Can you do it without the pot
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Dragon Ball Super |OT5| Zenophobia
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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So do I.
Does it? Freeza was already around and running things when Gokū was born, and... that's pretty much all we know, I believe.
Sure, but I would imagine Cold and Freeza being insanely powerful individuals was a major reason for the scope of their empire at the time of the series.
Nothing was implied at all, really, when that was first mentioned. We were just given numbers about the "worth" of the inhabitants of those universes, and that was it. I'd say the mixed signals come after that.
Ah, I had forgotten about that. I don't know that I'd agree that it shouldn't be hard for him, of all people, to immediately infer what that ranking is about, but point taken.
Still not sure why they'd bring that up again this week though. Are they worried about their team being too dumb to win the tournament (a tournament that's literally said to be about power, incidentally *cough*)?
Are you sure? I thought the date was more or less derived from the fact the sealed Boo was hidden on Earth "before Earthlings could stand on their two legs" or something to that effect?
I don't remember the manga saying anything about how much time passed between the Kaiōshin being defeated and Boo being sealed...
Is it really?
EDIT: The Daizenshū timeline apparently files all that (Earthlings beginning to walk on two legs, creation and sealing of Boo) under "5 million years ago".
... Yes, which is why I didn't ask anything about that?
Before the events of the series, you mean? Sorry, I don't remember that...
Man, Shin really is shit at his job, isn't he? "Rookie" doesn't even begin to describe it, when you put it alike that. Especially if you think this has been going "for many generations".
"My stance is that I only intervene if the threat is so powerful I probably won't be able to actually do anything about it."
Well, if, as you seem to be arguing, he exterminated most of the universe's sentient species...
I know, right?
... Wut?
Quick recap:
* I pointed out that if, as you were saying, Freeza's business was responsible for the loss of most sentient species in the universe (in a relatively short amount of time), you'd think Shin would have intervened like he did for Boo.
* You replied that it was different for Boo because, among other things, Boo threatened the gods.
* I said that I didn't recall anything about Boo having threatened the gods before the events of the series (not in the manga, anyway). I always assumed Boo was destroying worlds here and there, the Kaiōshin (instead of just frolicking like idiots in their Kaiōshinkai as that went on) went "whoa, better do something about that guy" and they got their asses kicked. Which is why (and I'm going back to the beginning of that exchange... see, that is relevant!) I would expect Shin to step in if Freeza was indeed responsible for some kind of universe-scale mass extinction.
Eh sure why not it's dragon ball it wouldn't be the weirdest or dumbest thingMafuba him in a ringout?
Romars202129
Member
I know this isn't the place for dub talk, but goddamn. Sean Schemmel is killing it. Hes better than he was in the old days, and he wasn't bad then. He really brings the hype.
AlimNassor
Banned
Goku doesn't take Beerus seriously because Beerus treats him like a dog and not an equal. He also knows Beerus is too greedy to do anything like kill everyone.
And_Gignac
Member
If we can count all the aliens species that have been mentioned during DBZ's & Super's run we probably would end up over 28.
NeonZ
Member
I'm really surprised Tenshinhan might be the last one recruited, I thought it'd be 17 in order to hype him.
This was actually heavily foreshadowed in Jaco. IIRC, I can't remember the exact number, but it's stated that there are only around 40 or so patrollers for the entire universe since there are few planets with intelligent life.
Toriyama's script for RoF specifically noted that Gohan was the strongest one out of the Earth warriors there in the large grunt battle (and he's supposed to be in base there). It was also the only power comparison he even bothered noting so that seems pretty relevant.
This was actually heavily foreshadowed in Jaco. IIRC, I can't remember the exact number, but it's stated that there are only around 40 or so patrollers for the entire universe since there are few planets with intelligent life.
Toriyama's script for RoF specifically noted that Gohan was the strongest one out of the Earth warriors there in the large grunt battle (and he's supposed to be in base there). It was also the only power comparison he even bothered noting so that seems pretty relevant.
And to top it off, he has our beloved bang.
FreeMufasa
Junior Member
Anyone else been enjoying Gohan and Goku bonding these past episodes?
Unspeakable Evil
Member
Time for some Krillin hype
Yeah it's pretty nice.
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
"Definite no to Goten and Trunks, but you know who would be good? Master Roshi"
Hell yeah
Yeah, like I said above, try as they might, I think it's a bit too late to pretend power levels don't exist/matter. I completely understand that they'd want to distance themselves from that shit, but at this point...
They already did though in the last tournament. It makes perfect sense why in a ring out situation power levels aren't everything
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
That Gohan design is awesome!
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Yup even though it's set after End of Z.
roflwaffles
Member
The 28 planets idea is pretty awful and a lazy way for the writers to justify having all of U7's team as Goku and his back up dancers.
