giving the feedback, why do you care? Naughty Dog is free to ignore it completely if they want. In fact, part of their job is to determine if they should listen to this article or not, based on the context (who wrote it, what ND's goals are for the game, how well their argument is backed up, etc.) An extreme example would be if a 90-year-old grandma played my action game. Her feedback wouldn't be that important to me most likely, as she is not my target audience. ND are free to do the same if they think the writer/writer's audience aren't ND's target audience, it doesn't match their goals for the game, etc.

You don't have to protect us game developers from scary, scary feedback. We decide what to do with it, not you.

And to the bolded: if you stick to that you will very likely not be a successful storyteller. Your sentence is a weird way to say "I have always thought it was silly to listen to feedback when making decisions on what stories to tell". Unless you're already a great storyteller, I dunno, maybe you can prove me wrong. Not listening to any feedback on your art is a terrible, terrible idea. No one is born with a sense of what appeals to humans when making art. That is learned through listening to feedback, among other things.

To the italicized: How the hell do we define that? If the game comes out and it involves a lesbian romance, how are you going to tell if it was from "pressure", or if it was from deep down in their hearts? If by deep down in their hearts you mean "without influence", well I guess they should hire a baby at ND for their lead writer, because that's about the only type of person in this world that isn't going to have been influenced by others.

It sounds like you just don't want Naughty Dog to bring a lesbian romance to the forefront of the game if that doesn't match their vision. Why would you worry about that? Ultimately they are the ones that decide if it matches their vision or not. ND are incredibly smart and talented, they're not going to just listen to any and all feedback and stuff everything that everyone shouts at them into the game even if it doesn't fit.

 

[CosmicGroinPull]

They steal Ellen Page's likeness, now they have to steal her sexual preference too?! /*feigned outrage*

 

[Kenzodielocke]

They steal Ellen Page's likeness, now they have to steal her sexual preference too?! /*feigned outrage*

It was probably mentioned already, but Ellen Page came out the same day as Left Behind.

 

[Oppo]

It was probably mentioned already, but Ellen Page came out the same day as Left Behind.

"sexual appropriation", then?

 

[mckmas8808]

It was probably mentioned already, but Ellen Page came out the same day as Left Behind.

I didn't even know she came out at all. No way she used that timing due to the game right?

 

[Prototype Viktor]

I didn't even know she came out at all. No way she used that timing due to the game right?

No she came out at a HRCF event
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1hlCEIUATzg

 

[Ran rp]

No she came out at a HRCF event
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1hlCEIUATzg

everyone expected it but i still cried lol