Support NeoGAF

[Ninja Scooter]

All of a sudden you suggest the idea of having gay characters and storylines and people are like "just give me good gameplay" as if narrative doesn't matter in games. lol

#gameplaymatters=#AllLivesMatter

 

[pswii60]

People who support an unfair status quo will say "that's just how things are" because to them the status quo, even a massively unfair one, is better to maintain than upset even if it would do wonders for marginalized groups and minorities. An extreme parallal would be something like going,"Boys will be boys" after a man does something horrible like sexual assault

I understand the term 'status quo', but I thought it was a band/music reference, not the word reference. Fair enough.

I just kept thinking.. they never did that track!

 

[DedValve]

Sure, but you're not allowed to talk about your platform, your marketing materials are only allowed to be grey or khaki, and you're not allowed to hold press conferences or rallies.

As long as its not the tea par--I mean Ku klux- I mean Neo-nazi- I mean alt-righ- I mean republican party.

 

[QuantumBro]

Actually, Rafe is responsible for endangering the people of Madagascar. As for the treasure he barely even got any from the past 3 games. If he took all the treasure as you say wouldn't he be super rich? He didn't even have enough money to get into the auction house.

Drake could've stayed home instead of going after Rafe which would've allowed Rafe to get the treasure without resorting to violence.

Here's videos of all the treasures Drake has found throughout the game 1, 2, and 3. Several of those are found when looking through his house during the beginning of the game or during the epilogue.

 

[messiaen]

Every time this gets posted I don't understand the link between Status Quo and "it's just the way it is"??

Either it's 'the way it goes' by SQ or 'the way it is' by Bruce Hornsby and the Range.

People who don't question the status quo and are content with it often are of the belief that, "that's just the way things are." They literally go hand in hand.

Maintaining the status quo is to accept things as they are, even if it's harmful to a group of people.

 

[Harmen]

Would be cool if they can pave the way for a genuine lesbian relationship of a main protagonist in an AAA title. ND nailed the Elena/Drake relationship in UC4 so I think they could write/direct a great relationship for Ellie. That said, I want ND to focus on whatever they feel is the natural progression from part I to part II.

 

[Woorloog]

All of a sudden you suggest the idea of having gay characters and storylines and people are like "just give me good gameplay" as if narrative doesn't matter in games. lol

#gameplaymatters=#AllLivesMatter

Diversionary tactic. Confuse the issue and hope things get deflected.
Same anti-progressive fucks who think they need a "safe space" from the idea of that others get equality or representation.

 

[napata]

You can laugh at me later if I'm wrong, but I kinda doubt ND will push the "sexy lesbians to titillate straight men" angle in their generally serious and brutal post-apocalyptic world.

Oh I don't think they'll do that either. It's just that for straight men a female love interest for the main character is much more natural than a male one, regardless of the actual gender of the main character.

As a straight male I once tried roleplaying as a straight woman in some Bioware game. To me it felt gay and thus quite awkward, which I thought was ironic considering I was playing as a female. I guess most people can't help but self-insert a part of themselves into the main character.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

Left Behind worked out pretty well. If Ellie being at least a little queer weirds you out, get your ass into the 21st century or shut up.

 

[Orayn]

So? Just because the writer is gay doesnt mean she isnt capable of reinforcing stereotypes.

At what point do cross over from wanting their own identities represented in the media to reinforcing stereotypes, though?

It comes up a lot in these discussions, where people put forth an "ideal" or "correct" gay character whose sexuality has to be subtle or even obfuscated. Some of the people who who demand it don't realize that they're doing so at the cost of delegitimizing the identities of people who are happily, outwardly, fantastically gay in a way that they make no effort to hide.

 

[TGO]

We know she has a thing but I hope they don't focus on that

 

[Dantis]

Ellie should be Ellie. If she's gay, she's gay. It shouldn't be a thing unless it really means it, and it won't, because LoU isn't about sexuality.

