I Wanna Be The Guy
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Being a first level doesn't excuse bad design. In fact a first level should make a good impression and set the tone for the rest of the game.
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Sonic Forces - Green Hill Gameplay
- Thread starter MrBadger
- Start date
Yes it does.
Perhaps not if you didn't read my post and didn't realize I meant the boost-focused gameplay vs. the momentum-based gameplay of classic Sonic in Generations.
But that's what I meant. And that's why this totally looks like (the bad) Sonic 4.
A lot of people don't seem to get that the 'feel' of a Sonic game is really what it comes down to. It doesn't matter if it "Looks like Sonic". Every Sonic game looks like Sonic. But the physics and how you gather speed is crucial to the feel. And it's why the DIMPS games don't "feel like" the classic games.
But it's not because the classic games are better because they're classic. It's because the classic games have genuine effort and polish in their gameplay and level design. That's what Mania has. It has heart and soul poured into it. And you can tell.
If the first level is bad, what hope is there for those that follow?
nkarafo
Member
Sonic Generations also had more verticallity, more paths, more slopes, less straight/boxy platforms, etc. Forces design looks as generic as it can get.
Maybe Sonic fans dont want Green Hill again with worse music?
No seriously what is this music.
LinkSlayer64
Member
I'd say those invisible springs are more of a hindrance, maybe as an attempt to punish you for being dumb and not jumping when you see you need to jump by slowing you down, I dunno, that's just how I saw them.
what messenger keep pandering to nostalgia fans? This game is almost guaranteed to sell better the mania can ever hope.
Mind you i'm getting both games
You see folks? Take a minute to think and it becomes clear.. this guy gets it..
Babymario26
Member
Seriously though from the first level you're suppose to get the feel for the game... the only thing they fucked up on is the music the visuals look great were you guys looking at the 720 60fps video?
Jo Shishido's Cheeks
Member
Probably should've just added new zones to Generations 
eXistor
Member
Looks like the same shit rehashed...again. Man, when are we gonna get a truly great and original Sonic game again? It's only been what, 23 years? I certainly wouldn't count Generations or Colors as great, not even remotely tbh, those games are complete jank.
I guess Sonic Mania is gonna be good, but that's mostly just remixed old levels again. I want a game like that, but 100% new and original. Maybe if Mania does well, we'll get one like that.
I guess Sonic Mania is gonna be good, but that's mostly just remixed old levels again. I want a game like that, but 100% new and original. Maybe if Mania does well, we'll get one like that.
MegamanXZero
Member
Yeah,.. I'll play Sonic Mania.
TheDinoman
Member
Again, Sonic Mania.
The Sum of Zero
Member
Octavianus
Banned
I like the visuals and unlike some I don't have an issue with them using Green Hill Zone again.
Unfortunately that's where my praise ends. The level design looks completely uninspired and the music is god awful.
Unfortunately that's where my praise ends. The level design looks completely uninspired and the music is god awful.
Yeah I'm giving it until E3.
That Classic Sonic level design is fast paced Lost World level design though, and that shit isn't that good at all lol. They have a lot of convincing to do with this game tbh.
I agree... It feels like there's missing animations. I recall when Sonic would hit a spring that would thrust him forwards in the air he would ride with it, arms behind his back, head up. Here he just slow runs in the air. He hits springs and there's a temporary speed boost then he slows down. Sonic would hit speed boosts and run so fast he would almost leave the screen. And there was always a sense he could go that little bit faster. Here... Looks like he has a speed limiter attached...
Also.. Who thought it was a great idea to remind everyone about Episode 4? Why include music from a strongly disliked sequel?
So far I'm disappointed. And I was optimistic about this latest entry, that they had learned lessons.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
Bleh. Really glad we're getting Mania because Sonic Team still doesn't know how to do classic Sonic justice. Regardless Mania would become a thing or no, they should had just focused on making a game based solely around boost/current Sonic.
