How does that prove my point wrong though? The entire reason Project M existed was to make Brawl play like Melee, it even said that on the home page
That is not healthy though. Stable numbers and strong stream viewers =/= scene health. Having enough money move around to keep the whole operation profitable is. Right now Melee is in the position where the money entering the scene can't keep up, and Nintendo still holds the keys to the major revenue streams to take this to the next level.
Again, you wouldn't have top players being so antsy about it if they didn't know what's up too. The scene as is isn't sustainable outside of the next few years without a big format shake up. They've already started pushing for that, and the tournaments and broadcasters aren't there yet to make it happen. If they don't start laying the groundwork now, shit's gonna get rough.
This is normal for games that reach the point Melee has, so it's all kind of whatever. People are just hopeful it gets to go on in some capacity cause they love the game. I'm kind of skeptical whether or not that happens, but we got a few years to find out anyways :T
https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2017/apr/25/ceo-dreamland-reports-20000-loss-smash-bros-will-still-maintain-heavily-featured-presence-future-ceo-events/Jebailey said:Financially it was sadly far from a success even with 1100 total attendees and the first technical failing for CEO Gaming because I wanted to make it the quality tournament you could expect from the CEO brand. I did my best to make sure everything was covered and well run with plenty of setups/equipment for people to play nonstop throughout the weekend in a big space. To cover the cost of everything including stream production, AV, staging, ballroom space, 24 hour security friendlies room, staffing, commentary, hotel rooms for staff etc. really adds up and at the scale I ran the event about 2,000 attendees would be needed to make it a success. All in all for the sake of transparency Dreamland ended up at about a $20,000 loss.
I think being Easter Weekend was definitely the biggest obstacle but the main reasoning behind it was hotel rates for people to stay and I want my events to be as accessible and affordable as possible. Any earlier in the year and it would have gone from $110 to $150 per night at the Wyndham. Flights were also super expensive because of either Easter Weekend or Star Wars Celebration happening at the same time. I'm not entirely sure.
Isn't one of the things with Melee too that some of the top players will only play with a GameCube controller that's technically broken in a way? I remember reading about one of the top guys (I wanna say it was the guy who got 2nd at EVO 2016) who dropped out of a recent tournament because his controller stopped working and he has to find a very specific kind of GC controller that has a very specific kind of malfunction. He won't play with just any old controller.
That shit cray.
Edit - yep, it was this http://compete.kotaku.com/smash-god-drops-out-of-tournament-because-his-controlle-1794769487
Do speed runners bother you? Because they do exactly what you described. If you're upset that some specific players wanted to play Melee when you wanted to play Smash 4, then your problem is with those players rather than the community at large. You're acting as if Melee isn't a fantastic party game in its own right
I don't think CEO Dreamland is a good example of tournaments losing money. It would have been just fine if it had been scheduled any weekend other than Easter. Flights and hotels were way more expensive that weekend, besides the fact that people wanted to spend Easter with family. A major in Florida will always get a ton of players, it really comes down to poor planning on Jebailey and crew's part. If it had been any other weekend it would have made money
https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2017/apr/25/ceo-dreamland-reports-20000-loss-smash-bros-will-still-maintain-heavily-featured-presence-future-ceo-events/
The community is working on a fix for this. It's likely that it'll become the tournament standard for setups to use a memory card with hacked data on it that essentially fixes this problem completely.
Isn't one of the things with Melee too that some of the top players will only play with a GameCube controller that's technically broken in a way? I remember reading about one of the top guys (I wanna say it was the guy who got 2nd at EVO 2016) who dropped out of a recent tournament because his controller stopped working and he has to find a very specific kind of GC controller that has a very specific kind of malfunction. He won't play with just any old controller.
That shit cray.
Edit - yep, it was this http://compete.kotaku.com/smash-god-drops-out-of-tournament-because-his-controlle-1794769487
Isn't one of the things with Melee too that some of the top players will only play with a GameCube controller that's technically broken in a way? I remember reading about one of the top guys (I wanna say it was the guy who got 2nd at EVO 2016) who dropped out of a recent tournament because his controller stopped working and he has to find a very specific kind of GC controller that has a very specific kind of malfunction. He won't play with just any old controller.
