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Wonder Woman |OT| The World is Ready for You, Gal Gad [SPOILERS]
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Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
Similar, but a lot of the details are completely wrong. I'll copy the leak from the other thread and add annotations
Freewheelin'
Member
Just saw Wonder Woman while Trump was ruining the world again.
Will start with the caveat I'm not particularly impressed by many superhero films - TDK, Spidey 2 and BB the only great ones, Iron Man 3 and Winter Soldier the only MCU films I really like with a few other decent ones - and I don't think this particularly bucks the trend. It's a solid effort with still too many concessions to the genre: some wonky looking CGI fighting (with an exorbitant amount of speed ramping), been there done that origin tale, poor one-dimensional villains, pacing issues (especially in its final third)... solid without ever being special.
It does have a few massive points in the plus column though. First of all is Gadot, who isn't by any stretch of the imagination a great actor, but has the same winning combination of earnestness and naivete that Hamill does in A New Hope, to name a perfect comparison; you can't help but root for her. Pine is one of the most naturally charismatic actors out there and does a very good job of making Steve a fleshed out character with different shades to him.
The film's really quite funny; I laughed more often than I did at the very disappointing Guardians 2 for instance, and part of that is because it's quite low key humour rooted in character work; many of the laughs come from Diana's misconceptions and misunderstandings. What Jenkins does that a lesser filmmaker wouldn't is understands her tone, reflected in the measured approach she takes to colour palette and a lot of her scenes' lengths; there's something very much to be said for the impact of throwing heroes into real world conflict as opposed to hiding them in Gotham or Smallville, because it makes them at once more relatable and even more otherworldly, that they were able to help stop conflicts we know were horrifying - Cap America comes to mine, as does seeing that incredible panel in Watchmen of Manhattan towering over the Vietcong. Jenkins doesn't shy away from showing the horrors of WWI and it emphasises Diana's growth by putting her in a context we understand. There's also some repercussions at the ending which again has more dramatic heft and impact than many of its contemporaries.
It's an okay movie that makes some good choices for its universe, but more importantly it's a movie that a bunch of young girls will go see and love, and you have to credit WB with a lot of the decisions here: respected female director, Middle Eastern lead, a range of ages and races in the beginning. Not the biggest fan of the film myself but I hope it does very well.
Will start with the caveat I'm not particularly impressed by many superhero films - TDK, Spidey 2 and BB the only great ones, Iron Man 3 and Winter Soldier the only MCU films I really like with a few other decent ones - and I don't think this particularly bucks the trend. It's a solid effort with still too many concessions to the genre: some wonky looking CGI fighting (with an exorbitant amount of speed ramping), been there done that origin tale, poor one-dimensional villains, pacing issues (especially in its final third)... solid without ever being special.
It does have a few massive points in the plus column though. First of all is Gadot, who isn't by any stretch of the imagination a great actor, but has the same winning combination of earnestness and naivete that Hamill does in A New Hope, to name a perfect comparison; you can't help but root for her. Pine is one of the most naturally charismatic actors out there and does a very good job of making Steve a fleshed out character with different shades to him.
The film's really quite funny; I laughed more often than I did at the very disappointing Guardians 2 for instance, and part of that is because it's quite low key humour rooted in character work; many of the laughs come from Diana's misconceptions and misunderstandings. What Jenkins does that a lesser filmmaker wouldn't is understands her tone, reflected in the measured approach she takes to colour palette and a lot of her scenes' lengths; there's something very much to be said for the impact of throwing heroes into real world conflict as opposed to hiding them in Gotham or Smallville, because it makes them at once more relatable and even more otherworldly, that they were able to help stop conflicts we know were horrifying - Cap America comes to mine, as does seeing that incredible panel in Watchmen of Manhattan towering over the Vietcong. Jenkins doesn't shy away from showing the horrors of WWI and it emphasises Diana's growth by putting her in a context we understand. There's also some repercussions at the ending which again has more dramatic heft and impact than many of its contemporaries.
It's an okay movie that makes some good choices for its universe, but more importantly it's a movie that a bunch of young girls will go see and love, and you have to credit WB with a lot of the decisions here: respected female director, Middle Eastern lead, a range of ages and races in the beginning. Not the biggest fan of the film myself but I hope it does very well.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I liked the new DC intro.
I was surprised by the focus on GL though considering he doesn't have a movie in the works.
The movie itself was pretty good, much better than I expected. They did spoil a lot of great scenes in the trailers though, I feel the trenches scene would have had more impact if they hadn't spoiled it beforehand.
