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"'Destiny 2' Included a Legendary Gauntlet With a White Supremacist Logo"

Hoo-doo

Banned
I don't even know what kek is. I'm not surprised if most of bungie didn't either

Well, someone at bungie did. And they probably thought it was cool to sneak this one in to brag about it on /v/ or /pol/.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a thread unearthed from 4chan already where the OP goes 'sup guise i'm a designer for Destiny 2, ask me anything'.
 
Video games are a solitary hobby focusing on escapist power fantasies that can make people who don't have much agency in their lives feel empowered. While there are many games that take advantage of that and cover political and social issues for the better, the medium also goes hand in hand with internet communities who lack real social interactions and stay within certain circles to make each other feel better about things in life they don't like or understand.

That's why these people get mad when someone reviews a game they like poorly--as they interpret it as an attack on them because of their need for the game--that's why these people get mad when particularly a female criticizes a game for being about toxic masculinity, and that's why these people people get mad when a person of color wants to talk about the need for inclusion. To those on 4chan, gamergate, alt-right Reddit communities, and elsewhere--video games are not for anyone else except them. This is the kind of mentality that sprouts up when people spend much of lives and our basically raised by the internet.

I truly love video games, and it's one of my favorite hobbies, but there's a dark side to it that not many people are willing to accept at all.
This quote from the villain in Mafia 3 (a videogame about racism in 1960s USA) I feel is apt towards socially inadequate gamers who act as authoritarians and gatekeepers to anyone that isn't straight/white/male in gaming spaces:

"The world is changing. Used to be people knew their place, now everybody's screaming about equality, and how they all deserve a slice of the pie. Niggers, micks, gooks, you name it. Our way of doin' things won't work in a world like that."

The world is changing for these young angry straight white males. It's not just catered to them anymore. They're not the only demographic. Their voices aren't the only ones being heard. Equality feels like oppression to the privileged. These gamers who hang out in 4chan/voat/8chan/reddit spouting off language similar to that quote, go on about "the great replacement" and white genocide. These are scared, sad, and very angry people who didn't find a healthy outlet in life or a teaching moment to change their unhealthy thinking. They are most likely unemployed with not much going on. So they project their hatred onto others. When a cause to fight against equality, representation, and "anti-white" came about, they joined the ranks of far right extremists. First, it was just far right jokes and memes. With not a care for anyone else but people like them. They joined circles that were against progressive values that could be perceived as "anti-white" and against straight white males, which just happened to be nazi stomping grounds. They finally made friends. They had found a tribe that cared about just people like them. Then the call to action came about. They mobilised in rallies. Waved their flags. And some even conducted violence with a righteous cause. The majority of terrorist attacks in the USA specifically, were by far right extremists with similar ideologies (115 out of 201 US terrorist incidents from 2008-2016 compared to 63 from Islamic extremists). This is where it ends up.

deandre-harrid-deandre-harris-being-beaten.jpg

170813002022-34-charlottesville-white-nationalist-protest-0812-exlarge-169.jpg

charlottesville-protests-car-crash-ht-jt-170813_12x5_992.jpg


The Charlottesville killer beat up his mom and threatened her with a knife because she told him to stop playing videogames. Now does this narrative apply to some obsessed gamers who only lean to the far right? No. 19 of those terrorist incidents from 2008-2016 were by far left extremists. Videogames aren't the only avenue for lonely people to find solace in. But it goes to show that disillusioned lonely people with little to no social mobility are more vulnerable to extreme ideologies, and it can go from just hateful jokes, harassment (gamergate), then to violence.
 

seat

Member
I can't believe Bungie doesn't have the balls to say that this is intentional, which it obviously is, and that they will fire the scum who made this. I believe this to be a legitimate reason to start boycotting their products.
 

Kinyou

Member
I am definitely saying that if you continue to knowingly use the ok hand sign and kek, you are a part of the problem.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with using the OK handsign. It's actually culturally ingrained. It would be silly to just give it up because some idiots decided to use it.