That shit cray.
Edit - yep, it was this http://compete.kotaku.com/smash-god-drops-out-of-tournament-because-his-controlle-1794769487
There's a defect in the way the game reads most Gamecube controller inputs in two very specific instances - when dashing backwards there is a slight chance that that the input isn't read correctly and thus the player would lose a punish that they would have gotten otherwise, and when "shield-dropping", a technique that was discovered years ago that involves pushing down on the stick at a particular angle and speed so that your character will drop from a platform (think Battlefield/Dreamland) while holding their shield. The latter tech exists in Smash 4 too, although it's a bit harder to do in that game imo.
People have created two different fixes for both issues recently, a memory card exploit that very slightly alters the game's data to read the controller input correctly in both cases, and a controller modification that makes all controllers essentially equal by (I think) digitizing the inputs. There's a lot of talk about the community about both.
It's really not a big deal unless you're playing at the highest of the top level and the reason why Armada chose to quit is because he's always been known for being very, very picky about his controllers. He's been widely accepted as the best player in the world for a few years now, and at that level it does make a difference. Hope that explanation helped.
Maybe I misread the article, it sound like Armada WANTS the problem because it gives him competitive advantage.
Nope, but speedrunning is much more niche, whereas the Melee mentality is very common amongst people my age. Melee is a terrible party game when half the people are moving at the speed of light because they want to be good, the people who rent into the game literally cannot play.
My point was that the Melee community is really negative, this is anecdotal of course and I can't speak about literally every perspn that plays that game but there's a reason why people from vastly different parts of the world all have similar frustrations with Melee players.
Maybe I misread the article, it sound like Armada WANTS the problem because it gives him competitive advantage.
Nope, but speedrunning is much more niche, whereas the Melee mentality is very common amongst people my age. Melee is a terrible party game when half the people are moving at the speed of light because they want to be good, the people who rent into the game literally cannot play.
My point was that the Melee community is really negative, this is anecdotal of course and I can't speak about literally every perspn that plays that game but there's a reason why people from vastly different parts of the world all have similar frustrations with Melee players.
I don't really agree with this post because I generally dislike the "___ don't know what they want" notion that gets echoed about so many different things on here and is mostly a result of people choosing to blanket entire communities and don't acknowledge that different individuals are allowed to have varying opinions.
The reason I quoted this though is because I think it's incredibly disrespectful to misconstrue PPMD's medical history as part of your narrative about Melee's longevity. He's spoken openly about suffering from low testosterone and how that's negatively affected his entire lifestyle not only including Melee but also prohibiting him from running like he used to. He's also stated that he's wanted to return to Melee for years now and will be as soon as he feels he's fully recovered from his illness. You can believe what you want to believe about Melee but using that as an example of the game being too straining is fucking grimy.
ThreadI'm not into Melee, but I'd say that it's a lot healthier than most other 16 year old games.
I get the impression that the only time I hear about Melee nowadays is because the top players are complaining about lack of support
Thats obviously not a sign of a healthy scene.
I meant no disrespect to PPMD, I love the guy and the way he plays and I am excited for his return, and I am glad the doctors are making progress on him. But life gets in the way, accidents happen and medical conditions happen. We can expect players to be there forever and new blood is needed to keep a game alive.
And the game is stressful. Any game played competitively is, but Melee is specially hard on both body and mind. You can't make mistakes, you can't miss an input and you can't show any weakness. The Smash community itself is extremely involved and that means there is this constant pressure on how you perform and how you act. Some times smashers have to put a disclaimer before a tournament explaining why they can't hang out or play friendlies with everyone, or how they need to focus on the game.
I can still feel the wrist pains from the 14-hour Melee sessions, the reason why I stopped playing its because it was getting too painful. And I attended tourneys very sporadically, now I can't even imagine how much strain it puts on people who Smash is their work and their life.
I meant no disrespect to PPMD, I love the guy and the way he plays and I am excited for his return, and I am glad the doctors are making progress on him. But life gets in the way, accidents happen and medical conditions happen. We can expect players to be there forever and new blood is needed to keep a game alive.
