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Overwatch |OT10| That'll do pig, that'll do

I know there's a lot of shitty Genji players out there, but as a character he is pretty damn good.

The top 5% of Hanzo players with >60 games played (or as much as any stats website can tell as of now) on the character have an average winrate of ~70%, compared to the a similar slice of Tracer and Genji players who have an average winrate of ~66% and 64% respectively. On ladder of course, not pro games where coordination can nullify most of the reasons you would run him over any other DPS (Zoning, high burst potential). I think he's fine.

There are obviously issues with relying entirely on statistics of course, but I think if Hanzo was a bad character we would see something more aligned with Junkrat's stats in this particular data set - who only has a 55% winrate amongst the top 5% of players with >60 games played - with adjustment due to the total pool of players being fairll small, for full disclaimer.
 
I don't see how any of you justify the Roadhog nerfs when he is already underutilized. He's just one less character to choose from now if you're trying to play competitively.

I assume he was one of the most picked characters in ranked overall, even in this season (not talking about tournaments).

https://pvplive.net/c/overwatchs-top-10-heroes-on-pc-versus-console

I can't find what I was looking for but that link shows that in the previous season he was one of the top picked heroes in basically every rank.

Guess that was the reason.

I didn't have any complaints about the hook, but I do admit that sometimes it was frustrating to be one-shotted by the alternate fire. I know it's not easy to pull it off, but it just felt random.

Guess it's time to wait for some buffs while playing other characters :'(
 

Sane_Man

Member
Where in my post was I getting riled up? You're the one that is constantly quoting everyone that says Road is unplayable then trying to justify the nerfs by comparing him to DVA. DVA has DM which is by far more oppressive than hook combo ever was or is.

So, I'm just going to assume that you're a lifetime high plat, low diamond player that constantly blames his teammates and "Elo hell" for you not climbing.

I got the sense you were riled up due to the fact that you went on the offensive and accused me of only being happy about Road nerfs because I'm out position based on nothing. You were the one making assumptions before I did, which you just did it again by mentioning D'Va when I literally haven't talked about her once in the Roadhog discussion. And I quoted a person once to give my thoughts on Roadhog and then only quoted people who were directly responding to me, so I don't know what you're talking about there.

I am a plat player and it's where I belong. I accept that. My experiences come from playing in that level and I can safely say in gold/plat Roadhog is overpowered. Not everything should be balanced to suit the smaller minority of high level players.
 

Anne

Member
not sure why blizzard didn't just change his m2 then. keep the m1 the same but reduce the damage on m2 and maybe up the shoot speed of m2 to compensate

The entire design of the gun/kit as a whole is just kinda terrible. Even if you changed the gun like that, he'd still have access to a ton of ways to one shot and they'd still be inconsistent. It's probably better to just nerf the fuck out of the one shot potential and then see where they can buff it from there. There's no way the balance team at Blizz didn't know he'd be significantly worse this patch, so I imagine they got some kind of plan like that in place.

Heroes like Roadhog cause an imbalance in lower/mid ranks and can carry a game without needing very much skill.

I don't think this is true. I think Roadhog at all ranks takes some skill to land hook or space himself. Sure, RNG gods are going to sometimes smile upon him, but it's not often enough or else his pickrate would be higher. I think it's more likely that lower level players don't have the skillset to offset the RNG or punish him for fishing too much. I also imagine it feels really shitty to die to him fishing with RNG when you feel like you're fighting him on even terms. It's why he's getting changed. That still doesn't stop him from being dogshit when balance starts to matter more though.
 

Alucrid

Banned
The entire design of the gun/kit as a whole is just kinda terrible. Even if you changed the gun like that, he'd still have access to a ton of ways to one shot and they'd still be inconsistent. It's probably better to just nerf the fuck out of the one shot potential and then see where they can buff it from there. There's no way the balance team at Blizz didn't know he'd be significantly worse this patch, so I imagine they got some kind of plan like that in place.

replace the hook with another scrap gun!

I got the sense you were riled up due to the fact that you went on the offensive and accused me of only being happy about Road nerfs because I'm out position based on nothing. Fairly safe assumption to make I think. You were the one making assumptions before I did, which you just did it again by mentioning D'Va when I literally haven't talked about her once in the Roadhog discussion. And I quoted a person once to give my thoughts on Roadhog and then only quoted people who were directly responding to me, so I don't know what you're talking about there.

I am a plat player and it's where I belong. I accept that. My experiences come from playing in that level and I can safely say in gold/plat Roadhog is overpowered. Not everything should be balanced to suit the smaller minority of high level players.

i'm a plat/diamond too. sure, it sucks when you get hooked and one shot, but at the same time i've never felt that it seems as unfair as something like defense matrix. he's even less of a threat now that zen is being played more often. i've seen far more dva and winston in my games than i have roadhog.
 

