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[Raging Spaniard]

Hi Anth0ny, don't be mad, now that I got you here.

I don't want to tell you how to play or what to do with your favorite game. I enjoyed melee a great deal, you know, ten or so years ago. However, I get the impression that the only time I hear about Melee nowadays is because the top players are complaining about lack of support or theres a new character specific exploit.

Thats obviously not a sign of a healthy scene. It seems like if you wanted to become a pro Melee player you wouldn't necessarily have to learn how to be good at Smash Bros, but rather learn how to break the game. Thats not something you see in other fighting games or competitive games much (granted, modern games have an active support system from devs so that bugs and exploits can be patched up)

So if Melee is your jam and me asking this question is making you angry ... what do you think should be the next move? I think continuing to explore what this game has to offer is only going to show more bugs and more exploits,, and I don't think that's a good way to bring in a bigger audience. If Nintendo was going to support the scene, they would probably make a Melee remaster for the Switch, but you know they would fix a lot of the exploits in the game, so ... do you want that? Do you like that only 2 or 3 players keep winning the big tournaments? Do you think I'm just overreacting and everything is fine and dandy?

 

[Holy Order Sol]

It seems like if you wanted to become a pro Melee player you wouldn't necessarily have to learn how to be good at Smash Bros, but rather learn how to break the game.

making a distinction where there's none regardless of game

 

[Harken Raiser]

I'm not into Melee, but I'd say that it's a lot healthier than most other 16 year old games.

 

[Anne]

Thats obviously not a sign of a healthy scene. It seems like if you wanted to become a pro Melee player you wouldn't necessarily have to learn how to be good at Smash Bros, but rather learn how to break the game. Thats not something you see in other fighting games or competitive games much (granted, modern games have an active support system from devs so that bugs and exploits can be patched up)

I don't care much about this topic, but this statement is wrong on so many different levels. For the most part, any competitive game hits a point where it reaches end game or is "broken" to some extent. That doesn't change the fact that there is a lot more to playing than just mastering some insane technique. In any game worth playing for over a decade, you're probably looking at players playing around that type of stuff to various degrees.

There are a lot of fighting games, new and old, that are just as busted if not more so than what Melee is. A game being broken like that doesn't really affect a scene. You should probably talk less about how "broken" the game is, and probably look more at what happens to competitive communities when a game reaches "end state". Brood War is a pretty good example if you want some history reading. For fighting games, MvC2 is *kinda* a good example, but it's debatable if that game had the support to ever really hit that point.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

I don't care much about this topic, but this statement is wrong on so many different levels. For the most part, any competitive game hits a point where it reaches end game or is "broken" to some extent. That doesn't change the fact that there is a lot more to playing than just mastering some insane technique. In any game worth playing for over a decade, you're probably looking at players playing around that type of stuff to various degrees.

There are a lot of fighting games, new and old, that are just as busted if not more so than what Melee is. A game being broken like that doesn't really affect a scene. You should probably talk less about how "broken" the game is, and probably look more at what happens to competitive communities when a game reaches "end state". Brood War is a pretty good example if you want some history reading. For fighting games, MvC2 is *kinda* a good example, but it's debatable if that game had the support to ever really hit that point.

Starcraft still gets patches though, SF III needed a 3rd strike in order to fix all the bugs and add the polish it needed. Melee was a one time release and it was done, so its under really unique circumstances when compared to its peers int he scene.

My way of looking at things may be wrong, but its the way some people are going to look at it.

 

[Theosmeo]

Hi Anth0ny, don't be mad, now that I got you here.

I don't want to tell you how to play or what to do with your favorite game. I enjoyed melee a great deal, you know, ten or so years ago. However, I get the impression that the only time I hear about Melee nowadays is because the top players are complaining about lack of support or theres a new character specific exploit.

