Holy friggen sweet jesus I'm nearly done with Snowpeak and this game has been consistently better than Wind Waker in almost every way. I can understand people not liking Skyward Sword for whatever technical reason, but Twilight Princess is simply better in the same mold that Wind Waker uses.
-Better dungeons
-Better bosses
-More rewarding exploration
-INFINITELY better items
I've dropped wind waker multiple times but Twilight Princess still has me hooked. What do people see in WW?
I personally didn't care about any of the NPCs which is a cardinal sin if you want to care about the world and its worldbuilding. Malo is worse than Tingle and Beedle COMBINED.
I agree in principle but not entirely. A good presentation is not window dressing. This is a visual medium and innovation and originality here is meaningful and important. And wind waker certainly gets its due credit.
Memorable characters and story are important but closer to window dressing, agreed. Where I think wind waker falls down is everywhere else. So much of its presentation colors the way people think about the rest of the game-- that it's "innovative" or "original". The game is similar to earlier zeldas in both structure and progression, and the moment to moment gameplay is almost the same as ocarina of time. I don't dock "points" for a lack of originality but I certainly do for poor execution. Wind waker is incomplete and paced poorly. The dungeons are not near substantial enough. The game starts just as slowly as TP and the initial stealth dungeon is a total misfire.
TP has its own issues. The beginning and the interludes as wolf link until midna gets the crap kicked out of her are inexcusable. The items are never really woven into the game in a long term fashion. The art style is certainly not as creative as wind waker (though its detractors have always gone overboard and said the most ridiculous shit about how it's ugly). But the core is basically the ocarina of time formula perfected. The execution from dungeon 4 to dungeon 8 is unrivaled. And there IS a lot of variety and creativity in the individual dungeons themselves.
Does Zant eventually suck? Yes. Is ganondorf a good villain? I don't know. But agreed-- window dressing.
I think wind waker is like the nascent open world movement personified. Core of the game falls down but you can explore in a super frustrating and annoying mechanical way that yields nothing but at least you were free.
\ Behold, the great Zelda community. /
My first Zelda is Breath of the Wild so I am obviously very new to this franchise, but It just seems like every single Zelda fan had their own different opinions.
I don't even know what Wind Waker is anymore, is it the worst Zelda or the best Zelda? cause that's what I been hearing all the time. Either it's a masterpiece or a worthless pile of shit.
It's even more polarizing than the Souls community. At least most people loved Demon's Souls and the original Dark Souls.
Yeah, the problem with TP is the first half is a bit restrictive and while the set pieces are also great they add to the feeling of the game 'moving you along a path', rather than you stumbling upon it yourself. However after the first plot twist the game opens up well and there's a ton to see and do -- you can stumble upon caves, use your dungeon tools to gain access to portions in the overworld, enjoy the vastness of lake hylia etc. The problem is that it doesn't reward exploration nearly as well as OoT did. Damn those rupees.I didn't really either but the game has exploration. I don't get otherwise. Like there is plenty to explore. Game is huge. Again maybe someone doesn't like it or cared for what they found but to say there's no exploration is just silliness.
There's people to bat for pretty much every 3D Zelda. None of them are bad, and it ultimately comes down to personal preference.
But MM > TP > OoT > SS > tWW is the objectively correct order.
Yeah, the problem with TP is the first half is a bit restrictive and while the set pieces are also great they add to the feeling of the game 'moving you along a path', rather than you stumbling upon it yourself. However after the first plot twist the game opens up well and there's a ton to see and do -- you can stumble upon caves, use your dungeon tools to gain access to portions in the overworld, enjoy the vastness of lake hylia etc. The problem is that it doesn't reward exploration nearly as well as OoT did. Damn those rupees.
I was writing a mini essay on how Wind Waker is better than Twilight Princess and how similar to BotW it is, but i'll leave it at that.
I was writing a mini essay on how Wind Waker is better than Twilight Princess and how similar to BotW it is, but i'll leave it at that.
