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[SprachBrooks]

It doesn't get torn off in battle, you have to hold a button combination that doesn't happen naturally during gameplay. I didn't even know it was possible until 40 hours in (which was when I started reading complaints about it), and I'd wager most players didn't either.

What's the button combination? Just for research purposes...

 

[Ferr986]

You don't even need to make her clothes explode, just running is enough to constantly see 2B's butt.
Love the game but I can't take 2B seriously. Is ridiculous without the charm from Bayonetta.

Again, game is worth though, story and combat is good. I honestly wish it was more know for it's writing than for the "girl with the big ass".

 

[Namegoes_Here]

This, there's very little concrete evidence that out of place sexualization will help the sales of a game, especially considering the backlash and criticism that various triple A games get for including those problematic elements. Which is why I propose that games sell IN SPITE OF these elements, not because of them. Even more so as more and more gamers have alternatives and games that exclude that entirely.

Exactly. MGS and FF are big enough franchises, they don't need the free advertising, especially not that kind of attention. While there are clear examples of sex used to push products, I believe a majority of cases, for better or worse, come from designers and directors who create these types of characters for their own personal taste.

 

[Pantz]

Cindy is wearing that outfit to bring business out to the desert. Is it that weird for her to be showing her bra when there are monsters and daemons just 100 yards from their shop?

Spoiler

Her parents died at an early age and she was likely raised by Cid on the race tracks where grid girls wear similar outfits. She has a detailed backstory and they also hint at her being a lesbian.

It's simply an outfit for work just like any bikini coffee stand. She's doing it to take care of Cid and Takka and to help keep the business alive in desperate times. She doesn't deserve some of the horrible names she's been called by people on here.

 

[humansarehorses]

You haven't shown whatsoever that "sex sells games" is inherently flawed (in fact, it cannot be inherently flawed because it's an empirical claim). Nor are you providing any reason why people who hold that view have a self-defeatist mindset. None of your babbling about representation has jack to do with video game sales.

 

[Lostconfused]

So your problem is that we should be saying "sexism sells"?

 

[Dragonslayer_023]

So your problem is that we should be saying "sexism sells"?

I mean, the idea that sex = sexism is even lamer than what is posited in the OP, so hopefully not.

 

[hodgy100]

Cindy is wearing that outfit to bring business out to the desert. Is it that weird for her to be showing her bra when there are monsters and daemons just 100 yards from their shop?

Spoiler

Her parents died at an early age and she was likely raised by Cid on the race tracks where grid girls wear similar outfits. She has a detailed backstory and they also hint at her being a lesbian.

It's simply an outfit for work just like any bikini coffee stand. She's doing it to take care of Cid and Takka and to help keep the business alive in desperate times. She doesn't deserve some of the horrible names she's been called by people on here.

oh how will the feelings of a character designed by other people manage.

all those things just read as reasons to justify the character design rather than the genuine reasons for the character design.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

i dont think its sex -> sales, it's more like sex -> attention -> sales

like no one's eating hardees because some model ate a burger but that commercial airs and its like

 

[boondock18]

Violence doesn't help push games either right?

 

[Pantz]

oh how will the feelings of a character designed by other people manage.

all those things just read as reasons to justify the character design rather than the genuine reasons for the character design.

In the Lestallum the women all wear similar outfits, short shorts, and sports bras. They don't even wear underwear in Lestallum, Comparatively, Cindy is wearing underwear. In the world of FFXV, her outfit is perfectly normal. Calling her dirty names would be worse than calling dirty names to women who work at bikini coffee stands in real life.

 

[singhr1]

Overwatch wouldn't be as popular if it weren't for the waifus and husbandos.

I'd probably attribute it more to the diversity of the cast (and a Blizzard game) than a reductive description of a lineup of "waifus and husbandos."

Making a fighting game or hero shooter with a bunch of hot guys and girls doesn't make it popular.