The church in Spain also hasn't given up on their traditional clothing because of the KKK
I can't believe Bungie doesn't have the balls to say that this is intentional, which it obviously is, and that they will fire the scum who made this. I believe this to be a legitimate reason to boycott their company.
I'd rather have them investigate this internally instead of instantly jumping to a conclusion
 

thumb

Banned
True, it's clear something is a bit questionable when this is the first thread they post in after two years while still being a junior member.

But is it really a "burner" account when they use the same user name on both Twitter and Reddit, where they not only post about Destiny, but also about their "God Emperor Trump" and liberals trying to destroy free speech?

Perhaps this is one of those "if a tree falls in the forest" questions.

This is a fair point. I did not take the time to look into the account.
 
I can't believe Bungie doesn't have the balls to say that this is intentional, which it obviously is, and that they will fire the scum who made this. I believe this to be a legitimate reason to start boycotting their products.
Cool. Have fun with that. The rest of the world will appreciate their swift action and let them handle any internal reviews themselves, as opposed to polling the internet for a course of action.
 

thumb

Banned
I can't believe Bungie doesn't have the balls to say that this is intentional, which it obviously is, and that they will fire the scum who made this. I believe this to be a legitimate reason to start boycotting their products.

I took their language to mean that the senior decision makers did not intend to embed this imagery in their game. It is not part of their vision, and does not reflect the company's values. That is different than saying that it was unintentional all the way down to the single employee or contractor who created it.
 

Audioboxer

Member
I'm apparently gonna blow your mind here:
X5zyDEP.gif

Also, look at the number of white lines on the Destiny icon. Now look at the white spaces between the black lines on the flag. There's no way to dimiss this many elements as incidental.




This is simplistic to the absurd to dismiss (effectively) identical designs.

Not really I'm judging the images on the way in which they are default orientated. The question is how many degrees of separation do you need to get to before you can entertain it being an unfortunate coincidence?

With a lot of things in life if you start rotating them and thinking every single line or circle or letter could be something nefarious you'll make patterns and conclusions out of just about anything. I don't think that is absurd but if you do I concede that argument to you as I'm not wanting to spend ages going around in circles.

That part is irrelevant. You simply don't care about the ramifications of the symbols you use.



Nazis pay attention, so when something like this happens, the response is important. Nazism and its symbols are taboo, so when something is outed as pro-Nazi, it's completely reasonable, even if you are pro-Nazi, for that symbol to be removed, due to these taboos currently being what they are.

But the imagery getting into the game, getting released, and then ending up in the news, is a "win" for them regardless of the response. So that response needs to be swift and decisive. If someone gets fired over it, it will discourage any Nazis following the story far more than the simple removal would.



The identity and affiliations of whoever put that shit in the game are irrelevant. A problem is a problem.



Exactly. This shit has to be nipped in the bud.



Thank you.



He's referencing the fact that the overall downplaying of fascist bullshit in America is following the same pattern that was followed in Germany leading up to WWII. Hitler only had about 50 followers when he started, people thought fascism was a joke/too unpopular to do anything, and nobody took it seriously until it was too late.



Thank you very much.



Again, I need to point out that this sort of protective analysis is very rarely afforded to those who are victims of white supremacy.




I am definitely saying that if you continue to knowingly use the ok hand sign and kek, you are a part of the problem.

I would rather someone only be fired if there is probable cause and some sort of evidence to justify someone being without an income and unemployed. Not just to make a point. Making a point was apologising and patching the design out. That has been my stance all along.
 
Not really I'm judging the images on the way in which they are default orientated. The question is how many degrees of separation do you need to get to before you can entertain it being an unfortunate coincidence?

With a lot of things in life if you start rotating them and thinking every single line or circle or letter could be something nefarious you'll make patterns and conclusions out of just about anything. I don't think that is absurd but if you do I concede that argument to you as I'm not wanting to spend ages going around in circles.



I would rather someone only be fired if there is probable cause and some sort of evidence to justify someone being without an income and unemployed. Not just to make a point. Making a point was apologising and patching the design out. That has been my stance all along.

People have been fired for much less than large-scale "inadvertent" Nazi sympathy.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using the OK handsign. It's actually culturally ingrained. It would be silly to just give it up because some idiots decided to use it.

