Coincidentally Sonic Heroes is a GREAT example of Sega listening to criticism, not understanding the criticism at all, and making something nobody wanted.Well i'm gonna take this sentiment a step further and say that this trend of shooting the innovator did not start with Sonic Unleashed.
It started with Sonic Heroes.Not only is every character basically Sonic, if you're good at the game you almost never have to switch off of him.
- We only want to play action stages! ---> The entire game is action stages
- What about sonic's friends!? ---> You play 3 of them simultaneously
- What happened to their abilities?! --> 3 on-the-fly moveset swaps during gameplay
People talk about momentum based gameplay in 3D? That was Sonic Heroes.
You nitwits ruined it for everyone years ago, now we're stuck with a game that can't even decide what it wants to build off of anymore.
Fair enough. I definitely remember a "finally they're getting rid of dumb additions to Sonic" sentiment before Sonic 4 came out and it turned out to be super bad. The gameplay of all those 3D sidescroller Sonic games look the same. With the same highs (great runs at high speed) and the same lows (stops, bad platforming). For me the lows greatly outweigh the highs.
Mania also looks the same to me gameplay wise. 🤷*♀️
People talk about momentum based gameplay in 3D? That was Sonic Heroes.
You nitwits ruined it for everyone years ago, now we're stuck with a game that can't even decide what it wants to build off of anymore.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. What part of Sonic Heroes has a more reasonable application of momentum on the characters' movement than either SA1 or SA2 did?
Sonic Team makes games in response to fan feedback in the same way Nintendo made Breath of the Wild as a response to fan feedback about Skyward Sword. Communication is a two-way street; a developer is blind to the desires of their fans and thus can't design a game around any of it until their fans actually tell them what they want. Otherwise, Breath of the Wild as we know it would not have existed. Subsequently, Colors and Gens are in part the result fan feedback- shitty fan feedback, but feedback nonetheless.
True, it's not all the fans' fault these games are kind of middle of the road. But since everyone blew a load over "middle of the road" game design, I don't give them a pass either.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. What part of Sonic Heroes has a more reasonable application of momentum on the characters' movement than either SA1 or SA2 did?
This looks boring. Why try coasting on the nostalgia, for the last 3 games they have been trying to prove they can do "classic sonic gameplay", but that gameplay is pretty... Stale.
Who's doing this now though? Even when Generations first came out, the fans were the ones that most critically dissected the flaws with the gameplay and structural design of that game despite it being fairly well received. Colors was literally the first mainline game that didn't come with some alternate playstyle nobody asked for, hence it being very well received at launch. It's not hard to see why Colors was heralded when it came out and looked back on less favorably when its formula wasn't improved upon. Same for Generations.
I completely disagree with the assertion that the fans are to blame, and that's speaking as someone who agrees with you otherwise. I don't care for Colors, I think Generations is just decent, and I've been waiting for years now for a game that iterates upon what worked with Sonic Adventure and Unleashed without being held back by some massive caveat. I'm not upset at the fans for hating on Unleashed, I'm really frustrated that Sonic Team was so close to making a game that would have had massive appeal and absolutely save the franchise, but fucked it up with a badly implemented idea and numerous niggling design flaws that made the game a chore to play for people who didn't really want to enjoy it.
Mania proves that there are people with some authority at SEGA that are capable of producing a game that people actually want. I'm curious to see how that project got started, and I hope if it sells well that whichever branch got that off the ground (I'm assuming SoA) has a little bit more sway in dictating the direction of the franchise in the future. Not because I want a bunch of Classic Sonic games, but because those people clearly are more in tune with what the audience wants.
They tried and it got worse with boom.I honestly cant believe Sega still haven't axed Sonic Team and got a different developer to do a mainline Sonic game. Like, how many times do Sonic Team have to fuck up?
Most people, even in fan circles, were completely enamored with Generations, and most of the critique we were seeing before release was batted away with calls of "wait and see" or "but Sky Sanctuary is in the game!"
Both Colors and Gens were beset by hype in the public and fanbase that obfuscated a lot of the flaws people are complaining about now with Forces simply because they didn't come with a caveat, as if the lack of a catch would make up for the glaring mediocrity of their base mechanics, especially in comparison to other platformers at the time like Rayman Origins or Donkey Kong Returns. That in itself isn't Sonic Team's fault. It's understandable why it happened, but empathy doesn't negate responsibility. People getting unreasonably swept up in hype is of their own doing. And if that hype colors their critique and Sonic Team listens to it under that assumption that people are saying this even after being critical, well, that's prime reason to tell the fan base they fucked up in letting mediocrity slide.
Thats the problem with these boost games, they start becoming and looking too similar. Been there done that.
Sonic need something new and fresh. Mind you im buying both this and mania.
They tried and it got worse with boom.
I honestly dont know who they can have make a good sonic game.
