clarknova156
Member
So this is Spain's version of Brexit but will likely end up much more violent?
The fuck is wrong with this world man...
The fuck is wrong with this world man...
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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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You're talking about a state.
States.
Again state, but sure. That being said how is that relevant?
Right, you have to have both external and internal acceptance, "legitimacy" to be a functioning state.
Yeah, but that poster was talking about referendums in general.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
And, in fact, profited from the slave trade. Whenever you visit Park Guell in Barcelona, remember it was build with money from the slave trade.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Then why they acted against us with the violence of old imperialism colonies?
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Oh dont count on PSOE to fix anything, theyre opportunistic and corrupt as hell.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Some do.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Why is this a suprise? They "won" the "consultation" in 2014 also, only the nationalists turned out in large numbers.
Neither got much of a turnout.
All states are the based on the exercise of power. What happens when people start seeing that power as illegitimate? The difference between Metropole and colony and Metropole and province is more one of degree and reciprocal feelings than anything else.
ClosingADoor
Member
Yes, something needs to be done. After the events of today, and how Madrid made it even worse with the actions of the police, a solution needs to be found. Either an actual referendum (although not a fan myself as an EU citizen of another country, since I think it will create trouble and Spain is already not in the best shape) or more autonomy - and no backtracking on that like done before.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
Its almost exactly like Brexit but for some reason all my fake Leftist friends have decided to support this one.
Omega Kirby
Member
Well at least its more than a Micro Nation
All stand of the national anthem of Sealand
All stand of the national anthem of Sealand
That would be Felipe's 23F, stepping up like his father did and earning some of his bacon.
Silent Chief
Member
It's because you can keep subdividing until there is nothing left.
There are a lot of non-Catalan in Catalonia.
Almost every country has a region or two which has some desire of independence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe
forknknife
Banned
La sexta had great coverage with full representation from all parties but I'm really curious to see that TV3 debate. Do you have a link so I can watch tomorrow?
Yeah? I mean I'm not familiar with how things have gone in the past with similar attempts so just seeing headlines about this caught me off-guard.
Right, that's because nations are social and based on a mutually held feeling.
Okay, what's your point? Again I'm Irish. Should we, obviously meaning the counties of the south, still be part of the United Kingdom?
I'm for the referendum for the same reason I don't have a problem with Northern Ireland being part of the UK. Self-determination must be the basis of a modern state.
Anyway, you didn't response to my point there at all, which is why I have to restate the question here. This logic allows for somethings most people see as problematic.
Saying shut up and fall in line isn't going to be a good answer within current liberal democracy people.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Well it's also very suspect, so don't view it as accurate or as how this would have happened with a properly conducted referendum anyway. We'll never know.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Their strategy is to let Rajoy fix this and take the fall for it. So they won't do anything that removes Rajoy from power.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
There are a lot of non-Spanish in Spain. Spain shouldn't be a country either...
You realize how silly that sounds?
It's not almost exactly like Brexit, and I don't support either.
This is just reductionist nonsense.
Probably not, because this is the fundamental conservative understanding of nation-states. Which is to say most people believe that the current group of states is the correct one essentially because it is the current one that exists. People, including this Roman dude with a really big hat, parroting the same ideas were telling the Irish to fall in line in 1916.
What exists now is correct and just. Agree or we hit you. More importantly in this situation, it isn't even allowed to be questioned. Spain needed to let an actual referendum happen. Instead we get this farce. That's combined both nonsense and violence.
First of all I want to say I'm not Catalan or Spanish. But I want to say how appalled I am by the actions of the Spanish government. Their actions are right out oppressive and can be retraced to the actions of many extreme governments (I should know, I'm Romanian). I honestly can't think of any EU power that acted like this in recent history... violence against unarmed people (people in wheelchair, old people, women and men) who simply wanted to vote. I understand the complexity of the issue regarding the legality of the referendum or voting, but I can't find any excuse for the behavior shown by the Spanish government. I doubt this but I really hope sanctions will follow and also pressures for the current government to step down. If EU will let this slide it will become something representative and it's a troublesome outlook given the current state of the union.
On a more personal note, another thing made me really sad today. It's anecdotal and obviously not representative, but when I showed a video showing the violence displayed and asked a Spanish acquaintance what she thought of all this, she said "that's the problem and that's what people want to think ... but police is not the problem, they are the problem. And police is doing only what they have to do." When confronted she said "people weren't asked. A lot of people from Catalonia don't want to leave Spain" I said Of course and that I understand and that's why the vote should've been legalized, but then she answered with "and what about us? Cataluna is from Spain and I should also decide and say if I want it inside Spain". She continued with "for me at the moment, they are nazis. I was in Barcelona last month and I asked a woman for a picture. She didn't stop, she passed right by me smiling with a face of bad people, just because I'm Spanish and of course I asked in Spanish". I obviously realise this is a very limited view of the situation, but it's a sad one nonetheless.