Everything just looks like some sort of bad attempt to fudge 2D gameplay from Lost World, Sonic 4, and Generations together, and I'm not just referring to the artstyle. The level design looks large and non-linear in structure like in Generations...but it also has Lost World's mostly flat terrain, invisible/automated springs, and heavy focus on precision platforming,, and has dash panels and scripts out the wazoo like in Sonic 4. Physics at least in rolling and the spindash look like Generations used as a base...but the aerial movement when he jumps (especially when he rebounds after jumping on top of enemies) looks straight out of Lost World too, its really rigid and stiff, like its lacking in horizontal momentum. Though when he hits badniks from the side, he just phases through them for some reason. As for the music....the Sonic 4 comparisons are pretty spot on. Sounds like a few cat / duck synths away from feeling right in place with Sylvania Castle.
It graphically does looks more lively than what we saw in the Nintendo Direct footage, and it looks like they finally got a spindash that isn't underpowered like Sonic 4 or overpowered like Generations...that's all of the positives I got.
And anyone who's seriously arguing Sonic's physics weren't/aren't important is either arguing in bad faith or has no clue what they're talking about. Physics from the original Genesis games were and still are part and parcel of what made Sonic (through his rolling /bouncing abilities) stand out from other platformers back then; even today you still have several games used fixed jumps, there are few if any non-Sonic titles that allow the player to use momentum to play around with the environment or just blaze through levels the way those games do.
If you want to argue that these physics are fine for the game, that's one thing; but to actually claim they were never important to Sonic gameplay is complete arrogance.
No disagreements here.
Everything just looks like some sort of bad attempt to fudge 2D gameplay from Lost World, Sonic 4, and Generations together, and I'm not just referring to the artstyle. The level design looks large and non-linear in structure like in Generations...but it also has Lost World's mostly flat terrain, invisible/automated springs, and heavy focus on precision platforming,, and has dash panels and scripts out the wazoo like in Sonic 4. Physics at least in rolling and the spindash look like Generations used as a base...but the aerial movement when he jumps (especially when he rebounds after jumping on top of enemies) looks straight out of Lost World too, its really rigid and stiff, like its lacking in horizontal momentum. Though when he hits badniks from the side, he just phases through them for some reason. As for the music....the Sonic 4 comparisons are pretty spot on. Sounds like a few cat / duck synths away from feeling right in place with Sylvania Castle.
It graphically does looks more lively than what we saw in the Nintendo Direct footage, and it looks like they finally got a spindash that isn't underpowered like Sonic 4 or overpowered like Generations...that's all of the positives I got.
And anyone who's seriously arguing Sonic's physics weren't/aren't important is either arguing in bad faith or has no clue what they're talking about. Physics from the original Genesis games were and still are part and parcel of what made Sonic (through his rolling /bouncing abilities) stand out from other platformers back then; even today you still have several games used fixed jumps, there are few if any non-Sonic titles that allow the player to use momentum to play around with the environment or just blaze through levels the way those games do.
If you want to argue that these physics are fine for the game, that's one thing; but to actually claim they were never important to Sonic gameplay is complete arrogance.
No disagreements here.
LordKasual
Banned
yeah still doesn't look anything like Sonic 4
"gathering speed" has been relatively trivial in sonic games ever since sonic 2 introduced the spindash
and seeing as the person playing the demo in this video rarely ever jumps or rolls unless forced to and doesn't seem to be making any attempt to speedrun the stage, i really don't see how you're making objective statements on this game's "momentum based gameplay"
especially since this is the first time that seemingly accurate momentum has been displayed in a 2.5D sonic game whle running AND rolling, there are slopes and loops where sonic very clearly gains, loses, and maintains speed
you're looking at act 1-1 played by a PR demo person, not a sonic fanatic who has spent years around communities that have reverse engineered the mechanics of the game down to the tile programming
Edit:
And at the absolute pinnicle of classic sonic gameplay, momentum is more a matter of knowing when to spindash and jump rather than all this other stuff. I understand you love the classics, but it sounds like you're gassing them up just a bit too much.