K.
He was deemed a "galactic overlord" when he enrolled the Saiyans, and that was prior to Vegeta's birth. That'd be quite the accomplishment, for a toddler, heh ?
On top of that, we have seen him at various points in time, and his appearance had never changed. Now, generally, that wouldn't qualify as proof that his aging is slower than humans necessarily ("maybe he only ages internally"), but if we consider a lot of the other examples in Dragon Ball outside of Bulma's parents (and we omit Super entirely because of inconsistent chara designs and it's late to the party), and especially the aliens, chances are, his aging is much slower.
Plus, Vegeta often points out that Saiyans age slowly because they are a warrior race. Frieza, with his incredible feats, could fit that description.
So no I don't believe for a second that Frieza has "human longevity".
You also have to consider that his dad is older and still in optimal physical condition. ("But maybe he ages internally" ....)
One does not prevent the other. I never said his ancestors were on the same level or that they had the same reach. I just said, off their behavior while facing Bardock and the aliens, they seemed used to getting what they wanted smoothly. We have seen many times how even the weakest "fighters" were able to overpower entire planets. With more power, they obviously got bigger ambition. But that doesn't mean they weren't starting their empire. That thirst for power definitely ran in the family.
(Oh also, you know, Chilled said he was the strongest around... it's entirely possible that still makes him a weakling, but he's the number 1 weakling !)
Well, goody for us we passed "the first time" we heard about it. It was a blank state, an empty canvas, it could have gone either way. Adding information to that isn't sending mixed signals. It's orienting viewers towards an answer. The information given did not contradict itself and it was never stated or implied to be about power. If you felt different about it, too bad I guess ? I've been stating this opinion for a while, and not just me, so I guess people see what they want to see. To me, the show laid it out pretty clearly.
It was literally stated to him though, he first said "who, me ?!" then he understood and said Bergamo was going too far. He got what the criticism was about.
???
Did you like, skip half the episode ? What happened to them refusing to take Goten and Trunks, stating it's precisely not all about power ?
You were playing dumb and pretending to have trouble differentiating the two cases so I felt forced to spell it out, to make it as clear as possible.
I meant he destroyed all the Kaioshins, that might be just 4 people, it was still 4/5 of that world's population
.If you meant specifically where it took place, I guess in the manga, it's not stated where they fought. But since the Shin panel was expanded in the anime, and they placed it in the kaishinkai, it can be assumed it took place there. Doesn't quite matter.
Wow you gotta be on to something ! Imagine if U7 ended up being one of the worst of all universes !!
You're assuming Shin hasn't created new worlds to make up for the ones destroyed by Buu. But since it would take millions of years before intelligent life would manifest itself, the fruit of his labor can't be witnessed yet. Or maybe he hasn't done anything and he's the absolute worst.
Also, Buu was about revenge, and about preserving the entire universe. Two birds one stone. And he could do something about it. Since he knew about the seal, he waited for the opportunity.
Buu is pure chaos and despair, evil incarnate, and an unstoppable power, that directly caused the extinction of the kaioshins.
Frieza was not a threat to the universe, Frieza wanted to rule over an empire.
Frieza and the Saiyans probably took some planets that were not inhabited in the process too.
But yes, Kaioshin is inexperienced, he doesn't know any better. He doesn't stop evil or greedy people. They have their free will. Their life span. Miracles happen.
He let things run their course. Animals eat each other too, there's goal, purpose.
Remember saiyans were out for months, if not years, while getting the planets.
So basically, Frieza was expanding his empire slowly, then had a huge growth with the Saiyans, which took down the number of intelligent worlds quite a bit, but he exterminated the saiyans shortly after that.
So that probably stopped or slowed down his growth. He still had his troops and Vegeta obviously, but it had to be slower.
But the cherry on top is Beerus not doing his job at all, so Shin was not helped here.
If Frieza went too far, Kaioshin might have stepped in. We don't know. It's also probably the first time he was confronted to something like that, so he took his time.
Frieza wasn't responsible for most of the worlds to die since Buu took care of that, he just exacerbated the problem.
Kaioshin had no idea about "mortal rankings" though, and as a somewhat immortal being, he wasn't in a rush to stop Frieza right now.
It's stated several years passed between the release of Buu and him being sealed, and he destroyed many worlds..
I'm guessing they didn't want to be specific about it, and gave a general time frame (because that's what Shin said first, before adding more details). You know it started around 5 million years ago, starting to give precise years probably would have been overkill.
It's not that simple. Frieza wasn't trying to destroy the galaxy, he was building an empire, and trying to make profit off weak planets.
On top of that, he is mortal. But I explained what I think about it above.
I know, right?
Kewl.
