Support NeoGAF

[diaspora]

Same company though. It's like when someone at IGN posts a low review score and everyone's like, "Well, everyone at IGN are assholes who get paid for reviews anyway." No matter what, the authors of said publication sites represent the company as a whole. And as far as MIC is concerned, both Violent Ken and Twintelle are racist characters. VK's designer is out of a job (presumably), why not Ishikawa?

Spoiler

And for the record, I love Twintelle, and am actually upset that we couldn't play as her in the Testpunch. (Perhaps she's not balanced yet?)

When people compare two different reviews from the same site it's usually pointed out that they're from different writers. Hence why your line of logic is fucking stupid.

I mean, putting aside that each writer's grievances are different in the first place with the OP's taking issue with literally using brown to depict "bad" and the one you're referencing talking about the social dynamics of black women's hair.

I sure as hell don't agree with her, but I'm not gonna dismiss it and say she's looking for something to be upset about.

This too.

 

[Bobo Dakes]

Yep. Article from the same site essentially says that Twintelle pushes the stereotypical notion that all black hair is weaponized.

Guess he has to go too now.

I sure as hell don't agree with her, but I'm not gonna dismiss it and say she's looking for something to be upset about.

 

[NoKisum]

When people compare two different reviews from the same site it's usually pointed out that they're from different writers. Hence why your line of logic is fucking stupid.

I've pointed this out to people plenty of times in the past as well. And the follow up is always on the lines of "Doesn't matter, still the same company."

 

[DevilDog]

And you don't see how equating evil to a skin color is a problem?

Dark Sora from kingdom hearts or Dark Link, both have dark skin, so dark it just sucks in all the light. I think its a perfect analogy for what they're missing inside.

Of course I can see how it is stupid if all they do is make the character from white to black, without any alterations (hair, eyes, different skin tones in their bodies etc).

 

[diaspora]

I've pointed this out to people plenty of times in the past as well. And the follow up is always on the lines of "Doesn't matter, still the same company."

Okay? And they're wrong. Just like how your referencing of someone's discussion of black hair in games is useless in one talking about vilifying brown skin is a waste of everyone's damn time.

Dark Sora from kingdom hearts or Dark Link, both have dark skin, so dark it just sucks in all the light. I think its a perfect analogy for what they're missing inside.

Of course I can see how it is stupid if all they do is make the character from white to black, without any alterations (hair, eyes, different skin tones in their bodies etc).

DARK SORA AND DARK LINK ARE LITERALLY FUCKING SHADOWS, Validar isn't. The Gerudo circa MM/OoT weren't.

 

[Salty Rice]

Wait Evil Ryu and Violent Ken are considered racist now?

Oh boy this escalated quickly.

 

[LotusHD]

All right, I'm tagging out. If you think you're coming in here with a fresh perspective as to why this complaint isn't valid, it's been covered already in any of the previous pages.

Some arguments are true (Robin/Validar, Evil Ryu) some don't hold up that well (Dark Pit, Dark Samus), but overall it is a valid complaint. We're not sitting calling people racist, anyone could easily have the best intentions while offending another group they never considered. Just use your judgement and don't be a stubborn asshole about it.

Was Dark Samus even a serious example? Thought the person that brought it up was joking, then people latched on to it.

Dark Pit is ironically a good example imo of how to do a "Dark" or villainous version of a character.

 

[diaspora]

Wait Evil Ryu and Violent Ken are considered racist now?

Oh boy this escalated quickly.

Making someone browner to show that they're evil is racially insensitive.

 

[Synth]

Same company though. It's like when someone at IGN posts a low review score and everyone's like, "Well, everyone at IGN are assholes who get paid for reviews anyway." No matter what, the authors of said publication sites represent the company as a whole. And as far as MIC is concerned, both Violent Ken and Twintelle are racist characters. VK's designer is out of a job (presumably), why not Ishikawa?

Spoiler

And for the record, I love Twintelle, and am actually upset that we couldn't play as her in the Testpunch. (Perhaps she's not balanced yet?)

It could be the same person, at the same company, written on the same day with the same pen, and it wouldn't matter. Somebody making a flawed argument doesn't invalidate any other arguments they make, and it certainly shouldn't be used as a point against other people that agree with one and possibly not the other.

Like, lets say I think the point you're trying to make in this thread is stupid... if you make another point in another thread, I'm not going to decide because I think the point you made here is dumb, that so is your next argument... and I most certainly won't extend that to arguments your friends or co-workers are making.

 

[Drillary Clinton]

Dark Sora from kingdom hearts or Dark Link, both have dark skin, so dark it just sucks in all the light. I think its a perfect analogy for what they're missing inside.