Ending left me a little confused, so can she fly now or is she just leaping really far? I also liked the call back to her liking Ice Cream and telling the vendor he should be proud, loved that scene in JL:W.
I was surprised by the focus on GL though considering he doesn't have a movie in the works.
The movie itself was pretty good, much better than I expected. They did spoil a lot of great scenes in the trailers though, I feel the trenches scene would have had more impact if they hadn't spoiled it beforehand.
Ending left me a little confused, so can she fly now or is she just leaping really far? I also liked the call back to her liking Ice Cream and telling the vendor he should be proud, loved that scene in JL:W.
ShemhazaiX
Member
Geoff Johns. Pretty much the only explanation needed.
Inferno313
Banned
He does have a movie in the works. Green Lantern Corps. Scheduled as of now, for July 24, 2020.
crisdecuba
Member
I really enjoyed reading your perspective - thanks for taking the time to share it!
Miles Quaritch
Member
This is the start of a more hopeful and colourful phase 2 and I welcome it.
The next solo Superman will be interesting if they keep this more hopeful theme going.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Weird that I haven't heard about this before, but I am glad there's a GL movie coming.
Jon Stewart please!
TrueDefault
Member
Just been to this movie last night. I see they used a little of the new52 origin (Haven't read Rebirth yet), but kept the noble Amazons. I'd prefer it if it was Athena who created Themyscira instead.
Really loved some action scenes. The way she dispatched the tower was overkill. Diana was not as I imagined her, but she's still young in the film and hasn't grown into Wonder Woman yet. Will see it again this weekend.
Am I correct to assume the Godkiller was actually Diana, not the sword?
Really loved some action scenes. The way she dispatched the tower was overkill. Diana was not as I imagined her, but she's still young in the film and hasn't grown into Wonder Woman yet. Will see it again this weekend.
Am I correct to assume the Godkiller was actually Diana, not the sword?
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
Thinking back on this, I think I would update these to this:
First act: C+
Second act: B/B+
Third act: D
It seems the first act is the place where I diverge the most from people who have seen and reflecting on it, I think I was a bit unfair. There is some beautiful shots there and I was a fan of the storybook section. It's still pretty rough, in my opinion, and that's for the following reasons:
1. the mythology was just not for me. I know it is taken from the comic book character, but introducing actual greek gods is just too out-of-left-field in this universe. It is the same issue I had whenever X-Files would do religious themed episodes.
2. I found the Amazons to be a complete bore outside of combat. Almost none of them leave a lasting impression since the film offers no explanation for what these women do outside of training. I am glad that Gal Gadot was not forced to do a foreign accent in BvS, but it quite frankly bizarre to hear all the Amazons try to do an impression of her's.
3. We're given no reason why Themyscira represents some greater society. The island sure is pretty, but this doesn't come off like a place that would be remotely exciting for more than a day vacation.
4. This is more of a retroactive reason, but here we go. I think Robin Wright does an admirable job, and becomes close to the only Amazon that gets close to being engaging. But she's killed off and is never brought up again, even though it's sold in the moment as a massive emotional loss for Diana. It doesn't even seem to play into Diana's reasoning for going to London.
Outside of how that death is handled by the rest of the movie, I don't have any complaints about that particular scene. I did find the dynamic of these incredibly strong, well-trained warriors still suffering severe casualties from guns to be interesting.
The second act has some really great stuff, like the No Man's Land siege, which I honestly think is one of the best action scenes I've seen in a superhero film (some very poor CGI notwithstanding). But the notHowling Commandos do, by my approximation, drag the film down. They each have an issue that alone would be worthy for the film to tackle (PDST! Racism! Manifest Destiny!) that it's impossible for the movie to get even a superficial treatment of them. I think taking them out and giving more time to Additionally, the fish-out-of-water humor, while often funny, is the film trying to have its cake and eat it. Diana is incredibly smart and learned, but is forced to come off to naïve at the same time. It feels like there are way to derive humor from this situation while commenting on the sexism of the time period (some of which, of course, still occurs today) without resorting to her expressing childlike wonder over ice cream. Still, the aforementioned action sequence really is spectacular, and Chris Pine and Gal Gadot have remarkable chemistry.
That last third, though... the more one thinks about it, the more it completely falls apart. I think the film starts to lose me at the gala, where Danny Huston talks to Diana about gods. It lays on that he's Ares so thick that I immediately knew he couldn't be. But what's even more bizarre is how those lines are completely nonsensical in the context of him not being Ares. The actual reveal of Ares consequently lands with a thud. And the fight is, as has been posted before, an embracing of everything wrong with CGI battles.