Thats obviously not a sign of a healthy scene. It seems like if you wanted to become a pro Melee player you wouldn't necessarily have to learn how to be good at Smash Bros, but rather learn how to break the game. Thats not something you see in other fighting games or competitive games much (granted, modern games have an active support system from devs so that bugs and exploits can be patched up)

So if Melee is your jam and me asking this question is making you angry ... what do you think should be the next move? I think continuing to explore what this game has to offer is only going to show more bugs and more exploits,, and I don't think that's a good way to bring in a bigger audience. If Nintendo was going to support the scene, they would probably make a Melee remaster for the Switch, but you know they would fix a lot of the exploits in the game, so ... do you want that? Do you like that only 2 or 3 players keep winning the big tournaments? Do you think I'm just overreacting and everything is fine and dandy?

You still need to be good at smash to be good at melee though. The skills of a solid neutral translate from game to game. A player like Mike Haze who started in Brawl and moved to melee was able to fit in well because of his knowledge of fundamentals. The broken options in the game are basically new moves. A waveshine for example is just an attack and then a slide, something that is in many games. Theyre not playing a games based on glitches. And those 2-3 players that keep winning everything would still win if all the advanced techniques were out of the game because of how good they are

 

[MutFox]

Just like the other scenes, you've got to move on to the developers new iteration if you want to be supported.
Pro's from other fighting games are not always 100% happy with the new game,
but they move on for the good of the developer, the support and to not split the community.

Just look at the current Pro's from Street Fighter 5,
Some go back many iterations, as far as SF2.
That there is support.

Support the developer, they'll support you.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

I don't want to tell you how to play or what to do with your favorite game. I enjoyed melee a great deal, you know, ten or so years ago. However, I get the impression that the only time I hear about Melee nowadays is because the top players are complaining about lack of support or theres a new character specific exploit.

the reason you see it like that is because you don't play melee and you aren't engaged with the community. you might want to acknowledge that your own viewpoint might be skewed.
yes, you are overreacting. your post reads like you're totally unfamiliar with competitive Melee.
Melee is big particularly because it's so accessible, and because well-honed fundamentals will get you much further than ATs and tricks.

 

[MajinSweet4]

Starcraft still gets patches though, SF III needed a 3rd strike in order to fix all the bugs and add the polish it needed. Melee was a one time release and it was done, so its under really unique circumstances when compared to its peers int he scene.

My way of looking at things may be wrong, but its the way some people are going to look at it.

Melee is good because it doesn't get patched. Not in spite of it. People talk about patches for fighting games from a theoretical point of view where it's used perfectly. It never works out that way. The vast majority of time, people complain about something, it gets changed, then people complain about the changes. The truth of the matter is that it can take years, even for experienced players to truly break down a fighting game.

 

[Anne]

Starcraft still gets patches though, SF III needed a 3rd strike in order to fix all the bugs and add the polish it needed. Melee was a one time release and it was done, so its under really unique circumstances when compared to its peers int he scene.

My way of looking at things may be wrong, but its the way some people are going to look at it.

I don't think you get the fact that games like BW or 3S went for several years without patches while they still developed and changed. 3S is arguably worse off as a result because that game has issues.

Anyways, BW's last balance patch was really sometime around 2001. The rest of the game balance was handled by community created maps along with the normal metagaming that happens when games last that long. Melee is actually kind of similar in the sense the community created map bans in response to imbalances in tournaments. So for the last 16 years Brood War didn't change that much, while the community playing it pushed on along towards whatever the end game might be.

The result of that was a lot of the same people winning tournaments while it was next to impossible for new talent to catch up to a point where they could even think of touching the metagame. Sound familiar? That's competitive Melee. There's a precedent like that in a few other games, the first of which actually being Chess, but no video game has gotten close to that level of horseshit.

What's most likely to happen is either Melee dies out because it can't change format and keep up with some type of broadcaster, or a more entertainment focused small scale format comes around that advertisers can hit up. With Nintendo being Nintendo, the latter isn't likely to happen.

Again, I'm just saying you're looking at things wrong because, well, you're just saying things that don't line up with the history of games we already have. You should learn about that if you're going to talk about the life cycles of competitive games. The actual meaningful part of this discussion has little to do with the game honestly,.It has to do with the history of how other games dealt with this issue and whether or not Melee is a position to do something similar. It's probably why the top players are looking for Nintendo's approval. There's really nowhere else to go from here without them at least greenlighting larger opportunities.