Of course I can see how it is stupid if all they do is make the character from white to black, without any alterations (hair, eyes, different skin tones in their bodies etc).

Dawg lmao we have specified that we aren't referring to examples like Dark Link and Dark samus multiple times here lol.

 

[LotusHD]

Dawg lmao we have specified that we aren't referring to examples like Dark Link and Dark samus multiple times here lol.

It's just going in circles at this point lol

 

[Messofanego]

Wait Evil Ryu and Violent Ken are considered racist now?

Oh boy this escalated quickly.

If the only thing that makes them be identified as evil is darkening their skin colour, yes it kind of is.

 

[Salty Rice]

Making someone browner to show that they're evil is racially insensitive.

But thats what the Dark Hadou does with you.

 

[diaspora]

Mister Negative is a Spider-Man villain literally based off of Yin/Yang. Whenever he's in his normal state, he's a regular-ass dude by the name of Martin Li. When he flips to his "yang" evil side he literally inverts like so:

But nobody makes the argument that his skin is racist here because he's not a skin colour that actually exists. He inverts everything (clothes, hair, personality, etc) and becomes a literal monochromatic black, not a shade of brown/black that exists with people irl the way Evil Ken/ Violent Ryu/ Validar, etc actually use.

Same is true of Dark Link or Dark Samus- the former is monochromatic other than the red eyes, and the latter is dark blue.

 

[Weltall Zero]

But thats what the Dark Hadou does with you.

Guys, close the thread. All this time we were blaming designers when they were just accurately portraying the effects of a real-world, well-known malady. I'm embarrassed for my ignorance now.

 

[Mr-Joker]

Making someone browner to show that they're evil is racially insensitive.

I have brown skin and I have never once viewed Evil Ryu and Violent Ken as racist or having brown skin, as I viewed it as red mixed with grey and black giving the impression that they are corrupted.

 

[Synth]

But thats what the Dark Hadou does with you.

You say that like it's legitimate some kind of human affliction that would be inaccurate to represent in any other way, rather than something completely made up.

 

[KLonso]

But thats what the Dark Hadou does with you.

So by extension of your point, racist portrayals are fine as long as they're internally consistent with the game's lore?

 

[Two Words]

People arguing that this doesn't have racial implication issues remind me of people that argue Mr. Popo isn't a racially offensive character because he is kindhearted and wise.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I've pointed this out to people plenty of times in the past as well. And the follow up is always on the lines of "Doesn't matter, still the same company."

Soooo... your argument is that people act in an ignorant way, therefore you are going to behave in an ignorant way. OK then...

 

[NoKisum]

It could be the same person, at the same company, written on the same day with the same pen, and it wouldn't matter. Somebody making a flawed argument doesn't invalidate any other arguments they make, and it certainly shouldn't be used as a point against other people that agree with one and possibly not the other.

Like, lets say I think the point you're trying to make in this thread is stupid... if you make another point in another thread, I'm not going to decide because I think the point you made here is dumb, that so is your next argument... and I most certainly won't extend that to arguments your friends or co-workers are making.

I'm not saying either point is stupid. Guess I didn't make a clear cut case of the point I'm trying to make previous posts, so my apologies. Let me try this properly:

Our industry, as the first article mentions about Violent Ken's skin color and the second about Twintelle's hair, has shown that there's a huge bias against people of color and their representation. What needs to be done is not just acknowledge that we want more positive representation in said games, but weed out those who make mistakes in addressing the matter. These articles have shown that people are bothered by the characters and will not stand for it. If people are this upset, then we need to get bad representation out of here the only way that works: hit the designers in their wallets.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Greatest part of the Ganon example is that he's a part of a race and even they don't like the dude and sure as fuck aren't allies with him. The Gerudo are even considered good guys. Even within their own argument their logic falls on its face.

 

[Two Words]

But thats what the Dark Hadou does with you.

The Dark Hadou isn't fucking real.

 

[Lovely Salsa]

Compared to the rest of the lions, yes.

Irl lions with dark fur are the sexiest to lioness

 

[Weltall Zero]

Spoilering images doesn't work on mobile GAF. You should just post the links as a URL if you are trying to hide it.

Done, sorry and thanks for the heads up. I also changed one of the images as the URL gave away their name.

 

[Tizoc]

Wait Evil Ryu and Violent Ken are considered racist now?

Oh boy this escalated quickly.

I was kinda wondering if anyone would bring that up @_@
Wonder if the latter has anything to do with svc v ken art.

