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Ohio 'heartbeat' bill banning most abortions passes legislature, on Governor's desk
- Thread starter ultron87
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TheLostBigBoss
Banned
1) We literally have a past history to base our facts on that banning abortion doesn't stop abortion and it just endangers women due to them forcing the procedure to go underground without proper medical tools and training.
2) Your own morality on having a women be forced to have a kid doesn't superseded her choice and right of deciding what to do with her body.
You're living in a fairy tale world, we already went through this issue, you're own personal blinder-like views are literally ignoring the last 100+ years of history.
The right of a woman to terminate a human life?
Also, there are many born unwanted children that are unloved and currently in the DCS system, some of which have mental issues and have tax-payer money spent on them. Theoretically, we could expel them from our country and yet we don't. Why is that?
Also, whether it directly affects me isn't relevant. Children being given illegal substances by their parents isn't directly relevant to me, but I would definitely want to minimize that occurrence.
Lawmakers providing more funding for contraceptives along with making sex ed required and actually worthwhile (not just abstinence only education) would also decrease the amount of abortions while not taking the right away from women.
Is this the definition of man-splaining?
Let's ban alcohol while we're at it.
I'm legitimately failing to see your logic here. This goes way beyond apples and oranges
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
You're also banning the right of a woman to terminate something that can cause the loss of her human life.
I'll middle ground with the pro-lifers. Force women to give birth to unwanted children, but then the government takes the now tax-money mooching child and trains them to be soldiers. It streamlines the military recruitment process, thins out the undesirables, and wars can be fought without negative consequence of america's wanted children being blown up.
good point. there have never been times where a government had been "encouraging a pro-life culture" by creating laws against abortion. if there had been surely we'd be abortion free by now.
I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. The fact that you're comparing abortions to something like that is ridiculous.
hurricanes
Member
Is pro death sentence a terrible thing? I believe that rapists should be executed because they are nothing but garbages.
Princess Viola
Member
Not everyone considers a fetus 'human life'.
Lord Frieza
Member
You're really a fool if you think those two things are remotely the same. Either you're trolling, or you're just living in a right wing fantasy la-la land and have no idea what the reality of the situation around abortion is.
I love how you can just attach laws to seemingly completely unrelated laws
. And you have to vote for both! That is TOTALLY what the founding fathers and the Greek wanted for democracy.Law Proposer:"I have a law to ban all ice cream made out mud! All in favour?"
Random Nutjob Greek Ancestor for Republican:"Wait! I want to attach mandatory weekly vaginal and urethral probing to that law! And you can't deny me that amendment as it is my right to amend your law!"
Law Proposer:"B.. but that is not what an amendment is for, it is to amend things to the law in similar fashion, like an amendment that would clarify that chocolate ice cream is not made out of dirt either!"
Random Nutjob Greek Ancestor for Republican:"OMG MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS! You are discriminating against me. You are persecuting us Zeus Followers who feel that anybody following Apollo is representing a war on Olympus! And.."
Law Proposer:"OKAY OKAY! So any in favour? Nobody... really anybody.... sigh.. the law fails."
Random Nutjob Greek Ancestor for Republican:"Democracy works again! Please all accept the outcome and come together as one nation, under a nice mud ice cream at my wife's "Mud Delicacies bar!""
The right of a woman to bodily autonomy.
Explain to me why, in our country you cannot be forced to donate blood, tissue, or organs even if you are dead, and yet we want to throw out the concept of bodily autonomy for women? Dead people have more rights than women over their own bodies in your worldview.
Right, considering that fetus can't survive even outside of the womb until roughly Week 24.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Nope.
Teaching sex education in school and providing affordable birth control lead to less abortions because less people would be getting pregnant.
And it would be done without old white mens' morality forced upon everyone to boot.
What do you prefer? Not allow the fetus to be born or allow it and then have that kid suffer while being forced to digest illegal substances, forced to child labor, become criminal or many other bad stuff, while the mother has a big burden in her life or just forgets the damn child?
What all the civilizations should aim is sex education in schools.
Yeah, it really kind of is, at least in this particular case. I don't want to turn this into an abortion debate, but a lot of people (including myself) would argue that a fetus is only a "human being" in the sense that a zygote or sperm is. Why should your beliefs trump mine or anyone else's? More importantly, why do you feel entitled to shove your beliefs down the throats of others via legislation?
Lord Frieza
Member
I work as a direct care worker in a DCS ran facility. I know very well what that looks like, and this is pure bullshit deflection that has nothing to do with the topic of the argument. You're floundering with no real response, and you know it.
Jesus Christ. Why do people care what other people do so damn much? As an Ohioan, this ticks me off. I can only imagine how the women who will be affected by this feel.
Forcing others to have children because of your religious beliefs is ridiculous. Instead of an abortion, let's make not only the mother suffer by dealing with a child that is unwanted because of financial situations, age, etc.,but the child have to grow up in an environment that probably won't lead to a great upbringing.
Piss off.
Forcing others to have children because of your religious beliefs is ridiculous. Instead of an abortion, let's make not only the mother suffer by dealing with a child that is unwanted because of financial situations, age, etc.,but the child have to grow up in an environment that probably won't lead to a great upbringing.
Piss off.
I read an article once that said the biggest way to counteract pro-life narratives is for the daughters of pro-lifers to get accidentally pregnant, because then it's not some abstract, paternalistic battle of morals but an actual issue for someone they love to now deal with, an issue that could ruin their education, reputation, and actual life, what with pregnancy sometimes being a life-threatening condition and all. Maybe in the shortsighted furor of celebrating the biggest win of anti-intellectualism this country's seen in awhile some of these assholes will actually have to personally understand the issue.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
False equivalency dude. Children need to be protected against dangers they can't comprehend, in the same way that woman need protection from folks like yourself.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
The definition of "life" is based on morality and upbringing. That's it.
