He said he has had more fun with Fez. That's perfectly valid. I haven't had this much fun with a game from anywhere since the first Super Mario Galaxy. It's a game so good I don't share details with others whom I want to play the game. Not because I don't want to ruin the narrative, which is an incredible abstraction, but because it's so mechanically inventive I want them to be as surprised and delighted as I was.
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Fez's dev to japanese developers: "your games just suck"
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He said he has had more fun with Fez. That's perfectly valid. I haven't had this much fun with a game from anywhere since the first Super Mario Galaxy. It's a game so good I don't share details with others whom I want to play the game. Not because I don't want to ruin the narrative, which is an incredible abstraction, but because it's so mechanically inventive I want them to be as surprised and delighted as I was.
Exactly. Given that all the criticism of "Japanese games" comes from the opening minutes of Zelda I find it hard to believe they are spending a lot of time with a lot of different Japanese games.
If someone said that CGI was ruining film but could only cite the opening scene of Transformers 2 you would probably quickly suspect that they were sort of clueless and just talking out their ass.
The criticisms of Japanese games by Blow and Fish don't come of as at all informed.
Finaika
Member
Street Fighter X Tekken
Dog Problems
Banned
In response to how many great games have come from Japan this year (can't find the post to quote), I've really enjoyed:
Binary Domain
Tales of Graces f
And the two games Cave released on iOS
Binary Domain
Tales of Graces f
And the two games Cave released on iOS
Lol at Solidsnake telling people that its ok to miss this game because there are plenty of great games available. I'm pretty sure nothing of the kind was said at the launch of Journey( a game I also enjoyed). Some of you people on this forum are so transparent its not even funny anymore. At this point in time you know exactly what side of the fence certain posters sit on and its hilarious to see them try and act like non biased individuals. There is never enough great games and telling somebody else that there is just because a certain game is not on their platform of choice is just downright foolish.
IrishNinja
Member
as opposed to...? what metric were we talking about prior, technical aspects? sales-age? anytime anyone talks about gaming in general, they're talking about fun.
again though, your details do sound pretty good. that's a bit of what i recall when i played Braid at launch. and of course it's valid to enjoy a game, but it's still equally ridiculous to play some x > y game with titles you haven't played, just as you're (rightfully) doing pointing out folks doing the same thing here with Fez.
Tales of Graces is a pretty good game but I don't know if it counts. It's a port of a game released in 2009.
Dog Problems
Banned
Oh, good point.
The Cave games are ports of older arcade games, too, while we're at it!
I've enjoyed Kid Icarus: Uprising, Armored Core V, Street Fighter X Tekken, Binary Domain, Lumines - Electronic Symphony, Shinobido 2, Super Mario 3D Land, and Soul Calibur V in the past three months. There's probably some games I haven't gotten around to , either, as I've played a good chunk of older releases since the start of the year.
I wouldn't call each and every one of those "great", of course, but I use that term pretty sparingly compared to most. They are all, at the very least, pretty good.
And DoDonPachi Saidaioujou is supposed to come out around this month. Really, what chance does any other game have?
I've enjoyed Kid Icarus: Uprising, Armored Core V, Street Fighter X Tekken, Binary Domain, Lumines - Electronic Symphony, Shinobido 2, Super Mario 3D Land, and Soul Calibur V in the past three months. There's probably some games I haven't gotten around to , either, as I've played a good chunk of older releases since the start of the year.
I wouldn't call each and every one of those "great", of course, but I use that term pretty sparingly compared to most. They are all, at the very least, pretty good.
And DoDonPachi Saidaioujou is supposed to come out around this month. Really, what chance does any other game have?
Fez isn't a great game. It's only a "puzzle" game in very few, mostly optional spots. Some of the animations are very slow, and the game chooses to prioritize them (much like what Japanese games are criticized for) over the action you're doing such as climbing, pushing, entering doors, and picking up objects. I've been describing this game to people as "mentally passive". Which in all honestly is probably me saying very politely that it's boring. I enjoyed the game more when I had a podcast on because my brain was able to be occupied with something. I came into Fez expecting a platformer equivalent of a rubix cube. What I got was another one of those indie games where you walk around and collect stuff, but it now has a perspective gimmick.
