Leaving the game for dead after this year may not be the best course of action, especially for keeping the competitive scene going. And besides, Capcom's already planning to stay the course for SFV until 2020 (so likely 3 more seasons after Season 2).
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Ultra David feels Street Fighter 5 needs an entire re-release
- Thread starter PadWarrior
- Start date
Nope. It won't. SF5's ship has sailed. That's why MVCI is going to be their hopeful casual FGC cash cow.
MVCI cannot launch without Arcade Mode, a Story Mode, a shit UI, shit netcode, barebones features at launch including online lobbies. MVCI cannot launch with a Fight Money type system that keeps the game online only, which in turn makes modes like Survival unbearable. SF5 might be the last SF game for a long time because of how much they fucked it up and how fucked up it remains to this day.
I wouldn't say a long time. If anything, we'll probably hear rumblings of SFVI after Season 5 of SFV wraps up at the end of 2020. That seems about the right amount of time to support SFV (given Capcom's current road-map for long-term SFV support) before moving on to the next game.
The skill should be WHEN to use moves not IF you can use the moves. Imagine if you had to press a button combo to move a chess piece and if you failed it didn't move. Chess is about positioning and when to do the next move. Moving the piece should not be the difficult part.
"SFVI is coming! First characters we announce? Ryu, Chun...and SAKURA AND SAGAT!!! WITH ARCADE MODE THAT HAVE DIFFERENT DIFFICULTY LEVELS WITH DIFFERENT ENDINGS AND THAT'S NOT COUNTING THE 10 HOUR LONG STORY MODE!!!!!!!"
Great analogy.
No thanks the gameplay of SFV is great as it is what the game needs is contents.
The plans are there sure but at this point they should just cut the losses and go back to the drawing board with SF6 and do something completely new. The competitive scene is tiny after all.
I mean, we aren't gonna get SFVI until 2022 bare minimum. So if Capcom already has everything charted out from a financial standpoint for long-term SFV support for both content & the CPT, might as well see it through. Killing the game off now would only piss off the player-base that's currently there.
abstract alien
Member
Execution is a huge part of the satisfaction for me, so this isn't appealing at all for my own tastes. There is no good fighter that doesn't have some sort of mastery behind it. Even in Smash, you have to master the movement, which is more difficult than combo/input execution in Street Fighter, yet it's still deemed casual friendly. Comparing it to chess is like comparing chess to boxing. Chess isn't meant to have depth in the execution department, as it's appeal lies in other places.
I'm not exactly the casual market though.
Scrub Mcgrubb
Member
The game certainly suffers from a public image problem... and I'd say a big part of the problem is lousy PR. They've been VERY unclear on the Season 2 DLC roster... you have a slide that says one thing, a director that says a different thing, and his translator is saying a third different thing- and they don't feel the need to clarify it.
They had a very short window at launch to address all the complaints... they failed miserably and on top of that put a root kit on people's computers. It's a damn shame too when the core game is probably one of the best Street Fighter games ever.
There were just too many incompetent people involved unfortunately- the PR department, single man netcode team, nobody telling Bengus is art looks like crap, outsourcing character models to lesser skilled artists and not fixing the ugly ones like Ken, the PC build team that can't get d-input to work/fix widely reported bugs and crashes/ put malware in updates, etc. At the end of the day its the job of the Producer to keep this stuff in check... unfortunately Ono wasn't up to the job. Just like SFxT, or Capcom Fighting Jam, or Remember Me, or any of his other big flops.
They had a very short window at launch to address all the complaints... they failed miserably and on top of that put a root kit on people's computers. It's a damn shame too when the core game is probably one of the best Street Fighter games ever.
There were just too many incompetent people involved unfortunately- the PR department, single man netcode team, nobody telling Bengus is art looks like crap, outsourcing character models to lesser skilled artists and not fixing the ugly ones like Ken, the PC build team that can't get d-input to work/fix widely reported bugs and crashes/ put malware in updates, etc. At the end of the day its the job of the Producer to keep this stuff in check... unfortunately Ono wasn't up to the job. Just like SFxT, or Capcom Fighting Jam, or Remember Me, or any of his other big flops.
Hyperbole at its best. MvCI will sell but because of the MCU and simplified controls (I'm betting) but it certainly
Won't eclipse SFV in terms of popularity within the FGC in the long run. SFV is a different game than MvCI where the latter has always been about fan service anyway.
As for Ultra David's comments. He's not wrong. Like he said, the gameplay is indeed fantastic (the most important thing) and it's great to play and watch but the "casual" side is indeed rubbish but that's not to say it's not more accessible than SFIV. I do like that GAF cares about this game though, considering the love hate relationship it has around here.