 

[DevilDog]

Dawg lmao we have specified that we aren't referring to examples like Dark Link and Dark samus multiple times here lol.

Besides that I'm also saying that you can invert their skin, or parts of them to darker, but also work with the rest of their appearance.
Basically you can be creative with the darker skin part, maxing it out to not reflect light at all is just one option, or making some things white, like the white dog in the yang.

Yeah like mister negativo and what not.

 

[Bobo Dakes]

I have brown skin and I have never once viewed Evil Ryu and Violent Ken as racist or having brown skin, as I viewed it as red mixed with grey and black giving the impression that they are corrupted.

Okay, "I have brown skin and i don't think it's racist" isn't an argument. This leads to the non POC in this thread saying "well these two POC don't think it's racist, so it's not racist", which has actually happened already.

 

[Salty Rice]

So by extension of your point, racist portrayals are fine as long as they're internally consistent with the game's lore?

Its obviously the intention to make them look like Akuma.

They dont change the ethnicity its just that their skin gets darker like someone laying too long in the sun just from Dark Sun from the inside.

Nobody ever saw Evil Ryu and Violent Ken and thought they changed ethnicity.

I was kinda wondering if anyone would bring that up @_@
Wonder if the latter has anything to do with svc v ken art.

That i can see why someone would say its racist.

But its not the canon look anyway.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I'm not saying either point is stupid. Guess I didn't make a clear cut case of the point I'm trying to make previous posts, so my apologies. Let me try this properly:

Our industry, as the first article mentions about Violent Ken's skin color and the second about Twintelle's hair, has shown that there's a huge bias against people of color and their representation. What needs to be done is not just acknowledge that we want more positive representation in said games, but weed out those who make mistakes in addressing the matter. These articles have shown that people are bothered by the characters and will not stand for it. If people are this upset, then we need to get bad representation out of here the only way that works: hit the designers in their wallets.

Assuming you're actually being serious and not just trying to prove a point by exaggeration (which I believe almost everyone else is assuming, so...), I think there's quite a broad continuum of possible reactions between "do nothing" and "ensure this designer is fired". I personally think "let this designer know why what they're doing is problematic" to be a pretty adequate and constructive response.

 

[Bobo Dakes]

People arguing that this doesn't have racial implication issues remind me of people that argue Mr. Popo isn't a racially offensive character because he is kindhearted and wise.

It's especially funny when you point out that Popo is essentially a slave.

 

[NoKisum]

Assuming you're actually being serious and not just trying to prove a point by exaggeration (which I believe almost everyone else is assuming, so...), I think there's quite a broad continuum of possible reactions between "do nothing" and "ensure this designer is fired". I personally think "let this designer know why what they're doing is problematic" to be a pretty adequate and constructive response.

Okay, so how do we get this message in the hands of Ishikawa so changes can be made and no one else is offended? And how do we do this for every designer for that matter?

 

[Bobo Dakes]

Its obviously the intention to make them look like Akuma.

They dont change the ethnicity its just that their skin gets darker like someone laying too long in the sun just from Dark Sun from the inside.

Nobody ever saw Evil Ryu and Violent Ken and thought they changed ethnicity.

.

You're aware that's not what's being argued right?

 

[OgCarnage]

We know the reason that it's being done.

The criticism is at the way it's being done. Which is darkening skin tone like it's an accessory or clothing. All people are suggesting is that in the future, devs find a better way to convey that contrast.

No one here is getting "triggered". The strongest reactions and longest posts seem to consistently be from the people who think it's not a problem. lol

Yea but who cares? And why do they care? How does it hurt you? No one that's of age plays a game and bases real life prejudice because of it. This is a silly thing to be arguing about. My stance isnt to change it nor to defend it. My stance is why is this even a thing? There's real issues in the gaming community, like unfair practices and anti consumer practices.

 

[KLonso]

Yea but who cares? And why do they care? How does it hurt you?

There's a whole thread here you could read if you want those questions answered.

 

[Two Words]

Yea but who cares? And why do they care? How does it hurt you? No one that's of age plays a game and bases real life prejudice because of it. This is a silly thing to be arguing about. My stance isnt to change it nor to defend it. My stance is why is this even a thing? There's real issues in the gaming community, like unfair practices and anti consumer practices.

Wait, do you think adults are impervious to implied racial prejudices????

 

[Nekofrog]

Yea but who cares? And why do they care? How does it hurt you? No one that's of age plays a game and bases real life prejudice because of it. This is a silly thing to be arguing about. My stance isnt to change it nor to defend it. My stance is why is this even a thing? There's real issues in the gaming community, like unfair practices and anti consumer practices.

you DON'T think unfair and gross portrayals of minorities isn't a real issue in the gaming community?

ok.gif

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

On the front lines of the racial war, we really, really need to lighten Evil Ryu's skin tone because it's highly, highly problematic.

