Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Discussing semantics, but I wouldn't use "inherently" unless it is the case that it actually does reduce the sales.
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The argument that sex, (in most cases sexism) sells games is inherently flawed
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
- Start date
TheEndOfItAll
Neo Member
For every FFXV (the exception), there is an entire series like Dead or Alive (they spun off to a beach volleyball game ffs).
Lionel Richie
Member
Agreed. This thread feels like it's trying to debunk a concept without debunking it, and as such we fall into the "it's wrong because it's wrong" non-arguments.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
As gaming becomes more and more inclusive there's nothing saying that people won't go to other alternatives for games after being put off by juvenile sexualization.
molnizzle
Member
They can be based on real people, but they're not really people.
I agree that blatant T&A can be embarrassing (my wife was definitely judging me during my Bayonetta playthrough) but it's silly to pretend that sex doesn't sell. If we had a way of comparing these hard numbers, I imagine that there were way more people who bought Nier: Automata for the sexy protagonist than there were people who avoided it. It probably wasn't close, either.
You're projecting your values onto others here. The U.S. film industry is over 100 years old and still regularly sexualizes the female leads. The potential increased sales far outweigh the potential "boycotts."
Yeah, it's total coincidence that Lara's body and face (and her 2-3 facial revisions since 2013) all look like fully clothed Victoria's Secret models.
Your barometer for what is deemed acceptable is so laughable and biased. These threads fall apart once you move on from clothing + small chest = good, curvy woman with somewhat revealing attire = bad. Remind us again how you think black/Latina-esque curvy silhouette illustrations are strippers with the implication that this is all bad.
I said men are the primary buyers and thus games occasionally cater to men's desires. I said nothing about devs adding sexism to games for reasons... that's your argument and I don't agree with it.
You have no proof that adding or NOT adding sexual elements to a game boosts or hinders sales of said game... no, pointing to Horizon and Overwatch isn't proof that "sex doesn't sell." You're using unrelated data points to hastily assert your own conclusions and thankfully few people are buying it (but keep telling everyone "read my OP!!!!").
All I know is that sex sells in other media and likely does to some extent in games to certain demographics, same as how novels are careful about the imagery and sexuality conveyed in their covers to help generate sales (this is huge in the marketing of Amazon digital books and helping push sales). And men who were going to buy a video game anyway appreciate the titillation, so why not include it? You have NO proof that deleting Quiet from MGS would have boosted sales with the female demographic. The evidence we have so far (about the games women generally prefer to play) points to a resounding no, it would not have helped at all to delete Quiet or cover her from head to toe. You can't accept that the cheap and easy route of throwing a thick sweater, pants and boots on a fictional girl doesn't translate to meaningful female audience outreach.
It's less egregious but you can still clearly see her bust is pushed out and part of her ass made it onto to cover. You think a guy would make it onto to cover like this?! This pose is unnatural, try it for yourself. Her torso is hyperextended to do this:
But hey, look, Black Widow is covered from head to toe so it's all good! Overwatch gets a pass because of arbitrary measures of decency! There was an entire blog about this and slapping gear on a character isn't a fix. This goes back to my earlier point that you want easy, lazy changes limited to your strict, stuffy interpretations of what constitutes a decent female silhouette. It's the garbage born from sex negative feminism that incorrectly assumes all characters with busty proportions or revealing attired are BAD.
autoduelist
Member
Concepts like 'sex sells' don't exist example by example. Just because every slasher flick has a pair of boobs does not mean every slasher flick is successful. But it does put a few more butts in chairs, and if the movie is otherwise good, helps it along the road to success.
Sex does sell. There is a multi billion dollar advertising industry that knows this damn well, and no amount of idealism will change that. Every butt walking away in a TV show, every guy who comes out of a bathroom shirtless in a movie, every woman with cleavage who leans over a table to solve a case, is part of it. Watch the framing of shots in pretty much any tv shown or commercial and you'll see the adage in play.
Sex sells and it always will sell.