I don't think it was Ono's fault per se. He is simply the producer, it's the director and the people above him who have made these rash and illogical decisions which led to the casuals side complaints. I don't have a problem with the models (apart from Ken's face) but I do agree with you about PR. The disconnect between the Japanese and USA team has to be sorted out.
Give them something appealing to do that isn't JUST fighting people online.
Guilty Gear does it, Tekken does it, Blaz Blue does it, Mortal Kombat does it, Killer Instinct does it.
Capcom are literally the only people making fighting games that don't do it (anymore).
Z
ZelbZelb
Unconfirmed Member
I honestly don't think 'dumbing down' a game is what casuals are looking for. I think we need to move away from an idea of 'How do we get them to like what we like?' or 'If you're not playing to get better/win, why are you here?' and more acceptance that people play games for different reasons.
Developers should instead think about how potential players can enjoy the game in as many different ways as possible. You don't even need to throw a ton of AAA money at it. Something like a color-edit mode (CvS2 style, not SFxT insanity) or a Kombat Tower, or a World Tour. Something simple, yet addictive. If you have an opportunity to 'share', even better. Look at SoulCalibur 5. Even though the creation mode was hurt by the budget (it walks a fine line between brilliant and garbage), there are still people tinkering with it today. You can still find people making 'show me your creations' rooms online. Are these people not keeping the game in the ether as the people that still travel to play in tournaments? Or stream the game? Obviously, create-a-character is no joke in terms of development, but it shows how including something like that goes a long way.
Juicebox has said that learning a fighting game is like learning an instrument. Some folks would rather play Guitar Hero. That isn't to say they want to take their piece of plastic and hop on Juicebox's stage and jam with him, but they have their own way of enjoying music. Just like people who just like to listen to music and support their scene by going to concerts (viewing streams or going to evo).
If you want people to get used to fighting game inputs, I think Fight Lab in TTT2 was the beginning of something. Turning the act of learning fighting game stuff in an of itself into a series of mini-games with fun visuals and instant gratification. Something like have a Rhythm Heaven medley mode styled mini-game for each character, where their theme is playing and you do their special move inputs with the music and it gets faster and more challenging. It would make doing the inputs second nature, while building an attachment to the game and their character. Then they could move on to other things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKvgZI1CJq0
Honestly, I'm surprised a dev hasn't tried making a free to play game where arcade, practice, local vs, and online are free with all the characters playable. Then charge for cosmetics, and story mode chapters that have 1-2 hours each focusing on a character's experience at the tournament, maybe with a Tekken 3 styled Tekken Force stages in between the major fights. Give a chance for every character to shine instead of disappointing bit parts and allow new folks to get attached to the world.
Developers should instead think about how potential players can enjoy the game in as many different ways as possible. You don't even need to throw a ton of AAA money at it. Something like a color-edit mode (CvS2 style, not SFxT insanity) or a Kombat Tower, or a World Tour. Something simple, yet addictive. If you have an opportunity to 'share', even better. Look at SoulCalibur 5. Even though the creation mode was hurt by the budget (it walks a fine line between brilliant and garbage), there are still people tinkering with it today. You can still find people making 'show me your creations' rooms online. Are these people not keeping the game in the ether as the people that still travel to play in tournaments? Or stream the game? Obviously, create-a-character is no joke in terms of development, but it shows how including something like that goes a long way.
Juicebox has said that learning a fighting game is like learning an instrument. Some folks would rather play Guitar Hero. That isn't to say they want to take their piece of plastic and hop on Juicebox's stage and jam with him, but they have their own way of enjoying music. Just like people who just like to listen to music and support their scene by going to concerts (viewing streams or going to evo).
If you want people to get used to fighting game inputs, I think Fight Lab in TTT2 was the beginning of something. Turning the act of learning fighting game stuff in an of itself into a series of mini-games with fun visuals and instant gratification. Something like have a Rhythm Heaven medley mode styled mini-game for each character, where their theme is playing and you do their special move inputs with the music and it gets faster and more challenging. It would make doing the inputs second nature, while building an attachment to the game and their character. Then they could move on to other things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKvgZI1CJq0
Honestly, I'm surprised a dev hasn't tried making a free to play game where arcade, practice, local vs, and online are free with all the characters playable. Then charge for cosmetics, and story mode chapters that have 1-2 hours each focusing on a character's experience at the tournament, maybe with a Tekken 3 styled Tekken Force stages in between the major fights. Give a chance for every character to shine instead of disappointing bit parts and allow new folks to get attached to the world.