I get what you mean. My biggest disappointment with TP is the way it handles NPCs. They feel so forgettable because they're not used in creative ways (outside of Malo, MALO IS GOAT OKAY?!). OoT was full of memorable NPCs that if you engaged with you'd find out a lot about their history and relationships with one another --- MM greatly expands on this. WW does it well with its Islands, especially Windfall, and SS does it too with the Skyloft. It might have been intentional due to the way the Twilight Realm affects the world but it gave the game an uncomfortable sense of loneliness. There was a ton of potential for this to happen with the Castle Town but it went to waste.One problem with Twilight Princess is that there is such a weird void in that world but not in a good way. It's like you and Midna are the only characters that really exist. There are towns but they are less populated, more static and ultimately uninteresting than in any other Zelda game, the writing is bland and uninteresting, no NPCs to be found anywhere in the overworld. This game has no character and you walk through a ghost town of a world even though it shouldn't feel like it at all.
There is no motivation to go back to places you've been before, no reason to go back to towns and explore them. It's all extremely shallow and adds to the fact that the game has absolutely nothing worth to explore even though the the world is big enough where that needs to be the case.
Oh I'm totally with you, it has a ton of exploration. I was just trying to point out why it may not feel like it to some players because the way the game is designed doesn't necessarily encourage it in the way WW does.Oh I mean it had problems but I still felt like I was on a huge journey with a grand scale and sense of wonder. Some of the locales and dungeons were incredibly wondrous to me and I never thought it didn't have a good sense of exploration. After I got out of the damn village I always felt like I was exploring and finding new things. That's exploration.
Now whether you found it "rewarding" is subjective. But it sure as hell didn't lack exploration. Same for Skyward.
Wind Waker is more charming, has a better atmosphere abd an incredible sense of adventure and exploration. Personally I loved sailing the seas in WW much more than riding around in TP. That said, while I do prefer WW overall, TP is still a great game. OoT still the GOAT though (haven't played BotW yet)
I think a good example would be A Link to the Past versus Link's Awakening. I love LOVE the NPCs in LA. It makes me involved in the world by having an emotional connection with its inhabitants. Contrast that with ALTTP where it feels more empty even though the world is much bigger and there's more content in it. There's more to explore in ALTTP, but ultimately it feels shallow. Not to say WW doesn't have these issues, but I think the idea was there. It's just the execution that lacked. TP I feel the idea wasn't great to begin with (Wolf Link) so it was doomed to fail as a compelling Zelda.I didn't really either but the game has exploration. I don't get otherwise. Like there is plenty to explore. Game is huge. Again maybe someone doesn't like it or cared for what they found but to say there's no exploration is just silliness.
I think WW beats TP in terms of art direction. The music, atmosphere, characters etc are all more interesting than TP, but TP wins in terms of gameplay and overall Zelda experience.
Yep, lots of WW DNA in BotW.I was writing a mini essay on how Wind Waker is better than Twilight Princess and how similar to BotW it is, but i'll leave it at that.
Islands are not always in the middle of squares, and it's actually very worthwhile to explore the islands. If you were like me, you had most of the triforce charts way before you needed them.The Wind Waker does a good job of tricking you into thinking it is open, but it really isn't. The vast majority of the islands are dull and unrewarding, they're always smack bang in the middle of the square meaning you don't explore so much as tick off boxes, ultimately the quest is entirely linear, and given the same-ness of the Great Sea as an environment becomes really tiresome after a few hours.
I think a good example would be A Link to the Past versus Link's Awakening. I love LOVE the NPCs in LA. It makes me involved in the world by having an emotional connection with its inhabitants.
For all Zelda sticks to tropes, the series does actually prioritise very different things from game to game. Depending on what it is exactly that draws you to the Zelda series, you're likely to find different games better or worse accordingly. Twilight Princess, for example, has superb dungeon design. When balancing for quality and quantity, to my mind it is quite clearly the best in the 3D Zelda set, and I don't think many will dispute that. Given dungeons are maybe half the content of most Zeldas to date, that's a pretty significant thing to have in your corner!
But on the other hand, Twilight Princess has a rather drab and dreary design. The Wind Waker, aesthetically, is an absolutely gorgeous game, with excellent character design and perhaps the best Zelda soundtrack to date. It also has one of the best characterisations and narrative in the series. So it can make up for a rather barren overworld and poor dungeons by cultivating a strong sense of wonder and discovery just from a visual and audio aspect.