Just because other things sell too doesn't mean sex doesn't sell. Violence also sells. But I could list tons of successful movues without violence. That does not disprove the point. I feel like you are completely missing the point of the phrase Sex sells, and intre0reting in such a specific way that you can try to refute it. But your interpretation is not what is meant by the phrase. Just because Sex sells doesn't mean Sex always sells, or things without Sex won't sell.
I don't know why autocorrect is capitalizing Sex.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Here are the top selling games from the last three years:
2016'S best selling games:
Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare
Battlefield 1
The Division
NBA 2K17
Madden NFL 17
Grand Theft Auto V
Overwatch (no Battle.net sales)
Call of Duty: Black Ops III
FIFA 17
Final Fantasy XV
2015:
Call of Duty: Black Ops III
Madden NFL 16
Fallout 4
Star Wars: Battlefront
Grand Theft Auto V
NBA 2K16
Minecraft
Mortal Kombat X
FIFA 16
Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare
2014:
Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare
Madden NFL 15
Destiny
Grand Theft Auto V
Minecraft
Super Smash Bros.
NBA 2K15
Watch Dogs
FIFA 15
Call Of Duty: Ghosts
What evidence is that sex is selling video games based on these factors? Can't even say violence is solely selling games as besides the shooters, all of these games aren't even violent.
Not only is the film industry way better about equal sexualization, there's also a metric fuckton of high profile films released each year that don't sexualize the leads. Bad comparison. The video game industry is near constantly behind film.
None of the characters in the OP have a small chest aside from Emily Kaldwin so you have no idea what you're talking about. And remember what I said about heroic idealism. She doesn't look anymore like a Victoria Secret model anymore moreso than Evie or Faith, they have good anatomy.
That argument is bullshit, it's a self fulfilling prophecy that makes no sense in the grand scheme especially as developers have literally been doing exactly what you're saying won't happen. Look at the list above about which games are selling.
Again we should stop comparing gaming solely to other mediums based on unsourced statistics between how much crossover there is, (and considering the huge difference between gaming side and offtopic on this website, that difference is likely WAY more vast than you think).
Run that pose in a 3d program,
You're comparison literally just proved my point, the entirety of the OW cover Tracer is not sexualized, literally reduce her to a black and white silhoeete and there's a huge difference between this:
and this:
one emphasizes sexualization the other emphasizes a heroic silhouette not unlike a male hero. JUST having her butt slightly in the frame isn't sexualization. Learn how posing and line of action works.
Ascenion
Member
The problem with the thread, imo, is that OP has a valid point. OP just framed it around the concept of Sex Sells and as such it comes off as sex doesn't sell when in fact I think they would agree that it does since it almost subconsciously underlies all forms of media to an extent.
The problem is that video games rely almost exclusively on objectification bordering on male pandering (and in some cases developing into) to sexualize their products. It's not high brow, it's juvenile and base in some cases. Lara Croft and 2013 Lara Croft are sexually attractive for completely different reasons almost, which shows you can make a sexually appealing character while portraying a woman in a respectful light that focuses on the whole package and not simply T&A. I think the fact that a character like Nathan Drake still being sexy despite the intention to not is an arguement for OP's point while also proving Sex still sells.
yurinka
Member
I think sex or sexy characters isn't sexism, and that censorship and to ask developers to remove sex or sexy characters is bad. Even more considering that to include massive killings and or gore is ok (which is ok for me).
Devs should be free to do whatever they consider, in the same way people is free to buy or not their products depending if they like them or not.
And yes, sexy/pretty people sells, specially girls. This is why movies, ads (especially the ones targeted to women), tv shows, art, magazines (especially the ones targeted to women) are full of them. For some people is wrong to have them in games, when it should be ok as for people is ok to have them everywhere else. So yes, "sex sells", but obviously there are a lot of other reasons to decide if a game sells or not, in the same way that doesn't mean that the performance of a movie or ad doesn't only depend on including a sexy woman or not.
Devs should be free to do whatever they consider, in the same way people is free to buy or not their products depending if they like them or not.
And yes, sexy/pretty people sells, specially girls. This is why movies, ads (especially the ones targeted to women), tv shows, art, magazines (especially the ones targeted to women) are full of them. For some people is wrong to have them in games, when it should be ok as for people is ok to have them everywhere else. So yes, "sex sells", but obviously there are a lot of other reasons to decide if a game sells or not, in the same way that doesn't mean that the performance of a movie or ad doesn't only depend on including a sexy woman or not.
