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[Messofanego]

Yes, no one owes them anything, but especially for small teams like Playtonic or the Hat in Time team, I would appreciate a bit of carefulness, because I feel it is a bit unfair that games which have no big PR company behind them are treated this way if there is some input from a questionable person, whereas big company games like Dragon Quest are not met with such huge complaints. Small teams have a much harder time reacting on such requests and suffer all the more from heavy dicussions and attack associated with this. Please, look up what happened to Playtonic after they removed Jontron, certainly in parts due to the strong pressure from here. If the few precious days surrounding launch are dominated by such a discussion, it is supremely harmful to the team, potentially putting the whole project into a delicate position. So I would find it to be more respectful, if given the chance, to discuss such a topic outside of this important window, if it is possible.

Of course, anyone can discuss this at any time, if one wishes and I do not ask for this to be shut down now, but it is just a request to maybe keep in mind that if such a thing can be discussed way in advance, it would help small enthusiastic teams to deal with it without having their project being blown up by side-discussions.

First, the Dragon Quest composer thing is brought up a lot.

Second, "way in advance"? It's been 6 months. Plenty of advance time to discuss whether the dev wants to keep Jontron in the game or not.

Playtonic's game got hit with some negative reviews, but it didn't affect them too much. Just like Firewatch with Pewdiepie. Just because negative reviews happen due to manbabies, doesn't mean you should drop your morals.

Sitting a discussion about politics surrounding a game until after launch is just not going to be possible.

 

[WrenchNinja]

To be honest his original post was asking why this has been brought back to light 2 days before release. Most of the answers have been that this is worth discussing and "how dare you want to stop this conversation!" I'm still waiting for a reasonable answer to his question as well. Why OP brought this just before release? Why not during E3? Why not when Yooka-Laylee was released? I'm not saying that his views (JonTron) are right, but neoGAF is well known in this stance and knowing this it seems like OP wants to sabotage this game release.
We all want to live in a perfect world, hand holds and sing kumbayah, but gosh this is not how it works. They are releasing a game and are dealing with everything that happens at this time. I'm sorry to say it, but they need to focus on the game right now. The biggest proof that they care would be to release a functional and fun game, if they diverge time and people to deal with JonTron now that may affect the game launch quality and reviews. Again, what JonTron said is gross, I'm not protecting him. I'm saying that there is a time and a place for everything. Sadly the internet made people lose track of this and so they want everything right here and right now. Patience people, I'm sure the devs will speak about this AFTER the game is released.
If you still want an answer or a resolution right now I can't help but feel sorry for you, hope life treats you gently.

They had a chance deal with this since March. People have been waiting for them to say something for long enough. The OP brought it up now because more footage of the game is coming out now and the white surpemacist in question was featured very brazenly in said footage.

This woe is the developer argument is some disingenuous bullshit

 

[LiamR]

That's such a shame because I was looking forward to this. Plenty of other games coming out this month, though. Also, the amount of people defending JonTron in this thread and on Twitter is astonishing. Maybe take the time to actually sit through "that" video and you'll see what he says. He expresses clear white supremacist ideals, talking about foreigners polluting the gene pool and all that. He talks about how he believes black people are inherently more likely to commit crime due to their race and conspiracy theories about Mexicans trying to claim parts of the US for Mexico. It is some ludicrous shit.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Does the 'removing a voice actor from the game this late will cost the Dev greatly' really have merits or is it just hot air? I mean, YL did it, so surely it's not at all impossible?

 

[Alucrid]

Does the 'removing a voice actor from the game this late will cost the Dev greatly' really have merits or is it just hot air? I mean, YL did it, so surely it's not at all impossible?

i'm not sure how great, but i imagine it has some. the type of person to buy a game because it has jontron in it is probably the same type of person to not buy the game when he's removed. i guess the lesson to all indie developers is to not try and entice buyers with the VO of a popular youtuber because they'll probably be revealed as a horrible person part way into development.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

Does the 'removing a voice actor from the game this late will cost the Dev greatly' really have merits or is it just hot air? I mean, YL did it, so surely it's not at all impossible?