And the game is stressful. Any game played competitively is, but Melee is specially hard on both body and mind. You can't make mistakes, you can't miss an input and you can't show any weakness. The Smash community itself is extremely involved and that means there is this constant pressure on how you perform and how you act. Some times smashers have to put a disclaimer before a tournament explaining why they can't hang out or play friendlies with everyone, or how they need to focus on the game.
I can still feel the wrist pains from the 14-hour Melee sessions, the reason why I stopped playing its because it was getting too painful. And I attended tourneys very sporadically, now I can't even imagine how much strain it puts on people who Smash is their work and their life.
*reads thread title*
*reads first line*
Melee is more than fine. It's bigger than ever, and it's 16 years old. There's nothing like it, and there probably will never be anything like it again.
The community will never stop playing. The love for the game is too great. It's like a drug. We played for years to win 70% of the $45 pot in someone's basement. It just happened to blow up in 2013 thanks to the documentary and Evo and here we are.
uh okay, but none of that has anything to do with PPMDs situation. So trying to blame Melee for it to win a debate on the internet is pretty shitty.
Sorry if the way I spoke about PPMD was offensive. The point I was trying to make is that
the game can be harsh even for the pros and if you are not on a good condition you will probably evade the game.
Mostly that, game is hard to play at a high level. It was unnecessary of me need to mention PPMD onto this, I guess, but I thought it helped illustrate how the game can become a burden on its players because of the level of dedication it needs.
Again, sorry if it was insensitive of me, not my intention.
Man the Melee scene is garbage and the sooner it dies the better IMO, either that or stop complaining and be happy playing on your CRT t.v with your broken controllers and hosting your own crappy basement tournaments. Stop asking a company that moved on to support your dying tourney scene, and feel the need to shit on every smash game that isn't trying to be a carbon copy of melee. Seriously i'd rather have the entire scene die and everyone who refuses to move on to go with it, sooner the better. and the we can focus on the games that do matter, maybe then Nintendo could actually focus more on smash 4 tourney scene without the people stuck 15 years in the past shouting at Nintendo what basically amounts to nothing. This whole melee players are like the only thing keeping the community so split and shit
Also most fighting games have infinites. Hello Mahvelmaking a distinction where there's none regardless of game
Stop. I play Smash 4 over melee but the victim complex that Smash 4 players have is obnoxious. Nothing would really change for Smash 4 if melee went away, people can play whichever game they prefer.Man the Melee scene is garbage and the sooner it dies the better IMO, either that or stop complaining and be happy playing on your CRT t.v with your broken controllers and hosting your own crappy basement tournaments. Stop asking a company that moved on to support your dying tourney scene, and feel the need to shit on every smash game that isn't trying to be a carbon copy of melee. Seriously i'd rather have the entire scene die and everyone who refuses to move on to go with it, sooner the better. and the we can focus on the games that do matter, maybe then Nintendo could actually focus more on smash 4 tourney scene without the people stuck 15 years in the past shouting at Nintendo what basically amounts to nothing. This whole melee players are like the only thing keeping the community so split and shit
Again just my humble opinion
Man the Melee scene is garbage and the sooner it dies the better IMO, either that or stop complaining and be happy playing on your CRT t.v with your broken controllers and hosting your own crappy basement tournaments. Stop asking a company that moved on to support your dying tourney scene, and feel the need to shit on every smash game that isn't trying to be a carbon copy of melee. Seriously i'd rather have the entire scene die and everyone who refuses to move on to go with it, sooner the better. and the we can focus on the games that do matter, maybe then Nintendo could actually focus more on smash 4 tourney scene without the people stuck 15 years in the past shouting at Nintendo what basically amounts to nothing. This whole melee players are like the only thing keeping the community so split and shit
Again just my humble opinion
It fascinates me how much Melee's continued play annoys some people.
Man the Melee scene is garbage and the sooner it dies the better IMO, either that or stop complaining and be happy playing on your CRT t.v with your broken controllers and hosting your own crappy basement tournaments. Stop asking a company that moved on to support your dying tourney scene, and feel the need to shit on every smash game that isn't trying to be a carbon copy of melee. Seriously i'd rather have the entire scene die and everyone who refuses to move on to go with it, sooner the better. and the we can focus on the games that do matter, maybe then Nintendo could actually focus more on smash 4 tourney scene without the people stuck 15 years in the past shouting at Nintendo what basically amounts to nothing. This whole melee players are like the only thing keeping the community so split and shit
Again just my humble opinion
Stop. I play Smash 4 over melee but the victim complex that Smash 4 players have is obnoxious. Nothing would really change for Smash 4 if melee went away, people can play whichever game they prefer.