It does look nice (despite pixel-art being driven into the ground), and sound really nice! And some of those "anti-cube" puzzles are if anything clever in a meta-sense. But someone who says that Fez is the next Metroid would probably also think someone jingling keys in front of their face is the next Citizen Kane.
It does look nice (despite pixel-art being driven into the ground), and sound really nice! And some of those "anti-cube" puzzles are if anything clever in a meta-sense. But someone who says that Fez is the next Metroid would probably also think someone jingling keys in front of their face is the next Citizen Kane.
Finaika
Member
That's because the Japanese have honor.
Dog Problems
Banned
lol Damnit, it didn't even occur to me and that should be more obvious than the Tales of Graces f port.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
It's a problem in gaming recently where local stuff are favored over foreign (i.e. Japanese) ones despite the fact that games in the West suffer from the same criticisms they give to Japanese games. Makes me wonder what spurned that moment - XBox?
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
Dude this games hype cycle has been churning for YEARS.
I agree with him, regardless of why he said it.
There are more than enough great games out there for the major platforms. Even if you choose to skip some of them for whatever reason, you won't suffer for it.
This weird, OCD-ish attitude that you must buy every game you think may be good is really widespread amongst gamers for some reason. It's why we see people accumulating these ginormous backlogs they never make a dent in.
I've never really agreed with this line of thought, that you can't really have an opinion on a game unless you've played X amount of it (I'm going to ignore the part about X being the whole damn game for a second).
I played through the Fez trial, but didn't feel compelled to buy it from that. Now, the trial only gave me ~20 minutes of play time sure, but the idea of a trial is to make me want to play it past that point. If I don't feel like purchasing the game after that, then it's due to one of two scenarios. Either the game itself is just not for me (which is pretty common, even amongst some of the best received games), or the game should have been for me, and the trial has done a bad job of showing me that.
What wouldn't make any sense for me, would be to decide that I wasn't really having a load of fun playing the trial, but I should now pay to unlock the full game so that I can verify for certain that I don't actually like it much. I have a rather large stack of already purchased games backlogged, along with a decent number of games that I would like to try just because they look like they will appeal to me (Fez was in this group prior), and a few games that no matter how old they get I seem to be completely incapable of not returning to (i.e. Daytona USA). Any additional time and money given to Fez would be at the direct expense of these other games.
Do you complete every game you ever play? If not, would you say that you don't know enough about the ones that you stopped playing to have a decent sense of why you stopped playing them?
For me, I'm playing games purely for entertainment. Every minute I spend playing a game whilst not being entertained is a minute that the game is doing something wrong. I'm not trying to earn my fun here. This does not mean every game has to be an arcade game by design however. As a recent example I played the trial for Gray Matter last night, and whilst the game's pacing was rather slow and over an hour later when the trial had ended I still can't really predict how the full game will turn out, the important thing was that at no point during that time did I feel like I didn't currently want to be playing it. That includes the first 20 minutes. When the trial was up, I wanted to be able to play the next hour, and so it's a game that I will purchase. Pretty simple.
If every time I didn't like something I continued playing it I would not be trying out a large number of games that currently have more potential for enjoyment. Doesn't sound like a worthwhile gamble to me. I have tried this a few times (e.g the first Uncharted), and funnily enough the first 20 minutes had usually told me everything I need to know.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Well, if you want to include last year's, there's a few too such as Catherine, Dark Souls, and Sonic Generations.
I dunno but I always appreciate what Japanese games do over their Western counterparts is that they make their games polished and unbuggy. The only Western games that I've played that were actually polished are Uncharted and Valve games.
I agree with Solidsnakex, you don't need to buy every good game. I didn't buy Journey, I didn't buy Mass Effect, I didn't buy Skyrim, I didn't buy Dark Souls. The first one I'm not fully hyped for it but will plan on buying it when there's a sale. The latter ones aren't my favorite kinds of genre nor do they interest me (I've tried them out).
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Zeitgeist. It's zeitgeist until the winds of fortune blow in a different direction, then they'll be the ones on the backfoot.