Depends what they want to do. Removing or editing an audio file is a simple job, with potentially a few hours or a couple days testing to make sure that it doesn't have a knock-on effect and introduce new bugs.

If they wanted to replace it with new audio that would take longer, as you'd need to do the recording/editing etc and then do the replacement and testing.

It's not a huge job, but no job should ever be considered insignificant, especially if you're close to a milestone or launch. The difficulty with which things can be changed will vary wildly from project to project.

Edit: Also there's marketing to consider if the VA in question was used in promotional material.

 

[BigDes]

Does the 'removing a voice actor from the game this late will cost the Dev greatly' really have merits or is it just hot air? I mean, YL did it, so surely it's not at all impossible?

Depends on the size of the role the VA has. Cutting say Peter Dinklage from Destiny and having his lines re-recorded by a new actor probably did cost Bungie a lot of money in the short term, even though it likely saved them more money going forward. However, I don't think jontron has a huge role in this game?

Quick fake edit here not saying that the Bungie thing is comparable in anything other than a voice actor being replaced.

 

[prudislav]

Nazi. Minor politics. Nazi. Minor politics.

What?

no idea about America , but here its view of tiny fraction of people everyone ignores thus minor .... and yeah i know how awfull it is , i lived in Sudetenland most of my childhood
... to be honest had to even google what alt-right means

This kind of goes all over the place. You call it a witch hunt but recognize he's a Nazi but also downplay it as minor politics?

witchunt is aimed at devs who at the time had no clue about that youtuber kido
the guy is a nazi sure .... but why should i care about views of a person who voices minor character in videogame ...because he is infamous youtububer i have never heard about before???
There is ton of people involved in development and i have no clue about political views of the important people that designed it , which are way more important than just some minor voicover guy???
Its a game about girl in a hat platforming in fantasy land .... why should i care about politics of a VO retard

Messofanego: not here to argue politics ... went to Gaf to talk about a game , not about political vievws of a person whose relation to the devteam is minor

 

[The Wizard]

As someone who has been following this game since it's steam greenlight pitch over 4 years ago it's a little sad to see it getting all this attention for all the wrong reasons now. I understand that people feel uncomfortable supporting a work which includes contributions from such a vile human being, but when that amounts to all of 2 lines he was probably paid for a long time ago in contrast to all the heart and soul poured into this game by Gears for Breakfast it just seems a little unfair.
Have the Devs responded at all? I'm sure removing his part would be fairly trivial and it would nice to be able to recommend this game without caveats.

 

[BigDes]

Are we still supposed to take posters claiming they have no idea who jontron is seriously or can we put them with the people who totally don't even know what this gameygate thing even is?

 

[Messofanego]

no idea about America , but here its view of tiny fraction of people everyone ignores thus minor
... to be honest had to even google what alt-right means

Don't say Nazis is minor politics in Europe. Don't you dare be talking about Europe. Especially with the rise of far right extremism, Nazi rallies, and far right parties taking hold in European countries.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Have the Devs responded at all? I'm sure removing his part would be fairly trivial and it would nice to be able to recommend this game without caveats.

Removing him is trivial. Dealing with the months of harassment (it still hasn't ended for yooka laylee) from the scum of the earth isn't.

I know its the right thing to do, but if I was in the hat in time developer position, I'd be struggling to decide what to do either. Potentially destroying your livelihood and years of work to remove a few lines from jontron isn't a trivial decision.

 

[Claude Augario]

no idea about America , but here its view of tiny fraction of people everyone ignores thus minor .... and yeah i know how awfull it is , i lived in Sudetenland most of my childhood
... to be honest had to even google what alt-right means


witchunt is aimed at devs who at the time had no clue about that youtuber kido
the guy is a nazi sure .... but why should i care about views of a person who voices minor character in videogame ...because he is infamous youtububer i have never heard about before???
There is ton of people involved in development and i have no clue about political views of the important people that designed it , which are way more important than just some minor voicover guy

If you don't care, why are you here?

What are you trying to accomplish?

