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[Durante]

Setting aside foveated rendering, they would probably benefit a lot from being able to render statically partitioned areas of the screen at a lower resolution. The 4K pixel density is probably overkill for the actual resolving power of the glass and eye in the periphery of the screen. In the case of the glass, you don't need eye tracking to know what portions of the image to render at lower resolution.

Games are already doing that.
Multi-resolution shading is a way to accomplish it on almost any HW.
Lens-matched shading using multiple projection matrices is an even more efficient way on modern GPUs.

There is no 8K content worth playing on VR

What is "8k content"?
I have a lot of VR games, and I can't think of any that wouldn't benefit from higher resolution.

All existing openVR games?

Something like Assetto Corsa or Raw Data would benefit immensely from an higher FOV and reduced screen-door (and those two games I can already run at crazy high res anyway).

I think many people underestimate the resolution you can run current VR games at on a really high-end PC.

As I said before, even on "just" a GTX 1080, I'm running everything on at least 10 MP (and this HMD is 16 MP).

 

[User Name Here]

Looks huge.

 

[Raticus79]

Sub'd. Now let's see those price tiers.

Wish they would just call it "4K per eye".

 

[Soi-Fong]

I thought I remember reading somewhere that this will be limited to 60 hz...

 

[Durante]

I thought I remember reading somewhere that this will be limited to 60 hz...

You might be thinking of their (Pimax') first HMD.

 

[UrbanRats]

Higher resolution will be great, by the FOV was really the immersion killer for me, i think.
It's something i'm happy they're tackling.

Not because i like to move my eyes a lot, but just the peripheral vision, is so important (even if at super low resolution) to not make me feel like i'm watching at a TV in front of me.

 

[Paganmoon]

Still not sure about being able to push the required pixels for 2x4k screens in acceptable framerates. You say you push over 10MPs currently with the 1080 Durante, having a 1080 myself coupled with an i7 6700k, I'm occasionally dropping frames. Need to consider most VR games are made with small teams and rarely very optimized. It's great to get an HMD that is future proof though, and I'll be watching this one closely.

Also, regarding the pictures posted, it only has tracking on the "headband", not on the display part?

 

[Soi-Fong]

You might be thinking of their (Pimax') first HMD.

Ah it might've been that then. Are you thinking of actually kickstarting this Durante? Seems real interesting, but Star VR seemed like a thing also and nothing came out of that..

 

[Echelon079]

"I need healing!"

 

[Kaako]

Fuuugly. But I like them specs for the most part. The more HMDs like this that push the HMD tech/market forward, the better. Gen 2 HMDs should really push for native 120 Hz imo.

 

[Durante]

Also, regarding the pictures posted, it only has tracking on the "headband", not on the display part?

Most pictures are from old prototypes. The latest one is in the video I posted previously.

It's sadly low-res, but here's a screencap:

You can clearly see the standard sensor points.

Ah it might've been that then. Are you thinking of actually kickstarting this Durante? Seems real interesting, but Star VR seemed like a thing also and nothing came out of that..

If the HMD-only tier is less than $500 I'll probably back it.

 

[Paganmoon]

Most pictures are from old prototypes. The latest one is in the video I posted previously.

It's sadly low-res, but here's a screencap:

You can clearly see the standard sensor points.

Ahh. Nice.

 

[Shoyz]

Star VR did become something; just not a consumer headset. IIRC it was used for the old Walking Dead VR experience, and has a partnership with Imax, for Imax VR.

While the prices aren't finalized, comments I've read said that an old Kickstarter preview had the headset alone listed as $449/500 (early bird/non), and a preorder site for the full kit had it listed as $799.

 

[mrklaw]

With the increased field of view, could you do 'fake' forested rendering? Eg just render a similar 100-120 degree area at high detail, and the surroundings at lower detail? I'm guessing you won’t easily be able to look directly at the periphery and even if you could then the lenses perhaps won’t be completely crisp at the edges. The main benefit being more fully immersed with an image and being able to detect motion etc even without detail.

Would potentially save a lot of performance overhead.



Edit: already covered I think.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

This seems to actually fit in as the "ideal" HMD given where VR is today! Works with SteamVR and much like buying a modern high-res monitor it's far enough ahead of what computers can do well right now that it'll last you a good few years. IF it works, of course.

Honestly right now if I made a game with this in mind I'd not care about being able to fill every single pixel every frame on consumer hardware. With the tiny pixels you remove the screen door problem, so I bet if you just throw a quarter of the pixels at it that you could technically render on the device you're getting something that will look better than the Vive/Rift.

 

[tokkun]

Games are already doing that.
Multi-resolution shading is a way to accomplish it on almost any HW.
Lens-matched shading using multiple projection matrices is an even more efficient way on modern GPUs.