SpiceMelange
Member
Some moves are balanced by their execution, like Guile's sonic booms or Gief's SPD. there is a design space in taking account the execution of a move to make it unique in it's strenghts. You couldn't get away with making booms recover so fast with an hadoken motion and you couldn't get away with SPD's range and damage.
Karsticles
Member
I agree, Street Fighter V needs a two-button dash.
TheTylerRob
Member
Smash inputs should be more complex, then it would have more depth and be a better game.
Legitimately good post.
I agree that casual conversion is not the answer. Good idea for a training mode.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
MvCI can launch busted as fuck and incomplete and still sell due to the huge drought of Marvel games right now.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
bruv mvci will sell less than sf init
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
Street Fighter isn't chess. It's a fighting game, a type of action game. There's nothing wrong with it having some kind of execution barrier.
I thought this was going to be some new or controversial take on the game.
He's saying "the gameplay is great and everything around it sucks" which is what everyone has been saying since the game came out.
And a re-release isn't going to do anything. Capcom should support the game as best they can, make the money they can make off of it, and use what they've learned to make SF6, or just let the series take another break.
He's saying "the gameplay is great and everything around it sucks" which is what everyone has been saying since the game came out.
And a re-release isn't going to do anything. Capcom should support the game as best they can, make the money they can make off of it, and use what they've learned to make SF6, or just let the series take another break.
I agree with this premise. However, I think the gameplay itself is fine, it's just that the current release has a stigma. Release Super Street Fighter V, put a big marketing budget behind it and push single player features as well as more characters. Also make sure current owners can get the update at a huge discount.
There are negative connotations associated with the current release. I don't think too many people are willing to jump in unless there's a brand new version.
There are negative connotations associated with the current release. I don't think too many people are willing to jump in unless there's a brand new version.
David is 100% in the right, been saying the same thing for months.
It's strange to me Capcom cares enough to fund another season of characters, but not enough to make the game more appealing to new customers. It needs to be rebranded, refreshed and repackaged. Akuma and five new characters aren't going to do shit for this game's sales potential.
It's strange to me Capcom cares enough to fund another season of characters, but not enough to make the game more appealing to new customers. It needs to be rebranded, refreshed and repackaged. Akuma and five new characters aren't going to do shit for this game's sales potential.
And that barrier is as low as it's ever been for the mainline Street Fighter series. Quarter circle has you covered for 90% of the moves.
Neff
Member
Make accessible play effective (sf2, alpha, 3) rather than attempting to make effective play accessible (4, v).
CrispyBoar
Banned
It's certainly not going to bring in newer people. Heck, the announcement of 5 new characters alone instead of returning characters may wind up turning off those people altogether.
Undead Fantasy
Member
This is exactly what I'm waiting for.
Decent tutorials, interesting single player, something flashy, decent online reward loop and good matchmaking.
Tutorials are somehingg most fighting games struggle with.
Single player has been done well by Smash, Virtua Fighter, MK and Injustice.
Matchmaking is always iffy depending on playerbase but I had good experiences with SFV's and the last gen Tekken stuff.
Guilty Gear and Blazblue have great tutorials. VF as well.
Marvel, Mortal Kombat , Smashand Injustice are great for the flashiness.
Those compinents and a bit of luck can make a game pretty appealing to casuals. Street Fighter V lacks a bit of flash, supers are too rare and the effects aren't too hype, and its single player and tutorials lack a lot. Because of that thevasual competitor and single player gamers don't have much too do and no ways of learning the game well before hoping online.
SuitedforGaming
Member
It's too late. They shot themselves in the foot by releasing a half finished game leaving the casual crowd in the lurch. they have already established a reputation for themselves by releasing bare-bones fighters. The games have been increasingly getting worse with initial releases when it comes to content. And by the time they remedy these issues, people have tempered their hype and moved on to something else.
The only thing they can do is focus on releasing a complete experience for their future games. Then the casuals will come and boost sales up front. After that, it's up to the community to keep the hype alive.
The only thing they can do is focus on releasing a complete experience for their future games. Then the casuals will come and boost sales up front. After that, it's up to the community to keep the hype alive.
To expand on that, as a dirty CASUL, I spent my days with arcade mode on SF4, barely played online. SFV is the first time I've learned to play SF somewhat competitively, but I still would like a real arcade mode. I often just want to sit back and relax and not deal with online play.
p.s. SFV's character stories, story mode and survival are all shit modes for several reasons.