Yeah. You're supposed to jump before the spring. You're punished for notnjunping by killing your momentum. That's usually how sonic games work.Looks like shields in monitors are returning
Also, why are the invisible springs from Lost World returning?
Sonic could've easilly made that jump but the game decided to put a spring there, and it's not even like you can use it to move along smoothly, your speed stops dead in its tracks when you touch the thing
the history of sonic is a long string of games with good fundamental ideas that are absolutely destroyed by a hundred more incredibly stupid ones
Yeah. You're supposed to jump before the spring. You're punished for notnjunping by killing your momentum. That's usually how sonic games work.
Yeah. You're supposed to jump before the spring. You're punished for notnjunping by killing your momentum. That's usually how sonic games work.
The spring is an attempt at comprise between the frustration of coming to a dead stop and rewarding players who are replaying the level or have fast enough reflexes to jump on time.But your momentum is already killed by running into the wall. The spring is absolutely unnecessary.
The spring is an attempt at comprise between the frustration of coming to a dead stop and rewarding players who are replaying the level or have fast enough reflexes to jump on time.
You still come to a dead stop when you hit a spring because it forces you to go straight up and only allowing you to move at the peak. It takes longer than just hitting the wall and jumping up.
In all the ways that SA1/2 did and then some. But most importantly, the "momentum" to be conserved in Sonic Heroes is more about forward movement and progression. Where most players complain about having to fight alot, or switch alot, losing speed, ect ect...when you're good, you just learn how to use the physics/characters to skip sections entirely.
1) actual momentum is conserved when switching characters, which allows for neat tricks.
2) You can skip parts of the map by using momentum/terrain and jumping...which is significant in Heroes because the levels are quite long. Basically the same thing you can do in the classic games except in 3D.
3) Killing enemies / getting boxes rewards you with levels, which for all characters reduces the amount of time you need to spend fighting. (For instance, Lv3 Sonic no longer needs to use Sonic Tornado for flipping enemies or gimmicks, he only needs to homing attack them). Controling which characters get levels lets you finish the stages faster.
4) Dying resets you back to level 0, pretty much ensuring the rest of the run will take longer than otherwise because you lose abilities...a loss of momentum
5) When you're good at switching correctly, where most players would have to stop and fight enemies, good players are able to either kill them all immediately, or skip the section entirely with a well placed jump or boost.
I think this guy's runthrough of the Power Plant is a good example. Take notice of whom he gives the levelups to and why. Take notice of how much time he actually spends fighting the "damage sponge" enemies.
Even the rail stages, rail section skipping aside, can let you use clever tricks and knowledge of the stage to avoid staying still for too long. This hasn't really been a thing since SA2.
Basically, Heroes gives the player more oppertunities to complete the levels faster with skill. I think it was the last Sonic game that actually rewards you for mastery instead of just memorization, which is basically what current Modern gameplay is.
In all the ways that SA1/2 did and then some. But most importantly, the "momentum" to be conserved in Sonic Heroes is more about forward movement and progression. Where most players complain about having to fight alot, or switch alot, losing speed, ect ect...when you're good, you just learn how to use the physics/characters to skip sections entirely.
1) actual momentum is conserved when switching characters, which allows for neat tricks.
2) You can skip parts of the map by using momentum/terrain and jumping...which is significant in Heroes because the levels are quite long. Basically the same thing you can do in the classic games except in 3D.
3) Killing enemies / getting boxes rewards you with levels, which for all characters reduces the amount of time you need to spend fighting. (For instance, Lv3 Sonic no longer needs to use Sonic Tornado for flipping enemies or gimmicks, he only needs to homing attack them). Controling which characters get levels lets you finish the stages faster.
4) Dying resets you back to level 0, pretty much ensuring the rest of the run will take longer than otherwise because you lose abilities...a loss of momentum
5) When you're good at switching correctly, where most players would have to stop and fight enemies, good players are able to either kill them all immediately, or skip the section entirely with a well placed jump or boost.
I think this guy's runthrough of the Power Plant is a good example. Take notice of whom he gives the levelups to and why. Take notice of how much time he actually spends fighting the "damage sponge" enemies.
Basically, Heroes gives the player more oppertunities to complete the levels faster with skill. I think it was the last Sonic game that actually rewards you for mastery instead of just memorization, which is basically what current Modern gameplay is.
They tried and it got worse with boom.
I honestly dont know who they can have make a good sonic game.
Angel Island and Mushroom Hill are a bazillion times betterLook Sega, I want Sonic to succeed. I'm gonna buy this game. Stop with the Green Hill Zone. It's not as iconic as you think. Just stop.
Angel Island and Mushroom Hill are a bazillion times better
Thats the problem with these boost games, they start becoming and looking too similar. Been there done that.
Sonic need something new and fresh. Mind you im buying both this and mania.
Thats the problem with these boost games, they start becoming and looking too similar. Been there done that.
Sonic need something new and fresh. Mind you im buying both this and mania.