I don't think those are the same thing; multi-resolution shading may be a similar technical solution from the GPU side, but applied to a different issue.

As I understand it, those techniques are being applied to adjust for geometric distortion used to project the flat display on the lens, and would be applicable even with an ideal lens. I was suggesting that they also account for reduced resolving power in the periphery caused by diffraction on the ridge edges of a Fresnel lens.

 

[Raticus79]

It all depends on the game and settings. I've already played a few at 8k60 with DSR/GeDoSaTo with some headroom left.

With any luck those eye tracking add-ons for Vive will work with this one too.

Even without it, there are some optimizations that save needing to render the full 4K twice. Along with the other ones mentioned already, there's a distance where we can no longer detect parallax differences and you only need to render one "background" beyond that point, reusing it for both eyes.

 

[Durante]

I don't think those are the same thing; multi-resolution shading may be a similar technical solution from the GPU side, but applied to a different issue.

As I understand it, those techniques are being applied to adjust for geometric distortion used to project the flat display on the lens, and would be applicable even with an ideal lens. I was suggesting that they also account for reduced resolving power in the periphery caused by diffraction on the ridge edges of a Fresnel lens.

Right -- I was looking at it from the GPU side, where it's pretty much the same thing. So the technology is there (and already deployed in actual shipping games) to accomplish this.

 

[Josman]

I don't know how good this Will be, but It's trying to solve all my issues with current VR which are the narrow horizontal FOV (feels like you're in a space suit) and the low resolution, both of those things limit my presence feeling, I hope this is succesfull so that when Foveated rendering arrives this format becomes the norm.

 

[whitehawk]

Star VR did become something; just not a consumer headset. IIRC it was used for the old Walking Dead VR experience, and has a partnership with Imax, for Imax VR.

While the prices aren't finalized, comments I've read said that an old Kickstarter preview had the headset alone listed as $449/500 (early bird/non), and a preorder site for the full kit had it listed as $799.

Yup, I've tried Star VR at IMAX VR. It's not bad, but I'm worries this headset will have the same issue, having trouble seaming the two screens together in the middle.

I wonder if in the future it would be possible to have one giant curved 4k/8k screen. You'd need a big player like Samsung to do that though.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

Kickstarter hardware projects always seem like such a bad idea to back.

 

[Josman]

Road to VR’s Frank He went hands-on with a prototype of the 8K headset at this year’s CES, saying the headset’s 200 degree FOV was “impressive,” and that resolution-wise, he couldn’t discern sub-pixels “no matter how hard [he] looked.”

https://www.roadtovr.com/pimax-teases-next-generation-accessories-8k-vr-headset/

For such a small company, this looks promising

 

[Durante]

Kickstarter hardware projects always seem like such a bad idea to back.

I backed the Oculus KS for the $275 tier and got $800 worth of hardware out of it

 

[kami_sama]

I backed the Oculus KS for the $275 tier and got $800 worth of hardware out of it

Well, for every Oculus you have like ten rebranded Chinese products and around the same amount of mismanaged projects.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Yup, I've tried Star VR at IMAX VR. It's not bad, but I'm worries this headset will have the same issue, having trouble seaming the two screens together in the middle.

I wonder if in the future it would be possible to have one giant curved 4k/8k screen. You'd need a big player like Samsung to do that though.

Could it be the problem comes from the middle of the display being further away from your face than a flat version so your eyes can't see inwards(towards the nose) as much?
I think ideally you might want a pair of bowl shaped screens but I don't know what kind of lenses that would mean.

 

[Thraktor]

It all depends on the game and settings. I've already played a few at 8k60 with DSR/GeDoSaTo with some headroom left.

With any luck those eye tracking add-ons for Vive will work with this one too.

Even without it, there are some optimizations that save needing to render the full 4K twice. Along with the other ones mentioned already, there's a distance where we can no longer detect parallax differences and you only need to render one "background" beyond that point, reusing it for both eyes.

The higher the resolution the further away that distance is, though (which is one of the less talked about benefits of higher res HMDs, that depth perception becomes much better at further distances from the player).

 

[Shoyz]

Kickstarter hardware projects always seem like such a bad idea to back.

I've never backed a hardware kickstarter out of fears. But in the case of this headset and some other kickstarters, it seems like this is more for the publicity that Kickstarter brings than anything, judging by the fact they've already had a previous headset shipped. Do kickstarters from established companies fail often?

 

[Fredrik]

It's apparently lighter than the initial Vive, and it uses the head mounting variation everyone seems to have settled on, so I don't think that's a big issue.

This (infuriatingly low-res) video shows what I believe is their most recent prototype.
(This one also has the typical lighthouse tracking sensors)

That looks surprisingly good!
What's up with the cooling fans though? Is that a problem on current HMDs?