And I said this was irrelevant, because Buu's very existence threatens the gods and everything they stood for. Everything they ever created, that is good or evil, is being obliterated, and on top of that Buu's power is beyond their limit. It has nothing to do with Frieza where they could get rid of him instantly if things went too far (as long as he didn't train ~).
So yeah, whether Bibidi went there to kill them like in the anime, or not, and they just stepped in, it doesn't matter at all. Therefore it's irrelevant.
Also it's only "universe scale" because of the saiyans recruitment and the fact that Buu reduced the universe dramatically already.
And since Beerus had asked Frieza to get rid of planet Vegeta, maybe that's why Kaioshin didn't do anything ? (just throwing that as random possibility)
I mean, after how they handled Buu, I wouldn't trust these brats either.
Goku saw them fight, he knows they want fun over anything else. Even when all their friends had been murdered, they felt like playing volley. Too risky.
LordOfChaos
Member
There are only 28 planets in universe 7 with life on them? That struck me as odd, the galaxy always seemed far more populated. Otherwise Freizas "galactic empire" was just more than two dozen planets.
Beerus also not picking the warriors after having shat his pants multiple times at the universe wipeout also seemed out of character.
Beerus also not picking the warriors after having shat his pants multiple times at the universe wipeout also seemed out of character.
They already tried in the last tournament, yes.
Sure, they're not everything. But logically, they should still count for something. And freaking Kame Sennin, man.
I don't have anything against the character, mind you. But after so many years of fights that focused on ridiculous power level inflation, of "outdated" characters going "whoa, I used to be relevant, but I can't even follow their movements anymore"... No, sorry. Too late. You can't sell the idea that ring out rules will somehow balance that out.
1) Not exactly. Look at our galaxy, there's only life on one planet. If we had the technology and the bodies to allow migration towards those planets, we'd do it. So Frieza could have simply placed his army on those types of planets, effectively creating "controlled points" throughout the galaxy. I'm assuming they don't count those planets as "populated"... Especially now that the empire has been decimated.
2) Well I think the problem is that Beerus knows there's nobody else at this point. Remember he had to pick Monaka. What I'm surprised about is that he doesn't seem to even check the powers of the candidates at all. Hopefully he will train all 10 of them before the tournament or something... Or ask Whis to do so.
Very reasonable point.
But fuck reason because :
There are 80 fighters in the upcoming tournament. They're not all going to be on Goku's level. Roshi has some cool techniques I'm sure that he hasn't showed yet.
You know who else would give no fuck about power levels ? This guy.
But more seriously, Trunks and Goten are awful and they should not be part of the tournament. They would mess up.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Both Goten and Trunks would murder Roshi within a minute when it comes down to a regular fight. But in the big picture, they're not going to contribute much because the gap between them and Goku and Vegeta is massive anyway. They need someone who can help orchestrate and facilitate the allout brawl so that the heavy hitters like the Saiyans and buu can take care of shit while others try to help out as much. In that sense, I think taking someone with a lot of experience in various fighting situations help more than more brute force.
You aren't totally wrong but at the same ill take a wishy washy 'I've been secretly training' line if it means people like roshi can fight again.
More important than arguing over 28 planets tbh.<3 slaythe. ty for sharing
Host Samurai
Member
I thought the 28 planets thing was a mistranslation. Guess I'am wrong. It's hard to believe that the entire U7 only has 28 planets across 4 quadrant galaxies. I was under the impression that Frieza was a threat to the North Galaxy and Buu was a universal threat. This seems like lazy writing and makes the world of the series smaller.
Yes, it's long overdue. Their bonding is legit some of my favorite moments in Z.
Unless it's a translation and more than likely Toei not thinking it through it 28 planets with life at least that's how i interpreted. To give them the benefit of the doubt Shin was only counting the number of planets filled with intelligent life.
Host Samurai
Member
If that's really the case than it looks like King Kai and his 3 siblings can retire.
ShironRedshift
Member
Not just life, but sentient life. And I don't really get why people are calling it lazy. I know what they mean, but lazy isn't really the right word since there's no particular reason Universe 7 has to have any specific number of planets with intelligent life, especially after the rampages of Freeza/the Saiyan's/Buu. There only being 28 planets with sentient life left after that, on top of history of U7 we'll probably never know about, doesn't strike me as that unreasonable and is certainly not what I'd call lazy writing.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
I wonder how the "GT can still happen" folks are taking it.
Diablohead
Member
Not a bad episode, suffers from super logic in places.
Host Samurai
Member
Well how many of those planets can be considered sentient? Can you call that planet with all the giant bugs intelligent beings? No. I think 28 would still cover GT.
And now what's the point of the Galatic Patrol when there are only 28 intelligent planets? WTF are they patrolling now? Their job and King Kais seem pointless. They should have said there are a few hundred planets at the very least.
