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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house

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O

Ogodei

Member
Standards have sunk so low that nobody even brings up how he insulted McCain for being a POW too.

That's going to be the biggest lasting damage (unless this Russian Candidate stuff goes a lot deeper than people think). Trump singlehandedly knocked down the level of political discourse in this country by three notches.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Ogodei said:
Standards have sunk so low that nobody even brings up how he insulted McCain for being a POW too.

That's going to be the biggest lasting damage (unless this Russian Candidate stuff goes a lot deeper than people think). Trump singlehandedly knocked down the level of political discourse in this country by three notches.
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Only three?
 
J

jtb

Banned
Valhelm said:
Putin's a monster, yet millions of Russians still think he's the only hope to save Russia from foreign aggression. The Russian public (particularly its LGBT community and progressive opposition) deserve far better than this fucking gangster state, but further antagonization of Russia won't bring down Putin. Historically, Western efforts to hurt the Russian government instead hurt the Russian public, fostering greater support for their government and convincing folks to look beyond state abuses. That the Russian public does not hate such a corrupt and violent regime speaks volumes about the failure of Western governments to handle the Russian situation.
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So your love of authoritarian strongmen hinges upon them having actual political support, then.

Ogodei said:
Standards have sunk so low that nobody even brings up how he insulted McCain for being a POW too.

That's going to be the biggest lasting damage (unless this Russian Candidate stuff goes a lot deeper than people think). Trump singlehandedly knocked down the level of political discourse in this country by three notches.
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Fuck McCain.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
B-Dubs said:
Only three?
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It wasn't that high to begin with. Just think about the birtherism stuff! I mean, you had Donald Trump accusing the president of being...

wait...

Trump

great-meme-revelation-moment_o_690975.gif


Trump's been ruining political discourse for six years.
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
Speaking of Georgia, my cousin's fourth husband recently stole $700 to buy drugs, got caught, and has now been shipped to a rehab there. (Why he had to go to Georgia and not some place closer in Texas or Arizona, I have no idea.)

I doubt he cares about the health care bill because as far as I know he can't read, but I just wanted to shoehorn that story in here.
 
J

jtb

Banned
I don't mind lowering the political discourse. The rot has been growing for decades, and it needed to be acknowledged. This is the kind of existential crisis that either defines - or destroys - a government. Trump is a one-man wrecking crew exposing all the systemic weaknesses in our democracy.

His brash idiocy is probably our biggest ally in exposing all of this bullshit.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Autodidact said:
Speaking of Georgia, my cousin's fourth husband recently stole $700 to buy drugs, got caught, and has now been shipped to a rehab there. (Why he had to go to Georgia and not some place closer in Texas or Arizona, I have no idea.)

I doubt he cares about the health care bill because as far as I know he can't read, but I just wanted to shoehorn that story in here.
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I offer my thoughts and prayers
for her fifth
.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Valhelm said:
There's a lot of ethnic cleansing happening in the Syrian Civil War, but it isn't really coming from the government side.

Syria is in fact one of the most clear-cut vindications of an anti-imperial worldview, because the proxies the US, Turkey, and the Gulf States support in that country are fucking monstrous. Thanks to decades of Saudi efforts to radicalize a segment of the Sunni majority, the country became host to hundreds of intensely sectarian militias with really bad aims. When popular protests broke out against the brutality of the Assad regime, these radical organizations seized control of the revolution and transformed it into a war of secularism versus sectarianism.
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I think what might have caused some radical Sunnis to appear in Syria was that they were living under a Shia dictatorship.

Also, Assad keeps a death camp in his backyard for his political enemies and has forced millions of his political enemies to flee the country.

I wonder if these people are Shia or Sunni? :thinkingfaceemoji:

Anyway, you're a terrible person and I'm never going to respond to you again.
 
TheLaughingStock

TheLaughingStock

Member
Ogodei said:
Standards have sunk so low that nobody even brings up how he insulted McCain for being a POW too.

That's going to be the biggest lasting damage (unless this Russian Candidate stuff goes a lot deeper than people think). Trump singlehandedly knocked down the level of political discourse in this country by three notches.
Click to expand...

Why should people bring it up when John McCain votes with Trump 90% of the time?
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
jtb said:
So your love of authoritarian strongmen hinges upon them having actual political support, then.
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Where did you get that? Putin's popularity both impedes Western aims and shows popular distrust of Western government. Until the West can convince the Russians that they're on their side, Putin or his successor will continue to pull their bullshit.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Valhelm, I'm really surprised you don't think the minority ethnicity dictator that is using chemical weapons against an oppressed, disenfranchised majority and keeping them political prisoner is not also effecting ethnic violence.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Carter Page is trying to sell a book, too.
Page is shopping around a 46-page prospectus for a “landmark volume” on the 2016 campaign, tentatively titled “Politics, Lies And The Wiretap: Inside The Fight To End The 70-Year Cold War?”