The church in Spain also hasn't given up on their traditional clothing because of the KKK

I'd rather have them investigate this internally instead of instantly jumping to a conclusion

The ok hand sign is a very small thing to give up in opposition to Nazism, but okay. It's definitely more important that it remains a tool for your expression than removing the risk of dog whistling Nazis.
 

thumb

Banned
I would rather someone only be fired if there is probable cause and some sort of evidence to justify someone being without an income and unemployed. Not just to make a point. Making a point was apologising and patching the design out. That has been my stance all along.

I recognize that you are debating in good faith. But I just want to point out that your primary worry seems to be about whether a single artist has to find a new job, not the inclusion of white supremacy in a massive game with world-wide reach. You are deeply and passionately concerned for the temporary unemployment of this artist. I hope that you will also direct those concerns to the larger issues at play.
 
Thanks for taking the time to write this all out. Well said.

Excellent.

Symbols of hate are not a low stakes game to be blown off as semantics or probably just funny.

Damn. Finale Fireworker laying out the bare, hard, cold truth, as always.

One of the best posts I've seen in a while. Thank you.

Unfortunately, the issue with that poster specifically is not that he doesn't understand. It's that he does understand and either doesn't care or falls more in line with those who use those symbols.

Thank you very much.

Usually by the time I finish writing these posts out, the person it was intended for bailed on the thread or was banned in the time it took to write. I appreciate that other people value the message.
 
The ok hand sign is a very small thing to give up in opposition to Nazism, but okay. It's definitely more important that it remains a tool for your expression than removing the risk of dog whistling Nazis.
You understand that your attitude plays directly into the wishes and intentions behind people doing these things, right? "Oh, they started using this common symbol, better make sure no one else uses it!" only encourages them to keep doing it with other common gestures, icons or symbols.
 

thumb

Banned
Usually by the time I finish writing these posts out, the person it was intended for bailed on the thread or was banned in the time it took to write. I appreciate that other people value the message.

It doesn't really matter whether the person it was directed to reads it. What matters is that other people will read it, and it will help provide perspective that may be missing to them. There are always more people reading than posting.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I recognize that you are debating in good faith. But I just want to point out that your primary worry seems to be about whether a single artist has to find a new job, not the inclusion of white supremacy in a massive game with world-wide reach. You are deeply and passionately concerned for the temporary unemployment of this artist. I hope that you will also direct those concerns to the larger issues at play.

It's possible to be staunchly against white supremacy and alt-right fuckery while also allowing the possibility that this wasn't absolutely, 100% intentional inclusion of white supremacist iconography. I think a lot of people in this thread are so immediately convinced that has to be intentional that they conflate anyone questioning the possibility of it being unintentional with an intent to play down the effects of (or even support) white supremacy in general, which is nonsense.

I have no reason to think that Audiboxer is a person who doesn't take bigotry seriously, for example, just because he is looking at this from a slightly different perspective.
 

Walshicus

Member
It's possible to be staunchly against white supremacy and alt-right fuckery while also allowing the possibility that this wasn't absolutely, 100% intentional inclusion of white supremacist iconography. I think a lot of people in this thread are so immediately convinced that has to be intentional that they conflate anyone questioning the possibility of it being unintentional with an intent to play down the effects of (or even support) white supremacy in general, which is nonsense.

Never discount the possibility... but it seems VERY far fetched.
 

Kinyou

Member
The ok hand sign is a very small thing to give up in opposition to Nazism, but okay. It's definitely more important that it remains a tool for your expression than removing the risk of dog whistling Nazis.
Don't you see how much power you hand them by letting them turn anything into a symbol of white supremacy?

Guess we all should hope they dont target the smiley face next
 

Gestault

Member
Not really I'm judging the images on the way in which they are default orientated.

Had you realized the orientation of the sleeve icon in the game is veritcal, so it matches up exactly with the flag? The original orientations match.

With a lot of things in life if you start rotating them and thinking every single line or circle or letter could be something nefarious you'll make patterns and conclusions out of just about anything.