 

[hodgy100]

In the Lestallum the women all wear similar outfits, short shorts, and sports bras. They don't even wear underwear in Lestallum, Comparatively, Cindy is wearing underwear. In the world of FFXV, her outfit is perfectly normal. Calling her dirty names would be worse than calling dirty names to women who work at bikini coffee stands in real life.

this is a thing?

though i generally turn my nose up at titillating to sell a product. I find it insulting.

 

[Venfayth]

I'd probably attribute it more to the diversity of the cast (and a Blizzard game) than a reductive description of a lineup of "waifus and husbandos."

Making a fighting game or hero shooter with a bunch of hot guys and girls doesn't make it popular.

But it helps.

 

[singhr1]

But it helps.

Of course, it's not an inherently bad thing. I would imagine most people don't want to play as an ugly lump without reason. Same thing goes for artists who do fan art.

 

[Fury451]

I don't think sex sells per se, at least not currently, but it definitely gains attention. The old Lara Croft example; her looking the way she did definitely got attention, but at the same time the game was fun and fresh- a kickass woman playing the Indiana Jones role in a full 3D action adventure. There was a lot going for it beyond the model, but that helped.

It may generate some cursory interest where none existed originally, but I don't think outside of being a horny teenager anyone would buy a game just mainly because of T&A.

Example:

BMX: XXX was a massively panned bomb.

This also reminds me of a recent thread, in which many examples were given about how both men and women in gaming are typically portrayed as far above-average in looks for maximum appeal for fulfilling the power-fantasy aspect of things. It's not inherently bad, but it's a testament to what developer's/culture assumes that people want from their characters- and it's prominent in all visual media.

 

[lastrealgameralive]

i dont think its sex -> sales, it's more like sex -> attention -> sales

Yes. The latter sequence seems to be more prevalent, but the former sequence also exists alongside it.

 

[Lostconfused]

I mean, the idea that sex = sexism is even lamer than what is posited in the OP, so hopefully not.

But, I was responding to the content of the OP.

how poorly sex is actually represented in this medium compared to sexualization, objectification, two things that at best, boil down to sexism and in the worst cases, boil down to misogyny. See the following:

The core issue with the argument that "sex," which to reiterate, is out of place sexism, is that many times characters like the above, their designs, and what they're doing has very little to do with actual sex and typically, like most sexualization in gaming, these characters are really obvious examples of sexism in a medium that has tons of issues with representation for anyone that isn't straight, white, and male.

I am not arguing that sex = sexism. Just that rather the obvious pandering used to sell things is sexism and by that argument it's sexism that sells instead of sex. I dunno ask the OP. I am still not sure what's going on here.

 

[Auto-Reply]

It still creates interest but is not the sole buying factor of a highly priced product like a videogame. Most people these days are not willing to spend 30 to 60 bucks just because you play a half naked lady, porn is free on the internet. But it's still a factor.
In the 80's and 90's that statement held more true I guess, but I can't hink of any popular examples.
There was "violence sells" too, it's what made Mortal Kombat big in the 90's... that's not as easy these days any longer. Violence is even less of a drawing factor than sex now.

 

[Clear]

Look at the balance of attractive to homely-looking people in the media compared to how it is in the real world.

That's how we know "sex sells".

The parenthetical clause is "appeal" too, as in "sex appeal sells".

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I'd argue that Fire Emblem was basically resurrected because of waifus though.

It's not an end all solution, but it happens in instances.

I'd argue that older fans of the series put WAY more focus on "waifus" than any new fan does (and I say this as Awakening was my first FE game)

 

[Quonny]

I mean, the examples in the OP quite possibly make the opposite case.

MGSV and FFXV are multi-million sellers.

ME:C, RotTR, and D2 all underperformed. AC:S sold poorly enough to make them halt the yearly franchise for a year.

I'm not saying that the sexy womenz are selling these games, but when your whole argument is 'sex doesn't sell' then you have 66% of the 'sexy womenz' games selling incredibly well and 60% of the 'not sexy womenz' games underperforming...