Just like the other scenes, you've got to move on to the developers new iteration if you want to be supported.
Pro's from other fighting games are not always 100% happy with the new game,
but they move on for the good of the developer, the support and to not split the community.

Just look at the current Pro's from Street Fighter 5,
Some go back many iterations, as far as SF2.
That there is support.

Support the developer, they'll support you.

This is another case of not understanding the history with these types of communities. Anybody even remotely familiar with what's going with Melee will tell you things just don't work like that.

 

[Cody_D165]

Support the developer, they'll support you.

lol when it comes to smash this hasn't ever been the case

 

[Shamrock7r]

What the Melee community has accomplished is incredibly impressive, but maybe the reality is setting in, that over time, it will become more and more of a niche. Not just because of new Smash games, but other new iterations of fighting games that will take center stage at popular tournaments. Melee's longevity was partly because Brawl was a bore to watch most of the time. Smash4 has a much better viewing experience, from a fan perspective.

If Nintendo does decide to throw more support towards Smash Bros. as an esports, let's be honest, it is going to be for new iterations, not Melee. The only way competitive Melee stays at the forefront is with an re-release.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

So what then? Scene is fine and dandy? Things are growing and getting better?

If its as simple as a relative outsider looking at things the wrong way, thats simple enough! However, I'll be surprised if in 3 years more people are playing Melee unless something changes a lot.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

So what then? Scene is fine and dandy? Things are growing and getting better?

If its as simple as a relative outsider looking at things the wrong way, thats simple enough! However, I'll be surprised if in 3 years more people are playing Melee unless something changes a lot.

Does that really matter, though? Melee really isn't a growing scene, it's just a scene that's managed to keep itself alive and popular enough for nearly 20 years. Smash 4 ate into it's popularity more than anything else due to being a much better competitive game than Brawl, and the next smash will likely eat into it's audience as well, until eventually it becomes super niche. That's the most likely future. But it's had a good run.

 

[MajinSweet4]

So what then? Scene is fine and dandy? Things are growing and getting better?

Uh, yeah. Melee is bigger than it's ever been right now. Tournaments get more entrants. More tournaments per year. More high level players are streaming and getting more viewers than before.

If its as simple as a relative outsider looking at things the wrong way, thats simple enough! However, I'll be surprised if in 3 years more people are playing Melee unless something changes a lot.

Your perspective on this situation is waaay off base. Let's say Melee completely dies in 3 years. Like, the game isn't even played in tournament anymore. That would mean Melee is maybe the most successful game ever in terms of tournament play. Conversely, we have new fighting games come out all the time that would kill to have a 3 year run with Melee numbers. Absolutely kill for it.

 

[Anne]

So what then? Scene is fine and dandy? Things are growing and getting better?

If its as simple as a relative outsider looking at things the wrong way, thats simple enough! However, I'll be surprised if in 3 years more people are playing Melee unless something changes a lot.

I just said there aren't going to be many new people hopping into the scene. That's a problem. There are solutions to it, but a lot of it is outside of the communities hands and more in the realm of broadcasters and Nintendo. On the community level some things can happen too of course. You can try to start cultivating that type of talent with events based around spectating with league play. That shift is kind of moot though if Nintendo is going to step in when big boy money is on the table. Hence, pros begging Nintendo to recognize they are trying to make something of it.

Hell, things actually aren't even dire yet. Most pros just now the reality of what's going to need to happen and wanna prepare for the possibilities.

 

[ckaneo]

Community only supported? Yes.

 

[SalvaPot]

I feel the Melee community doesn't know what they want.

They want support from Nintendo, but they don't want Nintendo to influence their scene on anyway.

They want bigger pots, but they don't want the level of Corporate presence this will bring with the pot.

They want eSports representation, but they don't want their top players "selling out" to the biggest sponsors or selling stuff.

And they want Melee HD, but they don't want the game to be changed at all. They want the same exact game with no input lag, no hitbox adjustments, no character buffs or nerfs, and full support for the gamecube controller (This last one is obvious to me).

And they want to remain grassroots when the scene has inevitably grown larger and larger to the point professional administration is essential. Every week there is a new logistical scandal because they try to keep running 100+ tournaments like you run friendlies.

