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Does competitive Melee have a future?
- Thread starter Raging Spaniard
- Start date
It disproves your point because Project M isn't Melee, lmao. It's a very common belief throughout the community (including top players who have echoed this sentiment) that if Brawl had played liked Project M from the beginning, Melee would have died and the community would have moved on. As it was, in the height of its popularity Project M provided a worthwhile replacement and improvement on everything people enjoyed about Melee at the time - the characters, the speed, the tech (including new tech that was carried over from Brawl!), the stages, and the community.
Project M is not the same game as Melee. It plays differently, is balanced differently, it looks different, and has more content. But it is close enough to Melee that many considered it a worthwhile sequel to the game they enjoyed and moved on. That is why it disproves your point. If another game like Project M were to come out in an official capacity, the community would move on. Would Melee still be played? Yes. Because people love it and will continue to love it. But the effect that Project M had on the community in the height of its popularity proves that all Melee players want to "move on" is a game that satisfies the core reasons why they enjoy Melee in the first place.
I don't think CEO Dreamland is a good example of tournaments losing money. It would have been just fine if it had been scheduled any weekend other than Easter. Flights and hotels were way more expensive that weekend, besides the fact that people wanted to spend Easter with family. A major in Florida will always get a ton of players, it really comes down to poor planning on Jebailey and crew's part. If it had been any other weekend it would have made money
https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2017/apr/25/ceo-dreamland-reports-20000-loss-smash-bros-will-still-maintain-heavily-featured-presence-future-ceo-events/Jebailey said:
Geno Breaker
Banned
As long as the Smash sequels deliberately try to not be as fast and complex as Melee, the scene will be around.
I think it has a solid 5 years still, but without a bit of support from Nintendo (In the form of an slightly updated port), I think it will just die out. If it gets ported to a new system, I think the scene could hold steady. The Melee scene will never be big, but that's honestly fine.
I absolutely believe it does. It still pulls in tons of viewers, has a very passionate community, continues to evolve, and has more support from Nintendo than ever before. Even when hard copies of the game start dying out, Dolphin will ensure it's always accessible.
I still have teenagers who talk to me about it and they first they ask when I mention I'm into Smash is if I play Melee (I'm mostly into PM though).
I still have teenagers who talk to me about it and they first they ask when I mention I'm into Smash is if I play Melee (I'm mostly into PM though).
The community is working on a fix for this. It's likely that it'll become the tournament standard for setups to use a memory card with hacked data on it that essentially fixes this problem completely.
Nope, but speedrunning is much more niche, whereas the Melee mentality is very common amongst people my age. Melee is a terrible party game when half the people are moving at the speed of light because they want to be good, the people who rent into the game literally cannot play.
My point was that the Melee community is really negative, this is anecdotal of course and I can't speak about literally every perspn that plays that game but there's a reason why people from vastly different parts of the world all have similar frustrations with Melee players.
It's not just CEO though. There isn't a lot of money to be made on mid-sized Smash events AFAIK. Most games go through a phase where mid sized events tend to die down in general anyways so it's not that big a deal. When I was working in the tournament biz Smash 4 was heavily preferred by mixed game and mid tier events because the numbers were a lot more stable. The events to keep up Melee numbers tended to be ones specifically focused as large scale Melee events with the "Gods" in attendance.
I'm not super into Smash myself, but when I was working in the FGC esports sphere this was the impression I often got. I doubt it's changed much in the last few months. Traditional TOs aren't very interested in it.
//ARCANUM
Member
Maybe I misread the article, it sound like Armada WANTS the problem because it gives him competitive advantage.
There's a defect in the way the game reads most Gamecube controller inputs in two very specific instances - when dashing backwards there is a slight chance that that the input isn't read correctly and thus the player would lose a punish that they would have gotten otherwise, and when "shield-dropping", a technique that was discovered years ago that involves pushing down on the stick at a particular angle and speed so that your character will drop from a platform (think Battlefield/Dreamland) while holding their shield. The latter tech exists in Smash 4 too, although it's a bit harder to do in that game imo. A very small percentage of Gamecube controllers have a "defect" that happens to make both of these inputs more consistent because the analog input is read slightly differently for whatever reason.
People have created two different fixes for both issues recently, a memory card exploit that very slightly alters the game's data to read the controller input correctly in both cases, and a controller modification that makes all controllers essentially equal by (I think) digitizing the inputs. There's a lot of talk in the community about both.