 

[SirPinkyNose]

May be women look like that i videogames just because the developers like girls?

 

[Shmuppers]

This thread seems to have run it's course, but at face value your OP reads like delusional tripe. Sex itself, sexual depictions of characters, sexual theming; these are always going to make your product more attractive to a general audience. Plenty of mediums abuse this principle and it's perfectly evident in everyday life.

 

[Mman235]

Yeah, it's pretty much the most empty statement possible. Just looking at the best selling franchises ever says enough (yeah this probably isn't 100% correct, but it's unlikely to be too far off): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_game_franchises

GTA and Final Fantasy are the only biggest selling franchises that have any "sex" (in the general sense) in their marketing, and even then it's mostly relatively out the way or indirect (GTA's comes more from the controversy around it than the amount there actually is in the games), and that applies to every other game there in lesser categories that has "sex" as part of it's marketing.

Spoiler

Dat Tetris and Mario rule 34 tho

 

[RM8]

But it helps.

It does? Mortal Kombat and Injustice feature rather... unattractive character models and they perform exponentially better than DOA or the recently DOA-fied SFV. Seems to me like a non factor, because fighting games are not sexual in nature. People don't watch EVO to see sex.

 

[Kinyou]

It does? Mortal Kombat and Injustice feature rather... unattractive character models and they perform exponentially better than DOA or the recently DOA-fied SFV. Seems to me like a non factor, because fighting games are not sexual in nature. People don't watch EVO to see sex.

I think if it was a non factor nether realm would stop trying to make their character models sexy. Maybe more people find them appealing than you think.

 

[RM8]

I think if it was a non factor nether realm would stop trying to make their character models sexy. Maybe more people find them appealing than you think.

But they literally did the opposite. MK9 had ninja stripers with massive volleyball breasts and v-shaped bikinis for almost all females. MKX opted for realistic proportions and less revealing clothes and it smashed sales records.

 

[Ripenen]

It has to do with what the developer is attempting to create. In fantasy worlds whether movies, books, or games, you typically find unbelievably attractive characters because fantasies are typically exaggerations. If you leave me to create a world in my head sure I'll make it awesome and that means beautiful people, beautiful scenery, cool creatures and other stuff like flying motorcycles and laser swords or whatever.

So yes sex sells, but I don't know if that's the ONLY reason that content creators lean that way. I think to some degree content creators just want to create beautiful (or cool, or badass) things, whatever those may be in their minds.

 

[Kinyou]

But they literally did the opposite. MK9 had ninja stripers with massive volleyball breasts and v-shaped bikinis for almost all females. MKX opted for realistic proportions and less revealing clothes and it smashed sales records.

But those are still sexualised characters, just in a more realistic fashion.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I mean, the examples in the OP quite possibly make the opposite case.

MGSV and FFXV are multi-million sellers.

ME:C, RotTR, and D2 all underperformed. AC:S sold poorly enough to make them halt the yearly franchise for a year.

I'm not saying that the sexy womenz are selling these games, but when your whole argument is 'sex doesn't sell' then you have 66% of the 'sexy womenz' games selling incredibly well and 60% of the 'not sexy womenz' games underperforming...

But that's his point. A game selling well and having sexy women =/= sex selling the game. I don't think any reasonable person could even begin to make the argument that those games primarily sold well because of the prevalence of those characters. Those elements probably didn't even factor into more than a small, insignificant fraction of people who bought them

 

[RM8]

But those are still sexualised characters, just in a more realistic fashion.

They didn't make them overweight or anything like that, but they actually clothed them and reversed the boob jobs. That's less sexualized than MK9.

Alternatively, SFV toned up the sexual pandering in SFV and needles to say, the bigger, bare breasts haven't made the game a roaring success. I keep seeing fighting games performing differently regardless of sexualization, I don't see DOA setting the world on fire despite strongly pushing sexualized characters.