 

[CaviarMeths]

no idea about America , but here its view of tiny fraction of people everyone ignores thus minor
... to be honest had to even google what alt-right means


witchunt is aimed at devs who at the time had no clue about that youtuber kido
the guy is a nazi sure .... but why should i care about views of a person who voices minor character in videogame ...because he is infamous youtububer i have never heard about before???
There is ton of people involved in development and i have no clue about political views of the important people that designed it , which are way more important than just some minor voicover guy

It takes an impressive level of head-in-sand to be completely oblivious to the recent pour of extreme right-wing ideologies, especially white supremacy and xenophobia, in western countries. Have you just like... not seen a news page in the last few years? This isn't something you can play coy with. Maybe you don't know who JonTron is, but I refuse to believe that there are people who are in no way aware of the current political climate. And no, it's not specifically an American problem.

 

[Theorymon]

To be honest his original post was asking why this has been brought back to light 2 days before release. Most of the answers have been that this is worth discussing and "how dare you want to stop this conversation!" I'm still waiting for a reasonable answer to his question as well. Why OP brought this just before release? Why not during E3? Why not when Yooka-Laylee was released? I'm not saying that his views (JonTron) are right, but neoGAF is well known in this stance and knowing this it seems like OP wants to sabotage this game release.
We all want to live in a perfect world, hand holds and sing kumbayah, but gosh this is not how it works. They are releasing a game and are dealing with everything that happens at this time. I'm sorry to say it, but they need to focus on the game right now. The biggest proof that they care would be to release a functional and fun game, if they diverge time and people to deal with JonTron now that may affect the game launch quality and reviews. Again, what JonTron said is gross, I'm not protecting him. I'm saying that there is a time and a place for everything. Sadly the internet made people lose track of this and so they want everything right here and right now. Patience people, I'm sure the devs will speak about this AFTER the game is released.
If you still want an answer or a resolution right now I can't help but feel sorry for you, hope life treats you gently.

Not to pick on you in particular, but I particularly always disliked the "not the right time" argument. I forgot to mention that in my big ass post in the last page, but I'll talk about it here since idk how many people want to read my wall of text lol.

Anyways, I fail to see why timing should have any affect on when dialogue should be started. In fact, since this is a niche indie game, I think the timing makes perfect sense: right before release is probably the most attention this game will ever get, so many more people will learn of Jontron's voice work in this game than any other time.

Assuming these arguments come from a good place, I can see that they seem to come with some sympathy in mind. Game development is hard, and being a small team dealing with a huge controversy right before release sounds like a nightmare!

However, I don't see how feeling bad for the devs and thinking they are doing a poor job of the situation have to be mutually exclusive. I mentioned in my last post a potential justification for small devs to stay silent (to avoid harassment), but I just noticed that there appears to be a Hat in Time twitter. Assuming it isn't heavily associated with real people on the team, I don't see why they can't use that account as a platform to address the situation.

I understand that game dev can be tough. It's possible that they can't afford to rerecord the voice work, or that maybe removing it without replacing it would break the game or something. Whatever the reason they can't (or won't) remove the voicework, just ignoring it is going to cause the problem to blow up even bigger. If the devs care about this, they should at least issue a statement. Even something as simple as "We care about diviersity in video gaming, and do not endore Jontron's bigoted statements" would be a huge improvement over the nothing we have right now!

To jump to a more real life reason I'm not a fan of this argument, let me use a great quote from Martin Luther King about the "moderate whites"

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

source:http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/060.html

I know that going from video game talk to civil rights quotes may seem a tad extreme (though considering what Jontron said, I think it makes sense!), this quote encapsulates my biggest problem with "not the right time argument": the statement is a self-fulfilling prophecy that needlessly stifles dialogue (or worse in Dr King's case: important progress!). While it takes time for things in society to turn for the better (and as an American, progress feels like a puddle in a desert currently, sadly), simply saying "now isn't the right time, let's wait till later" is a defeatist attitude. I don't think it matters if this discussion didn't get heated earlier or not, simply "waiting" for it to become "safer" to talk about accomplishes nothing but putting an elephant under a rug.