 

[Fezan]

Looks like PSVR style headset are the design of all future VR

 

[snap]

This might be the first Kickstarter I back, if they have an early bird package that's less than $500. You can get their last one for $330 so hopefully it'll be priced similarly. Anyone know of a way that you can get a text or an email when it goes live?

 

[Durante]

That looks surprisingly good!
What's up with the cooling fans though? Is that a problem on current HMDs?

Not really, but there are some similar add-ons out there.

I think with that (and the smell thing) they simply wanted to make a point of just how modular it is, so they threw everything they could think of at it.

 

[dampflokfreund]

Wait, what... The add-ons are the real killer feature. You can even add eye tracking and.. a scent module?!

 

[RadioactiveLobster]

I imagine even if you are rendering at a lower resolution the shear pixel density of the headset and the lack of the screen door effect would make text a lot more readable in this HMD.

Elite: Dangerous, which has a lot of UI elements and text can be a pain to read in the Rift.

 

[tokkun]

Yup, I've tried Star VR at IMAX VR. It's not bad, but I'm worries this headset will have the same issue, having trouble seaming the two screens together in the middle.

That was the complaint RoadToVR had about their CES prototype.

https://www.roadtovr.com/hands-pimaxs-8k-headset-proves-high-fov-vr-coming/

The FOV (Field of View) was also impressive, feeling close to the aforementioned StarVR’s. Of course, the ultra-wide FOV was beneficial to peripheral awareness, but in terms of actual added immersion, I’m not sure if there was much of a real benefit. However, there were a few issues which perhaps hindered this. Issues include low brightness from the displays, weird inconsistent warping or geometric distortion when getting farther away from the center of the lenses, an inaccurate distortion profile in general, a low binocular overlap (the volume of FOV that overlaps between both eyes), and a very little bit of ghosting and/or smearing in motion. All of these issues unfortunately formed a barrier against proper immersion in the game. The low binocular overlap seemed to be the biggest immersion killer alongside the warping/distortion, whilst the low brightness and smearing were slight – far beyond that found in the Oculus Rift DK1 of course. It’s uncertain whether more time to play around with the IPD adjustment and time to get used to the distortion would have improved the experience.

 

[bomblord1]

That was the complaint RoadToVR had about their CES prototype.

https://www.roadtovr.com/hands-pimaxs-8k-headset-proves-high-fov-vr-coming/

That's the kind of stuff I'm worried about.

 

[Fredrik]

That was the complaint RoadToVR had about their CES prototype.

https://www.roadtovr.com/hands-pimaxs-8k-headset-proves-high-fov-vr-coming/

Sounds like the issues when using a triple screen setup where the side screens have oval circles. It's not a big issue for me when racing since everything moves so fast anyway but for VR I think it could be a problem.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Wait, what... The add-ons are the real killer feature. You can even add eye tracking and.. a scent module?!

I mean, it has a cooling module that blows air over your face.

Game changer right there.

 

[Dreamwriter]

I imagine even if you are rendering at a lower resolution the shear pixel density of the headset and the lack of the screen door effect would make text a lot more readable in this HMD.

Elite: Dangerous, which has a lot of UI elements and text can be a pain to read in the Rift.

Elite Dangerous’ text issues have little to do with screen door effect, and everything to do with the colors chosen for that text. A 4k display using the same screen tech would still be hard to read with orange. If you change the text to green or cyan (by editing a settings file), it is very easy to read. Orange kinda sucks on Rift because of the way the pixels are organized - Rift uses a Pentile OLED display, where instead of every pixel including all three R,G,B colors, there are more Green color elements than Red or Blue. So Elite’s orange text has its color elements more spread out.

 

[snap]

That was the complaint RoadToVR had about their CES prototype.

https://www.roadtovr.com/hands-pimaxs-8k-headset-proves-high-fov-vr-coming/

man that's a shame, i got all excited and everything

 

[Azure Dream]

Seems like a Vive 1.2. That's not really a bad thing, I dig that it's mostly what already works. Should talk to Valve about getting those Knuckles controllers, though.

I like that they posted the draft up for feedback first, haven't seen many KSers publicly do that.

Literally the only other thing I would have needed to be on board was eye tracking so that Foveated rendering could be a thing.

Otherwise an "8K" screen like this is utterly useless on even the most powerful hardware.

needs eye tracking for foveated rendering

Maybe it was added after you looked, but the video states there's an optional eye-tracking module. I wish it was standard, but it sounds like it'll be available.

 

[Durante]

Seems like a Vive 1.2. That's not really a bad thing, I dig that it's mostly what already works.

I wouldn't call it a "1.2" with those specs. I mean, it's 8 times the resolution. I didn't expect that before 2019 at the earliest.

That was the complaint RoadToVR had about their CES prototype.