As a black person I get why it bothers some people. At the same time it's at the bottom of things to give a fuck about. What's more pressing is that Nintendo does not find it ok to allow you to pick your skin tone in Animal Crossong because they view white as the default. Even then, it's not worth truly getting mad about beyond annoyance.

This is why people like this are called SJWs. It's not that social justice is bad. It's that they try to make everything about their social justice. The really big irony here is that kids in Flint are dying of lead poisoning and here we are talking about Evil Ryu and Violent Ken's skin colors. SJWs betray their own arguments. They talk of things like privelage but lack the self awareness to realize many of their pet issues - like this one - operate on said privilege. By concentrating on something so not noteworthy that actually affects living, breathing people, they take jabs at larger society they disagree, exposing their own privilege. Bet you 100 bucks the person who made this is living comfortable. Yeah, they may have had the racist encounter or two, but are they living well? Probably. How can you tell? Because they base their arguments of social justice based around video game characters made and designed in a foreign land across the sea rather than pushing for voting locally, donating to their HBCU, or volunteering.

They don't push for action that will result in any real lasting change. They just want their video game characters to stop offending them so much.

Prime example as to why SJWs and by larger extent our generation, are seen as a damn joke while not realizing their own argument is steeped in privelage.

 

[Synth]

Okay, so how do we get this message in the hands of Ishikawa so changes can be made and no one else is offended? And how do we do this for every designer for that matter?

You don't target individual creators for something that you view as being primarily lack of understanding or consideration. As long as it's identified and discussed, it will start to be noticed by a variety of people, with odds being good that some will not only be in a position to make the creator of any specific character ware that it may be consideration they should take into account when they next make similar design decisions, but also for other creators that we currently know nothing about who may otherwise be creating similar characters in the future.

 

[Two Words]

On the front lines of the racial war, we really, really need to lighten Evil Ryu's skin tone because it's highly, highly problematic.

As a black person I get why it bothers some people. At the same time it's at the bottom of things to give a fuck about. What's more pressing is that Nintendo does not find it ok to allow you to pick your skin tone in Animal Crossong because they view white as the default. Even then, it's not worth truly getting mad about beyond annoyance.

This is why people like this are called SJWs. It's not that social justice is bad. It's that they try to make everything about their social justice. The really big irony here is that kids in Flint are dying of lead poisoning and here we are talking about Evil Ryu and Violent Ken's skin colors. SJWs betray their own arguments. They talk of things like privelage but lack the self awareness to realize many of their pet issues - like this one - operate on said privilege. By concentrating on something so not noteworthy that actually affects living, breathing people, they take jabs at larger society they disagree, exposing their own privilege. Bet you 100 bucks the person who made this is living comfortable. Yeah, they may have had the racist encounter or two, but are they living well? Probably. How can you tell? Because they base their arguments of social justice based around video game characters made and designed in a foreign land across the sea rather than pushing for voting locally, donating to their HBCU, or volunteering.

They don't push for action that will result in any real lasting change. They just want their video game characters to stop offending them so much.

Prime example as to why SJWs and by larger extent our generation, are seen as a damn joke while not realizing their own argument is steeped in privelage.

Why are you wasting your time posting on this forum? The time you wasted to say that could have been used to do far more useful things. Every second spent on GAF is wasted time. So how about we stop trying to dismiss conversations like this as not being important when nothing spoken here is important in the grand scheme of things?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Because it's Sunday. I'm not the one trying to save the world by making Evil Ryu have light skin, b.

 

[Nekofrog]

words

uh huh. okay. let's just stop discussing things on a discussion forum then. there's literally no sense to discussing anything on a discussion forum because sjws or something. yep

 

[Bobo Dakes]

On the front lines of the racial war, we really, really need to lighten Evil Ryu's skin tone because it's highly, highly problematic.

As a black person I get why it bothers some people. At the same time it's at the bottom of things to give a fuck about. What's more pressing is that Nintendo does not find it ok to allow you to pick your skin tone in Animal Crossong because they view white as the default. Even then, it's not worth truly getting mad about beyond annoyance.