And, inevitably, the top players will retire one by one, and the new blood is going to diminish. The game is highly technical and time consuming at the level is at, PPMD for example hasn't entered a singles tournament in a while because he feels he lacks the stamina for it, half the players have suffered hand injuries, and the competes always will compete with the newer, more accessible Smash game to attract new players.

As an spectator game, Melee is amazing and top of the line. It has to be, its been played at the highest level for more than a decade and you won't see movement that crisp in any other game. But it will get more and more niche and it should reach the point where its only played by few.

But who knows, emulation, the wii and the constant flow of Gamecube controllers can keep the game alive, and its high ceiling will keep people playing it. As long as people are watching, people will be playing it.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

As long as Smash 4 is the newest Smash game, Melee and Smash 64 tournaments will exist. If there's a new Smash that actually feels good for all crowds to play, then maybe people will finally make that jump.

It's not like everyone who plays Melee or 64 don't want to play new Smash games; it's that they're just not as fun to play comparatively.

 

[IamDodongo]

I mean, we'll have Melee HD with online play eventually. That should scratch the itch for another 20 years or so.

 

[Smasher89]

It does, Melee will get it's place in the Esport Olympics when that happens.

That said, the community needs a rerelease of the game to be able to better use the current growth, right now it's probably common to get new players to get the game emulated one way or another.
Sure it still sells GC controllers, but Nintendo would benefit more with more sold games too. Considering it was the last game Iwata was programming on, it was a great game that might be hard to replicate, and I bet the reason for no rerelease is something with licenses on the trophies.

 

[mebizzle]

As long as Smash 4 is the newest Smash game, Melee and Smash 64 tournaments will exist. If there's a new Smash that actually feels good for all crowds to play, then maybe people will finally make that jump.

It's not like everyone who plays Melee or 64 don't want to play new Smash games; it's that they're just not as fun to play comparatively.

That's the thing though, is that the Melee crowd DOESNT want to play new Smash games, they want a new Melee. The things they like about that game are things the developer's did not want Smash Bros to be and took the series in a different direction.

I was under the impression that there were some indie devs trying to make new gen games in the Melee style, why haven't those gotten any attention? They're not Melee.

 

[emb]

So what then? Scene is fine and dandy? Things are growing and getting better?

If its as simple as a relative outsider looking at things the wrong way, thats simple enough! However, I'll be surprised if in 3 years more people are playing Melee unless something changes a lot.

It's definitely fine and dandy for now, yes. Is it on the decline? Probably a slow one, yes. It showed huge growth in 2013-15, but it doesn't seem like we're breaking our records for attendance/viewers so much these days.

It still has years left in it. So many people are invested in it, from top players to local hopefuls, tournament organizers to esports teams and commentators. A lot of people really like it, though yes, sure, they're getting older.

Like anything, it will eventually die. All of us will die eventually, but we don't let that stop us from doing stuff. If anyone's worried about getting into Melee because of concern for its future, then stop being silly and get into it.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

That's the thing though, is that the Melee crowd DOESNT want to play new Smash games, they want a new Melee. The things they like about that game are things the developer's did not want Smash Bros to be and took the series in a different direction.

I was under the impression that there were some indie devs trying to make new gen games in the Melee style, why haven't those gotten any attention? They're not Melee.

Rivals of Aether is pretty successful for what it is, but it's definitely not Melee. The audience is too small for even indie devs to invest in without trying to appeal to a larger market.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

That's the thing though, is that the Melee crowd DOESNT want to play new Smash games, they want a new Melee. The things they like about that game are things the developer's did not want Smash Bros to be and took the series in a different direction.

I was under the impression that there were some indie devs trying to make new gen games in the Melee style, why haven't those gotten any attention? They're not Melee.

You're casting an umbrella over the entirety of people who play Melee. It's not just because those games aren't Melee; there's more to it than that, like Nintendo characters and top notch presentation.