(Also, a bit off topic, but something that just sorta randomly came to mind: if the voice work being removed is a problem, well they did mention mods right? Maybe they could hold some kind of contest on twitter to decide who gets to replace Jontron's lines, and offer download files for it? Addressing the problem and asking the community for help might be neat, idk)

 

[rochellepaws]

I don't think it's a difficult thing to do at all, I think it's quite simple considering the Yooka Laylee team in a comparable situation have already created a precedent for how to respond to such a situation. I think they're sending quite a strong message by choosing to ignore this precedent and the defence of technical inconveniences doesn't really hold up when they've had 6 months to replace his small cameo role.
It's hard to infer anything else from their non-action other than they don't see Jon's views as problematic or in conflict with their own.

 

[The Wizard]

Removing him is trivial. Dealing with the months of harassment (it still hasn't ended for yooka laylee) from the scum of the earth isn't.

I know its the right thing to do, but if I was in the hat in time developer position, I'd be struggling to decide what to do either. Potentially destroying your livelihood and years of work to remove a few lines from jontron isn't a trivial decision.

That's a really good point and something I hadn't really considered. Strange to think that even just actually acknowledging this as an issue is more likely to galvanise the shitheads and subject yourself to endless harassment.

 

[Theorymon]

I don't think it's a difficult thing to do at all, I think it's quite simple considering the Yooka Laylee team in a comparable situation have already created a precedent for how to respond to such a situation. I think they're sending quite a strong message by choosing to ignore this precedent and the defence of technical inconveniences doesn't really hold up when they've had 6 months to replace his small cameo role.
It's hard to infer anything else from their non-action other than they don't see Jon's views as problematic or in conflict with their own.

Yeah to be clear, after reading about the mod support this game has, I doubt removing the lines would mess up the game somehow. It might be weird if an NPC doesn't have voicework, but I think its totally justifiable considering what Jontron has done. The only people who are likely to be upset are people who agree with Jontron's disgusting bigotry anyways. My only real worry is harassment in this case.

 

[Alucrid]

if anything they backed themselves into a corner at the worst time. yooka laylee had the misfortune of coming out just under a month from when jontron showed his ass so the iron was still hot. this game had over half a year buffer. i bet if they announced the same thing when playtonic did this shit would have blown over from the racist's rabbid fanbase by now.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Removing him is trivial. Dealing with the months of harassment (it still hasn't ended for yooka laylee) from the scum of the earth isn't.

I know its the right thing to do, but if I was in the hat in time developer position, I'd be struggling to decide what to do either. Potentially destroying your livelihood and years of work to remove a few lines from jontron isn't a trivial decision.

I've never, even once, heard a story about developers getting their livelihood destroyed by the folks that like to do harassment or acting racists. I am more inclined to believe that these groups have their swaying power greatly exaggerated by people who worry too much. In fact, 'doing the right thing' seems like a much smarter thing to do business-wise,especially during today's climate where there are strong push against racism and stuff like it practically everywhere.

 

[RamaTheVoice]

I've never, even once, heard a story about developers getting their livelihood destroyed by the folks that like to do harassment or acting racists. I am more inclined to believe that these groups have their swaying power greatly exaggerated by people who worry too much. In fact, 'doing the right thing' seems like a much smarter thing to do business-wise,especially during today's climate where there are strong push against racism and stuff like it practically everywhere.

Agreed. I am in the privileged position of having some disposable income to spend on what I feel is a good cause. I wasn't sure I was interested in the game, but I like 3D platformers and I for one am ready to throw some cash their way if they do the right thing and distance themselves from JonTron. Who knows, maybe enough people are in a position to do the same that the lost sales from removing him can be compensated.

 

[Theorymon]

I've never, even once, heard a story about developers getting their livelihood destroyed by the folks that like to do harassment or acting racists. I am more inclined to believe that these groups have their swaying power greatly exaggerated by people who worry too much. In fact, 'doing the right thing' seems like a much smarter thing to do business-wise,especially during today's climate where there are strong push against racism and stuff like it practically everywhere.