X-Frame

Member
Yeah, what caused her useage to drop like a rock? I thought she was a solid companion tank to Winston &/or D.Va?

She has no mobility and gets shat on by D.Va. I said something like this last week or so. If a character can't keep up with Winston/D.Va being everywhere on the map in an instant, they probably aren't worth picking right now at a tournament level. You only see them on maps and segments where that's not as much an issue. In soloq Zarya and shit is still totally fine since the coordination isn't there to control the map as effectively.

Yup. It's funny because when I was playing last in Season 2, D.Va was almost always neutralized by Zarya because her beam ignores Defense Matrix. That is still the case though ..

And yeah Zarya is still great on tight corridor maps or those with chokes. King's Row for example.
 

Nimby

Banned
New meta report.



Not enough diversity. Pretty lame.

Dive isn't always a good idea at lower ranks, lots of coordination and communication required to make that comp work. And then you get some that can effectively dive, but you get someone who is clueless and picks whatever. Still, I'm seeing so much more Winston in QP and in my ranked games.
 

Kain

Member
Let's not put hanzo and genji on the same level.

I know there's a lot of shitty genji players out there, but as a character he is pretty damn good.

It's not so much about the chars but about those goddamn kids (they are always kids) who pick up the arguably most difficult DPS to play as and completely piss the bed and drag the team down. It's so frustrating...
 

Anne

Member
Yup. It's funny because when I was playing last in Season 2, D.Va was almost always neutralized by Zarya because her beam ignores Defense Matrix. That is still the case though ..

So like, Zarya still deals a lot of damage to D.Va through DM, but whatever. Teams are so mobile now that D.Va doesn't have to actually sit face to face with Zarya like that, so it doesn't matter too much. Hell, even if Zarya got free laser time on D.Va it probably wouldn't matter because D.Va will be babysat to death.

All that matters now is that D.Va is uncatchable and you can't get a grav through DM anymore :/
 
Why isn't Sym a defence character?

If Symmetra dies a single time early, she throws the fight against a decent team. So it benefits a player to stay away from the front line in a "Support" role in order to guarantee an ult within the first checkpoint. Is what I've always thought. The real answer is probably, "Because Blizzard says so".
 

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
So like, Zarya still deals a lot of damage to D.Va through DM, but whatever. Teams are so mobile now that D.Va doesn't have to actually sit face to face with Zarya like that, so it doesn't matter too much. Hell, even if Zarya got free laser time on D.Va it probably wouldn't matter because D.Va will be babysat to death.

All that matters now is that D.Va is uncatchable and you can't get a grav through DM anymore :/

And they just removed the hook which was one of the best things against DM.

GJ Blizz.

I do agree with what you've been saying, there's no way they don't realize how much they just gutted him but man is it frustrating from the player PoV to basically have something like that ravaged with no update on what their direction even is. They're obviously doing more to RH in the future but I don't understand why they did this assy pathwork that gives him no role instead of waiting and throwing something more fleshed out on PTR. It's a bad look for the game to me.
 
You don't balance a team game around solo play. Otherwise Mercy needs a fucking huge buff.
Did I say that? I'm pretty sure I didn't. I was highlighting the hilarity of the idea that suddenly people are going to pay attention to hooks when they cant even stand behind a giant blue barrier right in front of them. Also there's nothing wrong with being reliant on a team. The problem is when a character who could function by themselves is suddenly forced to be reliant on their team and gets no new utility in exchange to bring to the table.
 
Dive isn't always a good idea at lower ranks, lots of coordination and communication required to make that comp work. And then you get some that can effectively dive, but you get someone who is clueless and picks whatever. Still, I'm seeing so much more Winston in QP and in my ranked games.

It's always worth a try, you have to remember that in the lower ranks, the other team is just as uncoordinated as yours. The strategy itself is simple, follow and support your damn tanks. Don't stay at the choke point trying to get kills, get the fuck in there. Sometimes the team doesn't go in and you hit the 2 minute warning, in which case you can either a.) force a pick on high priority target [mercy/main healer] or b.) switch off and play the choke point like your dumb team wants to.
 

Anne

Member
Blizzard need to create a new section for the heroes called "Utility", because Sombra and Sym definitely belong in that category.

They already kinda do this in HOTS. There are supports, then there are "specialists". I still don't think they quite got the categories right cause of how healing works though. It'd probably be a better fit in OW to just have specialists like Sombra, Torb, Sym, then have healers like Ana/Zen/Mercy/Lucio.
 
vTtXjaI.jpg




usually how I feel when i bust my ass and get all silvers as tank.
 

Nimby

Banned
It's always worth a try, you have to remember that in the lower ranks, the other team is just as uncoordinated as yours. The strategy itself is simple, follow and support your damn tanks. Don't stay at the choke point trying to get kills, get the fuck in there. Sometimes the team doesn't go in and you hit the 2 minute warning, in which case you can either a.) force a pick on high priority target [mercy/main healer] or b.) switch off and play the choke point like your dumb team wants to.

