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[WJD]

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For example in last seasons Champions League: Man United got to final playing pretty good football; not the most attractive ever produced but it was certainly easy on the eye and was (Marseille away excluded) pretty attacking.

However, for the final against Barca (a technically superior team) I'd have had no problems seeing my team pack the midfield, bunker down and try and hit them on the break. Of course that didn't happen and Fergie went to attack them with a 4-4-2 and we lost miserably.

 

[Wilbur]

Meus, you're so off target it's unreal. Whoever wins deserves it, unless they've cheated, bribed refs, dived to get someone crucially sent off or for a pen etc, but the way Chelsea did it means they're as worthy as anyone. Certainly not the best team in Europe, but the most deserving this year. And Drogba/Lampard/Cole/Cech and even Terry should have had one by now, this was a wonderful Chelsea team.

May I also say how brilliant Mikel was last night, apart from all the usual suspects?

 

[WJD]

May I also say how brilliant Mikel was last night, apart from all the usual suspects?

Yep, I didn't know he was capable of that kind of performance.

 

[rvy]

Best runner-up of all time.

lol, Juve, Benfica and Bayern share the same amount.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Meus, you're so off target it's unreal. Whoever wins deserves it, unless they've cheated, bribed refs, dived to get someone crucially sent off or for a pen etc, but the way Chelsea did it means they're as worthy as anyone. Certainly not the best team in Europe, but the most deserving this year. And Drogba/Lampard/Cole/Cech and even Terry should have had one by now, this was a wonderful Chelsea team.

May I also say how brilliant Mikel was last night, apart from all the usual suspects?

By saying e.g. Bayern deserved the trophy, that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the effort put in by the Chelsea players and the excellent defensive performances - especially by Cole and Luiz last night. A couple of weeks ago someone described the sport as being result driven, specifically he argued; it's all about putting the ball into the net. Ignore brilliant passing and flair for a moment, Bayern were the better team throughout the night in terms of chances created and forward play. Chelsea, whether or not they were trying to play on the break, couldn't muster much and rarely if ever threatened. Whilst they improved in the first half of ET, Bayern still created more chances. The fact that Chelsea created so little could also be put down to Bayern's tactics.

So by what measure are we defining 'deserved'? In what aspect were Chelsea better than Bayern last night? Unless, of course, we're including a penalty shootout into the equation. You're completely delusional if you honestly believe Chelsea deserved it on that performance. Your claim that winning = deserved, regardless of performance, is ridiculous. How many times have we seen teams dominate games only to lose?

This isn't even about style of play. This debate is entirely something else. I understand opinions, particularly about sport, is subjective but this isn't a matter of opinion: in this case anyone who subscribes to the position that Chelsea are deserved Champions are absolutely, unequivocally and depressingly wrong.

 

[WJD]

I don't think either teams were particularly good last night to be honest. Bayern made the most chances but I think that was more to do with the way Chelsea has set up as opposed to Bayern being the truly dominant team. It was a dull final and 1-1 was a fair enough score in the end.

 

[duckroll]

If you cannot get the ball into the net, you don't deserve to win. It is as simple as that. This isn't a dance performance. Players and teams are not rated by how entertaining they are or how good they are at individual aspects of the sport. The aim is to take the ball and get it into the net. If you cannot do that, you do not deserve to win.

Bayern didn't even lose the penalty shoot-out because of a save. They lost because Schweinsteiger hit the post. He couldn't get the ball into the net. That is Bayern's entire night in a nutshell. They couldn't finish. They created so many chances, but they let themselves down by not being able to finish. Chelsea in comparison created less chances, but when it counted they equalized. This isn't a popularity contest. It's a game of sports. No one "deserves" to win other than the one who actually does, unless there was poor officiating or cheating involved. Neither were the cause of Bayern's downfall last night, so that point is moot.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I don't think either teams were particularly good last night to be honest. Bayern made the most chances but I think that was more to do with the way Chelsea has set up as opposed to Bayern being the truly dominant team. It was a dull final and 1-1 was a fair enough score in the end.

I don't think Chelsea defended as well as they did against e.g. Barcelona at the Camp Nou. Unlike Barcelona, Bayern got behind and into the Chelsea penalty area and pulled the trigger. The Olic chance in ET where he passed it across the face of goal rather than shooting, the Robben shot that was blocked magnificently by a late Cole challenge and the Gomez fluff; all of them could be classed as misses. Ashley Cole admitted after the game in an interview with Sky that "with the chances they created, they should have won".