This is why people like this are called SJWs. It's not that social justice is bad. It's that they try to make everything about their social justice. The really big irony here is that kids in Flint are dying of lead poisoning and here we are talking about Evil Ryu and Violent Ken's skin colors. SJWs betray their own arguments. They talk of things like privelage but lack the self awareness to realize many of their pet issues - like this one - operate on said privilege. By concentrating on something so not noteworthy that actually affects living, breathing people, they take jabs at larger society they disagree, exposing their own privilege. Bet you 100 bucks the person who made this is living comfortable. Yeah, they may have had the racist encounter or two, but are they living well? Probably. How can you tell? Because they base their arguments of social justice based around video game characters made and designed in a foreign land across the sea rather than pushing for voting locally, donating to their HBCU, or volunteering.

They don't push for action that will result in any real lasting change. They just want their video game characters to stop offending them so much.

Prime example as to why SJWs and by larger extent our generation, are seen as a damn joke while not realizing their own argument is steeped in privelage.

So we should ignore passive racism (or microaggressions) that have larger effects on society because it's not the biggest issue in the world?

The video character is ONE example of a LARGER problematic trope. Come one dude.

 

[Shaanyboi]

How would you guys as artists portray an evil character?

I feel like no matter what you do, someone will find an issue with it.

I can and have designed evil characters without just making them darker-skinned compared to the protagonists as an "obvious visual indicator of their evilness"

Eyes, posture, body language, framing, shape, costuming. All are tools available on a purely visual level.

 

[diaspora]

Because it's Sunday. I'm not the one trying to save the world by making Evil Ryu have light skin, b.

edit: damn that was fast

 

[A Link to the Past]

I don't know man. I'm just one individual and and I don't have all the answers.


I suppose you're implying that I'm saying that it isn't an issue today? I mean, you can twist my words around to make it mean that, I suppose.

I don't know what you want me to tell you man.
Why can't we all just love each other?

How is being one individual preclude you from assessing that, but not from assessing that this is a small matter?

 

[MKIL65]

They don't push for action that will result in any real lasting change. They just want their video game characters to stop offending them so much.

Giving feedback and talking about gaming related issues is important. It's a message, that you spread, and developers are noticing it. They then hastily make sure to do something.

Sometimes they take things into consideration, sometimes they don't. You just have to continue sending your message.

How is that not taking an action?

 

[Bobo Dakes]

On the front lines of the racial war, we really, really need to lighten Evil Ryu's skin tone because it's highly, highly problematic.

As a black person I get why it bothers some people. At the same time it's at the bottom of things to give a fuck about. What's more pressing is that Nintendo does not find it ok to allow you to pick your skin tone in Animal Crossong because they view white as the default. Even then, it's not worth truly getting mad about beyond annoyance.

This is why people like this are called SJWs. It's not that social justice is bad. It's that they try to make everything about their social justice. The really big irony here is that kids in Flint are dying of lead poisoning and here we are talking about Evil Ryu and Violent Ken's skin colors. SJWs betray their own arguments. They talk of things like privelage but lack the self awareness to realize many of their pet issues - like this one - operate on said privilege. By concentrating on something so not noteworthy that actually affects living, breathing people, they take jabs at larger society they disagree, exposing their own privilege. Bet you 100 bucks the person who made this is living comfortable. Yeah, they may have had the racist encounter or two, but are they living well? Probably. How can you tell? Because they base their arguments of social justice based around video game characters made and designed in a foreign land across the sea rather than pushing for voting locally, donating to their HBCU, or volunteering.

They don't push for action that will result in any real lasting change. They just want their video game characters to stop offending them so much.

Prime example as to why SJWs and by larger extent our generation, are seen as a damn joke while not realizing their own argument is steeped in privelage.

It's like we can't be mad about both issues. I'm discussing racial representation in video games on a VIDEO GAME FORUM.

I talk about bigger issues such as Flint or Twitter or I actually make donations.

 

[ExVicis]

I never saw this, I was always pretty sure the case for these guys wasn't necessarily because they're dark but because they are an unnatural color that looks sickly and pale. Sickly and Pale is universally known to look unwell and as a result as something you should shy away from or at least watch. So I don't get this but to me every villain that follows this trope never seemed dark to me as so much just like they were so evil their bodies seemed to suffer from their personality and decisions.

In other words think KOTOR and how as you went evil you kinda look both evil and like you had pneumonia.

 

[Two Words]

Giving feedback and talking about gaming related issues is important. It's a message, that you spread, and developers notice it. They then hastily make sure to take things into consideration.

How is that not taking an action?

This is the single solution fallacy:

A problem exists.

People think the problem should be fixed.

Some people come up with some small things that can help with fixing the problem.

Some other people argue that this small solution won't fix the problem, so don't bother doing it.

This cycle of coming up with small solutions that get rejected continues for ever.

A single solution for the problem can never be found.

The problem is never solved.