Also, I think you'd see a lot of people move on, maybe not everyone, if the gameplay wasn't subpar. And I'm not even the biggest fan of Melee's gameplay mechanics as I'm more a fan of 64's simplicity, so if Smash 5 wasn't just Brawl 3.0 but rather shared more in common with the first two games, then more might be receptive to it.

 

[Sami+]

Melee at EVO 2016:

Viewership: 232,000

Melee at Genesis 4 (2017 Smash Only Tournament):

Viewership: 118,000

Melee at Royal Flush 2017 (Smash Only Tournament) Viewership: 78,000
Smash Summit Spring 2017 Viewership: 59,000
Smash 'n' Splash 3 (2017): 51,000

Viewership is consistently higher than Smash 4's and the biggest tournaments are consistent (or up slightly) compared to last year.

Melee's doing fine.

But a Melee HD would be nice because we wouldn't have to lug CRT's around anymore.

 

[FriskyrumX]

Yes, it still has a future and has been getting more and more recognition in bigger tournaments every year and more and more viewership every year. Melee is doing fine.

Also

or theres a new character specific exploit.

What you call a exploit, the competitive players call a new technique to master and use in tournaments. The scene has been doing this for years.

I don't get where you're getting this "unhealthy scene" from.

 

[Sami+]

That's the thing though, is that the Melee crowd DOESNT want to play new Smash games, they want a new Melee. The things they like about that game are things the developer's did not want Smash Bros to be and took the series in a different direction.

I was under the impression that there were some indie devs trying to make new gen games in the Melee style, why haven't those gotten any attention? They're not Melee.

Everybody moved on to Project M several years ago and it enjoyed a lot of popularity. The Project M developers are working on an indie title right now but we don't have much information on it yet and it's a long way from release. Rivals of Aether has a similar playstyle to Melee - it's played by a lot of Melee players on their own streams, and is often hosted at Smash tournaments with its own side stream. I'm not playing it personally because Melee is already hard and already really fun and I don't really have the time to dedicate to both, and I also just don't really care about the art style. I'd also rather play as Fox McCloud or Peach than some beetle looking guy called Kragg. But that's me. It's still fairly popular for an indie fighting game and the Smash community has put in a lot of support.

But to argue your point, Project M has already proven you wrong years ago. The reason Melee players largely dropped it is because it got banned from Twitch and Nintendo refused to support any tournaments that hosted it - and Melee enjoyed a resurgence around the same time because of EVO 2013 and the documentary.

 

[mebizzle]

You're casting an umbrella over the entirety of people who play Melee. It's not just because those games aren't Melee; there's more to it than that, like Nintendo characters and top notch presentation.

Also, I think you'd see a lot of people move on, maybe not everyone, if the gameplay wasn't subpar. And I'm not even the biggest fan of Melee's gameplay mechanics as I'm more a fan of 64's simplicity, so if Smash 5 wasn't just Brawl 3.0 but rather shared more in common with the first two games, then more might be receptive to it.

But the new game isnt "subpar" in any context other than comparing it to what you think is superior about Melee. I'm not a competitive Smash player, but to me Smash 4 is definitely Smash Bros and a really fun game.

 

[kunonabi]

Starcraft still gets patches though, SF III needed a 3rd strike in order to fix all the bugs and add the polish it needed. Melee was a one time release and it was done, so its under really unique circumstances when compared to its peers int he scene.

My way of looking at things may be wrong, but its the way some people are going to look at it.

SFIII honestly need a fourth version as 3S still had glaring issues.

 

[Acerac]

It fascinates me how much Melee's continued play annoys some people.

 

[collige]

New tech discoveries aren't exploits, they're how the metagame progresses. The game is working as intended.

 

[mebizzle]

But to argue your point, Project M has already proven you wrong years ago. The reason Melee players largely dropped it is because it got banned from Twitch and Nintendo refused to support any tournaments that hosted it - and Melee enjoyed a resurgence around the same time because of EVO 2013 and the documentary.

How does that prove my point wrong though? The entire reason Project M existed was to make Brawl play like Melee, it even said that on the home page

 

[FriskyrumX]

It fascinates me how much Melee's continued play annoys some people.

Pretty much. Both Smash 4 and Melee are watched by ton of people on either side, they can coexist, just don't get how some people wish Melee would die and all that because they're sick of hearing about it.