I obviously don't think there is any legitimacy to the results of the referendum given the situation, but my personal opinion is that the current Spanish gov should step down, a new one should come to power that would also put forward a legal referendum for the Catalan people. Otherwise things will only get worse
On a more personal note, another thing made me really sad today. It's anecdotal and obviously not representative, but when I showed a video showing the violence displayed and asked a Spanish acquaintance what she thought of all this, she said "that's the problem and that's what people want to think ... but police is not the problem, they are the problem. And police is doing only what they have to do." When confronted she said "people weren't asked. A lot of people from Catalonia don't want to leave Spain" I said Of course and that I understand and that's why the vote should've been legalized, but then she answered with "and what about us? Cataluna is from Spain and I should also decide and say if I want it inside Spain". She continued with "for me at the moment, they are nazis. I was in Barcelona last month and I asked a woman for a picture. She didn't stop, she passed right by me smiling with a face of bad people, just because I'm Spanish and of course I asked in Spanish". I obviously realise this is a very limited view of the situation, but it's a sad one nonetheless.
I obviously don't think there is any legitimacy to the results of the referendum given the situation, but my personal opinion is that the current Spanish gov should step down, a new one should come to power that would also put forward a legal referendum for the Catalan people. Otherwise things will only get worse
Dreams-Visions
Member
It was both predictable and inevitable. Just look at the economics of this thing and you knew exactly what would happen.
The question now is what will happen next. I'm not seeing any obligation to accept any vote of this sort or imperative to recognize these requests. You don't just get to come and go from a country you've been part of for hundreds of years just because you're not happen in this brief window of time. Countries will have good times and struggles. Leaving during the hard times is a bitch move. There is 0% chance that Catalonia receives any meaningful international support to be recognized as an independent state.
I expect Spain and all its regions including Catalonia to figure it the fuck out and stop embarrassing itself.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
You are very obviously not Spanish.
If we go to an election, the current government would increase its majority. There's a reason socialists don't want an election and don't want the government to fall.
chromatic9
Member
You can't just grab the population of Catalonia.
US has ~325 million but ~220 million eligible so 30% less than the total pop.
UK 65 million and 46 million eligible, about 30% less than total pop.
UK's EU ref had a 70% turnout but 33 million actually if you just look arbitrarily at 65 million UK population, so this works out to around 25% for yes and no.
US recent election had 132 million voters with 61.8 and 63.5 for each candidate. About one 5th of the country voted for each candidate if you want use this logic to somehow dismiss the vote in Catalonia.
While it's a farce in Catalonia, it's quite a significant part of the population of a probable 5 million eligible? And is not far off typical vote numbers. Could be a 70/30 60/40 leave Spain in a real vote.
US has ~325 million but ~220 million eligible so 30% less than the total pop.
UK 65 million and 46 million eligible, about 30% less than total pop.
UK's EU ref had a 70% turnout but 33 million actually if you just look arbitrarily at 65 million UK population, so this works out to around 25% for yes and no.
US recent election had 132 million voters with 61.8 and 63.5 for each candidate. About one 5th of the country voted for each candidate if you want use this logic to somehow dismiss the vote in Catalonia.
While it's a farce in Catalonia, it's quite a significant part of the population of a probable 5 million eligible? And is not far off typical vote numbers. Could be a 70/30 60/40 leave Spain in a real vote.
You live in a state that exists because it violently separated from state it was a part of during the "hard times" of the imperial crisis and British diplomatic isolation. I can assure you the Catalonians of today have a far more developed sense of national self than the Americans of 1776.
RedSparrows
Member
Weren't anti independence parties boycotting the vote also?
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
The % you're seeing is of the electoral census, not the total population.
I have yet to see anyone in this thread posit a framework that gets around self-determination within democracy. I've seen real politik, but this isn't 19th century Germany. We generally think nations should operate based on the consent of the governed. Which is not to say that Catalonia should succeed. It's to say that arguing that Spain would be right to squash any chance for a legitimate referendum is nonsense.
who gives a shit
not every issue needs to be understood in terms of how it helps us stay stronger than Russia
As I mentioned in the beginning of my post I am very obviously not Spanish. (This is not a quip saying you haven't read my post... it's more to reiterate that yes, my knowledge about your political landscape is minimal)
But I can't agree with this being accepted and let it slide or considered a "strike one". Especially by the EU. It creates precedence
The referendum was illegal. Why should anyone who didn't want Catalonia to secede have gone and voted?