Well, CES was the better part of a year ago. They claim that they have since completely replaced the optics and resolved those issues.

We do need more in-depth reviews of their current prototype of course.

 

[whitehawk]

Well, CES was the better part of a year ago. They claim that they have since completely replaced the optics and resolved those issues.

We do need more in-depth reviews of their current prototype of course.

I tried it at IMAX VR in LA only a month or so ago.

I made a thread talking about it: http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?p

 

[Paganmoon]

I tried it at IMAX VR in LA only a month or so ago.

I made a thread talking about it: http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?p

This kickstarter isn't for Star VR though. (and you seem to have truncated your link http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1416009&highlight=)

And as Durante mentions, we need some reviews/hands on tests of this Pimax HMD.
Hope Tested can do a hands on test during the Kickstarter.

 

[isamu]

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!

I don't give a shit if it's 1080P per eye. Hell, it could be 480P per eye for all I care, and I'd STILL be on board!! I have a rift and the resolution has never been a factor for me. I couldn't care less about it. Field of View on the other hand, is extremely important! The 110° FOV in the Rift is an immersion killer and drives me up the wall! I hate it!! Been waiting patiently on the sidelines for an HMD with higher fov and always said I'd buy whichever one comes out first. 200° FOV??? LOL I'm all over this shit day ZERO!!!!!!

Playing F-ZeroGX in this thing:

 

[Rushersauce]

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!

I don't give a shit if it's 1080P per eye. Hell, it could be 480P per eye for all I care, and I'd STILL be on board!! I have a rift and the resolution has never been a factor for me. I couldn't care less about it. Field of View on the other hand, is extremely important! The 110° FOV in the Rift is an immersion killer and drives me up the wall! I hate it!! Been waiting patiently on the sidelines for an HMD with higher fov and always said I'd buy whichever one comes out first. 200° FOV??? LOL I'm all over this shit day ZERO!!!!!!

Playing F-ZeroGX in this thing:

isamu
OMFG HOLY MOTHER OF MARY IN HEAVEN I CANT BELIEVE IT WTF WHERE ARE MY SEDATIVES AAAAHHH
(Today, 06:09 PM)

 

[Naked Snake]

Wow this sounds great. Resolution is my main gripe with the Vive and Rift.

 

[RadioactiveLobster]

Elite Dangerous’ text issues have little to do with screen door effect, and everything to do with the colors chosen for that text. A 4k display using the same screen tech would still be hard to read with orange. If you change the text to green or cyan (by editing a settings file), it is very easy to read. Orange kinda sucks on Rift because of the way the pixels are organized - Rift uses a Pentile OLED display, where instead of every pixel including all three R,G,B colors, there are more Green color elements than Red or Blue. So Elite’s orange text has its color elements more spread out.

Well it won't hurt anything to have a lot higher pixel density and resolution.

 

[Auto-Reply]

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!

I don't give a shit if it's 1080P per eye. Hell, it could be 480P per eye for all I care, and I'd STILL be on board!! I have a rift and the resolution has never been a factor for me. I couldn't care less about it. Field of View on the other hand, is extremely important! The 110° FOV in the Rift is an immersion killer and drives me up the wall! I hate it!! Been waiting patiently on the sidelines for an HMD with higher fov and always said I'd buy whichever one comes out first. 200° FOV??? LOL I'm all over this shit day ZERO!!!!!!
...

I'm sort of the opposite, everytime I'm playing Google Earth VR I wish for higher res, the diving mask FOV is barely ever a concern for me.
More FOV is cool of course, but if I can see further into the distance by having higher res (thus not having everything blurred to hell in the distance) then that's way more important to me. More FOV means more peripheral vision, being able to see sharply what's in front of you more than a few feet away... that's way more important to me because we are still fixed to the center of the lenses without foveated with eye tracking, the benefits of more fov only start to come out when that's implementet.
-
Another thought on the design of the HMD, it looks like sticking out dangerously wide at the sides for some of my favorite applications. I feel like we need that curved/flexible/foldable screen-tech in there to get to an HMD with form factor and full fov in check.

 

[Tain]

knowing that isamu is out here getting excited for high-end VR headsets so he can play F-Zero GX is very comforting tbh

 

[elyetis]

Bought a flat so I probably won't go crazy and back it. But it sure is good to see those spec, and I sure hope all new hmd will be in that ballpark.
I have 3 grip with the current hmd :
- sde : and it's impact on immersion
- resolution : mostly when it comes to details in the distance, but also because it make desktop use pretty much a no no
- fov
And those spec all go in the right direct to alleviate the three of them.

I guess the big increase in resolution without foveated rendering+ eye tracking is not perfect with current hardware, but while it might not be fully used for something like Skyrim VR the same won't be true for all the other game, or for even Virtual Desktop.