I'm the first person to give someone the benefit of doubt, but come on - that design is way too close to call it a coincidence.
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"'Destiny 2' Included a Legendary Gauntlet With a White Supremacist Logo"
- Thread starter Andronicus
- Start date
I'm the first person to give someone the benefit of doubt, but come on - that design is way too close to call it a coincidence.
good post!
Vigilant Gambit
Member
The ๖ۜBronx;248844881 said:
👌👌👌k_hand:
You have to be fucking joking. Let's all stop drinking water while we're at it because I guarantee 100% of Nazis drink that too.
The ๖ۜBronx;248851571 said:
At this point I should mention that the slippery slope argument is a very common one used by Nazis to try to downplay their bullshit. "Well, if I'm not allowed to speak my true feelings, where does that stop? What about free speech?"
Seriously take a step back from the conversation and analyze your viewpoint in context. Also, take your own identity into account. I imagine a lot of you "it's fine" guys are white, regardless of the country you live in. All of this shit, as far as you're likely concerned, is mere "politics" to you, for you to opt into and out of at your whim. But for folks like me, this shit is literally life and death.
Consider what you lose when you stop using the OK hand sign, vs what Nazis gain. We've posted the relevant articles again and again. Richard Spencer, Milo Yiannopolis, Donald Trump, the Proud Boys, Stormfront admins: all notable white supremacists that have been seen flashing this particular hand sign time and time again. What is worse? Not using it, making it a taboo, and discouraging its use among everyone, or letting the Nazis effectively gain a hate symbol they can use without repercussion?
We aren't asking you to show up for protests. Why is it so hard to convince you guys of this shit? I used the OK hand sign in a text the other day, and when I caught myself, I left it in the text, but took the opportunity to explain to the person that Nazis had stolen it. Instead of arguing, they said something along the lines of "Really? Damn it, we don't get to have anything."
Because that's what the fuck you do when someone tells you some shit has been co-opted by the Nazis. You shut it down, disown it, and make it not okay. Because Nazism is not okay.
I'm done arguing against that slippery slope bullshit. If it hurts too much to stop using Nazi symbols knowing that they have become Nazi symbols, you do you. Just don't get mad later on, when these guys start doing worse shit than assaulting and killing protesters.
If you're not gonna be a part of the solution, at least don't be a part of the fucking problem. That's really all I'm asking. It shouldn't warrant all this debate. The debate in itself plays into Nazi hands.
HiredN00bs
Member
The coincidence is that white supremecists/nationalists are stealing symbols that are not inherently hateful to use in their hate speech. The removed art was over 2 years old, well before it trended as a hate symbol. If you found out there was a Pepe reference in CoD: World at War, would you accuse Treyarch of harboring white supremecists?
Vigilant Gambit
Member
...the removed art that was based on a nearly century old KKK symbol paired up with a recollored Nazi flag is only a two year old thing that just got picked up later by racists. Okay.
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
I mean repeat tired phrases as much as you like but equating normal people now using 👌 in any context, anywhere, as being part of the problem is nothing short of lunacy.
Ragnorok64
Member
Holy crap I never fully understand what "kek" and "topkek" was and now it's already been co-opted by white supremacists? I also never had a clue what that frog thing was. I am legit getting old.
Like many things going on today, the Kekistan flag was made by "let's be racist because it's funny and offends people" edgelords, and was adopted un-ironically by actual real world bigots.
You want to re-appropriate what the alt right has recently appropriated... from what you originally appropriated? Go for it.
The ๖ۜBronx;248860640 said:
If you know that a symbol is being widely used by prominent Nazis to signal their devotion to white supremacy, and you decide that is not a good reason to stop using the symbol, I would question your judgment. Remember that even the swastica was derived from a symbol wholly unrelated to white supremacy. That's how this process works. It is not something new that happened to intrude on an innocent emoji.
Edit: Never mind. Apparently my thoughts on this were part of their hoax, but I'll still side eye the shit out of someone doing it in a trolling manner
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
I guarantee you that their use of 👌 is in no way widespread relative to its standard use worldwide. If you hand it over to them on a silver platter, perhaps that's likely to change.