Admittedly, this might be one of my weaker arguments, as come to think of it, the only examples I can think of happened during Gamergate's prime. To be fair, considering how awful that shit show was, I guess seeing people's lives messed up over fucking video games has potentially made me more paranoid about that point that I need to be. Either way, this tactic of "pretending its not a problem" is probably the worst way they could have handled this outside of explicitly supporting Jontron's views!

if anything they backed themselves into a corner at the worst time. yooka laylee had the misfortune of coming out just under a month from when jontron showed his ass so the iron was still hot. this game had over half a year buffer. i bet if they announced the same thing when playtonic did this shit would have blown over from the racist's rabbid fanbase by now.

That's a good point, I actually totally forgot that Yooka-Laylee came out in April. Putting this off really did put them in a really bad spot.

 

[CaviarMeths]

I don't think we need to worry about the livelihood of the developers. This was a Kickstarter project. They got paid upfront.

 

[Falk]

I don't think we need to worry about the livelihood of the developers. This was a Kickstarter project. They got paid upfront.

Kickstarters often account for some percentage of a successfully funded game's total revenue.

Why even put the game up on storefronts otherwise?

 

[Wamb0wneD]

.

You're of course under no obligation to take my word for it; however, "now-former admin" is very specific and quite literally could not possibly refer to anybody else. GAF has many moderators but just a handful of admins, and only one admin has been demoted in recent years. Also, a demotion generally isn't followed with a ban as running afoul of moderation policy is not itself against the terms of service of the site.

Oh fuck Bish was the one doing that?! Damn.....

 

[RionaaM]

I wonder where all these clowns complaining about the timing of this thread have been during the last few months. Surely they realize people started talking about this a long time ago, right?

Are we still supposed to take posters claiming they have no idea who jontron is seriously or can we put them with the people who totally don't even know what this gameygate thing even is?

"I don't know who that person is nor what he said, but he's totally a good person and didn't mean anything bad. In fact, it was no big deal."

So transparent.

Removing him is trivial. Dealing with the months of harassment (it still hasn't ended for yooka laylee) from the scum of the earth isn't.

I know its the right thing to do, but if I was in the hat in time developer position, I'd be struggling to decide what to do either. Potentially destroying your livelihood and years of work to remove a few lines from jontron isn't a trivial decision.

Yeah, that's why I'm not going to condemn the devs for this. It's easy for me to say what they should do from the outside, but I can't really demand that they put themselves in the way of the harassment and death threats that are undoubtedly going to happen if they remove that asshole's voice clips.

This situation is a mess. Doing the right thing would mean they'll have to endure something horrible.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

no idea about America , but here its view of tiny fraction of people everyone ignores thus minor .... and yeah i know how awfull it is , i lived in Sudetenland most of my childhood
... to be honest had to even google what alt-right means


witchunt is aimed at devs who at the time had no clue about that youtuber kido
the guy is a nazi sure .... but why should i care about views of a person who voices minor character in videogame ...because he is infamous youtububer i have never heard about before???
There is ton of people involved in development and i have no clue about political views of the important people that designed it , which are way more important than just some minor voicover guy???
Its a game about girl in a hat platforming in fantasy land .... why should i care about politics of a VO retard

Messofanego: not here to argue politics ... went to Gaf to talk about a game , not about political vievws of a person whose relation to the devteam is minor

So, why are you posting in this thread?

 

[psychowave]

I don't get the idea that if we can't manage to cut every single bad person out from our lives then we shouldn't even try. It's impossible to be perfect. Cutting some shitty people out is better than not trying at all.

Spoiler

Of course the people who use this argument know this already and they just say that to try to ease their own guilt

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

I’ve successfully avoided a number of games I would have bought otherwise due to the people involved.

I’ll throw this one on the list. Too bad. But plenty of other games to play before I get desperate enough to support this mess.

 

[Nosgotham]

if we are all ok using electronics that are made by foxcon using components farmed under the most inhumane conditions, i think its ok to play this game.

 

[CannonFodder52]

if anything they backed themselves into a corner at the worst time. yooka laylee had the misfortune of coming out just under a month from when jontron showed his ass so the iron was still hot. this game had over half a year buffer. i bet if they announced the same thing when playtonic did this shit would have blown over from the racist's rabbid fanbase by now.