It's really not a big deal unless you're playing at the highest of the top level and the reason why Armada chose to quit is because he's always been known for being very, very picky about his controllers. He's been widely accepted as the best player in the world for a few years now, and at that level it does make a difference. Hope that explanation helped.
FireBeaver
Banned
Controllers are a massive problem in Melee. The very top players buy dozens of controllers because they're so perfectionist about how it should work that a slight issue with it essentially renders it unusable for them. That's why a recent announcement of a code based modification of it that removes those controller issues was such a big deal.
//ARCANUM
Member
There's a defect in the way the game reads most Gamecube controller inputs in two very specific instances - when dashing backwards there is a slight chance that that the input isn't read correctly and thus the player would lose a punish that they would have gotten otherwise, and when "shield-dropping", a technique that was discovered years ago that involves pushing down on the stick at a particular angle and speed so that your character will drop from a platform (think Battlefield/Dreamland) while holding their shield. The latter tech exists in Smash 4 too, although it's a bit harder to do in that game imo.
People have created two different fixes for both issues recently, a memory card exploit that very slightly alters the game's data to read the controller input correctly in both cases, and a controller modification that makes all controllers essentially equal by (I think) digitizing the inputs. There's a lot of talk about the community about both.
It's really not a big deal unless you're playing at the highest of the top level and the reason why Armada chose to quit is because he's always been known for being very, very picky about his controllers. He's been widely accepted as the best player in the world for a few years now, and at that level it does make a difference. Hope that explanation helped.
Super helpful, thanks!
The problem is that dashbacks don't work consistently on Gamecube controllers the way that they're normally manufactured. There is a manufacturing defect that makes it less likely for dashbacks to malfunction. The hacked data on the memory card would make dashbacks work properly 100% of the time, negating the need to look for a controller with this manufacturing defect.
Edit: Someone already explained it better than me.
*reads thread title*
*reads first line*
Melee is more than fine. It's bigger than ever, and it's 16 years old. There's nothing like it, and there probably will never be anything like it again.
The community will never stop playing. The love for the game is too great. It's like a drug. We played for years to win 70% of the $45 pot in someone's basement. It just happened to blow up in 2013 thanks to the documentary and Evo and here we are.
*reads first line*
Melee is more than fine. It's bigger than ever, and it's 16 years old. There's nothing like it, and there probably will never be anything like it again.
The community will never stop playing. The love for the game is too great. It's like a drug. We played for years to win 70% of the $45 pot in someone's basement. It just happened to blow up in 2013 thanks to the documentary and Evo and here we are.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
Yea, if people aren't all using the same equipment it doesn't seem fair.
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
I don't know, but Competitive Smash just seems way way way more "out there in left field" than any other FGC.
Probably because of things like "Broken Controllers".
Probably because of things like "Broken Controllers".
yeah I think the ___ community is really toxic because even though I've never played seriously before and haven't put in any effort I literally can't even play with the people who actually care and practice
- street fighter
- tekken
- league of legends
- dota
- skullgirls
- marvel
- basketball
- blazblue
- guilty gear
- gran turismo
- forza
- soccer
- any video game that is played competitively
- any anything that is played competitively
I meant no disrespect to PPMD, I love the guy and the way he plays and I am excited for his return, and I am glad the doctors are making progress on him. But life gets in the way, accidents happen and medical conditions happen. We can't expect players to be there forever and new blood is needed to keep a game alive.
And the game is stressful. Any game played competitively is, but Melee is specially hard on both body and mind. You can't make mistakes, you can't miss an input and you can't show any weakness. The Smash community itself is extremely involved and that means there is this constant pressure on how you perform and how you act. Some times smashers have to put a disclaimer before a tournament explaining why they can't hang out or play friendlies with everyone, or how they need to focus on the game.
I can still feel the wrist pains from the 14-hour Melee sessions, the reason why I stopped playing its because it was getting too painful. And I attended tourneys very sporadically, now I can't even imagine how much strain it puts on people who Smash is their work and their life.
GinoFelino
Member
Thread
Let's celebrate that it's still as relevant as it is and that it has had the legs that it did
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
Let's name other competitive fighters that are older than Melee:
Super Turbo
....?
Seriously. Is there anything else?
Super Turbo
....?
Seriously. Is there anything else?
MajinSweet4
Member
uh okay, but none of that has anything to do with PPMDs situation. So trying to blame Melee for it to win a debate on the internet is pretty shitty.