 

[SirPinkyNose]

Nether Realm's games got popular because of the X-ray gimmick and super hero license. It helps too that their game is very easy to learn and to chain combo.

 

[Gestault]

OP is absolutely right that using "sex sells" as a way to thoughtlessly dismiss criticisms of gender representation is a transparent deflection, but I feel like their response goes so far as to be obtuse about the original phrase. The wrangling of terms to fit the shape of the premise doesn't actually bolster the general point.

Just from one sentence that tries to bring together some of the ideas:

The core issue with the argument that "sex," which to reiterate, is out of place sexism, is that many times characters like the above, their designs, and what they're doing has very little to do with actual sex...

Defining sex as "out of place sexism" is loaded, if not inaccurate to the spirit of the original phrase. Acting like sex/sexy content (in the broad sense) is inherently sexist is off-base. Acting like the "sex" part of the phrase means presenting audiences with actual sexual acts is lazy, even if there's an underlying point about how abstracted from the real thing sexist depictions can be. And to be fair to OP, these also highlight how weak "sex sells" as a response to criticisms is, if the topic is actually sexism.

A classically attractive man or woman looking at the camera in an ad, regardless of framing from their clothing, posture or the setting, can easily be sexy for the sake of marketing (and the phrase).

 

[SomTervo]

you mean only male? i think so ..yea along cover without human character , but just for the control variable for earlier hypothes. Its too detailed to be reviewed quickly hha

Yeah thanks for all the reading anyway!

 

[RM8]

Nether Realm's games got popular because of the X-ray gimmick and super hero license. It helps too that their game is very easy to learn and to chain combo.

Mortal Kombat has always enjoyed varying degrees of popularity, way before the introduction of X-ray moves, lol. You'd be correct in saying they sell in part because they're violent. But Mortal Kombat can go from this:

To this:

And not lose sales at all. Actually, improving on them (and no, I don't think less sexual designs necessarily made the game more successful, but it's clear that Mortal Kombat doesn't need massive bare breasts to get the best sales it's enjoyed since its conception).

I think you'd have to prove that sex sells fighting games, because we don't have any examples of that. DOA is super niche, and so are the anime fighters with skimpy females. While everyone complains all the time about how everyone is ugly in NR fighting games.

 

[Maebe]

I mean, the examples in the OP quite possibly make the opposite case.

MGSV and FFXV are multi-million sellers.

ME:C, RotTR, and D2 all underperformed. AC:S sold poorly enough to make them halt the yearly franchise for a year.

I'm not saying that the sexy womenz are selling these games, but when your whole argument is 'sex doesn't sell' then you have 66% of the 'sexy womenz' games selling incredibly well and 60% of the 'not sexy womenz' games underperforming...

The notion Cindy had anything to do with FFXV selling is hilarious. Quiet too. I mean, who really wasn't going to by either if those "sexy womenz" weren't in the game?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Lol. We are all so used to sex being able to sell things that stuff like Overwatch and the Tomb Raider reboot are somehow considered champions for non-sexualised female characters.

Look at OP's example of heroic females. All of them are athletic (attractive), young (attractive), with long hair and clear skin (attractive). Just because they're wearing reasonable clothes doesn't mean they haven't been designed with sex appeal in mind.

Show me a game with actual plain, unattractive, middle-aged, unfit, and overweight characters and tell me that sex appeal doesn't sell.

It seems you literally only looked at the pictures and not the actual context of the text. Btw, look up the design docs for those characters as they were 100% NOT designed with sex appeal in mind but heroic idealism.

 

[Izuna]

Of course there's entertainment that is purely sexual that sells because there's sex in it and people want to see that sexual content, no one is arguing that, but the games that try to sell with sex appeal alone are actually a fairly small niche (the Senran Kaguras and such aren't selling 50 million copies), not mainstrem mega successes.