The way you're trying again to abstract this to the point of absurdity, basically, "well these shapes and colors could mean anything," is indistinguishable from a deliberate tactic from someone not acting in good faith. Unless you'd like to explain away the last several exchanges, I truly expect you to go silent. That's the pattern, anyway.
 
i feel crazy reading some of these replies.

it's an incredibly simple, minimal design. i've never heard of "kekistan" or seen that flag ever. it seems pretty obscure. i'm willing to give anonymous destiny artist the benefit of the doubt that its a coincidence.

ya'll need to chill. marching around wanting to fire everyone all the time
 

dubq

Member
I just got the leg armor with this same symbol on it last night. =/



That's not a white supremacist logo. KEK has been a meme for years.
It is now.



i feel crazy reading some of these replies.

it's an incredibly simple, minimal design. i've never heard of "kekistan" or seen that flag ever. it seems pretty obscure. i'm willing to give anonymous destiny artist the benefit of the doubt that its a coincidence.

ya'll need to chill. marching around wanting to fire everyone all the time
You've never heard of it so it must not be a thing. Good to know.
 

Alucrid

Banned
That's not a white supremacist logo. KEK has been a meme for years.

wow thank you had not heard of this before in the entire thread

i feel crazy reading some of these replies.

it's an incredibly simple, minimal design. i've never heard of "kekistan" or seen that flag ever. it seems pretty obscure. i'm willing to give anonymous destiny artist the benefit of the doubt that its a coincidence.

ya'll need to chill. marching around wanting to fire everyone all the time

oh yeah i want everyone to be fired all the time permanent unemployment is my only goal
 

dawgparty

Member
With a lot of things in life if you start rotating them and thinking every single line or circle or letter could be something nefarious you'll make patterns and conclusions out of just about anything. I don't think that is absurd but if you do I concede that argument to you as I'm not wanting to spend ages going around in circles.

8DPv8AY.jpg
 

Nairume

Banned
That's not a white supremacist logo. KEK has been a meme for years.
It's KEK arranged exactly to look like an old KKK symbol while placed upon a recollored Nazi battle flag. You'd be daft to ignore the imagery the are employing with the meme now.
 
Why is it that videogames are becoming so synonymous with alt righters? What did games did to deserve being connected to hate symbols like this?

I hate my hobby sometimes.

I mean, video games are a hobby that had been catering exclusively to young white men for years. It's also a hobby where the racist portion of these young white men have a space to be a racist as they want to be, largely due to the fact that no one ever said, fuck off with that shit. Big corporations and platform holders always talk about how they're against racism and harassment and use their diversity buzzwords but they've never been really serious about policing that garbage.

Now racism is so normalized that they can't really do much to fix it. Well actually they could do a lot to fix it and show that gaming is not a place for racism, but they don't want to piss off the alt right, racist, women harassing part of their customer base.
 
Comment directed at the people comparing this to looking for Jesus on toast or Satan in reverse records.

Kekistan is incredibly popular among gamers. If I had to guess, 95 percent or more of the people who promote or consider themselves part of Kekistan are gamers. Kekistan it's self was created by gamers. Destiny is also a game made by gamers.

Also this is Kekistan not kek.
 

Forward

Member
It pisses me off that both Pepe and "kek" have become white supremacist shit, I liked early Pepe stuff when it was just idiotic memes, now it's been stolen by racists and white supremacists.

STOP RUINING EVERYTHING WHITE SUPREMACISTS.

But... how? Their very existence precludes the hope that whatever they touch remain untainted.

More like: STOP WHITE SUPREMACISTISM.

THAT would be a great thing.

Supremacistism because there is no such thing as racial supremacy. Don't let those jackholes take the term supremacy, too. It's bad enough they make White such a dark term. But therein is yet another aspect of racist fuckery.

"Dark ~ Black = Bad", "Light ~ White = Good" and all the crap implicitly loaded within those correlations, pressed upon the simple-minded from birth onward.

Even the sun gets a bad rap due to villainous human stupidity.
 

MayMay

Banned
I am definitely saying that if you continue to knowingly use the ok hand sign and kek, you are a part of the problem.