I don't think it's a difficult thing to do at all, I think it's quite simple considering the Yooka Laylee team in a comparable situation have already created a precedent for how to respond to such a situation. I think they're sending quite a strong message by choosing to ignore this precedent and the defence of technical inconveniences doesn't really hold up when they've had 6 months to replace his small cameo role.
It's hard to infer anything else from their non-action other than they don't see Jon's views as problematic or in conflict with their own.

All they had to do was follow suit and announce their removal along side Playtonic. They would have received far less spite than Yooka did, plus they would have taken some pressure off of their fellow developer at launch. Racists would have seen that Yooka-Laylee is not some rabid "SJW" outlier, but that the gaming in general ins't going to support people like Jon. Instead, racists got an easy way out, they got another 3D platformer a few months later with their favorite white nationalist bundled in. I actually heard a ton of idiots, six months ago saying, guess I'm buying a Hat in Time instead of Yooka-Laylee now. It's gross, but they're getting transferred sales from disgruntled racists.

if we are all ok using electronics that are made by foxcon using components farmed under the most inhumane conditions, i think its ok to play this game.

This has been discussed at length in this thread. It's impossible to live your life only consuming ideal products and media, the answer to this is not to condemn anyone who wants to see any positive change. People can and should make the best choices for themselves.

So far we have seen this argument with, rap, DQ, Kingdom Hearts, meat and now iphones.

 

[prudislav]

So, why are you posting in this thread?

because to me it seems ridiculous to stay away from a game because of ingame peguing who has 3 lines of dialog is bad person in RL (there could be even more and worse person involved in actuall develepment of the project but because youtubing is cool and they are basically unknown them its all fine) ... if it was dev or someone who actually influences the design OK , but someone so unimportant to the end product ?

i guess i just dont get it , but you are right i am out

 

[RRockman]

because to me it seems ridiculous to stay away from a game because of ingame peguing who has 3 lines of dialog is bad person in RL (there could be even more and worse person involved in actuall develepment of the project but because youtubing is cool and they are basically unknown them its all fine) ... if it was dev or someone who actually influences the design OK , but someone so unimportant to the end product ?

i guess i just dont get it , but you are right i am out

We just had a conversation about this very topic like 3 pages ago. Were you even reading the thread?

 

[Durante]

Yeah we better continue to condone the racists in case the alt-right assholes sabotage something. We have no choice!

It looks like a simple issue when you are just posting about it on a forum, but I can certainly appreciate how it is less simple when your livelihood and work of many years potentially rests on the decision.

 

[CannonFodder52]

because to me it seems ridiculous to stay away from a game because of ingame peguing who has 3 lines of dialog is bad person in RL (there could be even more and worse person involved in actuall develepment of the project but because youtubing is cool and they are basically unknown them its all fine) ... if it was dev or someone who actually influences the design OK , but someone so unimportant to the end product ?

i guess i just dont get it , but you are right i am out

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think many would be more forgiving if it was a random programmer that turned out to be racist. It's pretty much impossible to remove their portion of the work, plus they were hired solely to be a coder.

Jontron is celebrity endorsement, hiring him is attaching his brand to the face of your game.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

if we are all ok using electronics that are made by foxcon using components farmed under the most inhumane conditions, i think its ok to play this game.

It's easier to live without Hat in Time than it is to live without a phone

 

[Interfectum]

if we are all ok using electronics that are made by foxcon using components farmed under the most inhumane conditions, i think its ok to play this game.

"This other thing here is bad too, so this bad thing we are talking about is now okay."

 

[peakish]

because to me it seems ridiculous to stay away from a game because of ingame peguing who has 3 lines of dialog is bad person in RL ... if it was dev OK , but someone so unimportant to the end product ... why?
welp i am out

I personally don't think a few lines are enough to ruin a game, although I don't blame anyone else for thinking it. What does annoy me a lot is to see someone like Jon go public with spewing racial biology crap and then just truck on as if nothing happened. Sure, a few threads here and there bring it up but he still has a large following and still gets to be in games (credit to Playtonic for taking the bull by its horns right away, though!). I mean, it's just a few lines here and there, it's not that important ... or is it?

