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Sonic Forces - Green Hill Gameplay
- Thread starter MrBadger
- Start date
Coincidentally Sonic Heroes is a GREAT example of Sega listening to criticism, not understanding the criticism at all, and making something nobody wanted.
People complained that there were too many radically different gameplay styles and they just wanted to play through the exact same stages with characters who have different abilities. So that when you play through the game as different characters you can take different paths and stuff.
What does Sega do? They boil all characters down to 3 classes, every member of a class shares abilities, and then they put the 3 classes together on teams. So instead of playing through the levels multiple times with different characters with different experiences you basically have 1 character who can change movesets mid-level and 3 clones with the exact same gameplay that you are forced to play through the entire game as to unlock the final boss. Talk about missing the point spectacularly.
And then that wouldn't be so bad if the level design was good. The problem with Heroes isn't that it's all action stages, it's that those stages are utter garbage. Bottomless pits everywhere. Extremely tedious platforming. Robots with HP that you have to hit over and over and over before you can move on. And whoever was in charge of level design loved the shit out of rail grinding and the rail grinding in Heroes was the WORST.
What? You were upset Tails was in a tank and couldn't fly around in SA2? Well we fixed that! Now you can ONLY play as Tails flying and carrying Sonic and Knuckles! That's clearly what you wanted! You're welcome!
I'm sorry for being rude, I can't fault you for feeling that way after all I just thought the way you said it came off as really dismissive and rude to others who do care about the details.
If you can't see the difference that's fair enough, but please do take people's word for it when they say it's different. "You don't know what you want" is just a pet peeve of mine because a lot of us definitely do.
That actually left me a bit cold :S I didn´t like the animations at all, it all felt really stiff, like Sonic is a robot facing right. I don´t know how to express it correctly, but the 2D sprites in Sonic Mania exhude tons of personality, this Sonic feels really lifeless in comparison. Also, not a fan of the level design that was shown. Falling floors, tunnels, loopings, springs, spikes and vertical platforms. Everything´s done a million times, I´d like to see some new obstacles.
Fake edit: Looking at the replies to this thread it seems I´m not alone.
Fake edit: Looking at the replies to this thread it seems I´m not alone.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
Literally the closest thing I can think of are the partner moves with Sonic....and it's not only not even close to being the core focus of the gameplay, it's virtually a footnote in the overall game design. It's practically useless for the most part, you're most likely to forget about it and only use it by accident. You still spend most of the time in that game switching between partners for specified member abilities and fighting sponge-damage enemies and bosses.
Who's doing this now though? Even when Generations first came out, the fans were the ones that most critically dissected the flaws with the gameplay and structural design of that game despite it being fairly well received. Colors was literally the first mainline game that didn't come with some alternate playstyle nobody asked for, hence it being very well received at launch. It's not hard to see why Colors was heralded when it came out and looked back on less favorably when its formula wasn't improved upon. Same for Generations.
I completely disagree with the assertion that the fans are to blame, and that's speaking as someone who agrees with you otherwise. I don't care for Colors, I think Generations is just decent, and I've been waiting for years now for a game that iterates upon what worked with Sonic Adventure and Unleashed without being held back by some massive caveat. I'm not upset at the fans for hating on Unleashed, I'm really frustrated that Sonic Team was so close to making a game that would have had massive appeal and absolutely save the franchise, but fucked it up with a badly implemented idea and numerous niggling design flaws that made the game a chore to play for people who didn't really want to enjoy it.
Mania proves that there are people with some authority at SEGA that are capable of producing a game that people actually want. I'm curious to see how that project got started, and I hope if it sells well that whichever branch got that off the ground (I'm assuming SoA) has a little bit more sway in dictating the direction of the franchise in the future. Not because I want a bunch of Classic Sonic games, but because those people clearly are more in tune with what the audience wants.