EDIT AGAIN:
And classic sonic in Generations didn't even have momentum based gameplay, rolling was trash and most of the slopes felt scripted
Chubzdoomer
Banned
Looks like nothing more than a rehash of Generations. Can't say I'm impressed.
Originally the games were about two 'sections':
-Sections where you'd try to go as fast as possible and maintain your momentum while collecting as many rings as you could to get a 1up or enter a bonus level, AND
-Sections where you'd slow down and have to do some precision platforming mixed with enemy encounters.
That was what the first four 3d games were all about. Since then, I completely agree with your criticism of the game design - it's aimless and unfocused. And I also agree that the core idea of it suits a runner game.
Totally agree. Rayman nailed it in a way Sonic never did. Origins and Legends are fantastic games with a coherent design based on tight player controls that modern Sonic games could only wish for.
This is a super example of why the game design is so poor. Well done.
Baleoce
Member
Absolutely spot on.
Seriously what the heck is going on with the movement in that trailer? There's no momentum coming out of the tunnels and from the speed boosts, his running just slows like Sonic can't handle the speed or something. It just looks awkward. I know it's just a short look but there was absolutely nothing there that looked better than Generations, and the level design looked worse.
themagicalkitsune
Member
???
Seriously what is different about Emerald Hill? Different checkered patterns on the ground?
I can't comprehend this "oh not Green Hill again, better change it up with Green Hill" notion
BumblebeeCody
Member
Need!
Chubzdoomer
Banned
It perfect symbolizes Sonic as a whole ... stuck in the past.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
I wish Sonic was stuck in the past. The games in the past were great.
Sonic mania however is stuck in the past and it looks fantastic.
To Far Away Times
Member
Thank you. Sega, please build a proper physics system for your game before building levels and stuff. This is just haphazard game design from the ground up.
I noticed Sonic Mania doesn't have "cheats" like this. It also looks 1,000 times better.
LordKasual
Banned
it's just a nostalgia goggle malfunction
IronicSonic
Member
Sonic is not an autorunner.
Speed gives you access to a higher, more rewarding paths while exploring levels. Also high speed sections often hides other paths aswell. At least 2D Classic Sonic. Also, almost every badniks in Sonic games can be destroyed while rolling, without losing speed.
2D Classic Sonic never was about high speed obstacles courses.
TheDinoman
Member
You know how in Portal, it's fun to build up momentum by hurling yourself into a bunch of portals over and over?
Well, imagine going through a portal and then instantly going super extremely fast with no build up. That's what Sonic has become.
Well, imagine going through a portal and then instantly going super extremely fast with no build up. That's what Sonic has become.
LordKasual
Banned
platforming was way more important to reaching high sections than speed ever was
the amount of times you roll off a slope into a high point on the map is relatively low in sonic games, in fact i'm having a hard time even thinking of one that isn't in like the first stage
To Far Away Times
Member
Sonic 2 has a pretty cool one towards the beginning in Chemical Plant.
Liamario
Banned
The music is awful. It sounds like a broken watch alarm from the mid nineties.
That the gameplay looks bad, like every Sonic game? That the music sounds bad? Like every Sonic game?
I've played my fair share of Sonic games over the years. Including Generations, which is said to be one of the better ones. I wouldn't call myself aggressively ignorant. I'm just trying to see what you fans see in this and other than nostalgia I can't explain why people still care about it. I remember all the hype about Sonic 4 and how that tuned out too.
I don't mind you liking Sonic, I just don't understand what Sonic fans even want at this point. All of this looks the same. I can't be the only one.
They're kinda all over the place in Sonic 3.
Anyway, does my heart good to see people on GAF being critical of Gens' version of Classic Sonic. Maybe we can finally purge this completely useless and arbitrary gameplay split from the ST games and get to work on a single solitary gameplay style that incorporates a few classic elements back into an actual 3D environment, like the good ol' days.