Nadine was pushed in a certain direction, and I think it was partly because Druckman was determined to make a super tough female character, and she was all the worse for it.

LoU doesn't have to make a social point with something like this. I don't think it should be any more than a footnote, just like every other character in the first game.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

All of a sudden you suggest the idea of having gay characters and storylines and people are like "just give me good gameplay" as if narrative doesn't matter in games. lol

#gameplaymatters=#AllLivesMatter

Don't forget "gay undertones are all you need!"

 

[Fitts]

Will this be the first AAA game with a gay lead?

...huh. This didn't even occur to me when she was announced as the main playable character. Good stuff.

 

[Darryl M R]

Lol "I hope they don't focus on the protagonist being gay" but no one says anything about when there is a straight protagonist.

"Man I hope they don't show this dude with his wife or girlfriend."

Also LMAO at any comment that says "I just want good gameplay" as if Naughty Dogs are not praised around the internet for their good narratives. You just don't want a gay narrative.

 

[Apathy]

This game is going to get dissected more times than we can possibly think is normal before it's even released.

I trust that whatever story they want to tell that it's done right. And people "concerned" that they'll shove her sexuality in your face, think about Bill. How many people guessed that bill was gay before it was made clear he was. They are clearly capable of writing a gay character without his sexuality being his defining quality. If her sexuality is a facet of the game, it'll be done right where she's not a character solely defined by that but being another characteristic to make her a more believable character. Your fears that they'll be shoving it in you face, no matter how irrational it is, won't come to fruition.

 

[Inuhanyou]

At what point do cross over from wanting their own identities represented in the media to reinforcing stereotypes, though?

It comes up a lot in these discussions, where people put forth an "ideal" or "correct" gay character whose sexuality has to be subtle or even obfuscated. Some of the people who who demand it don't realize that they're doing so at the cost of delegitimizing the identities of people who are happily, outwardly, fantastically gay in a way that they make no effort to hide

But the issue is that Ellie is not that kind of character though. There are plenty of men and women who are like that(and they are also sometimes portrayed offensively in the media through that type of stereotype), but we have to be true to the characters involved as well.

Lol "I hope they don't focus on the protagonist being gay" but no one says anything about when there is a straight protagonist.

"Man I hope they don't show this dude with his wife or girlfriend."

Again, i hope i don't come across as being offensive, but i don't think the argument of those not being homophobic are saying that Ellie should not have a love interest that is portrayed in a real organic relationship. Its just that the idea of her sexual orientation taking over the game and her character should not happen.

We already have issues with male machismo being a problem that we have had to fight to change in media, it should not run in the other direction.

 

[DoctorFling]

I don't think I've ever played as a gay character aside from games where it's optional. Well aside from Left Behind but that ain't no full game. So yeah, I'm really interested.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Point being (and I know how negatively this can be construed, but I'm going to say it anyway) you don't need to go out of your way to make a statement. Like Bill and Ellie showed us, you can be subtle about it, and make it ring even truer and louder (in my opinion).

Apart from making her lesbian version of "Big Gay Al", what would be the issue with them not being "subtle" about it? Like, if she was outwardly and vocally gay, what would be dishonest about it? And by "outwardly and vocally", I mean her explicitly displaying feelings for another woman in a romantic/sexual manner.

 

[semiconscious]

I found Ellie being a lesbian cool because it was subtle and not a big deal.

If it becomes a focus point of the second game it would be disappointing I think.

this. while i understand & appreciate the author of the article's point, i'm thinking 'i hope the last of us part 2 is super gay' is maybe not the best way to express it? ...

 

[Gbraga]

I'm not opposed to this at all, but I find it unlikely, given the tone set by the trailer. Except for a bit in the prologue and/or epilogue, I can't see Ellie just being happy with her girlfriend/wife/partner/whatever. This is a revenge story, after all. At most, I can see them showing her living a good life for a while with her loved one, only to have her killed in order to start Ellie's quest for revenge.