Actually, I've heard the "arrogant" comments from other Japanese devs. I think one of them was Kojima, and maybe another one.
Yeah that's pretty bullshit. Personally I think Japanese game have handled tutorials way better than most western games these days. Modern Zelda is definitely handholdy in the first few hours, but that's not any worse than most western console games I've been playing.
And where the hell did they judge modern Zelda just from 20 minutes?
I'm actually kind of shocked to realize that half of my PS3 library is Japanese. Though I think the reason for that is because I've bought so many western games this gen on PC instead of console.
On the flip-side, about a quarter of all my last gen games (PS2 and GCN combined) are western-developed.
Umm...Skyward Sword was extremely handholdy and obtrusive. Fi gave away one of the solutions to a puzzle. And she wouldn't shut up. Fez is not hand-holdy it all; it has its own language you have to decode for Christ's sake.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
...which doesn't really negate what he said at all, since that handholdiness in the early part of the game is pretty much found in "AAA titles" like in Mass Effect and Skyrim.
Makes me wonder when the change will occur again though. Does it have something to do with stuff like economy crash and other social impacting events?
wolfmat
Confirmed Asshole
Well, this isn't the review thread, obviously, but while we're at it, me, from the outside looking in, I think it would've done the game some good if they focused on what a platformer is good at: Jumping puzzles. And iterated on that. This is what people on the internet seem to not appreciate in the game for the most part.
They clearly also wanted to do more with it than is expected of games in the genre. Like with the language stuff. I don't think it fits the genre as much as actually demanding skill from the player in terms of figuring out where to jump when and shit. So it's at the very least a surprising choice. Interesting, also.
With the mindfuck kind of puzzle, I'm more of the Myst variety myself, meaning I don't want to jump around to get to a puzzle or whatever.
Also, the start of the game is extremely boring. That's a clear misdirection.
Edit: It still looks pretty incredible, and has neat music.
They clearly also wanted to do more with it than is expected of games in the genre. Like with the language stuff. I don't think it fits the genre as much as actually demanding skill from the player in terms of figuring out where to jump when and shit. So it's at the very least a surprising choice. Interesting, also.
With the mindfuck kind of puzzle, I'm more of the Myst variety myself, meaning I don't want to jump around to get to a puzzle or whatever.
Also, the start of the game is extremely boring. That's a clear misdirection.
Edit: It still looks pretty incredible, and has neat music.
Not to say that Western games aren't intrusive (hell yes they are), but specifically citing Zelda is an extreme case of a game that doesn't really support his statement very well.
This. Well, I think in general we may have more of an absurd sense of "AMERICA IS BEST", but in this case Japanese development was flat footed in transitioning to HD, and that's what's popular. Personally, I felt similarly BUT in the last few years I've been moving back to being more positive about Japanese games than Western games, too much "me too" design and all indication is that the current path is a fast track to crashing the industry. Hell, in hindsight it may even be that most Japanese development realized that the cost to remain competitive in the HD space internationally is INSANE, and rather than take THQ's approach of trying anyway they ran to handhelds or lower key efforts.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I dunno, it's as "intrusive" as Skyrim or Mass Effect from my experience.
But then their competition in "handheld" are 99 cent games it seems.
Does someone pop up to stop you and explain everything to you, even obvious crap, in those games? Not that I recall, at worst it's windows that pop up while playing, and I think that is a key difference between whether or not it's overbearing, I'm actively STOPPED in Zelda games to be told how to play, whereas in those I usually just have extra information I can either quickly read while playing or outright ignore.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I agree with you about Zelda. I think it has nothing to do with "Japanese games", but modern Zelda has problems.
The handholding turns off gaming vetrans, that much is obvious...
...but I would assert that it turns off newbies just as much! Nintendo seems to want to do this to make the game "accessable" to casual players, by telling you how to do everything. But I am damn sure about human nature: no one wants their first foray into a game to be a series of chores where you are told what to do! It's not fun! If I were a kid today, I'd probably hate Zelda, to be honest.
Zelda 1 was successful because it starts off and gives you no chores or handholding. "Go do whatever you want". Experiment. Find your own fun. Discover the dungeons by yourself. This is what newbies will like. This is what experts will like. You should make the goals clear, but it should start you off with gameplay freedom. Tutorial sequences should be "opt in"... not mandatory 5 hour training.