LordKasual
Banned
In all the ways that SA1/2 did and then some. But most importantly, the "momentum" to be conserved in Sonic Heroes is more about forward movement and progression. Where most players complain about having to fight alot, or switch alot, losing speed, ect ect...when you're good, you just learn how to use the physics/characters to skip sections entirely.
1) actual momentum is conserved when switching characters, which allows for neat tricks.
2) You can skip parts of the map by using momentum/terrain and jumping...which is significant in Heroes because the levels are quite long. Basically the same thing you can do in the classic games except in 3D.
3) Killing enemies / getting boxes rewards you with levels, which for all characters reduces the amount of time you need to spend fighting. (For instance, Lv3 Sonic no longer needs to use Sonic Tornado for flipping enemies or gimmicks, he only needs to homing attack them). Controling which characters get levels lets you finish the stages faster.
4) Dying resets you back to level 0, pretty much ensuring the rest of the run will take longer than otherwise because you lose abilities...a loss of momentum
5) When you're good at switching correctly, where most players would have to stop and fight enemies, good players are able to either kill them all immediately, or skip the section entirely with a well placed jump or boost.
I think this guy's runthrough of the Power Plant is a good example. Take notice of whom he gives the levelups to and why. Take notice of how much time he actually spends fighting the "damage sponge" enemies.
Even the rail stages, rail section skipping aside, can let you use clever tricks and knowledge of the stage to avoid staying still for too long. This hasn't really been a thing since SA2.
Basically, Heroes gives the player more oppertunities to complete the levels faster with skill. I think it was the last Sonic game that actually rewards you for mastery instead of just memorization, which is basically what current Modern gameplay is.
Altered Juice
Member
....May I please have the sonic mania release date?
Most people, even in fan circles, were completely enamored with Generations, and most of the critique we were seeing before release was batted away with calls of "wait and see" or "but Sky Sanctuary is in the game!"
Both Colors and Gens were beset by hype in the public and fanbase that obfuscated a lot of the flaws people are complaining about now with Forces simply because they didn't come with a caveat, as if the lack of a catch would make up for the glaring mediocrity of their base mechanics, especially in comparison to other platformers at the time like Rayman Origins or Donkey Kong Returns. That in itself isn't Sonic Team's fault. It's understandable why it happened, but empathy doesn't negate responsibility. People getting unreasonably swept up in hype is of their own doing. And if that hype colors their critique and Sonic Team listens to it under that assumption that people are saying this even after being critical, well, that's prime reason to tell the fan base they fucked up in letting mediocrity slide.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Thats the problem with these boost games, they start becoming and looking too similar. Been there done that.
Sonic need something new and fresh. Mind you im buying both this and mania.
Sonic need something new and fresh. Mind you im buying both this and mania.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
I honestly cant believe Sega still haven't axed Sonic Team and got a different developer to do a mainline Sonic game. Like, how many times do Sonic Team have to fuck up?
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
They tried and it got worse with boom.
I honestly dont know who they can have make a good sonic game.
Polioliolio
Member
Sonic Mania is miles ahead of actual Sonic Team games. Whyyy seegaa?
I guess what I'm saying is, hire the Sonic Mania guy as the leader of Sonic Team, cause that shit is so good.
I guess what I'm saying is, hire the Sonic Mania guy as the leader of Sonic Team, cause that shit is so good.
That in itself is their fault, because they're the reason the fanbase reached that point to begin with. This talk of responsibility it puzzling to me because you seem really hesitant to put any blame on the people who make their living being paid programmer and game designers' salaries to make good video games. It's not ImuUrRival69's job or responsibility to give Sonic Team meaningful feedback, but it is literally Sonic Team's job to seek out and properly interpret exactly that.
I, an unpaid and unaffiliated fan of the franchise could link right now dozens upon dozens of videos, essays, and discussion posts full of meaningful feedback that critically analyzes just about every tiny aspect of every game that came out in the decade. Hell, I would include your own posts. It's Sonic Team and SEGA's job to do that. People are getting paid more than me and you to do exactly this. It's their fault that they're bad at this.