In addition to this, paintings and sculpture shown their beauty ideals of their cultures for human (especially female) naked -or almost- bodies during hundreds or thousands of years. It was ok there, but now some people gets horrified when seeing some skin in videogames. I think this people may hate art museums (you can also add photography to the list).
molnizzle
Member
You're moving goalposts here. No one is saying that a game must include sex in order to sell, or that sex is the driving factor behind the top selling games. People are saying that in a majority of cases, sex appeal helps more than it hurts in regard to sales. That's all that "sex sells" means.
It's a fine comparison. There are also a metric fuckton more films released per year than games. For the high profile, high budget releases you still see a lot of sexualization in both. The new female Power Rangers have fucking boob armor, and the latest Justice League trailer has a nice slow-mo upskirt on Wonder Woman when she's tripping a dude.
Sex sells. It's not the only thing that sells, but it does sell.
Again with this incredibly limited interpretation of sexualization. Can you move beyond assuming big tits, curves, and revealing skin is the only form of sexualization? Hollywood totally sexualizes its many female leads. The average movie star is in his late 30s to late 40s, even into his 50s... his female costar is typically a woman in her early to mid 20s with 10/10 body and face, and who could easily have a career in runway modeling.
Tomeru
Member
Cindy is not the face of FFXV. That's like saying Desert Sorceress enemy form DS2 has any bearing on the game.
Also there is a difference between asking if sex sells or if sex is the best seller.
Death Penalty
Member
Longtime fans had a lot of complaints about the lack of diversity in the main cast, but I couldn't speak for the population that bought the game at large.
Sold more than it would have had they been deformed and obese.
autoduelist
Member
Some genres of games do this, certainly. So do some genres of film. And comics. And books. Romance novels, for example, are a huge industry and are written for women. Pandering to a community is nothing new, because it helps sell to that community. It's just more noticable with stuff like anime... but try to find a Tom Cruise movie where he doesn't take his shirt off for some silly reason, etc. Sex is everywhere in media.
I have no proof of this but it probably would have sold less if it was a group of homely and decidedly uncool-looking couch potatoes.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Some people are remarkably resistant to the idea that billions of years of selective pressures led to outcomes that do not comport with their individual moral pieties. And it's not just creationists (especially around these parts).
Honestly, I find over-sexualized female characters off-putting, whereas good character design can be a selling point (though ultimately it's about the gameplay in the end).
I still think a majority of over-sexualized characterizations of female characters come from Japanese games though.
I still think a majority of over-sexualized characterizations of female characters come from Japanese games though.
My feeling is that games are escapism. They are fantasy. When devs use a sexy character it appeals to my base instinct and makes the game more enjoyable. Would I buy it if there wasn't a sexy girl in the game? Probably if the gameplay was tight. Do I enjoy it more if there is someone sexy in it? Yes I do. I don't think it's a bad thing and I think it's fine.
I have no doubts that it appealed to the Bishounen crowd in japan.
Waifus were part of it, but this underestimates the degree to which Awakening took pains to give players all kinds of options about how to play the game compared to the franchise's history of being horribly buttoned down (although i loved and preferred the Gamecube and Wii games to Awakening and Fates, i very much understand that they were made of niche appeal).
Awakening could have sold just as well if Tharja had dressed like the Wicked Witch of the West instead of like the Dragon's Crown Sorceress.
Who determines what is and isn't "oversexualized?" Crossing Eden? I grew up in a culture where the shit people around here regularly complain about is laughably tame.
TheEndOfItAll
Neo Member
The biggest difference between video games and other forms of media is that the amount of interaction between the consumer and the media is vastly larger than others. In books and TV, you're literally looking at something and thinking. That's it. So sex sells more regularly in TV because there is quite literally nothing else to do but bask in whatever visuals the media wants to sell you, and many men and some women enjoy sexual imagery, whether it be actual sex or just sexy people in sexy outfits.