👌👌👌 :eek:k_hand:


You have to be fucking joking. Let's all stop drinking water while we're at it because I guarantee 100% of Nazis drink that too.
 
^^ 👌
The OK hand signal, is the OK hand signal.
That's not a white supremacist logo. KEK has been a meme for years.
The Kekistan flag/symbol is a white supremacist symbol used by white supremacists.
KEK has been a meme for years.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=248828939&postcount=987
i feel crazy reading some of these replies.

it's an incredibly simple, minimal design. i've never heard of "kekistan" or seen that flag ever. it seems pretty obscure. i'm willing to give anonymous destiny artist the benefit of the doubt that its a coincidence.

ya'll need to chill. marching around wanting to fire everyone all the time
Whether or not you're heard about or seen it before is irrelevant to its status as a white supremacist symbol.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=248833628&postcount=1017
 
I am definitely saying that if you continue to knowingly use the ok hand sign and kek, you are a part of the problem.
If you immediately stop using whatever commonplace symbolism they attempt to co-opt you're literally driving the problem and feeding into what they're hoping to happen. As soon as you surrender one, they'll move to the next.

Astounded at the ignorance required to think that anyone now using 👌 anywhere in the world is driving white supremacy, as opposed to people like yourself clearing a path for them to move through.
 

Gestault

Member
While I am sure it is futile to try to give you some perspective, I will join others in trying.

The first problem here is that you don't understand what it means to be "offended." You are viewing different levels of reaction as identical. For some reason, you are conditioned to believe having a passionate response to anything is a sign of weakness or failure. You think it's the responsibility of every able-minded citizen to disengage and not care about what's going on around them. This is probably because you have never been affected by the operations an authority or a society that makes express attempts at eliminating you for how you were born or what you look like.

What you think it means to be offended is actually what it means to be insulted.

It is insulting to tell somebody to fuck off. It is insulting to place a crucifix in a jar of piss. It is insulting to take a selfie with an open casket. It is insulting to remove a silver cloche to reveal shit on a plate in a fancy restaurant. Being insulted is a virtue of sensibility - people react differently to an insulting stimulus based on all kinds of varying factors. This is why some people might think it's funny and some people might be distressed. Not everyone will react the same way to somebody streaking at a sporting event. Some might turn their nose in disgust and others might cheer and clap.

But there is lots of room in society for insult and injury and it's all right that not everyone feels the same way about these things. While the appropriateness of these gestures can be debated and discussed, they are not an act of hatred or degradation. Society is not set back or fractured because somebody said something rude or did something abnormal.

But some insults are greater and have stronger impacts than saying "you're a really terrible athlete, you should quit the team." These things can hurt someone's feelings, and they might make you an asshole for saying them, but they do not normalize the idea that other human beings are lesser than you. They do not encourage the thought that you should rape and kill at your leisure and discretion. They do not promote the idea that people need to stay in their place or face brutal and unforgiving consequences.

They are not inherent acts of hatred. They are not intended to be acts of violence. Other things are.

Calling somebody a fucking faggot is not the same as telling somebody to fuck off. Faggot has killed people. It has made people hate themselves and live in shame. It has torn apart families and castrated geniuses and cost people their livelihoods. It made people afraid to ask for help when they've been abused, it stopped them from getting medicine that might save their lives, it drove people underground and away from society for wanting to indulge in their basic human impulses. People who use this word don't want to offend you, they want to humiliate you. They want you to feel lesser and smaller and meaningless. They want you to not exist, to have never existed, and to never exist again. They want you fucking gone and they relish in the opportunity to advance that thought.

Does that mean every single use of the word faggot or nigger is motivated by this? No, not necessarily. But it means you should be very, very considerate in how you use these words. Because treating them like they mean nothing is an absolute failure in compassion. It says "what has happened to you doesn't matter." It says "your history is not important." It says "my joke is more important than your life."

Flags of the Confederacy and Kekistan and other white supremacist bull shit are offensive because they are constructs of exclusion. They are totems that say "I hate you and think your suffering is hilarious." They are explicitly designed to frighten, disparage, and disenfranchise other human beings. These things are not just insulting. They are not something you can shake off or ignore. These are assaults on the integrity of your existence. The implication is that there is none.