If you're team isn't supporting your dive, then they just feed. Like I can throw harmony/discord, heal w/ Mercy all I want, it won't do anything if I'm the only person helping our Winston. And the other team isn't always as uncoordinated, I may obviously get a team with no one on the mic, and the other team has all 6.
 

Paltheos

Member
I've had two problems with Roadhog.

1) M2 was bullshit. Whether I was playing as or against Roadhog, one-shotting a hero with an ability with no cooldown (other than reloading) as a tank was not fair and didn't feel satisfying.
2) His health pool was sometimes a bit much. If I was in trouble I could often vape to delay for hook to come off cooldown or for a teammate to come help me (as I can usually dive behind cover) and that didn't seem particularly fair, especially if I'd missed my hook. And on the flip side when I'm attacking, if I'm blasting a Roadhog in the face repeatedly, I feel like I've kinda won already! This one may just be bad decision-making on my part though. The only thing I'm confident in saying is crap is M2 was one-shotting.

Hook->M1 combo, by itself, was never an issue though. Heck, man, 2.0 hook means you've gotta be out in the open now too if you're getting hooked. I've mostly been goofing around with McCree and Reaper though. I'll put more time into Hog.

. . . Genji deflects it.

This generally shouldn't happen, actually! I've been learning recently that Genjis don't react to hook, they react to an attack by Roadhog, so I melee to bait out the deflect, watch as the Genji uselessly deflects, and then hook as the deflect ends so he doesn't swift strike away (which they're ofc mashing so the timing's pretty strict)

No one likes losing to one move. It's brain dead.

The 2 reactions to the nerfs are VERY similar. DVA was considered trash after her nerfs. Player got good and adapted. If you want easy kills, pick an actual DPS. If you want a 900 health hero that hits like a truck, can pull a character towards your team(which by all accounts is an instant death), with an ultimate that can wipe a team out you pick Roadhog.

Reductionism Man away~!
 
Yup. It's funny because when I was playing last in Season 2, D.Va was almost always neutralized by Zarya because her beam ignores Defense Matrix. That is still the case though ..

And yeah Zarya is still great on tight corridor maps or those with chokes. King's Row for example.

D.Va was played more in-your-face-bully back then. So when Zarya showed up in D.Va's face, things got ugly. Now D.Va's an off-angle defensive tank, which gives her a lot more room to escape. Plus they nerfed Zarya's charge, and a low-energy Zarya isn't really that terrifying to a D.Va.
 
You know who I've always liked? Hanzo. I think I'll be a Hanzo main now that Roadhog was put to rest.

They already kinda do this in HOTS. There are supports, then there are "specialists". I still don't think they quite got the categories right cause of how healing works though. It'd probably be a better fit in OW to just have specialists like Sombra, Torb, Sym, then have healers like Ana/Zen/Mercy/Lucio.
I think HotS and OW both suffer from category issues. HotS has a minor one - the "Specialist" category should just be deleted, and Varian should be called a "Warrior" like he is (his design in general bothers me - why does he get to choose between damage and tanking while no other character does?).

In Overwatch, there's this entire shitty category of "defense" characters that are largely not worth picking. I would prefer to see Overwatch delete this category, and rework half of the defense characters to be "support" (healing and/or damage negation), and the other half moved to offense.

Blizzard need to create a new section for the heroes called "Utility", because Sombra and Sym definitely belong in that category.
That's just creating more useless categories that confuse people during team construction. When do you pick a "utility"? Most people won't know. It makes more sense to rework Sombra and Symmetra to be real support characters.

No one likes losing to one move. It's brain dead.

The 2 reactions to the nerfs are VERY similar. DVA was considered trash after her nerfs. Player got good and adapted. If you want easy kills, pick an actual DPS. If you want a 900 health hero that hits like a truck, can pull a character towards your team(which by all accounts is an instant death), with an ultimate that can wipe a team out you pick Roadhog.
Each character has like 3 attacks maximum. We are all losing to "one move" - lol.

D.va was nigh unanimous in competitive play before her nerf because she was ridiculously overpowered. Roadhog was tier 4 in pick rate and still got nerfed. Get the difference?

Also, that list of yours is mostly fabrication. Roadhog doesn't hit like a truck anymore, he doesn't have 900 health (LOL), and his ultimate is one of the worst in the game in terms of "wiping out a team" - if you can burn your ultimate to kill a character or two from a wall pin, that's usually a good use of it.

Also, the ability for Roadhog to get hooks is almost entirely based on his ability to flank. Against skilled players, you very rarely get hooks by standing in with your team because everyone knows you are right there. You have to move around and try to find angles to get hooks on people that are awake, and you can't do that while also asking your team to travel with you - get it?
 