The goal, Page wrote in an email to news outlets, is to counteract the “vast wave of false information discharged by the Clinton-Obama-Comey regime” about Russia’s interference in the 2016 election—which Page and Trump both deny—and the “vicious hunt” to discover whether any member of the Trump campaign assisted in that foreign effort. Page envisions his project as a conservative response to forthcoming books by ousted FBI director James Comey and former President Barack Obama.

...

“After Drama Queen Comey has already told his fictional story for free on public access TV, I find it hard to imagine that my book which finally reveals the real truth about the criminal activities committed during the witch hunt would have a lower valuation than his next batch of forthcoming fairytales,” Page said.
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A

Abinash117

Member
'Appeasing' to Russia is assuming that the Russian government is almost entirely a victim of western imperialism and it is ignoring the fact the Russian government has its own agenda. Deescalation is signaling that as long as you get pressured by your rival, you are willing to give them what they want and you will back down. This can be used against you by other countries and signal to them that they can basically do whatever they want with no repercussions.

It doesn't mean that they won't try to have a conflict with you because it could be a part of their agenda to weaken you. If Putin really does have a worldview of "I have to take others down to get on top" that means that the Russian government won't stop until it weakens US influence. I think that is were argument falls flat if we concede positions on certain states like NK or Russia, that they will just stop. It largely hinges on that.


Valhelm said:
Where did you get that? Putin's popularity both impedes Western aims and shows popular distrust of Western government. Until the West can convince the Russians that they're on their side, Putin or his successor will continue to pull their bullshit.
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They won't let that happen because it cause the government to think you are trying to westernize their population.
 
C

chadskin

Member
Valhelm said:
Putin enjoys incredible popular support thanks to ability to unite every segment of the Russian population (except the liberals) under his weird mix of conservative values and left-wing rhetoric. The right likes him. The far left likes him. The immigrants like him and the Chechens love him. Most billionaires and gangsters also like Putin, often using illegal tactics to edge out the opposition in local races.

Most Russians think Putin is a necessary, if flawed, leader to protect their country from foreign attacks. The 90s really devastated Russia, in ways few Westerners really understand, so Putin is seen as a return to dignity and stability. Every Russian of voting age remembers the misery of the years before Putin, and many think his policies and resolve saved their economy and kicked out Western meddlers.

Due their country's lack of a liberal tradition, Russians are generally much less concerned by their government's red-faced conservatism and its rampant election fraud. A Russian woman I know, who is 18 and bisexual, despises the government's homophobia but worries that the liberal opposition could pave the way for another decade of abject poverty and Western domination.
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This is such a terrible, superficial look at Russia.

The overwhelming majority of Russians get their news and political information from TV - and often TV only. Virtually every TV channel -- in addition to virtually every (online) newspaper -- is either directly funded and controlled by the Kremlin or in the hands of Putin-friendly oligarchs. Opposition figures either don't get a chance to air their opinions like Alexei Navalny -- Putin won't even mention his name -- or get smeared on national TV for hours on end like the "drunken womanizer" Boris Nemtsov.

Instead the Kremlin media turns to "opposition figures" like Vladimir Zhirinovsky of the "Liberal Democratic Party" to try to paint Putin as a moderate, reasonable leader. How?
He proposed setting up large fans on the borders to blow airborne radioactive waste into the Baltic states.
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To eradicate bird flu, he proposed arming all of Russia's population and ordering them and the troops to shoot down the migrant birds returning to Russia from wintering.
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On 23 August 2014, he voiced the opinion that Russia ought to abolish political parties in favour of an autocratic system in which the leader would be chosen by the "five to six thousand wisest people" in the country. He also proposed returning to the Imperial flag and anthem. Putin rejected this proposal.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhirinovsky#Controversies

If it comes down to Zhirinovsky and Putin, I'd probably vote for Putin, too. But if Putin thought he actually had the backing of a vast majority of the populace, he wouldn't have had to invade Ukraine to try to show them democratic uprisings only lead to chaos and instability and he wouldn't have had to stuff ballots in every election of the past decade.

Valhelm said:
Where did you get that? Putin's popularity both impedes Western aims and shows popular distrust of Western government. Until the West can convince the Russians that they're on their side, Putin or his successor will continue to pull their bullshit.
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Putin is popular because the Kremlin-controlled media disseminates anti-Western disinformation.