Icyflamez96
Member
rediculous
ShironRedshift
Member
Eh, now that bit is kinda annoying. But they already tried to pretty much retcon/ignore the existence of the other Kai's regardless, since no other universe seems to have that arrangement and they seem like they're trying their best to pretend Universe 7 never did. Kinda annoying and dumb, but they were doing that anyway, only 28 planets with intelligent life or otherwise.
Guess that gaffer might have a point but i will be a hypocrite to say something
Host Samurai
Member
🤔 I see what you did there.
I mean i think they are supposed to be somewhat useless considering Jaco is an elite and he is not even yamcha or roshi level
Diablohead
Member
Would have been better off saying "there's too many to check in such little time"
It is bullshit when you think about how open beerus was to blowing shit up, freiza taking over planets, the saiyans fucking over others etc
The 28 planets thing seems fine to me. First Buu did his thing, and then recently U7 had the coward that was Frieza, so scared of a legend that it's really not difficult at all to see him wiping out any planet that doesn't instantly follow him, and even if they do he still might get rid of them if he thinks they may one day become a threat to him, as we see him do with both Namek and Vegeta.
Anyways, I can't wait to see Krillin show us why he's the strongest human next week!
Anyways, I can't wait to see Krillin show us why he's the strongest human next week!
Romars202129
Member
At this point, I think we can safely say Roshi's strength has been retconned and buffed through the stratusphere. He's like 3rd form frieza strength at least by the way supers shown him.
By the way, my sub had goku saying "goten and trunks are no good". Dat savagery.
Well think about it.
Frieza didn't care about earth. So it's entirely possible there are bigger planets with far more inhabitants on them than earth.
He's selling the planets to Donald Trump like aliens. They want their villas/planets.
Beerus doesn't care when he is displeased. But he said the Saiyans were a problem and asked Frieza to get rid of them, so maybe that was the reason ?
First off, as you pointed out yourself earlier, Cold got the whole thing started for him. So there's that.
And then, Vegeta was born, what, 30 years before the Freeza fight? That's not an unnaturally long amount of time. I'll give you that Papa Cold still seemed in fairly good shape before he got killed by Trunks, but "longevity that far exceeds the common mortals"? Extrapolating quite a bit, there.
Indeed he could. Would you say Saiyans have a "longevity that far exceeds the common mortals"?
You didn't merely say he aged better or lived a bit longer: "longevity that far exceeds the common mortals". That's what I was disagreeing with. We just don't know much of anything about his species.
And then, I guess I didn't remember well: we didn't get a clarification from Gokū (who shouldn't know these things), but rather from Bergamo (who somehow knew about these things? wasn't his universe surprised to learn about their rank?)...
See above. I even saw the part where they decided to pick Kame Sennin over them and completely failed to convince me that made sense!
You're a peach.
Yeeeah, let's say that's what you meant by "he destroyed the sacred Kaioshinkai"... :þI meant he destroyed all the Kaioshins, that might be just 4 people, it was still 4/5 of that world's population
Again, it did for the argument I was making, thank you very much!
And if that filler was indeed about Boo attacking unsuspecting Kaiōshin in their Kaiōshinkai, boy do those guys suck at their job...
In your scenario, he'd exterminate most of sentient life in the universe to get there. Claiming that's not a threat simply because it's not as bad as exterminating all sentient life... Well.
You were talking about how much time passed between the defeat of the Kaiōshin and Boo being sealed though, which is a tad more specific, and I don't believe we know anything about that.
But never mind that, point is it shouldn't have been all that long anyway, because...
... and also ended around 5 million years ago.
So, to go back to where this particular discussion started, I don't believe the manga said anything about Shin being particularly busy with something for the last five million years (that is to say, since the sealing of Boo).
Well, I still think the idea that Shin was just watching Freeza fuck things up for decades, to the point where the guy had actually eliminated most sentient life in the universe, and still thinking "oh, I'm sure this will sort itself out any time now" is very silly, so I say it's relevant. There!
Oh, I'm not opposed to the "rule of awesome" card. Not at all, really. But I think it makes for a poor combo with "let's scale back to more strategic fights". Am I supposed to think less or more?! Make up your mind, show!Very reasonable point.
But fuck reason because :
Or Boo... who could have turned his opponent into a cookie, a few weeks ago, right? But I guess that wouldn't have been very satisfying...There are 80 fighters in the upcoming tournament. They're not all going to be on Goku's level. Roshi has some cool techniques I'm sure that he hasn't showed yet.
You know who else would give no fuck about power levels ? This guy.
Again, I think Dragon Ball has unfortunately written itself into a corner, when it comes to fights...
I think it's nice that "old "characters are coming back like that. There's always that. I just think it'd be a hell of a lot better if it made sense. Alas, that ship has long sailed.
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