Do people really think older characters will help sales of the game as much as it did at launch? I doubt it. I would rather have new characters with new play styles that new players could potentially like rather than old ones with a re-tuned move set that certain players might not like anyway. You're right that it needs to be refreshed and rebranded but it needs to be done with casual modes, UI, DLC pricing and other QoL updates. If this game can win the award for the best fighting game of 2016 then that does indicate the popularity and likeness of the is game there, it's just that Capcom need to capitalise on that further.
With SF2 just pulling off a special move felt like a win. I was 11 to be fair.
SF2 graphics were also the best around, can't say that about SF5.
RedAssedApe
Banned
Probably not worth the money at this point.
It really is a missed opportunity.
All Capcom needed to do was rerelease the game as
Super Street Fighter V
- includes all free content so far like trials and cinematic story
- includes all season 1 characters
- includes all season 1 stages
- balance patch
- includes arcade mode
Current Street Fighter V owners get a free update that changes the name of the game to Super and includes balance patch and Arcade mode.
I also think balance patch should have spiced the game up a bit such as 2nd V Triggers for all characters.
If they did all the above with a good marketing push they could have had another sales boost without adding much needed work.
All Capcom needed to do was rerelease the game as
Super Street Fighter V
- includes all free content so far like trials and cinematic story
- includes all season 1 characters
- includes all season 1 stages
- balance patch
- includes arcade mode
Current Street Fighter V owners get a free update that changes the name of the game to Super and includes balance patch and Arcade mode.
I also think balance patch should have spiced the game up a bit such as 2nd V Triggers for all characters.
If they did all the above with a good marketing push they could have had another sales boost without adding much needed work.
Fuck Capcom for not region filtering Battle Lounges....
Will be hilarious when SFV and MVC:I can't even outsell SFxTK.
Will be hilarious when SFV and MVC:I can't even outsell SFxTK.
Z..
Member
Lower the execution barrier. Needs to happen for genre to thrive. Optional smash style controls and a dedicated single player sprawling story mode akin to recent Mortal Kombat games should do the trick of both captivating casuals and keep the invested.
But SF isn't chess. its real time. It's a close analogy, but doesn't quite hit the mark.
There is an argument to be made about difficult motions in fighting games, but this is a dangerous slippery slope. Should we reduce everything to single buttons? A button for projectiles, a button for antiairs, a button for combos, ect? Where's the line to stop? When does a game become too simple?
Punished_Snake
Member
So arcade mode is what sell street fighter games and the most important thing in the series? lol But I agree that capcom should release the game with all released dlc on disc and call it SFV: season 1 edition.
Single player content and tutorials are one thing, but no sane, average person wants to learn about frame-fucking-breakdowns and perfectly timed muscle memory speed combos to have a chance at executing moves and winning a game. The chess analogy is spot on.
I didn't need to know that shit to win at SF2.
The fighting genre has headed in an inaccessible direction for most casual gamers.
I didn't need to know that shit to win at SF2.
The fighting genre has headed in an inaccessible direction for most casual gamers.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
The issue isn't the game / mechanics itself (for the most part), it's the online matchmaking. If SF2 had had online play, it would have seemed just as impenetrable.
Red Liquorice
Member
This makes way too much sense.
Diprosalic
Banned
Everything in SF5 is already easy to execute
Not for new players.
There's a series of dull tutorials covering the basics. But say I start with wanting to learn Ryu moves and combos. I have to go to trial, pause the game to bring up a move list, and practice them consecutively to learn them out of the context of a real fight. Or I have to set up the AI myself to try out moves in different scenarios. You know what that is?
A chore and NOT. FUN.
Z..
Member
Everything in SF5 is already easy to execute
You don't understand. Casuals struggle immensely to produce a srk, for example. I've been playing these all my life and love them as they are, but they need to drop the execution barrier drastically, as an optional feature. Chess analogy posted here is great. Mastering execution in fighting games was harder than learning to play guitar, personally. Can't captivate outsiders as is.
Up+punch = srk
Forward+punch = hdk
Back+kick = ts
So on and so forth. Optional.
Baleoce
Member
Exactly.
That chess analogy really isn't great. Fighting games aren't chess and fighting games are more than just strategy.
If people knew framedata back then I assure you it wouldn't be any different than now.
Foward + medium punch, Foward + heavy punch and Back + heavy kick are already command normals for Ryu. Should SF remove those tools with simplified controls or should they take away medium, heavy hadoukens and heavy tatsumaki?
If people knew framedata back then I assure you it wouldn't be any different than now.
Foward + medium punch, Foward + heavy punch and Back + heavy kick are already command normals for Ryu. Should SF remove those tools with simplified controls or should they take away medium, heavy hadoukens and heavy tatsumaki?