Hate speech has two goals:

1. Normalize and promote ideologies based on hateful division
2. Frighten people affected by those politics into submission

So, to combat them, you have one singular option: to react strongly and negatively. Because that's what people flying these flags don't want you to do. When you do, they laugh. They try to delegitimize your opposition as trite hysteria. They'll call you triggered, they'll call you SJWs, they'll laugh at you and make subreddits about raping and killing you because you're such worthless fucking trash. These are their attempts at making you stop - at silencing your opposition. They want you to fall in line with them or to enable them with your apathy. It doesn't matter which one, they win either way.

They are not just words or just symbols. People are not "giving them power," they are designed to be powerful. They are tools of attempted authority. They incite hostile response because that is how they are intended to work. They attempt to victimize as many people as possible in pursuit of ethnic and social dominance. And when you don't react to them, you reinforce them. When you don't take them seriously, they gain ground. When you give them a pass, they become justified and vindicated and validated and they cross more lines and make bolder plays for power.

When you say people shouldn't be getting upset over something that has historically ended the lives of people just like their friend and families, you're wrong.

You're selfish and you're wrong.

I didn't have the chance to read this until just now. This is exceptionally well stated. It should be read by anyone with the chance. Thank you for putting this together. It honestly makes the [now banned] other user's presence valuable, in its own strange way.
 

Trouble

Banned
I think this is a litmus test for gaf. Would you still wear these guantlets knowing its a KKK logo or dismantle this 300 light piece that will push your light level down by 10 levels?

This needs to be a poll.

Infuse it into another gauntlet.

E: holy shit this thread is 11 pages, now I look lame for replying to a first page post :p
 
I think this is a litmus test for gaf. Would you still wear these guantlets knowing its a KKK logo or dismantle this 300 light piece that will push your light level down by 10 levels?

This needs to be a poll.

lol this happened to me yesterday

This is my only legendary arm piece currently and I got another drop of the exact same thing with 10 light bigger.

-___-

I'm glad bungie are changing it. I wonder how soon we'll get a change.
 
you're arguing a point i didn't try and make. i didn't deny that its a white supremacist symbol. I said its obscure.

i won't be replying to this thread again
Guess I got confused by why that's something you pointed out to support the argument that it's a coincidence. If it's obscure, that implies that in order to replicate its design, you have to purposely search for it, or be in the know.
And if you agree that it's a white supremacist symbol, why would you think people are crazy for thinking the person should be fired?

Anyway, goodbye then. You should read the post quoted above yours before you leave.
 
lol this happened to me yesterday

This is my only legendary arm piece currently and I got another drop of the exact same thing with 10 light bigger.

-___-

I'm glad bungie are changing it. I wonder how soon we'll get a change.

They should change it into a discrete/concealed pride flag to take a dig at the people that "potentially" put it in the game.
 

Unity2012

Member
While I am sure it is futile to try to give you some perspective, I will join others in trying.

The first problem here is that you don't understand what it means to be "offended." You are viewing different levels of reaction as identical. For some reason, you are conditioned to believe having a passionate response to anything is a sign of weakness or failure. You think it's the responsibility of every able-minded citizen to disengage and not care about what's going on around them. This is probably because you have never been affected by the operations an authority or a society that makes express attempts at eliminating you for how you were born or what you look like.

What you think it means to be offended is actually what it means to be insulted.

It is insulting to tell somebody to fuck off. It is insulting to place a crucifix in a jar of piss. It is insulting to take a selfie with an open casket. It is insulting to remove a silver cloche to reveal shit on a plate in a fancy restaurant. Being insulted is a virtue of sensibility - people react differently to an insulting stimulus based on all kinds of varying factors. This is why some people might think it's funny and some people might be distressed. Not everyone will react the same way to somebody streaking at a sporting event. Some might turn their nose in disgust and others might cheer and clap.