I would go as far to say that Bayern threatened the Chelsea defence more than Barca. If Drogba hadn't scored that late equaliser, w'ed all be talking about why Chelsea didn't turn up last night. As it stands. we'll be talking about how Bayern could have missed their countless opportunities. The narrative already is of how they lost the final rather than Chelsea winning the final.

 

[duckroll]

I have some images which sums up a lot of feelings in this thread over the last 20 hours or so:

 

[WJD]

I don't think Chelsea defended as well as they did against e.g. Barcelona at the Camp Nou. Unlike Barcelona, Bayern got behind and into the Chelsea penalty area and pulled the trigger. The Olic chance in ET where he passed it across the face of goal rather than shooting, the Robben shot that was blocked magnificently by a late Cole challenge and the Gomez fluff; all of them could be classed as misses. Ashley Cole admitted after the game in an interview with Sky that "with the chances they created, they should have won".

I would go as far to say that Bayern threatened the Chelsea defence more than Barca. If Drogba hadn't scored that late equaliser, w'ed all be talking about why Chelsea didn't turn up last night

I completely agree with you on all that, but I still stand by the point that Bayern weren't particularly impressive themselves. In fact I'd say the best move of the match was a Chelsea breakaway. (The one that lead to Kalou shooting at Neuer's near post)

 

[StealthGoblin]

By saying e.g. Bayern deserved the trophy, that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the effort put in by the Chelsea players and the excellent defensive performances - especially by Cole and Luiz last night. A couple of weeks ago someone described the sport as being result driven, specifically he argued; it's all about putting the ball into the net. Ignore brilliant passing and flair for a moment, Bayern were the better team throughout the night in terms of chances created and forward play. Chelsea, whether or not they were trying to play on the break, couldn't muster much and rarely if ever threatened. Whilst they improved in the first half of ET, Bayern still created more chances. The fact that Chelsea created so little could also be put down to Bayern's tactics.

So by what measure are we defining 'deserved'? In what aspect were Chelsea better than Bayern last night? Unless, of course, we're including a penalty shootout into the equation. You're completely delusional if you honestly believe Chelsea deserved it on that performance. Your claim that winning = deserved, regardless of performance, is ridiculous. How many times have we seen teams dominate games only to lose?

This isn't even about style of play. This debate is entirely something else. I understand opinions, particularly about sport, is subjective but this isn't a matter of opinion: in this case anyone who subscribes to the position that Chelsea are deserved Champions are absolutely, unequivocally and depressingly wrong.

Chelsea's defence against two of the best teams in the world in both the semi final and the final was exceptionally good. They rode their luck at times, but they took their chances. They fought for each other.

Football is more than flair and goals. Its about a team performance and shutting out opponents. Chelsea by no means played the best attacking football in the tournament, but to have your captain and linchpin defender sent off against Barcelona - the best attacking team in the world, then beat them. . .then beat Bayern in the final with two key defenders missing and two key midfielders missing, one of whom has really driven them back from their disastrous run with some exceptional performances is nothing to be scoffed at.

People really need to understand how missing Terry, Ivanovic, Ramires and Meireles was a bigger loss to Chelsea combined than Bayerns suspensions.

 

[Slizz]

Deserved to win is an odd phrase when pertaining to sports. They only way a team deserves to win a game that they lose is a blatant miss or terrible call from a referee that results in points either taken away from said losing team or giving points to other team on a bad call.

That didn't happen in this match. Chelsea deserved to win. The CL format is what it is and they succeeded by the skin of their teeth to win it. Can't fault them, they won.

 

[Salvadora]

It would have been suicide for Chelsea to play any other way really.

 

[duckroll]

With the chances Bayern created throughout the game, the odds were on their side to win. But I don't see how anyone can say they deserved to win, seeing how it was their own fault they couldn't finish. It wasn't even bad luck, it was just shit finishing. 2 full hours of shit finishing, and inability to capitalize on those chances.