There's people to bat for pretty much every 3D Zelda. None of them are bad, and it ultimately comes down to personal preference.
But MM > TP > OoT > SS > tWW is the objectively correct order.
I actually enjoyed OoT more than TP, but I played OoT first when I was young and it still has that sense of childhood nostalgia - it was pretty formative for me. But Twilight Princess is quite close to being Ocarina of Time 2: Ocarina Harder. It aims to hit all the same notes and outlines as Ocarina of Time but bigger and more modern. If you did play OoT first, it's a bit... bland and lacking innovation. But for someone entirely new to the series, if they go TP -> OoT, you get the reverse feeling of OoT being made rather redundant (the way my girlfriend feels). So I respect what TP does and it would probably be the Zelda game I'd first recommend to someone new to the series.
i appreciate your opinion
i disagree with it
\ Behold, the great Zelda community. /
My first Zelda is Breath of the Wild so I am obviously very new to this franchise, but It just seems like every single Zelda fan had their own different opinions.
I don't even know what Wind Waker is anymore, is it the worst Zelda or the best Zelda? cause that's what I been hearing all the time. Either it's a masterpiece or a worthless pile of shit.
It's even more polarizing than the Souls community. At least most people loved Demon's Souls and the original Dark Souls.
Wind Waker is kind of the proto Breath of the Wild, but the sailing mechanic kind of spoils the exploration. You have to be a lot more purposeful in getting off of the boat and exploring islands or even just deviating from the path to find something different. I think it's a great showcase of ideas, but execution leaves a lot to be desired. Not a bad game, but I definitely preferred the more focused experience in Twilight Princess.
How does WW have a better story, music and final boss than TP?!I like Wind Waker's world better.
Better Music, story, Link ,characters, and Final Boss.
But Dungeons and Bosses are much better in TP. I don't really care for anybody in TP, thus making it a inferior game for me
Still Great Games tho
How doesn't it have is the better question.How does WW have a better story, music and final boss than TP?!
I still consider TP's intro and the Twilight Realms to be worse than any example of padding in TWW (which, honestly, outside of the lazy Triforce Hunt is really quite overblown). Former is obnoxious, plodding exposition and the latter goes completely against Zelda's design.
TWW's unfinished quality does undermine it but I'd much rather deal with its lows than the TP/SS slogfests. Ocean FTW!
I just disagree (not with you specifically but in general) that TWW can compensate for poor everything else with strong art design. TWW has very serious issues with regular playability for me in its original release.For all Zelda sticks to tropes, the series does actually prioritise very different things from game to game. Depending on what it is exactly that draws you to the Zelda series, you're likely to find different games better or worse accordingly. Twilight Princess, for example, has superb dungeon design. When balancing for quality and quantity, to my mind it is quite clearly the best in the 3D Zelda set, and I don't think many will dispute that. Given dungeons are maybe half the content of most Zeldas to date, that's a pretty significant thing to have in your corner!
But on the other hand, Twilight Princess has a rather drab and dreary design. The Wind Waker, aesthetically, is an absolutely gorgeous game, with excellent character design and perhaps the best Zelda soundtrack to date. It also has one of the best characterisations and narrative in the series. So it can make up for a rather barren overworld and poor dungeons by cultivating a strong sense of wonder and discovery just from a visual and audio aspect.
There's people to bat for pretty much every 3D Zelda. None of them are bad, and it ultimately comes down to personal preference.
But MM > TP > OoT > SS > tWW is the objectively correct order.
I actually enjoyed OoT more than TP, but I played OoT first when I was young and it still has that sense of childhood nostalgia - it was pretty formative for me. But Twilight Princess is quite close to being Ocarina of Time 2: Ocarina Harder. It aims to hit all the same notes and outlines as Ocarina of Time but bigger and more modern. If you did play OoT first, it's a bit... bland and lacking innovation. But for someone entirely new to the series, if they go TP -> OoT, you get the reverse feeling of OoT being made rather redundant (the way my girlfriend feels). So I respect what TP does and it would probably be the Zelda game I'd first recommend to someone new to the series.
Wind Waker stands on its own as a completely unique Zelda experience. Twilight Princess is poor Ocarina of Time knockoff.