It would be cliched as fuck, though, so I hope that's not the case. But "I'm gonna find and I'm gonna kill every last one of them" isn't exactly the most original plot pitch, and The Last of Us was never about the actual plot anyway, but the character interaction and development, so who knows.

Ellie should be Ellie. If she's gay, she's gay. It shouldn't be a thing unless it really means it, and it won't, because LoU isn't about sexuality.

Nadine was pushed in a certain direction, and I think it was partly because Druckman was determined to make a super tough female character, and she was all the worse for it.

LoU doesn't have to make a social point with something like this. I don't think it should be any more than a footnote, just like every other character in the first game.

Agreed about Nadine. She's a terrible character, unfortunately.

It was Lightning all over again.

UGHHH I'M SO TOUGH

*punches male character*

I was negatively surprised to see her with Chloe in The Lost Legacy. Hopefully they'll make her a more interesting character through the game, but so far all I'm thinking is that I wish it was Cutter.

 

[Darryl M R]

But the issue is that Ellie is not that kind of character though. There are plenty of men and women who are like that(and they are also sometimes portrayed offensively in the media through that type of stereotype), but we have to be true to the characters involved as well.

Please explain what type of character Ellie is then, since I remember her having a pretty gay scene.

 

[Kazooie]

To me she is just Ellie, a character I like who happens to be gay.

Being gay isn't the defining characteristic of Ellie.

Like cool I guess she is gay but who cares.

 

[Apathy]

I don't think I've ever played as a gay character aside from games where it's optional. Well aside from Left Behind but that ain't no full game. So yeah, I'm really interested.

The main character in life is strange can have a female love interest

 

[Basketball]

To be the devil's advocate for the "gameplay first , everything else later" post

I think these post probably mean they don't want the game to be "super" gay like the writer of the article wants. Left behind did a great job I thought everything included, plus that along with that other character in the game that was gay.

Makes me think of that one trait in Rogue Legacy a bit

 

[Alienfan]

Ellie should be Ellie. If she's gay, she's gay. It shouldn't be a thing unless it really means it, and it won't, because LoU isn't about sexuality.

Nadine was pushed in a certain direction, and I think it was partly because Druckman was determined to make a super tough female character, and she was all the worse for it.

LoU doesn't have to make a social point with something like this. I don't think it should be any more than a footnote, just like every other character in the first game.

I gather you're the writer? And just because the first game didn't explore a certain theme doesn't limit the second game from doing so (and the first game did with Joel to a degree, but because he's straight, no one batted an eye).
The Last of Us was riddled with "social point", and most narratives are for that matter. I don't see how Ellie's sexuality will be more of a social point than Nathan Drake and Elena's relationship in Uncharted.

 

[Orayn]

But the issue is that Ellie is not that kind of character though. There are plenty of men and women who are like that(and they are also sometimes portrayed offensively in the media through that type of stereotype), but we have to be true to the characters involved as well.

I'm somewhat inclined to agree, but a lot about a person's behavior can change in five years, especially a young teenager.

It's obviously very possible to attempt forms of representation that don't ring true for the character or the circumstances of the story. I can still potentially see some ways for TLOU to move in an "unapologetically gay" direction that doesn't feel out of place, and I trust Naughty Dog to do a good job if that is indeed where they decide to take things.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Please explain what type of character Ellie is then, since I remember her having a pretty gay scene.

There's a difference between being a bi character or a gay character and being 'outwardly flamboyant'.

What we've seen of Elie, she's a girl who doesn't have time for fashion, can act her age, and can be a cold blooded killer, but generally speaking, acts and talks just like anybody else in the world besides the fact that she once loved a girl she was close with.

 

[Lights and Waves]

Why does this even Matter?

...anyway, the idea of having a gay main character of a AAA game makes me so freaking happy.

 

[Gbraga]

The main character in life is strange can have a female love interest

Can, but not necessarily. It's an important distinction.