But there is lots of room in society for insult and injury and it's all right that not everyone feels the same way about these things. While the appropriateness of these gestures can be debated and discussed, they are not an act of hatred or degradation. Society is not set back or fractured because somebody said something rude or did something abnormal.

But some insults are greater and have stronger impacts than saying "you're a really terrible athlete, you should quit the team." These things can hurt someone's feelings, and they might make you an asshole for saying them, but they do not normalize the idea that other human beings are lesser than you. They do not encourage the thought that you should rape and kill at your leisure and discretion. They do not promote the idea that people need to stay in their place or face brutal and unforgiving consequences.

They are not inherent acts of hatred. They are not intended to be acts of violence. Other things are.

Calling somebody a fucking faggot is not the same as telling somebody to fuck off. Faggot has killed people. It has made people hate themselves and live in shame. It has torn apart families and castrated geniuses and cost people their livelihoods. It made people afraid to ask for help when they've been abused, it stopped them from getting medicine that might save their lives, it drove people underground and away from society for wanting to indulge in their basic human impulses. People who use this word don't want to offend you, they want to humiliate you. They want you to feel lesser and smaller and meaningless. They want you to not exist, to have never existed, and to never exist again. They want you fucking gone and they relish in the opportunity to advance that thought.

Does that mean every single use of the word faggot or nigger is motivated by this? No, not necessarily. But it means you should be very, very considerate in how you use these words. Because treating them like they mean nothing is an absolute failure in compassion. It says "what has happened to you doesn't matter." It says "your history is not important." It says "my joke is more important than your life."

Flags of the Confederacy and Kekistan and other white supremacist bull shit are offensive because they are constructs of exclusion. They are totems that say "I hate you and think your suffering is hilarious." They are explicitly designed to frighten, disparage, and disenfranchise other human beings. These things are not just insulting. They are not something you can shake off or ignore. These are assaults on the integrity of your existence. The implication is that there is none.

Hate speech has two goals:

1. Normalize and promote ideologies based on hateful division
2. Frighten people affected by those politics into submission

So, to combat them, you have one singular option: to react strongly and negatively. Because that's what people flying these flags don't want you to do. When you do, they laugh. They try to delegitimize your opposition as trite hysteria. They'll call you triggered, they'll call you SJWs, they'll laugh at you and make subreddits about raping and killing you because you're such worthless fucking trash. These are their attempts at making you stop - at silencing your opposition. They want you to fall in line with them or to enable them with your apathy. It doesn't matter which one, they win either way.

They are not just words or just symbols. People are not "giving them power," they are designed to be powerful. They are tools of attempted authority. They incite hostile response because that is how they are intended to work. They attempt to victimize as many people as possible in pursuit of ethnic and social dominance. And when you don't react to them, you reinforce them. When you don't take them seriously, they gain ground. When you give them a pass, they become justified and vindicated and validated and they cross more lines and make bolder plays for power.

When you say people shouldn't be getting upset over something that has historically ended the lives of people just like their friend and families, you're wrong.

You're selfish and you're wrong.


Afterthought edit: I don't take my use of the language above lightly and I hope people will forgive its use in this context - it is meant to demonstrate the severity of the verbiage. I am uncomfortable still by even this use of the vocabulary and hope my intentions are plain.

Brilliant. Excellent read. I hope most people read it. Thank you.
 

Par Score

Member
Whoever was responsible for this better find their ass fired pretty damn quick.

Make no mistake: At any company worth half a damn this is a sack-able offence, and with absolutely understandable justification.

Don't even make it discrete, make that gauntlet the colors of the pride flag.

This is a great idea.
 

Nosgotham

Junior Member
i feel crazy reading some of these replies.

it's an incredibly simple, minimal design. i've never heard of "kekistan" or seen that flag ever. it seems pretty obscure. i'm willing to give anonymous destiny artist the benefit of the doubt that its a coincidence.

ya'll need to chill. marching around wanting to fire everyone all the time

exactly what im thinking.
 
While I am sure it is futile to try to give you some perspective, I will join others in trying.