---

I don't envy the developers for being put in this spot, but someone will always be caught in crossfire in situations like this. And has been pointed out, they just like Playtonic had the choice to confront this six months ago instead of a few days before release.


I'll add that I say this having little interest in the game in the first place (although it looks cute), so I don't have any real impact on what's happening. That brings me close to concern posting/trolling. Just wanted to address the part of this discussion that I care about.

 

[Poltergust]

You're of course under no obligation to take my word for it; however, "now-former admin" is very specific and quite literally could not possibly refer to anybody else. GAF has many moderators but just a handful of admins, and only one admin has been demoted in recent years. Also, a demotion generally isn't followed with a ban as running afoul of moderation policy is not itself against the terms of service of the site.

Huh, I always thought he quit that position voluntarily.

Sorry for this slight derailment. It was a bad attempt at a joke on my part.

 

[Keikaku]

because to me it seems ridiculous to stay away from a game because of ingame peguing who has 3 lines of dialog is bad person in RL (there could be even more and worse person involved in actuall develepment of the project but because youtubing is cool and they are basically unknown them its all fine) ... if it was dev or someone who actually influences the design OK , but someone so unimportant to the end product ?

i guess i just dont get it , but you are right i am out

Don't be obtuse. That's not the argument here and you know it.

Of course it's possible that there were worse people involved in the development of the game. Hell, here's a link from just the first couple of pages of this thread that showed that one of the main devs for the game set up a hate/doxxing website against someone he had a personal beef with. Real classy. So, yeah, there is at least one other person of dubious moral character involved in the development of this game.

Yes, it's only a few lines but that doesn't make it any better. If anything, it's worse that they couldn't find the time to strip out "a few" lines of dialogue from their game, especially given the completely incendiary and outrageously racist views of the person voicing those lines. I've worked in indie studios before and, while time is limited, something like this would not have been a hard ask. And yet they chose not to do it.

As a non-white person, I absolutely care about the content of my games and all optional media that I consume. I don't have to purchase games; they're not essential to my survival or continued existence (unlike, for example, having a phone that's made by Foxconn so I can handle basic elements of my job). Because of that, I absolutely do discriminate against games where the creators make dubious moral choices to work with individuals with odious personal view. It's the reason I've only ever purchased Kingdom Hearts and Dragon Quest games either used or from 3rd party sellers where Square Enix will never see a dime of what I payed for the game.

If I'm going to indulge in a hobby like gaming, I'd like to do it in such a way where I don't directly fund people who either spout racist views or those developers who are willing to tolerate their views.

Maybe that's too much work for you and that's your choice to make. What isn't cool is acting like you have no idea why it's a big deal to some people that situations like this arise and aren't dealt with or addressed appropriately by devs.

 

[Redrable]

JonTron is an awful individual. While the game doesn't interest me much at the moment, at least now I can put it on Steam "not interested" list to ensure that I never accidentally pick it up.

 

[Lonely1]

I have this game preordered at Humble. I would probably double-dip for a switch version. But having Johntron involved in this makes me very uncomfortable. After all, he's a guy that believes I'm inferior because the color of my skin and I don't want to give him a money or a platform.

 

[Narroo]

Depends what they want to do. Removing or editing an audio file is a simple job, with potentially a few hours or a couple days testing to make sure that it doesn't have a knock-on effect and introduce new bugs.

If they wanted to replace it with new audio that would take longer, as you'd need to do the recording/editing etc and then do the replacement and testing.

It's not a huge job, but no job should ever be considered insignificant, especially if you're close to a milestone or launch. The difficulty with which things can be changed will vary wildly from project to project.

Edit: Also there's marketing to consider if the VA in question was used in promotional material.

Also, there's possibly contractual issues as well. It's possible they signed a contract that makes it difficult to remove him from the game.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

if we are all ok using electronics that are made by foxcon using components farmed under the most inhumane conditions, i think its ok to play this game.

There is no such thing as completely ethical consumption, in our current society.

That is no reason to not define some boundaries for yourself. Nonessential entertainment products are a good place to start.