I urge you to actually read up on what's going on in Russia. Like, start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_portrayal_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis#Media_in_Russia
 
T

Teggy

Member
A totally serious tweet by a Dem candidate for NY city council

Thomas Lopez-Pierre‏
@VoteLopezPierre

Replying to @errollouis @MarkLevineNYC
After discussions with my Jewish supporters, I have agreed to NO longer use the words: "Greedy Jewish Landlords".
4:41 PM - 17 Jul 2017
Click to expand...
 
L

Lo-Volt

Member
Teggy said:
A totally serious tweet by a Dem candidate for NY city council
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Wait, but why are we mocking someone who says “you know, I’m no longer going to use dumb stereotypical language while seeking positions of power”? Don’t we want more people to publicly reject this kind of discrimination?
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Spoiled Milk said:
Valhelm, I'm really surprised you don't think the minority ethnicity dictator that is using chemical weapons against an oppressed, disenfranchised majority and keeping them political prisoner is not also effecting ethnic violence.
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I haven't read of any specifically sectarian violence perpetuated by the Assad regime. On the contrary, massacres and forced conversions of Christians, Shi'ites, and Druze have been carried out by rebel groups and ISIS.

I don't endorse the Syrian government or believe the Assad family are good people, but I recognize that in their conflict with this specific Wahhabist enemy they are the lesser evil. Ideally, their power would be held by a more democratic and accountable government. The Syrian Kurds do offer a hint of a viable alternative to the Ba'athist police state. But there is no outcome in which the sectarian rebels leave Syria a more prosperous and liberated country.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
chad, I think that's an unfair representation of what Valhelm is saying. Yes, there is obviously an enormous amount of media and political propoganda in Russia, and the Russian political system is an enormous con designed to bolster support for Putin, and this is the main reason Putin is popular. But regardless of the reason, Putin is still popular, and accordingly sponsoring regime change efforts is likely to alienate the average Russian, rather than draw them nearer, since it is the US seen as illegitimately subverting the rightful leader of the country. Or in other words: it's deeply counterproductive. From the perspective of your average Russian, the meddling in the US election is a fair response!

There's an article in Foreign Policy arguing as much:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/10/13...clinton-trump-putin-ukraine-syria-how-to-fix/

U.S. policy must adapt to new challenges, and Washington may need to give ground on other, lesser priorities. For example, if forced to choose between securing cooperation on nuclear nonproliferation and supporting pro-Western political change in Russia's neighborhood, a tactical withdrawal on the latter may be necessary to preserve a larger victory on arms control.
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I think the right approach will be ultimately a very pragmatic and boring one: the Putin administration is sufficiently entrenched that any grand plans or unifying projects for dismantling the regime or bringing Russia into the family of Europe are distant dreams. The best that Europe can reasonably hope for is containment.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Crab said:
Why does this contain Russia, exactly?
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Because making the Russian economy worse off diminishes their state power? They are interested in fucking up everyone else's shit. Two can play that game.

Chad was absolutely not unfair to Valhelm. When your worldview could be attributed to RT and no one could tell the difference, you are not worth interacting with.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
kirblar said:
Because making the Russian economy worse off diminishes their state power?
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Not really. State power isn't just a function of a state's economy, but also of the ability of the state to actually leverage that economy. Whenever you consider sanctions, you have to stop and consider: these make Putin more popular and give him greater leverage internally. Is this specific sanction reducing the amount Putin can do or increasing it? I'm skeptical that the answer is 'reducing it' in anything more than a small minority of cases, particularly given the spotty track record of sanctions to date. Iraq was under sanctions for over a decade, North Korea has been under sanctions for several decades.

If there is a role for sanctions, it is in targeted sanctions that only apply to elite figures.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Crab said:
Not really. State power isn't just a function of a state's economy, but also of the ability of the state to actually leverage that economy. Whenever you consider sanctions, you have to stop and consider: these make Putin more popular and give him greater leverage internally. Is this specific sanction reducing the amount Putin can do or increasing it? I'm skeptical that the answer is 'reducing it' particularly often, particularly given the spotty track record of sanctions to date. Iraq was under sanctions for over a decade, North Korea has been under sanctions for several decades.

If there is a role for sanctions, it is in targeted sanctions that only apply to elite figures.
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It seems literally impossible for Putin to achieve more power than he already has within Russia!

Putin sure doesn't like that "adoption" sanction very much and I'm betting he sure wasn't happy when OPEC crashed Russia's oil market.
 
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