The first problem here is that you don't understand what it means to be "offended." You are viewing different levels of reaction as identical. For some reason, you are conditioned to believe having a passionate response to anything is a sign of weakness or failure. You think it's the responsibility of every able-minded citizen to disengage and not care about what's going on around them. This is probably because you have never been affected by the operations of an authority or a society that makes express attempts at eliminating you for how you were born or what you look like.

What you think it means to be offended is actually what it means to be insulted.

It is insulting to tell somebody to fuck off. It is insulting to place a crucifix in a jar of piss. It is insulting to take a selfie with an open casket. It is insulting to remove a silver cloche to reveal shit on a plate in a fancy restaurant. Being insulted is a virtue of sensibility - people react differently to an insulting stimulus based on all kinds of varying factors. This is why some people might think it's funny and some people might be distressed. Not everyone will react the same way to somebody streaking at a sporting event. Some might turn their nose in disgust and others might cheer and clap.

But there is lots of room in society for insult and injury and it's all right that not everyone feels the same way about these things. While the appropriateness of these gestures can be debated and discussed, they are not an act of hatred or degradation. Society is not set back or fractured because somebody said something rude or did something abnormal.

But some insults are greater and have stronger impacts than saying "you're a really terrible athlete, you should quit the team." These things can hurt someone's feelings, and they might make you an asshole for saying them, but they do not normalize the idea that other human beings are lesser than you. They do not encourage the thought that you should rape and kill at your leisure and discretion. They do not promote the idea that people need to stay in their place or face brutal and unforgiving consequences.

They are not inherent acts of hatred. They are not intended to be acts of violence. Other things are.

Calling somebody a fucking faggot is not the same as telling somebody to fuck off. Faggot has killed people. It has made people hate themselves and live in shame. It has torn apart families and castrated geniuses and cost people their livelihoods. It made people afraid to ask for help when they've been abused, it stopped them from getting medicine that might save their lives, it drove people underground and away from society for wanting to indulge in their basic human impulses. People who use this word don't want to offend you, they want to humiliate you. They want you to feel lesser and smaller and meaningless. They want you to not exist, to have never existed, and to never exist again. They want you fucking gone and they relish in the opportunity to advance that thought.

Does that mean every single use of the word faggot or nigger is motivated by this? No, not necessarily. But it means you should be very, very considerate in how you use these words. Because treating them like they mean nothing is an absolute failure in compassion. It says "what has happened to you doesn't matter." It says "your history is not important." It says "my joke is more important than your life."

Flags of the Confederacy and Kekistan and other white supremacist bull shit are offensive because they are constructs of exclusion. They are totems that say "I hate you and think your suffering is hilarious." They are explicitly designed to frighten, disparage, and disenfranchise other human beings. These things are not just insulting. They are not something you can shake off or ignore. These are assaults on the integrity of your existence. The implication is that there is none.

Hate speech has two goals:

1. Normalize and promote ideologies based on hateful division
2. Frighten people affected by those politics into submission

So, to combat them, you have one singular option: to react strongly and negatively. Because that's what people flying these flags don't want you to do. When you do, they laugh. They try to delegitimize your opposition as trite hysteria. They'll call you triggered, they'll call you SJWs, they'll laugh at you and make subreddits about raping and killing you because you're such worthless fucking trash. These are their attempts at making you stop - at silencing your opposition. They want you to fall in line with them or to enable them with your apathy. It doesn't matter which one, they win either way.

They are not just words or just symbols. People are not "giving them power," they are designed to be powerful. They are tools of attempted authority. They incite hostile response because that is how they are intended to work. They attempt to victimize as many people as possible in pursuit of ethnic and social dominance. And when you don't react to them, you reinforce them. When you don't take them seriously, they gain ground. When you give them a pass, they become justified and vindicated and validated and they cross more lines and make bolder plays for power.

When you say people shouldn't be getting upset over something that has historically ended the lives of people just like their friend and families, you're wrong.

You're selfish and you're wrong.


Afterthought edit: I don't take my use of the language above lightly and I hope people will forgive its use in this context - it is meant to demonstrate the severity of the verbiage. I am uncomfortable still by even this use of the vocabulary and hope my intentions are plain.
Exceptional retort.
 
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