If I'm being honest I blame the Japanese branch. I think SoA is very in tune with their fanbase right now and deserves to be commended for it. Mania as a project seems like it's largely their doing and they've been promoting it very well. The game itself looks brilliant. But that's just hearsay on my part, I don't have any insider knowledge. Just guessing.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
They did do that and everybody complained they weren't doing the boost style.
Retro Studios? -_-
Yeah. You're supposed to jump before the spring. You're punished for notnjunping by killing your momentum. That's usually how sonic games work.
If you'd say this started at Sonic Adventure then yeah, absolutely agreed and it's really frustrating.
But your momentum is already killed by running into the wall. The spring is absolutely unnecessary.
Modern ones at least. I remember a couple of hidden springs in Hill Top Zone in Sonic 2 but they were placed in spots where a large wall blocked you from progressing. Other times hidden springs were placed in trees as a secret to get more rings or find new areas of a level.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
I'm not understanding why they STILL can't get his animations and physics right.
Is there something I'm missing here?
Is there something I'm missing here?
The spring is an attempt at comprise between the frustration of coming to a dead stop and rewarding players who are replaying the level or have fast enough reflexes to jump on time.
You still come to a dead stop when you hit a spring because it forces you to go straight up and only allowing you to move at the peak. It takes longer than just hitting the wall and jumping up.
Yeah, with the way springs in Generations (and seemingly this) work, springs wreck your momentum way worse than hitting a wall because you get animation-locked until you hit the peak of your bounce.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Looks decent enought. But the level looks too flat and boxy, not enough rolling hills and such.
Poltergust
Member
I feel like you're more describing an idealization of Sonic Heroes instead of the game we actually got.
I mean, sure, the game allows for that stuff, but that is blocked off to the vast majority of the players because the controls were so awful. It's pretty much a constant struggle throughout the whole game to not fly off at any given instant. Sometimes you rocket forward after landing for no good reason. The pinball physics are completely busted. Rail switching is not reliable. And don't even get me started on the special stages.
I say this as someone who replays Sonic Heroes from time to time. There's something there but it's completely mired by all the problems with having your characters do what you actually want them to.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
I think it's pretty obvious that if most players' experiences of the game are having to switch characters and having to stop and fight enemies in order to proceed, then that is the intended design decisions that Sonic Team saw fit, that is how they intended players to play through the game. If they didn't, then the designers clearly screwed up, because the emphasis of teamwork mechanics --through both the gameplay mechanics and level design-- is clearly the main focus of the game's design.
"Good players" bypassing all of the stuff with the "momentum" examples you've presented reads less like something actually designed as part of Heroes' core gameplay mechanics that the developer wanted players to utilize; and more akin to glitches / exploits or unintended / overlooked design choices players can exploit to speedrun through levels. They are arguably a result of the game's existing design, but not an intention by the game designers.
In contrast, the Genesis games' core mechanics (rolling, jumping, bouncing, etc.) and level design (slopes, quarterpipes, half-pipes, etc.) were clearly designed to allow the player to build, maintain, and play with momentum, both of which are backed up by the games' underlying physics engine. Moreover, while people could exploit it to skip level design; the Sonic Team of old did put in certain restrictions in both the mechanics and structure of the levels themselves to keep players from completely breaking levels.
The notion that Sonic Team specifically designed Heroes' levels so that boss encounters and entire setpieces can be skipped entirely with switching characters / timed jumps / momentum I find to be really questionable, because it brings up the question of why would the studio would even spend their resources designing and implementing said boss encounters and setpieces in the game in the first place.
I'd say your argument is really tenuous at best.
Someone who actually has a pedigree in good/quality games, for one. Sega literally gave the keys other than Sonic Team to make a new 3D Sonic title to an unproven studio, for starters (though given reports about the game's troubled production, it's not like BRB is entirely responsible for Boom turning out to be a mess).
