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How much more powerful was the N64 compared to the PlayStation anyway?

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Conker's Bad Fur Day has the best textures of the entire generation. I never seen on PS1 this texture quality during close-ups.
Did you see the Dew Prism/Threads of Fate game, few posts above yours? That looks to have much better texture quality than Conker.

All I want to know is how they managed to fit a game the size of Super Mario 64 on around an 8mb cartridge while Crash Bandicoot is about 400mb
It is very likely that much of Crash's size are the CD music tracks, or some variant of CD quality streaming music. They also had precomputed streaming geometry (the vertex positions were precomputed and then streamed off the disc) - that probably also took a fair bit of file size. There's a big post made on Andy Gavin's blog that goes into a lot of technical details of Crash's development:

http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/02/02/making-crash-bandicoot-part-1/

It's an exceptionally good read.
 

Melchiah

Member
There was nothing on the PS1 that could match Mario 64 and Wave-race, those where quite some graphical showcases in showing what was under the hood of the N64 so to speak..

Perhaps Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver might.
Continuous data-streaming provides seamless gameplay and real-time environment morphing as you shift between the material and spectral realms enhances the sense of realism LoK creates.
 

borges

Banned
Night and day. Mario 64 was my biggest wow! to date. At that time was like having two generations distance between them. I liked PS more than N64 though, because well, catalog was broader by a mile.
 

Italia64

Neo Member
Did you see the Dew Prism/Threads of Fate game, few posts above yours? That looks to have much better texture quality than Conker.


It is very likely that much of Crash's size are the CD music tracks, or some variant of CD quality streaming music. They also had precomputed streaming geometry (the vertex positions were precomputed and then streamed off the disc) - that probably also took a fair bit of file size. There's a big post made on Andy Gavin's blog that goes into a lot of technical details of Crash's development:

http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/02/02/making-crash-bandicoot-part-1/

It's an exceptionally good read.


Here dewprism played on PS2:
https://youtu.be/9u5G7YeeM3Q

Here's Conker's textures:
https://youtu.be/gUxlKO-Ie0c

Even with no close-ups Drewprism textures are worse, try to imagine if you do a very near closeup to surfaces...
 

jmdajr

Member
Audio capabilities of PS1 was a pretty big deal. I had a nice sound system so it was huge leap in gaming for me. N64 was still stuck in SNES era for the most part in that respect.
 
I'll never understand how PS1 fanboys like you clearly are manage to convince themselves that perspective correction, Z-buffering, anti-aliasing, and all those things don't matter. Because what you're missing is that the N64 uses a LOT of hardware power to keep polygons where they should be, while the PS1 uses none because it can't do that. If Fast3d -- that is, the N64 microcode with none of those features -- had been allowed, N64 games would look as inaccurate as PS1 games, with texture warping and polygon popping galore, but polygon counts would be far above where they are on the PS1. Nintendo chose to require better-quality graphics instead, and it was one of the better moves they did with the system, I would say.

I agree. It's hard to describe, especially sight unseen, but I've many times said that N64 polygons are "thicker" than PS1 polygons. It's as if PS1 polygons are paper, and N64 polygons are cardboard. It's an odd thing to say, but clearly it's the end result of all of the above.

It's amazing to me that "which is more powerful" was ever a question. The N64 was a year or more along the technology curve from the Playstation. It was clearly a much more powerful machine. Even taking into account the difficulties of comparing dissimilar hardware, it was never a contest.
 

ascii42

Member
Sound capabilities of PS1 was a pretty big deal. I had a nice sound system so it was huge leap in gaming for me. N64 was still stuck in SNES era for the most part in that respect.

N64 lacked a dedicated sound chip, so it was actually a step back from SNES in that respect.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Here dewprism played on PS2:
https://youtu.be/9u5G7YeeM3Q

Here's Conker's textures:
https://youtu.be/gUxlKO-Ie0c

Even with no close-ups Drewprism textures are worse, try to imagine if you do a very near closeup to surfaces...
I thought you meant the game in general, or are you just asking for high res textures used for character's eyes, I'm not sure? Conker (the character) textures are a total blur in that video you linked, other than his eyes. The grass on the ground is even more blurry. The eyes however do look awesome, and use multi-pass texture rendering to boot.

This thread is 4 years old btw
The soul still burns. Much like ZX Spectrum vs C64 and Amiga vs Atari ST. Examples in these kinds of threads are endlessly fascinating to me.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Coming back into this, in terms of rendering actual 3D graphics I don't think anything on the PS1 matched up to what Acclaim and Rare accomplished on the N64. Games like Final Fantasy and Resident Evil were more art than tech since they relied heavily on pre-rendered backgrounds and movies.
 

Zeenbor

Member
In terms of performance, N64 was a weaker system due to unified memory architecture (and slow memory) and small VRAM cache. There was a lot of bus arbitration that slowed down the entire system due to UMA. The sound was also being processed by the vertex shader processor, which stole performance.