Of course, this is nothing new to DCEU films. But what makes it so disappointing here is the very complex, intriguing themes the film was tackling just prior to this big reveal. The great version of this movie has her dealing with these feelings for the rest of the runtime, perhaps even saving her conclusions about humanity until a sequel. Sure, Ares is actually controlling humans, he is merely telling them about the best way to kill each other. That still makes this far too black and white for me, and doesn't really track anyway, considering World War 2 is just around the corner (unless, GOD FORBID, they bring Ares back). The fight itself is even more of a spectacular misfire considering how strong much of the action before is. Ares is a Doomsday who monologues endlessly.
I'm less certain how to digest Diana's faith in humanity being restored by Trevor's proclamation of love. They're chemistry is so good that it works more than it should, but it all feels too quick and too typical. Again, I think the smart choice would have been for Diana to end this film with conflicting feelings about humanity, neither a total abandonment nor holding a ”love conquers all" philosophy.
Overall, it is generally a step forward for the DCEU. But it should have been several. You can see the filthy fingerprints of the braintrust behind this series' other films on the last act, so I truly hope the commercial and critical success of this movie allows Patty Jenkins to create a more cohesive sequel. If she can, that film could truly be a home run.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Why do they make her jump towards random nothingness at the end of the movie, lol, perhaps I missed it, what makes her look so serious like that? Perhaps that boat at that far end of the scene hiding some evil supermutant or something? lol.
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
I thought there was some kind of explosion because there's definitely a loud noise, though in retrospect it did sound a ship horn. The rumored plot I posted up there mentioned something about a building on fire, but I didn't see anything either.
I hope someone more eagle eyed can tell us, because it comes off very strange indeed.
I liked it, but it's not a top 5 of the genre film to me. It has the same issue that a lot of superhero origins have where the first half is a lot more entertaining than the second half where you basically get non-stop action.
I would probably go with a 7/10
I saw the Ares twist coming from a mile away. I did not think that Steve Trevor would die though. At least not before Diana was bound in those tank treads.
I would probably go with a 7/10
I saw the Ares twist coming from a mile away. I did not think that Steve Trevor would die though. At least not before Diana was bound in those tank treads.
Barrow Roll
Member
Yes, I'm pretty sure Ares actually explicitly says this in the movie.
He does. Right after slagging the sword.
Schweinehund
Member
I think Diana can fly now, I'm pretty sure she hovered in the air in the fight with Ares for a few moments. She doesn't have control over it like Superman does though.
Kind of sucks if all the gods but Zeus are actually dead, I liked Azzarello's run with the greek god extended family. Plus where is Shazam going to derive his powers from?
Kind of sucks if all the gods but Zeus are actually dead, I liked Azzarello's run with the greek god extended family. Plus where is Shazam going to derive his powers from?
BronsonLee
Member
They somehow made Wonder Woman's origin story the most interesting one I've seen in fucking forever
Ares twist was pretty obvious, but I like Professor Lupin so it's cool. I think they fucked up massively by putting Trevor out in the first movie because there's no timeline or possibility for them to slot in more adventures with him and Diana, which is real disappointing. Pine was the glue to the whole damn thing. Them getting rid of Robin Wright's character was also a huge disservice. There's more meat there than with Trevor's crew, though it was funny to see the pilot from The Rundown 13 years later.
Gimme more. I still don't care about Justice League because it's got all the other jokers in it, but a sequel yes please
Ares twist was pretty obvious, but I like Professor Lupin so it's cool. I think they fucked up massively by putting Trevor out in the first movie because there's no timeline or possibility for them to slot in more adventures with him and Diana, which is real disappointing. Pine was the glue to the whole damn thing. Them getting rid of Robin Wright's character was also a huge disservice. There's more meat there than with Trevor's crew, though it was funny to see the pilot from The Rundown 13 years later.
Gimme more. I still don't care about Justice League because it's got all the other jokers in it, but a sequel yes please
I swear there was a thing in the comics where Steve's grandson is a carbon copy of him.
MHWilliams
Member
I believe the point is that Diana has learned to fly in the modern day.
They done a couple of Steve Trevors, but yes, that was the gist of one of them. There was also Trevor Stevens, the black guy.
Wasn't it implied that Zeus is dead as well?
I can see how they wouldn't want actual gods alive in the modern DCEU.
BronsonLee
Member
They pull that shit in Captain America comics too, I hope they don't do it here. Trevor had some serious baggage on him from years of war that was a really interesting dynamic with Diana's extreme naivety and honesty. It played real well together.