With that said, it's also important to make sure that the studio in question is also actually interested in Sonic as an IP and not just looking to make a quick buck. BRB's take on Sonic was just to churn out a generic beat-em-up PS2 platformer that had Sonic arguably shoehorned in at the last minute. To say nothing of the concept art for the game, which proved the studio really, really, didn't want to make a Sonic game in the first place.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
That's some hideous music...
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
This thread is starting to look like Sonic Retro right now.
I vote for Palmtree Panic myself.
(Yeah we can throw in Metal Sonic in there too)
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Taking 4 years to make a game that doesn't look as good as Sonic Generations (2011) is quite the feat.
Sonic Team Quality™
Sonic Team Quality™
They did that with Lost World. People complained because it had a learning curve.
You can do some insane stuff provided you have a wall to work with. Really fun to mess around in that game.
Dangerblade
Member
The visuals and animation don't bother me but there's something...off about the music.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
I just don't understand why classic sonic or his gameplay is even here? What was sonic mania for if you weren't going to commit to one style for the other game
I think the weird thing about constantly using Green Hill Zone in Sonic games, they don't actually learn how the original layout teaches the player. They're inconsistent. When you first start Green Hill Zone in Sonic 1, you'll run up to a platform and an enemy underneath teaching you that you'll die/get hurt if you touch the enemy or if you jump, you'll land on the platform and get the item above. Shortly after that as you're running, you're slowed down by a ramp and a rock at the top to show you the bridge ahead where new enemies appear. Ramps and rocks are cleverly placed throughout the level of Green Hill Zone as both obstacles and a way of learning about how to play. Later levels rocks and obstacles like them begin to dwindle as the gloves start to come off, and at these later stages you also understand the ramps and actively use them for more speed. You've come to understand that Sonic's spin is that of a pinball in a pinball machine.
The design I see in Forces is generic. Hidden springs for simple jumps which ends up as a big punishment. A simple rock, a ramp, or just allowing the player to hit the wall is enough form of punishment while also teaching the player at its earliest stage. And something I don't see in this footage are ramps, and when there are it's part of a speedy section with a booster right before it so you have the speed to go up the ramp. It's largely flat terrain.
The design I see in Forces is generic. Hidden springs for simple jumps which ends up as a big punishment. A simple rock, a ramp, or just allowing the player to hit the wall is enough form of punishment while also teaching the player at its earliest stage. And something I don't see in this footage are ramps, and when there are it's part of a speedy section with a booster right before it so you have the speed to go up the ramp. It's largely flat terrain.
Davey Cakes
Member
Didn't beat Colors. Never played Generations. I've only demoed Unleashed and Sonic 4 Part 1 and 2. The last Sonic game I truly enjoyed through and through was Sonic Rush.
The series has lost me over the years. That said, it's nice to see when Sega and Sonic Team put out a game the fans enjoy. Mania looks like Sonic's take on the "Mega Man 9" sort of retro revival and I think it's exactly what the series needs.
Watching this video of Sonic Forces just leaves me feeling numb. There's nothing particularly exciting about it. The mediocre music and level design hinges on the nostalgia of Green Hill and it just doesn't work anymore.
The series has lost me over the years. That said, it's nice to see when Sega and Sonic Team put out a game the fans enjoy. Mania looks like Sonic's take on the "Mega Man 9" sort of retro revival and I think it's exactly what the series needs.
Watching this video of Sonic Forces just leaves me feeling numb. There's nothing particularly exciting about it. The mediocre music and level design hinges on the nostalgia of Green Hill and it just doesn't work anymore.
Net_Wrecker
Member
The most interesting thing I've seen out of 3D Sonic in the last 15 years has been a fan project, Sonic Utopia. Big rolling Sonic CD intro looking spaces, momentum based physics, free form locomotion, fully controllable ramp/speed sections, spin dash and super peel out, etc.
I know there's a part of the fanbase in love with the boost gameplay and the whole obstacle course racer thing they've been doing for a while now, but Sonic Utopia is what I was dreaming about in the 90s. I'd love to see a fully fleshed out version of this.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Needs more EDGE