N64 had some killer features that were years ahead of their time (UMA, Vertex Shaders, Mipmapping, Sub-pixel AA, Z Buffer).

PS1 had much faster memory, bigger texture cache, better developer tools, dedicated hardware for specific tasks (sound, movie decompression).
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Coming back into this, in terms of rendering actual 3D graphics I don't think anything on the PS1 matched up to what Acclaim and Rare accomplished on the N64. Games like Final Fantasy and Resident Evil were more art than tech since they relied heavily on pre-rendered backgrounds and movies.
Rendering polygons over FMV was a very neat tech though.
 

atbigelow

Member
Figured this thread was gonna come back alive after the FF7 article.

Pretty common knowledge that the PS1 could push more actual polygons, while the N64 pushed polygons where they were actually supposed to be.

A lot of the tech talk in that article alluded to the big problem with Nintendo: their documentation and support was garbage. Not letting devs go in and work with all the hardware was limiting and they lost Square over it.

Nintendo learned a lot of hard hardware lessons with the N64.
 
Several of Rare's N64 games featured character shadows that reacted dynamically to light sources. Characters would even cast multiple shadows when exposed to multiple light sources. Was there anything even remotely like this on PSX?
 

t_wilson01

Member
The big thing the N64 struggled with (compared with the PS1) is the number of polygons, I believe. I don't think I ever read about the N64 having trouble with particles, especially from game experience.

The PS1 was incapable of providing perspective correction for the 3D graphics it showed on screen. So whenever the camera moved, you could see all the polygons warp and change form.

I would agree with this, thinking back about all the articles I read and the games that I played. N64 had more features, but could not handle as many polygons as PS1.
 

Italia64

Neo Member
I thought you meant the game in general, or are you just asking for high res textures used for character's eyes, I'm not sure? Conker (the character) textures are a total blur in that video you linked, other than his eyes. The grass on the ground is even more blurry. The eyes however do look awesome, and use multi-pass texture rendering to boot.


The soul still burns. Much like ZX Spectrum vs C64 and Amiga vs Atari ST. Examples in these kinds of threads are endlessly fascinating to me.

Many surfaces in the game are blurry, other medium quality and other the best of the generation. Usually the best are the ones on characters.
Try to watch it on CRT, you can count Conker's hairs, I'm not joking.

I saw good quality texture on PS1, but when you close-up...It's always a mess.
 
I always thought that seeing no pixels in any N64 was pretty cool. The PSXs blockyness in general made me feel like playing the Atari of 3D consoles.

Still, higher res textures, better audio and fmvs made it easier to have quality products on PSX.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
This is ridiculous! Turbo3d is worse than Fast3d in every possible way. Yes, it has a significantly higher polygon-count, but with no perspective correction or Z-buffering, everything would look PS1-inaccurate but with more polygons, and that is NOT what anyone should want from their 3d; it's a good thing when polygons stay where they're supposed to be and you aren't seeing popping seams all the time! Nintendo did the right thing to not allow anyone to use Fast3d.


Ah, yes... I'm sure you're right, of course. But I know that developers did use overlapping polygons on the PS1 in order to cover up the popping polygon seams, and I think you see some of that in those polygon meshes. So that's two things that forced PS1 polygon counts to be significantly inflated, hiding seams and reducing texture warping.


I'll never understand how PS1 fanboys like you clearly are manage to convince themselves that perspective correction, Z-buffering, anti-aliasing, and all those things don't matter. Because what you're missing is that the N64 uses a LOT of hardware power to keep polygons where they should be, while the PS1 uses none because it can't do that. If Fast3d -- that is, the N64 microcode with none of those features -- had been allowed, N64 games would look as inaccurate as PS1 games, with texture warping and polygon popping galore, but polygon counts would be far above where they are on the PS1. Nintendo chose to require better-quality graphics instead, and it was one of the better moves they did with the system, I would say. Games look and perform better on the N64 than the PS1 because the 3d actually looks like 3d graphics, and not like a warping popping mess as it does on PS1. Just look at how many polygons developers had to waste to try to cover up the worst of the effects of those problems! And that couldn't deal with it all.

As for the RAM, RDRAM has higher latency, but very fast access during each read. It's got just as many plusses as it does minuses, and was VERY fast for the time. This is why the first revi8sions of Pentium 4 motherboards in the early 2000s require RDRAM, and why the Playstation 2 uses RDRAM for its RAM as well. Eventually DRAM got better and exceeded RDRAM, but the idea that RDRAM's slower access times actually was an overall drawback is false; in fact, it's very good RAM for the time, some of the best. It just works slightly differently.

As for textures, the N64's limited texture cache is its one real design flaw. A few of the best developers figured out how to work around this and produced amazing-looking things, but most studios couldn't match Nintendo, Rare, or Factor 5... (Some people would also complain about the lack of a dedicated sound chip in the N64, but I think N64 audio was good enough.) The idea that texture quality matters more than overall image quality, as PS1 fans always seem to insist, is wrong on any objective level. It matters, yes... but PS1 image quality matters more.