 

[Dyle]

Melee is doing fine. If the scene feels a bit subdued right now, it's because the second golden age of Smash ended recently and the game has entered a less exciting stage of maturity. There's still tons of big, exciting changes and developments going on and Evo will be huge as always, even though Smash 4 has the big stage on Sunday. There's some, imo not dangerous, worry about some of the developments in controller tech that the scene is facing, i.e. Smashbox, Hax's controller mods that make controllers more consistent.

But with Evo coming up there's a lot of big events on the horizon and plenty of enthusiasm in the community. Melee will be just fine for at least a couple years more, the scene has lasted more than 15 years so far, and it's got plenty of gas in the tank.

 

[Anne]

But the new game isnt "subpar" in any context other than comparing it to what you think is superior about Melee. I'm not a competitive Smash player, but to me Smash 4 is definitely Smash Bros and a really fun game.

Subpar is probably the wrong word for it. They're just drastically different in enough ways that they create two completely different types of experiences when you get to a remotely competitive level.

I mean, they are over a decade apart from each other with completely different goals and interests. It's pretty hard to compare the two other than they share a template and characters.

I don't like Melee very much if at all honestly. I like Smash 4 a lot more. At the same time, I don't think either is really better than the other. They just offer very different things to diff players.

 

[GamerJM]

Tournament entry numbers were rising up until this year, wherein things have kind of been stabilizing at relatively high numbers (compared to other fighting games).

You could see top Melee players as "breaking," the game I guess, but they're really just taking advantage of the game's physics engine. It's not really all to different from competitive speedrunning, which is also relatively healthy.

The worst thing the scene DOES admittedly have going for it, though, is that most mid-level tournaments lose money. Notably this year CEO Dreamland lost money. Big tournaments like Genesis and Big House aren't going anywhere though. So it is possible we could see less tournaments-per-year for the game, but it's otherwise really healthy, with a big passionate community and serious sponsorships.

 

[mebizzle]

It fascinates me how much Melee's continued play annoys some people.

Because when you try to have fun and play party games with people and you have a subset that sit there and refuse to play anything but the multiple versions old game because they're really good at it and don't want to play a slower game you tend to sour on the entire concept.

Id have a completely different opinion on Melee's prolific popularity if it tended to be a positive thing, but it doesn't so that's why I feel the way I do.

 

[udivision]

Oddly enough, this is the worst fighting game to ask the question for I feel.

Street Fighter 5, KoF14, Inustice 2, Tekken 7, Guilty Gear, DBZ, etc... all of those games are going to be dead in the water after their shiny new versions come out.

With publisher support comes publisher pressure to kick your old stuff to the curb.

Melee, unlike SF4, Injustice 1, the previous MK, KoF13,,etc... has survived 2 sequels and probably could survive another.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

But the new game isnt "subpar" in any context other than comparing it to what you think is superior about Melee. I'm not a competitive Smash player, but to me Smash 4 is definitely Smash Bros and a really fun game.

Right, I'm directly comparing it to the first two games in the context of what people who still play those games think. You may think Smash 4 plays great, but to anyone still playing a great deal of 64 or Melee, it is most certainly subpar.

That's not to say Smash 4 isn't a high quality game, but it's just not what those fans want from a new entry. Smash 4 is the Xenoverse to 64's/Melee's Dragon Ball FighterZ.

 

[FriskyrumX]

Because when you try to have fun and play party games with people and you have a subset that sit there and refuse to play anything but the multiple versions old game because they're really good at it and don't want to play a slower game you tend to sour on the entire concept.

Id have a completely different opinion on Melee's prolific popularity if it tended to be a positive thing, but it doesn't so that's why I feel the way I do.

So you get sour because people prefer the gameplay of the other because they like it a lot more? So what? I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Smasher89]

But the new game isnt "subpar" in any context other than comparing it to what you think is superior about Melee. I'm not a competitive Smash player, but to me Smash 4 is definitely Smash Bros and a really fun game.