Does life start when a sperm seed and egg combine? If so, then we have half of all fertilized eggs turn into miscarriages and child deaths every month because a large amount of fertilized eggs are never brought to term. Do we need to get a funeral service every time a women has a period and expels a fertilized egg?
I mean, overall, if we follow through with your personal interpretation and allow these laws, we're going to need a lot of fucking funeral services because 40%-65% of all conceptions end in miscarriage, which means by your definition, a child is dead every time that happens.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Pro lifers are batshit insane, this thread is proof of it.
Because even if you see a zygote as a person, men long ago decided that women being able to decide who lives and who dies was out of the question.
Look i think abortion is fucked up too but as someone who will never have to make that decision for themselves I think it's pretty fucked up to tell other people what they can or cannot do with their own bodies.
Pro-life culture was encouraged in the past and plenty of illegal abortions were done.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Abortion is a weird issue to me in that the natural conservative mindset seems to be completely overridden by religion.
As a non religious conservative person, my stance on abortion is that I want more abortions, many more. I want a lot less children being born and especially to parents that don't want them or can't afford them. It would probably be preferable to prevent the pregnancies entirely, but I'm happy either way.
I really wish we had more non religious conservatives in politics.
As a non religious conservative person, my stance on abortion is that I want more abortions, many more. I want a lot less children being born and especially to parents that don't want them or can't afford them. It would probably be preferable to prevent the pregnancies entirely, but I'm happy either way.
I really wish we had more non religious conservatives in politics.
....goes against the "separation of church and state" clause of the constitution. Though we can argue with people all day and they wouldn't change their minds.
This is just like when people said "I'm offended by Trump grabbing pussy because I have a daughter." People just lack empathy. If it didn't happen to them or their family, they can't understand. It's sickening and sad how many people don't give a damn about others.
No it wouldn't. Alcohol, drugs, sex...some things don't go away because you write some legislation. There's even less incentive for the politicians to 'educate' the public once they stamp a banned sticker on it and walk away.
You want to minimize abortions? Actually dedicate resources to that education, sex Ed and contraception, outreach programs where experienced young people talk to others about their experience. Give women's health clinics and programs the resources they need to educate and responsibly teach about prevention and alternatives.
Banning attempts are the ass backwards way of approaching this and serves no purpose other than keeping the cycle going and insuring some politicians they'll get certain votes no matter what stupid shit they do outside of abortion.
It isn't simply banning abortions that prevents abortions from occurring. A social movement that fosters dialogue and education about the moral status of the newborn is a precondition for any social development on the issue.
Also, the article indicates that the abortion rate doesn't skyrocket after banning it, so there's no utilitarian argument to be made here.
If abortion is morally wrong, it's still wrong regardless of whether banning it doesn't decrease the rate of illegal procedures.
I need you to defend the view that a woman's choice overrides the innocence of a human life. That's a moral proposition that seems self-evidently false, so I'll need you to provide an argument to defend it.
Carpe Carnim
Member
This is a-historical AT BEST. Prior to Griswold and Roe, abortions still occurred despite society "being educated on the moral status of the unborn."
You should read your Bible for the status afforded what are now known as fetuses. I bet you wouldn't agree with their example either.
Shorter: If it ain't your uterus, stay the fuck out of it. Period.
I need you to defend the view that a soup of cells with no intelligence or feelings overrides the right of bodily autonomy a woman should inherently have.
Abortion isn't a moral right, though.
The burden is yours to demonstrate to everyone why terminating a human life is a choice that is morally neutral.
Vicetrailia
Member
Some people need to realize that people will never stop having sex before marriage, and that men will never stop raping women.
Best you can do is to give people the most amount of options to protect themselves.
Because less protection leads to more issues. Do what actually works.
Best you can do is to give people the most amount of options to protect themselves.
Because less protection leads to more issues. Do what actually works.
Until Trump gets a pick or two into the Supreme Court (entirely possible by the time a suit filed against this law bubbles up there). There's no guarantee that the existing conservative Justices would be willing to uphold 40+ years of precedent, but it's pretty much guaranteed that Trump picks would choose not to.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
What is your definition of life.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Keep dreaming, he is in lala land and will give you a non answer answer.
It absolutely is, because women have bodily autonomy. That is a moral right.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
No Guys wahit
Its about the economy, the working class folks are hurting
its about trade!!!
Its about the economy, the working class folks are hurting
its about trade!!!
Until medical science has advanced to a point where we can completely control reproduction, make it 100% safe and risk free for the woman, and eliminate all birth defects and genetic disorders, abortion is a necessary procedure.
Otherwise you are putting religious teachings and feelings above cold hard truth that sometimes abortions are the most compassionate option in many circumstances.
Otherwise you are putting religious teachings and feelings above cold hard truth that sometimes abortions are the most compassionate option in many circumstances.
Awesome, I'd love to. So you think that intelligence is a necessary prerequisite for moral value?
Can you explain to me why recently born human infants are intrinsically more valuable than pigs (the latter of which are more intelligent than the former)?
Princess Viola
Member
Because a woman has bodily autonomy.
Saying that abortion should be banned or immoral is literally telling women that they don't have the right to control their own bodies.
RageWaffles
Member
The right to bodily autonomy.
No one can force you to donate blood or organs, even if you are the only one who can save a certain person. Because you have a right to decide what happens to and who uses your body. Women have that same right.
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