The sexual content in porn/hentai is what sells it to that particular audience buying the sexual content, but that doesn't mean that even the same people who buy that porn go out buying regular entertainment and make those decisions based on what games show the most T&A or whatever they are into sexually. We are discussing the larger argument whether having something like Cindy in FFXV (made purely to satisfy the male gaze) actually results in any kind of meaningful increase in sales.

So you can't imagine that non-pornographic content benefits for the same reason? It's clearly not the only thing that makes a game sell, and no one said it is, but it definitely helps.

Unless you think don't remember or was around for Tomb Raider PSX, or are oblivious to how much an attractive actor can help sell on a movie.

Sex definitely sells, and it would be bizarre for it to work in every other industry from cars, cosmetics, clothes to television but not for video games.

I brought up Japan because they slap the current attractive model on any ad campaign for any product and there you go. You can put a sexy girl on a box of tissues and people would be more eager to buy it.

Or read shitty newspapers like The Sun.

It will draw attention to your product and when you're advertising or want people to experience other content, that's all you really need.

Look at the balance of attractive to homely-looking people in the media compared to how it is in the real world.

That's how we know "sex sells".

The parenthetical clause is "appeal" too, as in "sex appeal sells".

This.

 

[NormalFish]

OP, you've been pushing this claim for as long as you've been posting and I still don't see a compelling reason to believe it. Your claims are just as tenuous, if not more, than anyone else's on either side, and as "sex sells" has demonstrable truth in other industries, I'm more inclined to believe you're wrong.

Not to mention you really seem, judging from previous posts, to be pushing this based on some sort of moral agenda. Even if the portrayal of sex in gaming is typically sexist, the reduction of sex as a whole is obviously not the only solution here.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yup, short and poignant point. Crossing Eden is often fixated on flesh, or nudity, and for some reason often ignores sex and beauty as its all-encompassing tropes. Facial symmetry, height, weight, skin completion, body shape and curvature (hour glass figure has psychological merit in behavioural theory), and overall well dressed, clean and immaculate characters.

None of those characters in the OP have hour glass figures. In fact, literally all but one of them are based on digital scans.

These are all the same reasons that lead to male AND female heroines being as they are. Sure many will argue how could unfit characters do what Drake or Lara do? Yes there is truth to that. However, fitness levels is again just one part of an overall package that is sold to the consumer. This even extends to books, and its why I constantly like to bring up novels in gaming topics. To try and show some why human behaviour and marketing extends to all fantasy mediums. Not just gaming. Find me a male lead in a romance novel who isn't objectively beautiful, strong, tall, dark haired, rich, dangerous, risk-taking and so on. This goes into multiple spoken/written languages across the globe as well.

An attractive idealised and sexualized male lead fits a romance novel's context. Compared to a nude bikini sniper in a game about anti-violence that wants to move the medium forward. Or an open world RPG meant to be a "fantasy based on reality." where a large majority of the cast is wearing real clothing so why is the a Daisy Duke car wash character?

As I said some are just so fixated on skin, as in flesh, and nudity, to the point where they don't care about anything else in debating. I can empathise with the causes to strive for diversity but some really need to take a bit more time to educate themselves around why things can be as they are, and some basic psychology and marketing. Some really overt displays like those seen in MGS5 can lead to criticism that Kojima will hopefully take on board, but I regularly see some posters engage in almost religious like puritan campaigns to purge gaming of all sexualisation and any skin at all,

Fuck this. Use critical thinking skills and stop comparing people wanting to be portrayed like humans as "puritan like" or even remotely influenced by religion.

which I seriously think is borderline on shaming and is itself quite toxic behaviour. Adults can enjoy adult material without moral busy bodies trying to shame them into wearing a chastity belt. This goes for adults of both sexes. Consumers and developers.

You're not having sex with Quiet, Cidney, R.Mika, or any other digital character. Nothing they're doing has anything to do with sex. The blatant sex appeals sticks out like a sore thumb when you stick them next to the male cast.