Sure, but the reason the matches you see are usually game 5 last stock, is the rage mechanic, and not necessarily really strong play(if you value good positioning, low committing safe but executionbased play), they cleaned up a bit of the mess rage creates, but there is still some insanely powerful rage stuff that there is not a decent way to play around which will show up in the coming years, unless s4dx rumor is true.


Another thing, Nintendo does support it in a way, imagine if the GC controller got discontinued 10 years ago.

 

[Sami+]

And, inevitably, the top players will retire one by one, and the new blood is going to diminish. The game is highly technical and time consuming at the level is at, PPMD for example hasn't entered a singles tournament in a while because he feels he lacks the stamina for it, half the players have suffered hand injuries, and the competes always will compete with the newer, more accessible Smash game to attract new players.

I don't really agree with this post because I generally dislike the "___ don't know what they want" notion that gets echoed about so many different things on here and is mostly a result of people choosing to blanket entire communities and don't acknowledge that different individuals are allowed to have varying opinions.

The reason I quoted this though is because I think it's incredibly disrespectful to misconstrue PPMD's medical history as part of your narrative about Melee's longevity. He's spoken openly about suffering from low testosterone and how that's negatively affected his entire lifestyle not only including Melee but also prohibiting him from running like he used to. He's also stated that he's wanted to return to Melee for years now and will be as soon as he feels he's fully recovered from his illness. You can believe what you want to believe about Melee but using that as an example of the game being too straining is fucking grimy.

 

[MajinSweet4]

Because when you try to have fun and play party games with people and you have a subset that sit there and refuse to play anything but the multiple versions old game because they're really good at it and don't want to play a slower game you tend to sour on the entire concept.

Id have a completely different opinion on Melee's prolific popularity if it tended to be a positive thing, but it doesn't so that's why I feel the way I do.

Uh what? Pretty sure if a group of people want to have a get together and play Smash 4 with items on, tournament level Melee players arn't going to break the door in and stop them. This idea that people who want to get good at Melee somehow effects casuals is nonsense.

 

[Jigolo]

Hi Anth0ny, don't be mad, now that I got you here.

I don't want to tell you how to play or what to do with your favorite game. I enjoyed melee a great deal, you know, ten or so years ago. However, I get the impression that the only time I hear about Melee nowadays is because the top players are complaining about lack of support or theres a new character specific exploit.

Thats obviously not a sign of a healthy scene. It seems like if you wanted to become a pro Melee player you wouldn't necessarily have to learn how to be good at Smash Bros, but rather learn how to break the game. Thats not something you see in other fighting games or competitive games much (granted, modern games have an active support system from devs so that bugs and exploits can be patched up)

So if Melee is your jam and me asking this question is making you angry ... what do you think should be the next move? I think continuing to explore what this game has to offer is only going to show more bugs and more exploits,, and I don't think that's a good way to bring in a bigger audience. If Nintendo was going to support the scene, they would probably make a Melee remaster for the Switch, but you know they would fix a lot of the exploits in the game, so ... do you want that? Do you like that only 2 or 3 players keep winning the big tournaments? Do you think I'm just overreacting and everything is fine and dandy?

For somebody that doesn't follow Melee very much, I find it weird that you've only somehow come across information that you perceive as bad news.

I generally keep up on smash news everyday and never saw the new tech option at the ledge for Peach until today. That's relatively minor news. We don't even know if it has any practical use in a real match, as in can be done consistently. The most this will do is move her spot on the tier list but how does that even impact the Melee community? I don't think this new tech impacts the "healthiness" of the scene in the slightest. If I'm understanding this right, what you're saying is that if new tech found is found in the game it's bad. This is the weirdest thing.

Also Hbox (read: 1 top player, one) complained about getting no support from Nintendo and it made gaming blog news for some reason. I thought it was weird because this isn't the first time he has called out Nintendo and is really the only player I can think of that does it once or twice a year. It's literally one guy and he's done it more than once, I don't know this one made it to gaming blog news. I can understand if 5 or 6 out of the top 15 were calling out Nintendo for not supporting the game being a sign on an unhealthy scene but 1 guy? Nintendo haven't supported the game competitively for 15 years (well until recently but more on that later) and you think that's gonna diminish the scene?