I can't think of another example at the moment.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

At what point do cross over from wanting their own identities represented in the media to reinforcing stereotypes, though?

It comes up a lot in these discussions, where people put forth an "ideal" or "correct" gay character whose sexuality has to be subtle or even obfuscated. Some of the people who who demand it don't realize that they're doing so at the cost of delegitimizing the identities of people who are happily, outwardly, fantastically gay in a way that they make no effort to hide.

To me, it's the association the author makes between lesbianism and "toughness" along with masculine/androgynous style. That's not celebrating lesbians, it's boxing them in whilst othering all tough, masculine/androgynous heterosexual woman.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

But the issue is that Ellie is not that kind of character though. There are plenty of men and women who are like that(and they are also sometimes portrayed offensively in the media through that type of stereotype), but we have to be true to the characters involved as well.



.

Explain the to me what kind of character the 14 year old who is now 19 and has probably had a gulf of development in those 5 years is and isn't? There are tons of themes you can touch on for someone in that age range, and sexuality absolutely is one.

 

[morikaze]

This game is going to be so gay.

 

[BigTuna109]

This thread.

"I'm fine with gay characters as long as their orientation or relationship isn't a big part of the game."

How many revenge stories have we seen, read, played, etc. about heterosexual relationships? Who gives a shit if Ellie is mad someone killed/kid napped her gf (or something like that) as long as the story and gameplay are just as good as TLOU part one? People say gay characters don't matter or don't bother them....but just as long as they aren't TOO gay. Whatever.

 

[Twiforce]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I never thought of Ellie as a self aware/intentional homosexual. Perhaps it's because of my experience of knowing some confused young girls in my life and the way the game presents it.

She lives in a terrible world with hardly anyone she can trust. The only person she is emotionally invested and happy to see is her friend. So, in really dire situations and having one person she loves and cares for could easily stir circumstantial emotions leading to what happened in Left Behind. I couple that thought with the fact that I have known young girls wondering if they were actually homosexual because either no one showed interest in them, they were exceedingly lonely, or guys didn't treat them very well while a close female friend would.

Ellie could definitely be intentionally homosexual by the writers, but due to my experiences and the way I see the plot presented I don't currently see it as a character point that defined her in a meaningful way in the plot or context. I mean no disrespect to those who disagree with me, just curious if others thought about it in this way.

edit: now that I think about it, the game's DLC was released on Valentines day which I think sends a clear message about what they were trying to do with Ellie. I guess my current analysis of it is out of touch with that fact.

 

[Dantis]

I gather you're the writer? And just because the first game didn't explore a certain theme doesn't limit the second game from doing so (and the first game did with Joel to a degree, but because he's straight, no one batted an eye).
The Last of Us was riddled with "social point", and most narratives are for that matter. I don't see how Ellie's sexuality will be more of a social point than Nathan Drake and Elena's relationship in Uncharted.

Yes, I am the writer.

What kind of question is that?

LoU wasn't even slightly about sexuality. And no, it wasn't with Joel either. Stop being silly.

Ellie should still be gay, because that's who she is. Ellie should not be loudly, broadly gay, because that's not who she is.

Ellie dating a girl is fine. Cool, even. Like, it doesn't interest me, but it's different than most of the trash put out there. I don't think that counts as 'super gay' though.

And, shockingly, your Uncharted comparison is dumb. Sexual relationships are a huge part of Uncharted. The idea of 'you don't want a gay centerpiece because it's not straight' is so presumptuous and dumb that I'm rolling my fucking eyes typing this. Gosh.

 

[Inuhanyou]

To me, it's the association the author makes between lesbianism and "toughness" along with masculine/androgynous style. That's not celebrating lesbians, it's boxing them in whilst othering all tough, masculine/androgynous heterosexual woman.

This is generally my most pressing issue. The author is talking like its the 1980s and gay or bi characters have to 'act the part' in a certain way or else they can't be considered a legitimate representation of that group.