Yeah, this is misleading. While it is true that a few developers were given the ability to do their own microcode, Nintendo had to really be pushed to allow it, and very, very few third-party studios were ever given the information necessary to do their own microcode. Looking at Boss Games and Factor 5's games shows what you can do with your own microcode, but not many others managed to convince Nintendo to let them try.

Well said, as usual.

I'll admit, I'm a little biased for the N64 due to the fact that I vastly prefer blurriness over pixelation. It's one of the main reasons I hated the original DS.
 
I couldn't tell through my blurry textures back then so...on a scale of McDonald's Value meals, it was a Super sized, but it came cold and it was the wrong order.
 
Many PlayStation games had better textures but the N64 was capable of having bigger open world designs.

There's absolutely no way the PlayStation could have handled Link riding on Epona while running around Hyrule field or around Lake Hylia for example.

Perfect Dark would have been almost impossible on the PlayStation as well.

Most third party games where there were two versions looked better on the N64 as well. I remember having WWF Warzone on the N64 and then seeing the PlayStation version later on and being like 'eugh'.
 
N64 was definitely more powerful, but all those games using that AA... I feel like PS1 visuals have aged somewhat better.

I think the N64's best games have aged a lot better than the Playstation's best games but the lower tier games look better on PlayStation.

The likes of Mario, Banjo, Conker etc look much better today than the best 3D platformers on PlayStation.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I think the N64's best games have aged a lot better than the Playstation's best games but the lower tier games look better on PlayStation.

The likes of Mario, Banjo, Conker etc look much better today than the best 3D platformers on PlayStation.
Crash Bandicoot 2 and 3 stil look quite awesome though, but that is of course thanks to the closed world design.

Chrono Cross
Top every game on n64

When the subject is graphics.

What? Chrono Cross is basically a render game, from what I have seen, how is this particularly impressive technologically?
 

Melchiah

Member
Many PlayStation games had better textures but the N64 was capable of having bigger open world designs.

There's absolutely no way the PlayStation could have handled Link riding on Epona while running around Hyrule field or around Lake Hylia for example.

You could travel from one end to another in the game world of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, without having to face loading screens.
 
I haven't seen one PS1 game that looks as good as Mario 64 and that's a lunch title

mario1.jpg

The soundtrack comes directly to my mind. So freaking good.
 
It's not that black and white but the N64 had Anti-aliasing and a Z-buffer(!) unlike the PS1 (the PlayStation had 'fake' 3D, due to lack of perspective correction you get warped textures when close to screen)..
Ohhh...So THAT is why it was called Crash Bandicoot- Warped and not Crash Bandicoot Z-Buffered?
 

zoukka

Member
You could travel from one end to another in the game world of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, without having to face loading screens.

Yep it was one of the most impressive games on PS1, though the environments weren't as big.

Both platforms had their weaknesses and strengths, but it's clear to me N64 felt more advanced, Goldeneye, Mario 64 and Zelda just blew the PS1 (and most PC games in many ways) away around the time they were released.
 
Here dewprism played on PS2:
https://youtu.be/9u5G7YeeM3Q

Here's Conker's textures:
https://youtu.be/gUxlKO-Ie0c

Even with no close-ups Drewprism textures are worse, try to imagine if you do a very near closeup to surfaces...

And textures aside, Conker is rendering far, far more on-screen, has animated environments/objects, realtime shadows, much more advanced lighting and particle effects and so much more.

DewPrism's environments are entirely static, more barren and the character models are basic (no moving mouths like Conker's), and the lighting is flat. Heck, that's cutscene gameplay and the characters don't even have simple circle shadows.
 
Yep it was one of the most impressive games on PS1, though the environments weren't as big.

Both platforms had their weaknesses and strengths, but it's clear to me N64 felt more advanced, Goldeneye, Mario 64 and Zelda just blew the PS1 (and most PC games in many ways) away around the time they were released.

This is how I felt and still feel. PS1 definitely does a few things better, but the N64 played host to more ambitious 3D games that wouldn't have been possible on PS1. Even a launch window game like Wave Race 64, with its water physics simulation and visuals, wouldn't have been possible on the PS1 at the end of the generation.
 
Let's give examples of open world games from the generation that was:

ArachnidPushesTheVan-GTA2.PNG

Grand Theft Auto 2 (Pretty sure this is a suped up port too)

ZELDA_OCARINA_OF_TIME.jpg

Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
 

Melchiah

Member
Yep it was one of the most impressive games on PS1, though the environments weren't as big.

Both platforms had their weaknesses and strengths, but it's clear to me N64 felt more advanced, Goldeneye, Mario 64 and Zelda just blew the PS1 (and most PC games in many ways) away around the time they were released.

Yeah, the separate areas weren't that big, but were all connected to each other, like in Souls games.

Here's the map.
It's pretty amazing, that you could travel all across that without loading pauses on the PS1. To my understanding the next area was loaded in the background, when you travelled inbetween them.
 
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