Again, I'm not from the US. The absurdity of telling me I'm aiding white power by using said emoji in standard use in the UK is ridiculous.
Jawmuncher
Member
Was about to say the same thing.
depths20XX
Member
The "Ok" symbol ain't going nowhere. It's such a generic thing like the middle finger or peace sign. I see people use it all the time and they have no clue this is some white supremacist thing. It's so popular that trying to decide who and who isn't a white supremacist from it's usage is basically pointless.
Also that post by Vigilant Gambit has to be one of the most clueless things I've ever read.
OK sign has been universally understood in western civilization for a very long time. You are not going to let the racist mememakers just take an innocent symbol like that are you? It's silly and it gives too much power to these twats.
There is further context to the OK symbol bring used than just clasping your digits together and it's not nearly the same as a swastika being co-opted. Let try and stay sane here.
Audioboxer
Member
It's as this poster says
I don't think I can sum it up any better, I'll try one last time. But I really don't want to start getting stressed out with implied "you aren't a good faith poster because your line of thinking isn't 100% the same as mine in this topic" as when we reach that level of debate it leads to defensive situations and bickering. Not good. I'd rather leave "bad faith posters" to the trolls who come in like the chap we had earlier. I'm not trolling, I just don't have exactly the same opinion as yourselves down to a tee. I'm like 80~90% on board. I read the first few pages of replies in the topic, Bungie's response and then tried my best to articulate why I thought there was even a 1% chance this could be a messed up situation, rather than a situation with hostile intent. I still don't think it's out of the question, others do, fair enough, even with all the debating most of us are still set in our ways and there is nothing wrong with that given this whole situation does involve some fill in the blanks. Speculation and projection will be part of that. There has been a few people saying somewhat similar things to me, I'm not a lone wolf here which is usually a good sign something is seriously wrong with your opinion if genuinely no one else thinks it.
Everyone in the topic seems to agree Bungie was right to apologise and act (change the design), good, that's an important baseline. It is a bit suspect if someone can't even agree Bungie have ample reason to apologise and act here. Not everyone agrees it has to be 100% intentional PRIOR to an investigation/evidence though. You can still apologise and act on unintended consequences. Every company needs to and should. Although leaving an accidental cock and balls in your game is fine. At this moment in time, Bungie has just stated not intentional. Not everyone agrees someone should also be fired without evidence either. Personally, I'm simply not swayed by "people get fired for being late" or "companies can fire someone for anything" so deal with it. Nor am I going to be boxed into a corner where unless I agree Bungie should just fire someone to make a point, I'm somehow playing down white supremacy and will get labelled as such if I don't tweak my opinion. I can't rationalise in my head why anyone would want someone to be out of a job without it being fully justified? Why would you feel that way? Would you like to be out of your job and going home without knowing how you'll be paying your bills because of a genuine mistake, just to have a point made? A point was made, fuck the individuals, regardless of their complicity/intention in the act! Collateral. If someone creates a GAF topic about getting fired by their boss for being 1 minute late or fired for some other accident/mistake that wasn't the end of the world, most GAFers are sympathetic? You can literally see hundreds of posts saying "fire this piece of shit/cunt" prior to even knowing who the person (or team) is and their level of guilt/intent. We literally know nothing about any of the Bungie employees. Even if people were a bit clearer with a caveat of question who is responsible and if ill-intent, THEN fire. As I said earlier this isn't a public piece of drama/wrong-doing for the internet to comb through and see a face, person, name, background, social media accounts, videos and so on. Usually, that IS how it goes on the internet because it's about a public person(s) or social media, and the internet as a collective therefore has carte blanche to go gung-ho and attack the individual(s) who've done something. But it's not like that here. I don't think it's unfair to make that distinction.