Russia, for one.
"Almost exactly like Brexit" is a hell of a stretch. It's like Brexit in that it is a referendum which would have an effect upon the EU and not much else. The Scottish Referendum is more similar.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
Theonik
Member
I know right we've been saying that about this stupid Yankee experiment for like 242 years now. It's time they grew up and understood there is only one home for them. Also they should pay 242 years of back taxes to the crown.
Tallshortman
Member
Yep, there's really no reason for anti-independence voters to vote in what is an illegal ballot according to the government they support. Of course this was going to be only secessionists voting which obviously makes the Catalan government announced results anything but definitive.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Well it's complicated, right? The extreme counterexample is something like the CSA seceding from the Union. From a strictly "consent of the governed" perspective the Northerners didn't have much of a right to reintegrate the south considering at the time of secession slavery was still legal and denying of franchise to slaves was similarly not considered unconstitutional. The argument is more about moral imperatives - that it was right to go to war to destroy that institution and most would agree the South didn't have a right to secede because basically they were doing it for bad reasons as opposed to good ones.
When evaluating movements we usually consider a balance of different factors - is there a "national identity"? Is the region or group being notably oppressed by the central government? Are there any secondary factors that might sway us? How badly do they want the independence, and how significant is the majority that want it? Consent of the governed is definitely the largest single factor we think about, but not really the only one.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Hey now, We are fine with a reunion of our two great nations , It is you who are scared our Yankeeness would rub of on you if we was ever rejoined /Sips Sweet Tea while enjoying a biscuit covered in gravy.
Constitutions aren't the God-given, undisputable pieces of heavenly wisdom Americans seem to think they are.
vonStirlitz
Unconfirmed Member
Strange times.
The EU seems to be coping with increasing fragmentation and federalisation at the same time. Countries that had global empires just a few hundred years ago are now insular or fragmenting and looking irrelevant. And countries that preach democracy clearly have a democracy crisis.
The EU seems to be coping with increasing fragmentation and federalisation at the same time. Countries that had global empires just a few hundred years ago are now insular or fragmenting and looking irrelevant. And countries that preach democracy clearly have a democracy crisis.
Theonik
Member
As long as you pay your 242 years worth of back taxes everything is OK.
Indeed. The Spanish one, for instance, can be reformed anytime. God had nothing to do with ours, we all came together after Franco kicked the bucket to draft something agreeable that wouldn't throw us back straight into civil war.
Care to explain why in a way that isn't totally reductionist? It's certainly at least got a much longer history to it. Scotland leaving the Union is clearly the better comparison, but even that's problematic because at least the Scottish state, which was hardly particularly democratic, voted for union.
Of course.
Right, and this is exactly why I've argued multiple times on this site that the conversation shouldn't be centered around the South being traitors but instead being slavers. The problem with the Confederacy wasn't that it left the state it was a part of, it was that it did so to defend slavery.
Of course the other difference is that there was no developed sense of self-determination being a good in itself for all people in the 19th century either, so the context is quite different.
Exactly, and I've said as much multiple times on this site.
Wait, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying that every state needs to have a national identity associated with it. I'm just saying that the people need to feel that they are represented in the state. I don't have a problem with Wales being part of the United Kingdom because most Welsh people are fine with it.
Self-determination doesn't mean every national identity has its own particular state, it means that people need to feel that their state is legitimate. That the nation feels like it's chosen the state in which sovereignty lies.
You're right that there are multiple factors, but they work together. Liberal Democracy sees states that aren't being run based on the consent of the governed as inherently problematic. There isn't a way around that, because that's part of what Liberal Democracy sees states as. Of course there is also absolutely nothing in this situation anywhere close to the level of moral importance an issue like American style slavery had.
My grandmother is Catholic and from Northern Ireland so I've spent much of my life thinking about the issue. My conclusion is that self-determination in matters of sovereignty is a necessary basis of nations, but that there are times where for moral reasons an outside force can usurp a sovereign. But usurping an occupied nation isn't the same thing as a legitimate state even if it's sometimes a good thing. The difference is the idea that we'd be okay with something being an end in itself statewise rather than a means to an end.
But arguing that Spain should just quash any and all opposition isn't addressing any of the complications we're talking about, and that's what I was calling out.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
If we get the NHS that might actually be a good deal lol. Hell we will even stock those "Digestives" yall seem to like so much.
ChainedMaster
Banned
Why would you doubt the number? It's similar to previous referundums and it's obvious anti-secessionists didn't vote.
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