Apart from your last paragraph though regarding Gamecube controller ergonomics, I think this applies to most other eSports games as well. I'd go so far as to say that a lot of things people do as careers are straining on the body and mind. I do agree that the controllers are definitely a problem, though, both because of the dashback/shield drop issues as well as hand strains. That's why I'm completely in support of people using Smashbox (or b0xx, whatever) in tournament and regular play. The Gamecube controller just wasn't designed to be used like that and although it's fine for most people that don't play as much as the top players do, it definitely is an issue that some people in the community should stop being so hard-headed about.
In regards to PPMD though, like I said, his illness is unrelated to the game itself and I don't agree with your assertion that it has any implication on the game and the way it's being played.
But yeah, it will eventually die, like everything does. It's a shame, but you're not wrong. I just don't personally think that'll happen any time soon.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
*reads thread title*
*reads first line*
Melee is more than fine. It's bigger than ever, and it's 16 years old. There's nothing like it, and there probably will never be anything like it again.
The community will never stop playing. The love for the game is too great. It's like a drug. We played for years to win 70% of the $45 pot in someone's basement. It just happened to blow up in 2013 thanks to the documentary and Evo and here we are.
Heeey Coach takes a pretty good stunner, had no idea
Sorry if the way I spoke about PPMD was offensive. The point I was trying to make is that
the game can be harsh even for the pros and if you are not on a good condition you will probably evade the game.
Mostly that, game is hard to play at a high level. It was unnecessary of me need to mention PPMD onto this, I guess, but I thought it helped illustrate how the game can become a burden on its players because of the level of dedication it needs.
Again, sorry if it was insensitive of me, not my intention.
Edit: And to clarify, PPMD has mentioned that he feels better now and he has avoided playing because he feels he is not up to the level he wants yet, I was having that more in mind when I wrote my original post. Even if the illness is unrelated to smash (As it is), the stress the game has makes it something to avoid, obviously.
I think Hax$ is the example you're looking for. His situation is an outlier because very few players went as far as he did in playing "wrong" and are generally taking better care of their hands, but he did essentially destroy his wrists trying to push Fox to his limits.
PPMD suffered a genetic condition that made it impossible for him to even intently focus on and study a video of a set for longer than minutes at a time. His situation would have pushed him away from League, Smash 4, Street Fighter, or even Chess. That's why it's disrespectful to use him as an example imo, even though I get what you're trying to say.
Man the Melee scene is garbage and the sooner it dies the better IMO, either that or stop complaining and be happy playing on your CRT t.v with your broken controllers and hosting your own crappy basement tournaments. Stop asking a company that moved on to support your dying tourney scene, and feel the need to shit on every smash game that isn't trying to be a carbon copy of melee. Seriously i'd rather have the entire scene die and everyone who refuses to move on to go with it, sooner the better. and the we can focus on the games that do matter, maybe then Nintendo could actually focus more on smash 4 tourney scene without the people stuck 15 years in the past shouting at Nintendo what basically amounts to nothing. This whole melee players are like the only thing keeping the community so split and shit
Again just my humble opinion
MajinSweet4
Member
Also most fighting games have infinites. Hello Mahvel
Stop. I play Smash 4 over melee but the victim complex that Smash 4 players have is obnoxious. Nothing would really change for Smash 4 if melee went away, people can play whichever game they prefer.
Except Project M,
RIP
RIP
maybe if nintendo made games good enough to attract a large competitive audience
they wouldn't have to compete with a game they made 16 years ago that is no longer in print
it's almost like the audience has spoken and they've chosen melee and not arms or pokken or whatever the fuck
It's still within the Top 3 at EVO in terms of entrants, so it'll probably stick around for a while. But without major support from Nintendo & a stagnated meta, the fuel's gonna run out at some point in the future where Melee stops to grow. That being said, it won't go down easy. Yahoo eSports (R.I.P.) summed it up pretty well.
It's not the continued play, it's the entitlement of the fanbase.
If the Smash game isn't exactly Melee, it's worthless. Nintendo should ignore anything except remaking Melee, which has to be played the same way with the same physics and the same exploits on the same controllers with the same characters on the same stages as before. And oh my god why is Nintendo being such fucking assholes by not pouring money and attention and support into this 16-year-old game from three hardware generations ago?!
Come on.
Geno Breaker
Banned
This is my favorite meme.