In video games, though, many times the characters aren't even people (StarFox, half the races in WoW). But there is a world of other things to do an interact with, and thus you don't need those elements. Sex does absolutely sell, though, when that's what the developers want you to see as a core part of the game. It's the whole reason dating sims exist, and any game where you generate a relationship with a main heroine would fail to sell that part of the game if every heroine was some homely girl with a great personality. She has to be cute, cutesy, or sexual in some way to be seen as at all worthwhile for the player to pursue that portion of the game. Even in Mass Effect, you can sex up all these characters, that despite being aliens, are entirely humanoid with human features and facial characteristics that make them #totallyfuckablealiens. Yet, Mass Effect as a series is much more than that, as is the Witcher despite it placing actual lore to explain why every sorceress is insanely beautiful -- an excuse to sexualize women who are basically centuries-old, conniving witches.
So, I don't believe the argument that sex sells is at all flawed. It DOES sell, but it does not sell like it does in other media because other media place more importance on the visuals and evocation of feelings, whereas games do and MUST place more emphasis on the actual gameplay in order to sell better.
hemo memo
Gold Member
Name 5 games with unattractive lead character?
I can't speak for everyone, but sex certainly sells for me.
Cindy's design was a big part of why I bought FFXV at launch, and frankly her design was the best part about that whole rotten mess.
I bought Dead or Alive 5 in part because of the sexy ladies, I bought DoAX3 entirely for the sexy ladies. There are a bunch of fighting games I tried because I thought the female characters were attractive. The sex side of the Witcher series was actually the first thing that drew my attention to it when it was totally unknown. And I loved Quiet in MGS V, that fanservice certainly improved the game for me.
Anyway, there's nothing wrong with sexual objectification of fictional characters, nor is there anything wrong with making games to appeal to straight males. And personally I will continue to support devs who choose to cater to my tastes with my money. I suppose other people will continue to complain that my tastes are being catered to in a specific title rather than theirs. Such is life.
Last time I made the above point there a semantic argument ensued about the meaning of 'objectification' - I mean appreciating a person's body or beauty without regard to their other features, other people say it means dehumanising people. I just mean that it's okay to appreciate beauty or sex appeal without caring about the person you're admiring. We all do that, walking down the beach or what have you. You don't know the names of the people walking past but your eyes tell you in a nanosecond that you find them attractive. Our brains are hardwired for this kind of detached 'objectification' and I, for one, feel no need to fight it.
Cindy's design was a big part of why I bought FFXV at launch, and frankly her design was the best part about that whole rotten mess.
I bought Dead or Alive 5 in part because of the sexy ladies, I bought DoAX3 entirely for the sexy ladies. There are a bunch of fighting games I tried because I thought the female characters were attractive. The sex side of the Witcher series was actually the first thing that drew my attention to it when it was totally unknown. And I loved Quiet in MGS V, that fanservice certainly improved the game for me.
Anyway, there's nothing wrong with sexual objectification of fictional characters, nor is there anything wrong with making games to appeal to straight males. And personally I will continue to support devs who choose to cater to my tastes with my money. I suppose other people will continue to complain that my tastes are being catered to in a specific title rather than theirs. Such is life.
Last time I made the above point there a semantic argument ensued about the meaning of 'objectification' - I mean appreciating a person's body or beauty without regard to their other features, other people say it means dehumanising people. I just mean that it's okay to appreciate beauty or sex appeal without caring about the person you're admiring. We all do that, walking down the beach or what have you. You don't know the names of the people walking past but your eyes tell you in a nanosecond that you find them attractive. Our brains are hardwired for this kind of detached 'objectification' and I, for one, feel no need to fight it.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's pretty goddamn clear exactly which designs people refer to. Where did you specifically grow up that a person in an army wearing this:
and what was the context? Yea bro i'm sure you met so many people in the military wearing shit like this. And SOOOOOO many women at a car wash who dresss like this:
Developers go out of their way to humanize and make male characters fit the context to an absurd degree.
This is every thread you make. You take unrelated stats like strong sales of sports games and Nintendo games as proof that your loaded arguments are a fact of life. You haven't proven anything ITT.
molnizzle
Member
It's pretty goddamn clear exactly which designs people refer to. Where did you specifically grow up that a person in an army wearing this:
and what was the context? Yea bro i'm sure you met so many people in the military wearing shit like this. And SOOOOOO many women at a car wash who dresss like this:
Both look like pretty standard Halloween costumes to me.