Sports is like life: it's not just about the opportunities you have, but also about acting on those opportunities. Bayern had the former, they failed to do the latter. They have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I have some images which sums up a lot of feelings in this thread over the last 20 hours or so:

http://i.imgur.com/JNvxG.jpg[/MG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Urltj.jpg[/G]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QrTQ6.jpg[/IM][/QUOTE]

Thought provoking response, some excellent points made in this post. Can't say I disagree

 

[Wilbur]

Taken at face value, looking at the 40 odd shots Bayern had last night, the offside goal, the penalty, you could make a case for them being deserving of the win (I certainly wouldn't say you were unequivocally wrong because of it).  

But 20 of those shots were blocked by Chelsea players. The penalty was saved by the Chelsea goalkeeper. The offside goal came about because Cole held his position and didn't stray behind Ribery. They restricted Bayern to an awful lot of pointless shots from outside the area and when they did break through, they were met by a great keeper. On the odd foray forward by Drogba Bayern's defence looked unsettled, and Chelsea took their chance. 

Based on the penalty shoot out, Chelsea deserved to win because they put their shots in the back of the net. Based on the match itself, Chelsea deserved to win because they assessed Bayern's superiority in fluid passing football, looked to restrict it, and take their chances on the counter. 

It's a bit of a shame I suppose that all that money has been spent on a team that has surrendered possession, but it doesn't make them any more deserving of winning because they did the job they were supposed to do. No one would argue Chelsea haven't been a travesty in the league this year, because over 38 games your squad can be accurately judged on its strengths and weaknesses. Chelsea are the sixth best team in England, which certainly doesn't make them the best team in Europe. But they are the most deserving of this trophy, for fighting tooth and nail, defending with their lives, taking their chances and countering a team's game plan. 

Bayern's inability to win this rests on them. For that they don't deserve it, because they didn't address their shortcomings, they just let Robben cut in time and time again. Heynckes didn't really have a plan when faced with Chelsea, same as Barcelona didn't. So they stopped two of Europe's strongest teams, it isn't a coincidence. 

 

[Salvadora]

Thought provoking response, some excellent points made in this post. Can't say I disagree

Well you have gone off the rails since Barcelona lost.

 

[fuenf]

Every team that manages to get to the finals deserves to win. Chelsea wanted it more. Bayern was afraid of losing the shootout while Chelsea wanted to win it, simple as that. In regulation for both teans "not losing the game" came first, the only difference is that Bayern at least tried to win but they simply werent good enough to convert. So yeah, as much as it pains me to say Chelsea deserved it because in the end they wanted it more.

 

[Ashes]

With the chances Bayern created throughout the game, the odds were on their side to win. But I don't see how anyone can say they deserved to win, seeing how it was their own fault they couldn't finish. It wasn't even bad luck, it was just shit finishing. 2 full hours of shit finishing, and inability to capitalize on those chances.

Sports is like life: it's not just about the opportunities you have, but also about acting on those opportunities. Bayern had the former, they failed to do the latter. They have no one to blame but themselves.

Football is a funny old game. It's not he who creates the most chances, it's he who scores more.

It's not a case of he who has more corners, (bayern had 20), it's who used them the best, (Chelsea had one corner).

Chelsea were better defensively (they had to defend their line pretty much the entire game), and more lethal with their limited attacks.

Chelsea had less of the ball too.


Bayern got their tactics right in the midfield, but their strikers had an off game. Chelsea had weaker side overall, but their back 5 and the front 1, kept them in the game.

And penalties... England, somehow beat, Germany. And that's something I've not seen in my lifetime.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Well you have gone off the rails since Barcelona lost.

I remain of the belief that before, and even after the Drogba equaliser, Bayern were the better side. They should have won but fluffed their chances. I feel bad for them. I said it before the game that I hoped the side that played better would win. If that means I've "gone off the rails" then I hope I backflipped off them with fireworks in the background

 

[StealthGoblin]

Chelsea's win is even more impressive to me when they were basically the away side. So much was against them for that match.

 

[magash]

I remain of the belief that before, and even after the Drogba equaliser, Bayern were the better side. They should have won but fluffed their chances. I feel bad for them. I said it before the game that I hoped the side that played better would win. If that means I've "gone off the rails" then I hope I backflipped off them with fireworks in the background

Judging by your responses through out this thread I take it that you are an Arsenal FC fan?

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Taken at face value, looking at the 40 odd shots Bayern had last night, the offside goal, the penalty, you could make a case for them being deserving of the win (I certainly wouldn't say you were unequivocally wrong because of it).  