I know the internet seems to see people being unemployed for doing wrong as the first and instant port of call, fair enough, I agree, actions have consequences. Many people do get fired or disciplined for doing things that are nasty/ill intended/abusive/etc. To make it doubly clear I do AGREE people should get fired for serious wrong-doing! Nobody twist my words, please. But usually, I think it's fair for actions to be confirmed as having intent/malice/causing purposeful harm before someone/some people are genuinely kicked to the curb with no livelihood. The internet does get it wrong sometimes, I shouldn't need to state that. The internet always wants a point to be made, but if the internet gets it wrong said point has whatever consequences that come along with the internets demands/actions. People in this topic picture in their heads who they are fighting against here, but you genuinely don't actually know in this singular instance. We know who the Neo-Nazis and white supremacists are, yes, but this topic is about a current unnamed and unidentified source. Bungie has apologised, patched the armour and said it wasn't intended, and from there we need to debate fill-in the blanks because there isn't any other info as of yet. As I said, no one even knows who we're talking about here, not unless you've gone through the Destiny 2 credits list or Bungie linkedin accounts and tracked people down. I wouldn't go and do that though, as if anyone starts doxing the Bungie designers/developers that would just be another level of nonsense. I'm not saying anyone here will do that, but people have been asking for named and shamed. Bungie isn't going to "dox" their own employees either.
Maybe Bungie will release some sort of further PR statement on the requests for someone to be fired, as if they're as vocal across social media as they are in here, I don't know if they can weather that PR storm without saying something eventually. They're not going to name names, but possibly say "we've investigated and conclusion x". I seriously doubt it though, so I think we're going to have to be left with whatever Bungie have said and that they've handled the situation appropriately. All of us can keep debating till the end of time but I think what Bungie have said, and their action of patching it out, might be all we get out of them.
The ๖ۜBronx;248862044 said:
Apparently drinking milk goes along with the OK hand sign. I really don't know how anyone can state we should re-think drinking milk though, so I really hope no one actually thinks that. There are some things in life that are just so universal to the 7 billion worldwide population you cannot really co-opt them. Milk is at least one of those, and I'd argue some basic hand gestures are too. If you're not a white supremacist drinking milk and using the OK hand emoji to say "Pizza is my favourite food 👌" I don't think anyone can really tell you that's questionable. What is fucked up is being a white supremacist, not drinking milk or saying OK with emojis. I think the masses of kids who overuse emojis in everything these days have our backs covered to keep emojis non-co-opted.
rackham
Banned
For me, Kek started out as a thing from World of Warcraft. Used to play it heavily in high school.
When I started going to 4chan it immediately became a sign of who was a moron and who wasn't. I could guess that if you were saying "kek" online you were most likely calling people "n****r" and "f****t" as well. That's just how supremacist losers from 4chan talk.
As for the hand symbol. Get fucking real.
When I started going to 4chan it immediately became a sign of who was a moron and who wasn't. I could guess that if you were saying "kek" online you were most likely calling people "n****r" and "f****t" as well. That's just how supremacist losers from 4chan talk.
As for the hand symbol. Get fucking real.
Trogdor1123
Member
I literally had no idea that image or that flag meant that.
Is it possible bungie is the same? Just thought it was a neat image? What process for investigation does an image go through before use in a game? Any?
Crazy stuff... Learnt something important today. Thanks folks!
Is it possible bungie is the same? Just thought it was a neat image? What process for investigation does an image go through before use in a game? Any?
Crazy stuff... Learnt something important today. Thanks folks!
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
https://www.adl.org/blog/no-the-ok-gesture-is-not-a-hate-symbol
https://www.wired.com/2017/05/alt-rights-newest-ploy-trolling-false-symbols/
Honestly, I have no clue anymore. For all I know, Citronella tiki torches are a symbol of white power now.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Holy shit, this rabbit hole is endless. From that 2nd link:
Who trolls the trolls when everything is trolling.
For whom the bell trolls
I see a lot of what's the big deal its just a symbol have probably never been on the side of the one receiving the hate. It's a symbol of hate plain and simple and is use degrade others. It sends a powerful message to those receiving the hate and those champion it. The ones champion this kind of things will see it as a form of powerment and that they could get away with it. The ones seeing it as a form of hate on them see it as degrading. Just closing ones eyes and playing ignorant just because it does not affect you at the moment is idiocy. It will one day may or may not affect you in one form or another just as many of my friends have.