I think sex appeal CAN still be a factor, it just doesn't move statistically significant numbers in gaming anymore, but thinking on my personal experience, sex appeal has been a factor, it's the reason why i gave a HARD PASS on the Bayonetta series, i can't stand her design, makes me wary of the game.
Ascenion
Member
And SOOOOOO many women at a car wash who dresss like this:
First of all Cindy is a mechanic not a car washer. That's what makes it ridiculous. Car washing in the summer? Her attire isn't that ridiculous anymore. Jean shorts and tank top are basically what I'd expect to see. The jacket forcing her cleavage in your face doesn't fit anywhere but the rest is fine for a car wash. A mechanic simply would not show that much skin.
Again, with the strawmen and loaded arguments. I didn't say women literally dress like that in the military, so stop putting words in others' mouths. I'm saying I come from a place where this sort of thing is inconsequential enough not to act like it's destroying the fabric of society. It's just a silly half-naked character in an absurd action game.
Developers go out of their way to write games around the vast majority who buy their products. Shocking.
P.S. Your Overwatch observations are still flimsy. You're extrapolating what you think the artists' and designers' intentions were when laying out that cover while turning a blind eye to the fact that Tracer is very attractive and sexualized, because it's one of your personal bastions of "acceptable" character design. Regardless of what you think the character represents, I think the marketing intent of the cover is clear as day.
I think it'd be interesting if devs made a game with overly sexualised males in the same vain. Obviously sex sells but would it sell to the same extent to female gamers?It's pretty goddamn clear exactly which designs people refer to. Where did you specifically grow up that a person in an army wearing this:
and what was the context? Yea bro i'm sure you met so many people in the military wearing shit like this. And SOOOOOO many women at a car wash who dresss like this:
Developers go out of their way to humanize and make male characters fit the context to an absurd degree.
Lionel Richie
Member
Yeah, reality isn't shaped by our individual moral compass and overall beliefs. Applying that as evidence is really counterproductive in any discussion when people have incentive to go along with it (like going to hell if you question it).
Mihos
Gold Member
All GTAs
molnizzle
Member
Probably not as well as the it does to straight male gamers.
Gay male gamers though? If pornography trends are any indication, more beefcake sexualization could certainly help increase sales.
For sure.
FFXV and MGSV probably sold more copies with them than they would have without them, though. That's the point.
Death Penalty
Member
This is a fair point, and I wish it had been more what the OP had focused on.
Subjective. I love both of those designs, genuinely, and have done since they were revealed.
Legitimately two of my favourite character designs of this generation so far.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yea it's almost like out of place sexist character design isn't making game sales go through the roof or something. It's almost like big IPs like metal gear and final fantasy will sell regardless of characters like Cidney and Quiet, and that due to more women being involved in the industry, (and media in general), that devs are taking notice and are allowed to push characters designs like Evie Frye and Ellie over Quiet and Cidney without worrying about losing insecure male gamers who apparently can't handle or fathom looking at non sexualized depictions of women consider "men are the audience" is so often raised as a point. And certainly, catering only to male tastes certainly has not had any specific, negative, effects on the perception of women in this industry that certainly don't still prevail to this day due to people still acting like it's a boy's club.
They spent more time visually on her washing the car than actually fixing it or doing anything remotely resembling a mechanic. And no, jean shorts are not what a mechanic would wear, do you know anything about mechanics?
THAT'S THE POINT. People don't dress like Quiet in the military, they sure put a lot of effort into making Venom Snake look like he's appropriately dressed for the military especially for metal gear standards.
Actually name a place. Because you don't seem to get the fact that "I see women like this everyday hurrr" is a pointless anecdote considering that
a)they're real women with actual agency in how they look and dress
b)their outfit likely fits the context of what they're doing, i.e. Quiet looks out of place in a game about nukes, child soldiers, and the military, but pointless leggings and gloves aside, wouldn't be egregious at all for a beach
c)it's still an anecdote
Again, what's the indication that the vast majority of men even
a)prefer sexualization
b)are cavemen that can't fathom the thought of contextually appropriate designs for women?