Maybe.
Sonic Mania has actually shown more unique ideas than Forces has at this point to, ironically.
It's really starting to feel like the main Sonic Team doesn't really have any new ideas to bring Sonic's gameplay forward in 3D. Modern Sonic + Clasdic Sonic was fine enough for an anniversary title, but the only thing they have now is the same + a third character? Hopefully that third character shows some fresh new ideas, but it seems that Sonic Team proper has just kind of coasted on the basics they established in Unleashed. Hell, Colors added some interesting additions to the formula, but that was the storyboard team.
I'm actually kinda amazed they haven't managed to build a proper physics system after all this time. I feel like the lack thereof has been a significant complaint for years now.
Those moments of speed lack any satisfaction when its just scripting accomplishing it for you.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
Sonic 2's introduction of the spindash does make gaining momentum/speed more easy than finding a spot to roll, but I'd argue it's nowhere near the gameplay-refocusing tool as you're making it out to be.
Sonic 2's levels are still designed around the core mechanics, the game is still entirely playable without using the spindash. It's true the spin dash can be used to get a boost in speed without building momentum, but it's not like the levels and the move are designed so that you can just spam it anywhere and clear levels solely by using the move without any risk. The move also actually holds contrast to its design, you also can't just initiate the spin dash when you're running/rolling any time; you have to actually stop and charge it for a bit before you can get decent speed with it.
Same applies to Sonic 3&K for the most part. There are some obstacles in some paths where you do need to use the move to proceed (like the breakable walls in Angel Island), but they're thankfully very rare moments throughout the game. Sonic CD as well but that's admittedly a different kettle of fish due to how the level design is built and the different physics/spindash in that game (prior to the Taxman remake altered an alternative similar to the later games).
If you want to criticize a Sonic game where the spindash does apply as overpowered or rewriting the game's gameplay focus, that honor goes to Generations. You can just start the spindash regardless if you're running or rolling, and the move is strong enough you can use it to literally leap over levels; and the rolling physics aren't good enough to properly get around anywhere without using it.
Poltergust
Member
This is a quality post.
stan423321
Member
This is surprising.
I'm okay with the music but it really gives off Sonic 4 vibes which most of fanbase hated so, if it is indicative of entire game, why? What really concerns me personally is physics and specifically a lot of Sonic halting, it seems even more pronounced than in Generations. Or is that supposed to be a "twist"?
I agree with the band-aid level design notion, that was one thing that Generations' classic acts contained but it wasn't as obvious/annoying at least. For what it's worth, Sonic 1's implementation of the slide tube wasn't just straight application of in-game ground physics from what I remember, but regardless it was definitely less abrupt.
It honestly sounds like you either didn't play or don't remember the original games, which is fine, but don't act so surprised. You can't stop that fast without hitting a wall or something in Sonic 3&K, it takes time, especially if you were moving at your top speed just before. Hitting enemies typically conserves your speed while possibly redirecting it unless you were already slow in the first place.
I'm okay with the music but it really gives off Sonic 4 vibes which most of fanbase hated so, if it is indicative of entire game, why? What really concerns me personally is physics and specifically a lot of Sonic halting, it seems even more pronounced than in Generations. Or is that supposed to be a "twist"?
I agree with the band-aid level design notion, that was one thing that Generations' classic acts contained but it wasn't as obvious/annoying at least. For what it's worth, Sonic 1's implementation of the slide tube wasn't just straight application of in-game ground physics from what I remember, but regardless it was definitely less abrupt.
It honestly sounds like you either didn't play or don't remember the original games, which is fine, but don't act so surprised. You can't stop that fast without hitting a wall or something in Sonic 3&K, it takes time, especially if you were moving at your top speed just before. Hitting enemies typically conserves your speed while possibly redirecting it unless you were already slow in the first place.