Anne

Member
D.Va post nerf actually was pretty bad though. She didn't see a huge uptick in play until they buffed the hell out of DM.
 

Kain

Member
D.Va post nerf actually was pretty bad though. She didn't see a huge uptick in play until they buffed the hell out of DM.

Yep, I'm expecting some kind of buff for Hog because of this. Maybe changing how the spread shot works or even some damage boost to the hook seeing as hooking people now seems less rewarding.
 

aBarreras

Member
can someone tell what were the changes? im pretty far new to overwatch,

i noticed that reaper now has life steal but that was because my brother point it out

and roadhog doesnt have an instant kill with hook plus shot
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
I love this patch the amount of shitty roadhog players going off on their own over and over thinking he is a flank hero ignoring the team and giving the enemy team a ton of ult has gone down significantly.

"I GOT A PICK GUYZ"

great wonderful but now it's 5v5 and they have ult advantage
 

HMD

Member
So if I'm playing D.va and I'm not getting gold elims, Am I playing her badly? My friends keep telling me that D.va should always have gold elims or switch. That I should be chipping away at enemies all the time and DM whenever it's absolutely needed.

I mainly DM like 40% of the time, and try to harass soldiers on high ground and pharahs with my boost, I rarely actively hunt for kills. What do the D.va experts think?
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I just used Roadhog for the first time since the patch, in 3v3 elimination. Holy fuck, I assumed you lot were being slightly hyperbolic but holy fuck!

Hook a Zenyatta, shoot him, nothing! He survives and I'm shooting like a mad man trying to put him down. Just about managed it. Then I grab Soldier. Shoot him. Nothing. This time I just get sprayed to death.

I'm not a big Roadhog user, I used to get real fucking annoyed about being killed by him, but this is just too much. Roadhog mains must be furious.

According to this Zenyatta's still a one shot.

Pharah, Tracer, McCree, and Torb are the others. Soldier too if the spread RNG is good for you.
 
So if I'm playing D.va and I'm not getting gold elims, Am I playing her badly? My friends keep telling me that D.va should always have gold elims or switch. That I should be chipping away at enemies all the time and DM whenever it's absolutely needed.

I mainly DM like 40% of the time, and try to harass soldiers on high ground and pharahs with my boost, I rarely actively hunt for kills. What do the D.va experts think?

Your friends are generally wrong here. Just focus on DMing on your supports when they get dived or DM your own dive heroes when they go in. D.VA gets a lot of elims similar to Winston from her chip damage, but that just shows you how useless gold medals can be besides the fact that eliminations are not the most important representation of how well a D.Va is playing.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
So if I'm playing D.va and I'm not getting gold elims, Am I playing her badly? My friends keep telling me that D.va should always have gold elims or switch. That I should be chipping away at enemies all the time and DM whenever it's absolutely needed.

I mainly DM like 40% of the time, and try to harass soldiers on high ground and pharahs with my boost, I rarely actively hunt for kills. What do the D.va experts think?

Elims doesnt mean you killed them, it's more of a active damage on heroes being killed thing.
Your friends are generally wrong here. Just focus on DMing on your supports when they get dived or DM your own dive heroes when they go in. D.VA gets a lot of elims similar to Winston from her chip damage, but that just shows you how useless gold medals can be besides the fact that eliminations are not the most important representation of how well a D.Va is playing.
Yup, gold medals can be misleading. A junkrat with gold damage and no medals elims is actually hurting the team in most cases
 

LiK

Member
So if I'm playing D.va and I'm not getting gold elims, Am I playing her badly? My friends keep telling me that D.va should always have gold elims or switch. That I should be chipping away at enemies all the time and DM whenever it's absolutely needed.

I mainly DM like 40% of the time, and try to harass soldiers on high ground and pharahs with my boost, I rarely actively hunt for kills. What do the D.va experts think?

DM is the main reason she's awesome. Tell your friends they're clueless. Kills are nice but that's not her primary objective. That's reserved for DPS aka Assault class.
 

Alucrid

Banned
So if I'm playing D.va and I'm not getting gold elims, Am I playing her badly? My friends keep telling me that D.va should always have gold elims or switch. That I should be chipping away at enemies all the time and DM whenever it's absolutely needed.

I mainly DM like 40% of the time, and try to harass soldiers on high ground and pharahs with my boost, I rarely actively hunt for kills. What do the D.va experts think?

are you winning? if so it doesn't matter. are you losing? if so it could be any number of things among you or your teammates.
 

rulerk1

Member
i've been team anti DM since season 3 lol. But i've been using D.va since then so its a great ability and can definitely turn a team fight! Love it!
 

MCD

Junior Member
As a Bastion (lol) and Tracer main you guys have no idea how much I LOATH D.va's DM.

Absolutely disgusting.
 
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