Your comparisons are flimsy because you don't understand line of action or how silhouettes work.
ME has a huge base of women and that's partly because the men are sexualized too.
Most video game protagonists aren't ugly, because people generally don't want to be ugly.
The FFXV protagonists look like a boy band - people whose commercial appeal is all about being (unthreateningly) sexy.
I think the thing with objectification is:
a) Sex is intentional. It has an object. Sex is predicated on there being sex objects.
b) Objectification is reducing a character or person purely to that sex object, i.e. identifying their person entirely with them as a sex object.
c) The perniciousness of b) makes some people wary of or refuse to acknowledge a). It also makes any obvious reveling in people as a) look like b), which it often indeed is but needn't be.
I also think some people need a little more context for sexual titillation. Personally, there are parts of the body I like to see. I like to see them framed in certain ways by clothing, posture, behavior, etc. But it doesn't really do much for me without there being a story, a character involved that is attractive to me. Heck, even modeling tries to set the stage and the context, in which you come across hot person in cute/sexy/fashionable clothes. So things get messy because often there are non-purely sex object characteristics framing many cases that smack of objectification.
IDK. I don't tend to like the hardcore obvious examples thrown around in this thread too much personally, but I also think I need to take a hard look at what I do like.
Sora the Cat
Member
Don't know anyone who buys a game because a character in it looks "Sexy", I still think that's just a dumb myth.
I largely agree with the sentiments in the OP. The problem that a lot of people seem to have is that the issue isn't phrased properly. When people say "sex sells", what they really mean is "sexual objectification sells". And the latter is true only to a limited degree: there are some games (and other products) that can benefit from sexual objectification, but there are a ton which are not going to benefit in a meaningful way. Generally speaking, if a game has a lot of other merits, it would be better off leaving out the objectification.
I agree with a lot of what you've said, but the way I reconcile a) with b) is by simply not accepting that objectification is a bad thing in isolated moments. I can think someone is an awesome person worthy of respect in one moment and just be interested in their body the next. I can sexually fantasize over someone I've never met in one moment and be open-minded to their personality when eventually meeting them in the next.
And as for your point about needing context and story, I know a lot of people are like that but I'm not. I just need to see the right shapes and curves and my brain triggers the appropriate happy 'I like this' response.
Death Penalty
Member
I almost wholly agree with you, however the main issue I can see with this is that a lot of these female characters aren't sexualized in isolated moments. It's in a very real way the full depth of their character, as I believe is the case with Cindy and Quiet who seem to exist wholly to titillate. When Cindy in particular comes from a game without a lot of good female representation, I can see why this would make someone feel uncomfortable, disappointed or even angry.
I'm not saying it's wrong to titillate or even to have a character who exists only to titillate but simply that there are some valid complaints to be had here.
It's almost like on the opposite end you have no proof that a total lack of sexy game characters hinders games sales. Oh no, wait, it's exactly like that. Stop drawing flimsy conclusions based on zero evidence, based on your personal biases for how game characters "should" be designed. It's so annoying that you want your puritanical, conservative design values to spread far and wide to the industry. This has nothing to do with "insecure male gamers" and everything to do with the fact that not all of us, male or female, were raised in conservative households like you clearly were.
Your links of online harassment and the depictions of sexy images in games have no direct relation to the discussion of game sales. This is what I was saying earlier. You draw these ridiculous conclusions without realizing the material you're citing doesn't actually support what you're saying. Correlation isnot causation. That simple concept escapes you and we get threads like this one.
I did not say this. You did, because you can't help attributing loaded words and thoughts. This is why hardly anyone respects your arguments. Just accept we're not all as conservative as you.
Again with the condescension. As per my professional background, I have a pretty strong understanding of the intent behind that cover. I've worked in marketing my entire life. I have a background in art. I'm not obsessed with the pure artistic intent behind Tracer. What I do know is how and why she was used, and that she was still created to be as cute as possible and her poses convey some sexualism to a male dominant shooter demographic.