Honestly most of this shit is just GAF not understanding the scene, not Smash 4 players. As someone who has attended all kinds of Smash tournaments ranging from locals to regionals to supernationals in the past couple years, most Melee and Smash 4 players seem to get along pretty well in person.
Yeah I agree with that but that person specifically was saying that melee is making things worse for Smash 4 players. Also Smash 4 players that are online only like people on r/smashbros tend to cry about melee too. The games can coexist is all i'm saying.
Because newer iterations dont have as deep combat options and mechanics.
Melee can exist, but exist quietly to yourselves and stop with the entitlement. Nintendo owes you nothing and has moved on. I ain't hurt cause you guys still wanna play melee, ain't losing no sleep over melee players you do you. I doubt melee will last much longer anyways when they run outta broken controllers or the pro's retire. I give it 3 more years, and at the very least will stop seeing the same 10 people hailing melee as the best thing ever and why its not getting supported like its newest iteration.
Anyone looking to getting into smash, i feel sorry for if they go to a smash forum that host both melee and any other smash, good way to turn that person off of smash completely. Melee hurts the smash community as a whole.
Anyone looking to getting into smash, i feel sorry for if they go to a smash forum that host both melee and any other smash, good way to turn that person off of smash completely. Melee hurts the smash community as a whole.
I don't know if the Melee scene will ever die, but you can be sure Sakurai's going to continue to do everything in his power to see his dream come true. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one who was spearheading the Nintendo's C&D letters for Project M. I'm sure that one particularly struck a nerve for him.
MajinSweet4
Member
Melee can exist, but exist quietly to yourselves and stop with the entitlement. Nintendo owes you nothing and has moved on. I ain't hurt cause you guys still wanna play melee, ain't losing no sleep over melee players you do you. I doubt melee will last much longer anyways when they run outta broken controllers or the pro's retire. I give it 3 more years, and at the very least will stop seeing the same 10 people hailing melee as the best thing ever and why its not getting supported like its newest iteration.
Anyone looking to getting into smash, i feel sorry for if they go to a smash forum that host both melee and any other smash, good way to turn that person off of smash completely. Melee hurts the smash community as a whole.
Feels like I'm back in 2009 looking at posts from salty Brawl players.
Yeah, I would say this is something that I just can never understand. I will never care if people are still playing Eve online in 20 years or SFV over SFVI. People should just play what they love. (however SFV is bad, so lol.)
Melee definitely still has a future. It might never be as big as other eSports but it's still got some years left in the tank.
1. There are more sponsors in the scene than ever before
2. More tournaments than ever before. At a local, regional, national level
3. Tournaments on twitch get nice viewership numbers
4. Will still be at EVO for the foreseeable future (not to mention that huge numbers Melee got last year)
5. Nintendo's official competitive twitter account seems to be supporting Melee whereas NoA rarely ever tweeted about the game. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6hxalq/nintendo_vs_account_tweets_out_ceo_melee_top_8/
6. PPMD one of the scenes best players is coming back to the game
7. Tournaments might still be won by the gods when the attend like it's been for the past 6-7? years but there are many players that are a threat to take tournaments
Again I think it's still got a few more years but I could be wrong ¯\_(ツ
Great list, but I would say it's missing the following reasons why it might get another growth spurt:
8. Samox's next documentary series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwVuYrFXY7k
9. Melee's eventual rerelease on the Switch (either port or HD rerelease)
I think the game has at least another 5 years.
Yup, thank you! I would love to "move on" from Melee, but there is nothing to move on to. If PM was official I would have already moved on.
For people that care, Last Stock Legends released a new episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV_PyeSy-JA
"Why don't they just stop playing the game they like, and play a game they don't like?"
Lynd7
Member
Thats wrong to me, that shouldn't be allowed. People should have to use fully functioning GC controllers, thats an unfair exploit to me.
It'll have a future until someone improves on the formula. The game is growing despite all the hurdles being old presents. People probably would have said "no" to this question ten years ago and now it's the second or third largest fighting game out there depending on what metric you want to use.
Turns out there's no such thing. Every controller behaves differently. Load up Dolphin and 20XX and plug in different controllers and check the values for different analog sticks, they'll all have different numbers and some offer advantages.
Turns out there's no such thing. Every controller behaves differently. Load up Dolphin and 20XX and plug in different controllers and check the values for different analog sticks, they'll all have different numbers and some offer advantages.
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