Except Project M,
RIP
Yeah I agree with that but that person specifically was saying that melee is making things worse for Smash 4 players. Also Smash 4 players that are online only like people on r/smashbros tend to cry about melee too. The games can coexist is all i'm saying.Honestly most of this shit is just GAF not understanding the scene, not Smash 4 players. As someone who has attended all kinds of Smash tournaments ranging from locals to regionals to supernationals in the past couple years, most Melee and Smash 4 players seem to get along pretty well in person.
It's not the continued play, it's the entitlement of the fanbase.
If the Smash game isn't exactly Melee, it's worthless. Nintendo should ignore anything except remaking Melee, which has to be played the same way with the same physics and the same exploits on the same controllers with the same characters on the same stages as before. And oh my god why is Nintendo being such fucking assholes by not pouring money and attention and support into this 16-year-old game from three hardware generations ago?!
Come on.
Melee can exist, but exist quietly to yourselves and stop with the entitlement. Nintendo owes you nothing and has moved on. I ain't hurt cause you guys still wanna play melee, ain't losing no sleep over melee players you do you. I doubt melee will last much longer anyways when they run outta broken controllers or the pro's retire. I give it 3 more years, and at the very least will stop seeing the same 10 people hailing melee as the best thing ever and why its not getting supported like its newest iteration.
Anyone looking to getting into smash, i feel sorry for if they go to a smash forum that host both melee and any other smash, good way to turn that person off of smash completely. Melee hurts the smash community as a whole.
It fascinates me how much Melee's continued play annoys some people.
Melee definitely still has a future. It might never be as big as other eSports but it's still got some years left in the tank.
1. There are more sponsors in the scene than ever before
2. More tournaments than ever before. At a local, regional, national level
3. Tournaments on twitch get nice viewership numbers
4. Will still be at EVO for the foreseeable future (not to mention that huge numbers Melee got last year)
5. Nintendo's official competitive twitter account seems to be supporting Melee whereas NoA rarely ever tweeted about the game. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6hxalq/nintendo_vs_account_tweets_out_ceo_melee_top_8/
6. PPMD one of the scenes best players is coming back to the game
7. Tournaments might still be won by the gods when the attend like it's been for the past 6-7? years but there are many players that are a threat to take tournaments
Again I think it's still got a few more years but I could be wrong ¯\_(ツ_/¯
Project M is not the same game as Melee. It plays differently, is balanced differently, it looks different, and has more content. But it is close enough to Melee that many considered it a worthwhile sequel to the game they enjoyed and moved on. That is why it disproves your point. If another game like Project M were to come out in an official capacity, the community would move on. Would Melee still be played? Yes. Because people love it and will continue to love it. But the effect that Project M had on the community in the height of its popularity proves that all Melee players want to "move on" is a game that satisfies the core reasons why they enjoy Melee in the first place.
It's not the continued play, it's the entitlement of the fanbase.
If the Smash game isn't exactly Melee, it's worthless. Nintendo should ignore anything except remaking Melee, which has to be played the same way with the same physics and the same exploits on the same controllers with the same characters on the same stages as before. And oh my god why is Nintendo being such fucking assholes by not pouring money and attention and support into this 16-year-old game from three hardware generations ago?!
Come on.
Isn't one of the things with Melee too that some of the top players will only play with a GameCube controller that's technically broken in a way? I remember reading about one of the top guys (I wanna say it was the guy who got 2nd at EVO 2016) who dropped out of a recent tournament because his controller stopped working and he has to find a very specific kind of GC controller that has a very specific kind of malfunction. He won't play with just any old controller.
That shit cray.
Edit - yep, it was this http://compete.kotaku.com/smash-god-drops-out-of-tournament-because-his-controlle-1794769487
Thats wrong to me, that shouldn't be allowed. People should have to use fully functioning GC controllers, thats an unfair exploit to me.