My best friend is a white bisexual. He's dated and gotten into serious relationships with both men and women throughout the entire time i've known him. But to me, he's never acted like anyone else but a normal person who just has different sexual orientation than me.

 

[Dreez]

I like how the original treated sexuality quite naturalistic; it was just how characters were. It wasn't even labelled as if... humanity had much deeper concerns.

 

[xevis]

To be the devil's advocate for the "gameplay first , everything else later" post

I think these post probably mean they don't want the game to be "super" gay like the writer of the article wants. Left behind did a great job I thought everything included, plus that along with that other character in the game that was gay.

Makes me think of that one trait in Rogue Legacy a bit

Why would be the harm if it was super gay? Like so what if she talks about women and hits on women and sleeps with women and mentions how much it sucks that society doesn't like queers and all that stuff? Why does the game need to be subtle when dealing with these issues? Why should it be left to the player's imagination? Why does it need to be well done?

edit:
awesome post. signal boosting!

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.

Hear hear

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

While I'd be all for this, I disagree with the whole "this is the character we've been building to since we met Ellie in the game proper". I didn't play Left Behind and had no idea about her sexuality until now. Unless I'm forgetting things, it didn't play a role in the main game did it? Feel free to make it a thing in the sequel, but I think the writer here is overemphasize it's importance a little bit. At least in the main game, I'd need to play Left Behind first to say for that.

This is generally my most pressing issue. The author is talking like its the 1980s and gay or bi characters have to 'act the part' in a certain way or else they can't be considered a legitimate representation of that group.

My best friend is a white bisexual. He's dated and gotten into serious relationships with both men and women throughout the entire time i've known him. But to me, he's never acted like anyone else but a normal person who just has different sexual orientation than me.

Also this, very well said

 

[Apathy]

Can, but not necessarily. It's an important distinction.

I can't think of another example at the moment.

Gone home

 

[Kazooie]

Can we all just get a grip please.

This game isn't going to be set on a beech in California. Ellie isn't going to be driving a VW Beetle convertible around with Duran Duran blaring out of the speakers drinking a frappuccino with a rainbow flag draped around her neck.

I'm happy for gay people and minorities to have role models but it shouldn't be a case of I idolise this person because they are gay. Ellie is a great character who happens to be gay but there's no point projecting what you think is the ideal gay person on to her. And if you genuinely think Naughty Dog are going to radically change her personality from the first game based on her sexuality you should probably go easy on the hippy crack.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

I sort of hope she's not....in a lot media when writers want to create their "strong female character" there's a tendency to make them a lesbian for some reason. Like in the Supergirl show, first her sister was a lesbian which was cool and organic but then they started implying that Kara herself was bi or something out of nowhere. Even better, look at the infamous Korra nonsense ending. Is the idea of a strong female character so non-traditional that everything about them needs to be made non-traditional in turn?

Break the trend, give a strong male-female romance from the female perspective and men get weirded out by the "Press [] to make out with Brad" prompt then they can leave

 

[Gbraga]

Gone home

It's not the main playable character, even though the story is about her

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

Why does this even Matter?

I agree. I want good GAMEPLAY over anything else.

You guys are banned but I hope you're lurking the thread. Do you ever stop and think about how stupid this line of thinking is? Like just think about how selfish it is.

 

[Manu]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

You win the thread.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Explain the to me what kind of character the 14 year old who is now 19 and has probably had a gulf of development in those 5 years is and isn't? There are tons of themes you can touch on for someone in that age range, and sexuality absolutely is one.

Well sure, she can change however ND wants to change her, but what exactly do you want from Ellie to 'prove' she that she is not straight, and 'be a symbol'? To cut her hair short, wear men's clothing and act in a stereotypical tough manner outwardly and talk about how many women's she's banged, like a terrible overly testosterone infused male character would?

She doesn't have to 'prove' to anyone what people of a certain sexual orientation should be like, that's my point. The author is missing that Ellie is a character and a human being first before anything.

 

[Salarians]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

Thank you.