I may seem like I have a bee in my bonnet but this topic and sexualisation at large just leads me to my despair at sex education in general

Maybe we should start we "women are people too." They aren't just here for you to fap to.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Mortal Kombat has always enjoyed varying degrees of popularity, way before the introduction of X-ray moves, lol. You'd be correct in saying they sell in part because they're violent. But Mortal Kombat can go from this:



To this:



And not lose sales at all. Actually, improving on them (and no, I don't think less sexual designs necessarily made the game more successful, but it's clear that Mortal Kombat doesn't need massive bare breasts to get the best sales it's enjoyed since its conception).

I think you'd have to prove that sex sells fighting games, because we don't have any examples of that. DOA is super niche, and so are the anime fighters with skimpy females. While everyone complains all the time about how everyone is ugly in NR fighting games.

i think that most would agree that the latter (mkx) is actually sexier than the former.

 

[Crossing Eden]

i think that most would agree that the latter (mkx) is actually sexier than the former.

Regardless of better fidelity, MKX by design has less sexualization in it Although it's still prevalent.

You don't even need to make her clothes explode, just running is enough to constantly see 2B's butt.
Love the game but I can't take 2B seriously. Is ridiculous without the charm from Bayonetta.

Again, game is worth though, story and combat is good. I honestly wish it was more know for it's writing than for the "girl with the big ass".

Blame the character designers for undermining their project.

 

[molnizzle]

Maybe we should start we "women are people too." They aren't just here for you to fap to.

Fictional characters aren't real people, though. They're part of an entertainment commodity and, in some cases, are absolutely just there for me to fap to.

 

[arturo2666]

Not really. There is very little evidence that FFXV moved more copies because Cindy is dressed in that ridiculous getup.

Unless you're on SE's marketing team I think it's fair to assume there's a lot of data you do not have access too.

And OP seems to be arguing that "sex sells" is a semantic issue, because it should be "sexism sells?" Yes, you are correct. The topic title is bait though.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Regardless of better fidelity, MKX by design has less sexualization in it Although it's still prevalent.

i would say mileena is equally sexualized, but it's just that the costume designer acquired some taste. and that results in her having more sex appeal.

 

[Lokimaru]

Cindy is one of the (many) reasons I refuse to buy FFXV.

I think sex sells to a particular type of person. My awkward 15 year old virgin self lapped up DoA. Now I find it off-puting.

Edit: Messy plurals...

But Cindy lives in the Desert. Deserts are hot, I mean really fucking hot. Why don't you want her to wear something cool in such an environment? I live in Florida, I see people dressed like that every day during the Summer, Cause it's fucking HOT!

 

[Christhor]

While sex itself might not sell a game, it does seem like it is a great way of marketing your game to gain attention. See Nier Automata and how popular it is compared to the previous games in the series. People noticed the cool and sexy designs of the main character, got their attention and then they stayed once they realised the gameplay and the story was pretty cool too. It seems like there's no better way to advertise than to create some kind of controversy related to your game.

 

[Death Penalty]

But Cindy lives in the Desert. Deserts are hot, I mean really fucking hot. Why don't you want her to wear something cool in such an environment? I live in Florida, I see people dressed like that every day during the Summer, Cause it's fucking HOT!

Nobody honestly believes Cindy dresses like that because it's hot, right?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Fictional characters aren't real people, though. They're part of an entertainment commodity and, in some cases, are absolutely just there for me to fap to.

Here's the thing, we the pursuit of photorealism, YES these characters are more and more being based on real people.

Faith is based on Faye Kingslee:

Senua a literal digital double of Melina Jurgens who bulked up for body scanning:

Evie Frye is based of Victoria Atkins:

Quiet's face is a digital double of Stephanie Joonsten:

Lara's design was heavily influenced by Camilla Ludington to the point that they pulled back and made edits to make her more like classic Lara but the influence is clear

and then we have Emily Kaldwin who's designed from scratch as the game is super stylized

The pursuit of photorealism, performance capture, and new animation standards make the blatantly sexist elements of design stick out of games even moreso than they did in the past.