I also really liked that they didn't go the Thor route of 'hur hur hur she's dumb as shit cause she isn't from here' thing. The major issues that she runs into (why was she in the meeting/what is she doing here/etc) were issues with the time period, not her. I liked that Trevor was relatively protective of her too - him stammering around while trying to explain to her why he won't sleep with her was pretty funny, as was her saying she's a master of sex cause she read 12 books about it
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
I did laugh at how there was no blood on the sword that she stabbed clean through him
Sword came from Christopher Nolan's School of Blood.
BronsonLee
Member
Let the record show that I entirely disagree with anything BGE ever said about this movie too
#canttrusthim
#canttrusthim
You need to buy the Blu Ray to get some (cgi) blood.
NHarmonic.
Member
The way they reveal what Steve says to her when she was deaf from the explosions + Steve's final scene kinda got me. Loved them.
Gal was amazing, and i love the way she really cares for the character (these past few months she's been really into the whole thing in her social media accounts, kinda like The Rock with his movies).
Gal was amazing, and i love the way she really cares for the character (these past few months she's been really into the whole thing in her social media accounts, kinda like The Rock with his movies).
That was what the Lynda Carter show did when it switched from the 1940s to the 1970s. But that's impossible in this particular movie timeline, and wouldn't be a good idea, anyway. To me that's pretty much like all the suggestions that Hayley Atwell should have played Sharon Carter; it would undermine the loss of the protagonist and encourage the audience to view the new guy as basically an interchangeable replacement.
On the whole, I quite liked that movie. I suspect the totally understandable yearning for a good female superhero movie has probably inflated its RT score a bit relative to what it might have been without that knowledge, but, on the other hand, if people really do like it that much, more power to 'em. As a longtime Wonder Woman comics fan, this character has really needed a good modern live-action adaptation for a long, long time, and here it is.
Good Stuff
- Gal Gadot - the internet has basically been engaged in a multi-year debate over whether Gadot can act, and the answer turns out to be yes. I liked her cameo role in BvS, and was sold on her as an action hero, but I wasn't entirely sure how she'd be with dramatic material, and neither her slim prior filmography nor the movie's own trailers offered much evidence either way. She's by far the liveliest and most engaging DC superhero put onscreen in a very long time (which, granted, low bar).
- Chris Pine - that he's a funny, engaging actor is well-known by this point (to the extent that a lot of people were worried that he would totally steal the movie away from Gadot if she was weak, which would have been a real problem), and he delivers again here. Moreover, Steve Trevor is a very well-written character here, which is a feat, because literally generations of Wonder Woman writers have struggled with what to do with Steve, to the point where George Perez, probably the character's best writer to date give or take a Greg Rucka, opted in his reboot to made Steve a decades-older friend who marries Etta Candy just to end the constant struggle of what to with him. The movie also wisely doesn't go the for common idea of making Steve's character arc about learning to not be a sexist pig, which really does not go well if you're also trying to tell a love story for what is meant to be a great feminist hero (looking at you, 2009 animated movie). Relatedly...
- Diana gets laid. This has been an incredibly thorny subject in the comics, even in an era where most heroes (male and female) have been getting nooky for decades. The film handles it in a nicely understated manner.
- The "Diana in Man's World" element is played nicely, both in terms of getting some comedy without making her look like an idiot (the bit where she wants to rush over and look at a baby is my favourite, because, of course, she's never seen a baby before), and the more dramatic stuff is mainly well-written. I appreciate that they included a tip of the hat to the then-ongoing suffrage movement, without bogging the movie down in having Diana spend a lot of time fighting 1918 gender roles. Not that I object to the movies doing some more explicitly feminist-themed story points in the future, but I'd rather see that in a present-day sequel rather than invite contemporary audiences to pat themselves on the back because women can vote now.
- The movie isn't afraid to embrace straight-up myth and magic, without any of the the Thor movies' desperate attempts to make Asgard a scientifically advanced alien race. Though, granted, all the gods are dead other than Diana, which seems like a bit of a story limiter going forward. But whatever.
- The movie has two twists, one of which is so obvious that it barely even qualifies as a twist, the other of which is pretty well-handled (and works nicely from a thematic standpoint, particularly since the movie up to that point had basically been treating the German Empire as if they were the Nazis in a World War II movie).
- Most of the supporting casting, from the Amazons to most of the people Diana meets in Man's World, are nicely handled (even if some, like Etta, don't really get much screentime in what will presumably be their only film outing). Saïd Taghmaoui's Sameer was my favourite.