ME2 definitely does this. The opening of the game (after the intro-sequence / title card) is a big boring tutorial in which a voice on speakerphone tells you exactly what to do.
That only Japanese games have annoying tutorials is just not a winnable argument, especially when the argument literally amounts to nothing beyond "but but Zelda!"
PataHikari
Banned
Hes released one game that looks like a rip off of a Japanese game and is a hypocritical Dick.
Why should I give him money?
.... So do all sprite based games look Japanese now or somethin?
Glass Rebel
Member
Not to diminish his work but when I see Fez my mind instantly jumps to Cave Story. Mind you, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing but it is kinda ironic.
You're stickin it to the man.
This is my problem with the thread. Okay, if you don't want to buy it, fine. But we have a 31 (that's nearly 3100 posts for those playing at home) page thread here because people feel the need to post this as if it puts them on some moral high ground. The saddest part is that it detracts from what is a genuinely fun and refreshing game and experience.
AHappyPanda
Member
This. I wanted to at least try the demo, but after watching the Quicklook on GB...doesn't seem that interesting? IDK, not sure what I was expecting.
mariosbrother
Member
Maybe it would be beneficial to add the ability to bat Navi off into the great yonder with a deku stick...
"yep, had enough of you" ((wham))
Glass Rebel
Member
No, it doesn't. There's a thread about the game where people are free to discuss the game and ask questions. This thread is about Phil and his stupid comment.
For the record: I think he was incredibly rude and ignorant but depending on the price and Polytron's willingness to port it to PC I'll still buy it. Doesn't mean that people who don't buy it because he was a dick are in the wrong.
You're free to ignore this thread. Just sayin.
WrenchNinja
Member
As opposed to people feeling the need to counter post going day 1, day negative number, will buy two copies to make up for you not buying it, etc. There's no moral high ground, if people don't want to support the guy, they don't have to and they should be allowed to say why. There's nothing stopping anyone who isn't bothered by what he said to just buy the game and have fun and say that that its a pretty great game.
This is so true. It's the same situation that happened with Shadow Complex. Except in that case it was "hate the author" not "hate the designer/artist".
THIS is what I always think about when I hear Navi complaints, lol.
He brought it on himself, though. As adults, we are accountable for our actions. As a person attached to an upcoming product, he should be doubly careful about doing anything that might shine a bad light on himself, his product, or those who work with him.
Having gotten to try FEZ, I really like the graphics, and the sound and personality are really cool. I don't really get FAR in puzzle/platformers, though, so that's one strike aganist it.
The other is still how rude he was in his JP games comment. That Inafune comment at the top of the page says everything he said, but with some decency. It's odd to play FEZ, and then think it's the brainchild of someone like that.
The game will unlimately speak for itself, and it'll be available for purchase much longer than the rage for this comment will exist. I wonder if all the first-hand hard work he put into the game, which is now met with notice of so many bugs and frame-rate issues, has humbled him any? Would be nice, anyway! Even if only a small bit.
i just spit all over my screen lmao
Not playing, but have been following to see if it lives up to the hype; it seems as if the hardest puzzle in the game is literally a 'fuck you' to the players. Right now it's only been solved by people on the dev team and it looks as if people not in the know are going to have to brute force solve it by trying all the possible button press combos. There have also been statements made either to individuals or on Twitter by polytron that there aren't any big in-game clues on how to solve it.
This could all be misdirection and prolonging the mystery and it'll drop in to place for players really soon now, but if indeed it is a 'brute-force only you'll never solve it, only my buddies know the thought process needed' then isn't that exactly in character for the dude?
This could all be misdirection and prolonging the mystery and it'll drop in to place for players really soon now, but if indeed it is a 'brute-force only you'll never solve it, only my buddies know the thought process needed' then isn't that exactly in character for the dude?
IrishNinja
Member
haha, that can't be much worse than that achievement no one got for braid, can it? and that challenge of waiting for a cloud to move for hours and hours, back when xbox's were dying so much...still, if it's extra stuff anyway, i'm alright with that.
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