This is a false comparison.
If I found out there was a Pepe symbol in CoD: WWII (you know, the game that's coming out this year) I would absolutely accuse Sledgehammer of harbouring white supremacists.
Dude, you really think the rise of another nazi empire will depend on whether people stop using the ok handsign? You tell people to take a step back, but maybe you should do so yourself.
This is about not giving the Nazis the power to co-opt any shit they want. They ok handsign is ingrained into culture.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I'm with you most of the time man but 👌🏾 isn't going anywhere. Unlike a flag or the Kek or the Pepe shit this is just default emojii in every phone on earth used in countries that don't have any ties to whatever bottom feeder sites these people frequent. Like it will never gain any traction.
I never suggested using it to wholly determine a random individual's feelings about white supremacy. That would be nuts, at least at present. No one here is unaware of its broad use. Regardless, other sources linked on this page suggest that coopting the "OK" symbol is also a "fake" effort to gaslight liberals, and those sources are legit. Still, it's worth keeping in mind that many such efforts can start as an ironic joke and escalate into a full-throated symbol. Kekistan was originally just a "joke" about identity politics, then it became a full-on Nazi symbol. I suspect there's less of a danger of that happening so quickly with "OK", but it's far from impossible.
Edit - I should note that "far from impossible" means "far from impossible over a lengthy period of time". And the larger points made by others remain true: my initial concern was unwarranted.
autoduelist
Member
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
Honestly, it all seems right up the alt-right's ally. The fact that it looks close, but is just off enough to make people question it like so many are in this thread plays directly into their hands. 4chan and other terrible places pride themselves on memes and symbols that so-called 'normies' wouldn't notice just to get them to participate in the activity or in this case, wear the symbol, whatever. It's the main reason why they focused on memes and shit like Pepe to get places like 4chan on their side.
With this armor for instance, they get everyone to wear an, at first glance, innocuous looking piece of gear to disarm people when it comes out that someone intentionally made it to resemble the kek flag. No one wants to initially think they were proudly displaying racist/nazi symbols, so the first instinct is to push back on those who point it out to them. Before you know it, you've got normal people trying to defend hateful propaganda and you've already started to push them towards your side. The ol' "Liberals are just so full of hate, look at the terrible things they say you did. And hey, it wasn't so bad, right? Wearing that swastika wasn't hurting anyone, but they're out to get you now. Don't let others tell you what to do." etc. etc.
It would make sense to stick this in a game like Destiny too, you've already got a large audience of gamers who are pretty receptive to this kind of messaging anyway. Destiny has mass appeal, but also attracts the type of people who are just at the right age to be receptive to counter-culture propaganda. Whoever made this is diabolical.
With this armor for instance, they get everyone to wear an, at first glance, innocuous looking piece of gear to disarm people when it comes out that someone intentionally made it to resemble the kek flag. No one wants to initially think they were proudly displaying racist/nazi symbols, so the first instinct is to push back on those who point it out to them. Before you know it, you've got normal people trying to defend hateful propaganda and you've already started to push them towards your side. The ol' "Liberals are just so full of hate, look at the terrible things they say you did. And hey, it wasn't so bad, right? Wearing that swastika wasn't hurting anyone, but they're out to get you now. Don't let others tell you what to do." etc. etc.
It would make sense to stick this in a game like Destiny too, you've already got a large audience of gamers who are pretty receptive to this kind of messaging anyway. Destiny has mass appeal, but also attracts the type of people who are just at the right age to be receptive to counter-culture propaganda. Whoever made this is diabolical.
Yes, that's a fair critique. See my above post.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
I only know kek from what I thought was English people saying 'top kek' in reaction to something funny / embarrassing online. Does this word overlap with the NaziVirgin army?
thepenguin55
Member
I mean, at some point you have to draw a line. If you take the approach of "I must cut out everything in my life associated with this symbol" then it starts to get absolutely ridiculous and to the point where you're just giving them more power. Guess I can't enjoy watching the Detroit Red Wings anymore because white supremacists have repurposed their logo. Sorry all entertainment where someone does an ok sign at some point (which as it turns out has happened A LOT in entertainment over the past 50 years). It's not ok for me to enjoy you anymore.