- The movie looks really beautiful.
Quibbles
- Much has been made in the reviews that this is a much more optimistic sort of movie than the other DCEU films, which is true, and in isolation that's a good thing. However...this really doesn't fit at all with what we were told about DCEU!Diana in BvS. Her mini-arc in that film, such as it was, was about coming out of a century of self-imposed retirement. She explicitly said that a hundred years earlier "I walked away from mankind". Her arc in this movie is the exact opposite of that -- she ends the war reaffirming her faith in mankind being worth saving. Which, relatedly: where exactly have you been the last 100 years, then? Some pretty bad shit went down.
- Eugene Brave Rock has the least material in the finished product of the various supporting characters who join Diana's mission, but even what's there is underserved by Brave Rock's performance. Every line reading from his sounds pretty much the same. Points for having a Native American character in a non-Western, though, and having him mention America's history of colonialism.
The movie holds up fantastically in rewatch. It was even better.
The fuck? I swear I haven't seen a level of casual sexism like this seems Ghostbusters. Women can't win.
The "I love you" bit should have been cut. Just leave it at "I wish we had more time".
BronsonLee
Member
I'm surprised they went back to it and put sound to it, I figured they would've stuck the knife in further with her never hearing him telling her he loved her
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
I am the one truth
I AM THE ROCKS OF THE ETERNAL SHORE
This is indeed a huge hole in the story right now. I'm guessing they just retcon this out of existence and make her loss of faith in humanity occur somewhere after or during WW2.
I mentioned the review thread that my ideal sequel would be a decades long journey of her experiencing just how badly things get from WW2 to at least the Cold War.
How is that sexism? The lack of female superhero movies (and the terrible quality of the few that have been made) have made this movie a political football. There's a lot of people who really, really want this to succeed. In my opinion, it's pretty good, but not high 90s good, relative to what other superhero films have been getting. But like I said, if people liked it more than I did, that's fine too.
NHarmonic.
Member
I mean, the dude was going to commit suicide. I kinda feel like the emotions he went through (considering that and the context of the battle that was happening) were too intense to refrain himself of saying that to Diana, specially after that last night.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
And they do that by showing her jumping/flying with a serious looking face towards a random ass nothingness, lol.
Is I Am Legend canon?
broncobuster
Banned
I feel like ultimately they don't care all that much about consistency with BvS at the expense of telling the story they want.
But my read is that Diana in BvS is a lot like Hippolyta in WW. Hippolyta isn't bad for staying out of the war. She had her reasons and Diana likely had hers. Perhaps Superman sacrificing himself, twice, helped snap her back from pragmatism.
I don't know. Patty talks about a sequel potentially in 1930s America. There could be more there.
But my read is that Diana in BvS is a lot like Hippolyta in WW. Hippolyta isn't bad for staying out of the war. She had her reasons and Diana likely had hers. Perhaps Superman sacrificing himself, twice, helped snap her back from pragmatism.
I don't know. Patty talks about a sequel potentially in 1930s America. There could be more there.
RoninChaos
Member
I completely enjoyed it. Gal Gadot was the best part. I have had so many arguments about her and that she was going to be great and she really embraced the best parts of a character who has been played many many ways in the last 75 years.
Bout time D.C. put out a good film.
Bout time D.C. put out a good film.
Not explicitly, but I think Clark Kent's obituary was 20th March 2016.
I thought the movie was great, definitely best DCEU movie so far, and hopefully a sign of things to come. Gal was awesome, she played an amazing role as an optimistic, hopeful hero who genuinely wants to believe the good in people and save them all. Chris Pine outdid his own Kirk by far. He was charming, witty, flawed, and always trying to show Diana what the world is really like but also rekindle her belief in humanity's good. His
scene was especially good, dude really made me feel feelings. My wife
, of course.
I see that DC/WB can do it. Please please please fix Superman now. There are already now two movie heroes that out-Superman Superman.
death
cried
I see that DC/WB can do it. Please please please fix Superman now. There are already now two movie heroes that out-Superman Superman.
BronsonLee
Member
Screw Superman and Batman, they're too far gone
Make it Diana-centric and leave those losers in the pile
Make it Diana-centric and leave those losers in the pile
Ya, but the line before that sort of said the same thing. It just seemed to be sort of out of character, just to get that goddess of love point across in the following bit.
It didn't ruin the scene or anything, I just think that it would have been stronger if they allowed the audience to connect the dots just a tad.