We are all hypocrites in some capacity, but that does not make anyone’s point less valid.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

because to me it seems ridiculous to stay away from a game because of ingame peguing who has 3 lines of dialog is bad person in RL (there could be even more and worse person involved in actuall develepment of the project but because youtubing is cool and they are basically unknown them its all fine) ... if it was dev or someone who actually influences the design OK , but someone so unimportant to the end product ?

i guess i just dont get it , but you are right i am out

Read the thread then, it's been explained a few times. Or don't if you don't care, but like why thread whine about it if you don't care? Plenty of other threads.

 

[AmaterasuOkami076]

This seems like an immensely petty thing to personally hold against a developer

they had no control over him revealing himself to be a moron, and if his role is extensive, removing him will be even harder and more expensive to deal with

Removing him would be great, but I feel like most of us here should know how time, money, and resources work enough to not shit on the developer for leaving it alone.


.....but it's always easy to know the right choice when you personally have nothing on the line

This is pretty much where I stand. By all means stop him from working in this field going forward for outing himself as a racist, but I won't hold it against the developer for leaving his voice in when none of us here have any idea of their resource/time/money situation.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Why in god's name is he still in the game? I mean, for fuck's sake, he's not even a good VA! You could cut him for no better reason than he sounds like shit, even he wasn't also a Nazi.

edit: Although, being a Nazi is reason enough to cut him. From everything, ever.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

To be honest his original post was asking why this has been brought back to light 2 days before release. Most of the answers have been that this is worth discussing and "how dare you want to stop this conversation!" I'm still waiting for a reasonable answer to his question as well. Why OP brought this just before release?

Because there is no fucking limit on when we can have a discussion on an issue. What kind of deflective non sense is this?

Why not during E3? Why not when Yooka-Laylee was released? I'm not saying that his views (JonTron) are right, but neoGAF is well known in this stance and knowing this it seems like OP wants to sabotage this game release.

Who cares? The games release is not any of our problems. They are responsible for the marketing and PR of their game and we can talk in length about shit they are doing or not doing whenever we want. They aren't entitled to anything.

We all want to live in a perfect world, hand holds and sing kumbayah, but gosh this is not how it works. They are releasing a game and are dealing with everything that happens at this time. I'm sorry to say it, but they need to focus on the game right now. The biggest proof that they care would be to release a functional and fun game, if they diverge time and people to deal with JonTron now that may affect the game launch quality and reviews.

And hey, if they don't they get a neogaf thread making people aware that racists working on their game sharing bile is cool. Decisions decisions. They made theres. We are not obliged to care.

Again, what JonTron said is gross, I'm not protecting him. I'm saying that there is a time and a place for everything.

That sounds like defense to me.

Sadly the internet made people lose track of this and so they want everything right here and right now. Patience people, I'm sure the devs will speak about this AFTER the game is released.

And what if they don't? What will you do to satisfy the people who wanted to talk about it but you said no? Oh right nothing.

If you still want an answer or a resolution right now I can't help but feel sorry for you, hope life treats you gently.

You're the one in a thread telling people to stop talking about an issue. No one cares that you think we should wait. There is 0 reason to.

 

[JaseC]

Just a quick comment to anyone who has answered to my last few postings or anyone who may do this in the future: I take duckroll's posting as a clear indicator it is strongly advised not to post anything in this thread anymore, so if I do not answer your postings, it is not out of disrespect. If someone wants to have an answer to or an explanation of something I have posted here, please contact me via PM, so I can give it to you without interfering with others.

You're taking it a little too personally. All he's advising against is continuing to argue that this topic has its time and place and this particular thread represents neither. As he alluded to earlier, the decision of whether a thread is appropriate is one for moderators to make, and questioning the merit of a thread in-thread is thread-whining at best and thread-shitting at worst, which is why you've been cautioned.

 

[FinalAres]

There is no such thing as completely ethical consumption, in our current society.

That is no reason to not define some boundaries for yourself. Nonessential entertainment products are a good place to start.

We are all hypocrites in some capacity, but that does not make anyone’s point less valid.

This makes sense. And as a result no one should be judging anyone else for where they place their own personal barriers.

Having skimmed this thread I assume there's a little of this going on from both sides? Or is it mostly people being criticised just for saying they're avoiding this game?