Bungie did the right thing here because this logo on the gear seemed very specific and it's hard to believe it wasn't inspired by the very similar looking white supremacist symbol. The symbol should have never made it into the game in the first place and the guy who did it should be reprimanded or (better yet) fired but taking a hard line stance against things like someone using the ok sign seems like major overkill that I just cannot get behind.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
So I got an update file. I assume it was to change the armor art.
Does anyone know what they changed it to?
Does anyone know what they changed it to?
Gotdatmoney
Member
Ah yeah I agree.
As a side note, its not about putting a stop to it guys. Like you cant coopt something so ingrained in culture that 500,000x the people in your group use it everyday paying you zero attention no matter how hard you try.
Freaking out about the ok sign and then pretending like the sky is falling and things cant just be things is dumb. Even the stupid Kekistan symbol is known by barely anyone and that's an extremely deliberate symbol. Now you think 👌🏾 is going anywhere?
Come on
See the above. This is just not what is happening lol
Acerac
Banned
Audioboxer
Member
By the way, someone in here asked what it looked like on a chest piece earlier
Another arm screencap
That second higher res picture does make it look more like >| |< than a K due to the outline around the shapes. As in > attached to a straight line |. Yes, |< can still read as a K. My favourite band is |<orn. You can read that as Korn (not my favourite band... lol). Just saying it appears the artist(s) have used lines/arrows for the whole design (shapes), not actually typing a K into the graphics design software.
edit: I think I'm partially colour blind. I went back and looked at the original image for this topic and you can make out a faint darker grey around the |<. It genuinely looked like one solid grey K to me prior to now, such as actually typing K on a keyboard, not piecing together | and <. The border around it is clearer to me in the second image above though than the original for this topic.
Another arm screencap
That second higher res picture does make it look more like >| |< than a K due to the outline around the shapes. As in > attached to a straight line |. Yes, |< can still read as a K. My favourite band is |<orn. You can read that as Korn (not my favourite band... lol). Just saying it appears the artist(s) have used lines/arrows for the whole design (shapes), not actually typing a K into the graphics design software.
edit: I think I'm partially colour blind. I went back and looked at the original image for this topic and you can make out a faint darker grey around the |<. It genuinely looked like one solid grey K to me prior to now, such as actually typing K on a keyboard, not piecing together | and <. The border around it is clearer to me in the second image above though than the original for this topic.
HiredN00bs
Member
? The removed art was based on what?
The point is that if, between the time at which the iconography is designed and when it is released as part of the final product, it is adopted as a symbol for hate groups, then it is most probably a coincidence, not a subversive reference made by a proponent for the hate group working in the studio.
Andronicus
Banned
i like the whole thing with people who have never and will never be affected by actual hate or discrimination come in here and tell others how they should react to symbols that represent hatred or oppression.
did they remove all of the other armor with the symbols?
did they remove all of the other armor with the symbols?
Doctoglethorpe
Member
Saw someone wearing it. Bungie forgot to change the inventory icon. :|
Perhaps in the case of Pepe (not at this point, though, maybe a year or so ago), but the Kekistan flag is a blatant recreation of the Nazi war flag. There's no "coincidence" here, it's hateful intentions were clear from the jump.
eot
Banned
People copy way more complex things by accident than this. It's not even the same design.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Chest is the only one that wouldn't be very apparent, mostly because of the color.
Jaguar Victory
Member
I want a pineapple/Canadian bacon pizza design to replace it. We pineapple on pizza lovers will not be silenced.
In my youth, I wrongly disparaged canadian bacon. I need those around me to know the depth of my regret. I understand now, better than I could have imagined in my earlier years, how my words might have affected those around me.
Canadian bacon, especially married with the sweet, complex flavor of pinapple, is a blessing in this world.
Maybe you should forge the nation of Pineappelachia and found The Knights Pizzlar?
My appreciation for Canadian bacon has taken a dark turn.
Prodigal Son
Member
lmao at kek being white supremacy. Okay
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