Melee definitely still has a future. It might never be as big as other eSports but it's still got some years left in the tank.

1. There are more sponsors in the scene than ever before
2. More tournaments than ever before. At a local, regional, national level
3. Tournaments on twitch get nice viewership numbers
4. Will still be at EVO for the foreseeable future (not to mention that huge numbers Melee got last year)
5. Nintendo's official competitive twitter account seems to be supporting Melee whereas NoA rarely ever tweeted about the game. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6hxalq/nintendo_vs_account_tweets_out_ceo_melee_top_8/
6. PPMD one of the scenes best players is coming back to the game
7. Tournaments might still be won by the gods when the attend like it's been for the past 6-7? years but there are many players that are a threat to take tournaments


Again I think it's still got a few more years but I could be wrong ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[zelas]

So what then? Scene is fine and dandy? Things are growing and getting better?

If its as simple as a relative outsider looking at things the wrong way, thats simple enough! However, I'll be surprised if in 3 years more people are playing Melee

Almost 20 years where it has fought off two iterations couldnt stop Melee from living on but just 3 more years will surely end that scene? The next 3 years where the only new Smash game being released is the old one that already failed to get Melee players to move on?

Lol, ok.

unless something changes a lot.

Nintendo making a smash game for all fans would instead of continuing down the current path would be a lot of change.

As long as Smash 4 is the newest Smash game, Melee and Smash 64 tournaments will exist. If there's a new Smash that actually feels good for all crowds to play, then maybe people will finally make that jump.

It's not like everyone who plays Melee or 64 don't want to play new Smash games; it's that they're just not as fun to play comparatively.

This. Melee's continued longevity depends on if Nintendo decides to satisfy the scene's wants or not. Doesn't seem like Nintendo is going to do that anytime soon so Melee will continue to shine.

 

[Dyle]

Because when you try to have fun and play party games with people and you have a subset that sit there and refuse to play anything but the multiple versions old game because they're really good at it and don't want to play a slower game you tend to sour on the entire concept.

Id have a completely different opinion on Melee's prolific popularity if it tended to be a positive thing, but it doesn't so that's why I feel the way I do.

Do speed runners bother you? Because they do exactly what you described. If you're upset that some specific players wanted to play Melee when you wanted to play Smash 4, then your problem is with those players rather than the community at large. You're acting as if Melee isn't a fantastic party game in its own right

 

[Anne]

The worst thing the scene DOES admittedly have going for it, though, is that most mid-level tournaments lose money. Notably this year CEO Dreamland lost money. So it is possible we could see less tournaments-per-year for the game, but it's otherwise really healthy, with a big passionate community and serious sponsorships.

That is not healthy though. Stable numbers and strong stream viewers =/= scene health. Having enough money move around to keep the whole operation profitable is. Right now Melee is in the position where the money entering the scene can't keep up, and Nintendo still holds the keys to the major revenue streams to take this to the next level.

Again, you wouldn't have top players being so antsy about it if they didn't know what's up too. The scene as is isn't sustainable outside of the next few years without a big format shake up. They've already started pushing for that, and the tournaments and broadcasters aren't there yet to make it happen. If they don't start laying the groundwork now, shit's gonna get rough.

This is normal for games that reach the point Melee has, so it's all kind of whatever. People are just hopeful it gets to go on in some capacity cause they love the game. I'm kind of skeptical whether or not that happens, but we got a few years to find out anyways :T

 

[Jigolo]

Melee at Genesis 4 (2017 Smash Only Tournament):

G4 wasn't smash only tho. It should be considering the numbers it got for the other games lol

 

[//ARCANUM]

Isn't one of the things with Melee too that some of the top players will only play with a GameCube controller that's technically broken in a way? I remember reading about one of the top guys (I wanna say it was the guy who got 2nd at EVO 2016) who dropped out of a recent tournament because his controller stopped working and he has to find a very specific kind of GC controller that has a very specific kind of malfunction. He won't play with just any old controller.

That shit cray.

Edit - yep, it was this http://compete.kotaku.com/smash-god-drops-out-of-tournament-because-his-controlle-1794769487