But 20 of those shots were blocked by Chelsea players. The penalty was saved by the Chelsea goalkeeper. The offside goal came about because Cole held his position and didn't stray behind Ribery. They restricted Bayern to an awful lot of pointless shots from outside the area and when they did break through, they were met by a great keeper. On the odd foray forward by Drogba Bayern's defence looked unsettled, and Chelsea took their chance. 

Based on the penalty shoot out, Chelsea deserved to win because they put their shots in the back of the net. Based on the match itself, Chelsea deserved to win because they assessed Bayern's superiority in fluid passing football, looked to restrict it, and take their chances on the counter. 

It's a bit of a shame I suppose that all that money has been spent on a team that has surrendered possession, but it doesn't make them any more deserving of winning because they did the job they were supposed to do. No one would argue Chelsea haven't been a travesty in the league this year, because over 38 games your squad can be accurately judged on its strengths and weaknesses. Chelsea are the sixth best team in England, which certainly doesn't make them the best team in Europe. But they are the most deserving of this trophy, for fighting tooth and nail, defending with their lives, taking their chances and countering a team's game plan. 

Bayern's inability to win this rests on them. For that they don't deserve it, because they didn't address their shortcomings, they just let Robben cut in time and time again. Heynckes didn't really have a plan when faced with Chelsea, same as Barcelona didn't. So they stopped two of Europe's strongest teams, it isn't a coincidence. 

Granted. But using that logic, you could say Bayern limited Chelsea's attack, stifled them in midfield and restricted them to play on the break can you not? And the shots Chelsea had? Blocked or saved. Their other attempt? A corner Their highlight? Their defensive blocks, and yet the bigger highlight in that area were the misses Bayern had, chances that Chelsea could do nothing about e.g. the two Gomez chances in the first half and the Olic one in ET. What say you in response?

 

[OldRosa]

I remain of the belief that before, and even after the Drogba equaliser, Bayern were the better side. They should have won but fluffed their chances. I feel bad for them. I said it before the game that I hoped the side that played better would win. If that means I've "gone off the rails" then I hope I backflipped off them with fireworks in the background

They were the better side, but they weren't very good. Especially not compared to the brilliant games against Madrid.

Ribery, Gomez and Robben played awful.

 

[duckroll]

Granted. But using that logic, you could say Bayern limited Chelsea's attack, stifled them in midfield and restricted them to play on the break can you not? And the shots Chelsea had? Blocked or saved. Their other attempt? A corner. What say you in response?

Both teams couldn't score well and ended up in a penalty shoot out. Bayern lost. The end.

 

[Salvadora]

I remain of the belief that before, and even after the Drogba equaliser, Bayern were the better side. They should have won but fluffed their chances. I feel bad for them. I said it before the game that I hoped the side that played better would win. If that means I've "gone off the rails" then I hope I backflipped off them with fireworks in the background

Football is dead.

With over reactions like this its obvious why people are not taking you seriously.

 

[Gambit]

Whether it's deserved or not is a moot point, as it is what it is.

However, I do think it was clear that Bayern "lost" the game, rather than Chelsea "winning" it.

The same as Barca lost the semi.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

With over reactions like this its obvious why people are not taking you seriously.

I was joking with that comment for pete's sake. I know of people's perception of me here, I just played on that character role with that post. Do you have anything to say about the actual match rather than make comments about me?

Whether it's deserved or not is a moot point, as it is what it is.

However, I do think it was clear that Bayern "lost" the game, rather than Chelsea "winning" it.

The same as Barca lost the semi.

Precisely. Finally someone sees my point

They were the better side, but they weren't very good. Especially not compared to the brilliant games against Madrid.

Ribery, Gomez and Robben played awful.

I agree. Ironically though I think they had better chances against Chelsea than Madrid

 

[Wilbur]

Granted. But using that logic, you could say Bayern limited Chelsea's attack, stifled them in midfield and restricted them to play on the break can you not? And the shots Chelsea had? Blocked or saved. Their other attempt? A corner Their highlight? Their defensive blocks, and yet the bigger highlight in that area were the misses Bayern had, chances that Chelsea could do nothing about e.g. the two Gomez chances in the first half and the Olic one in ET. What say you in response?

Bayern's natural talent, better attacking options and all round stronger team meant Chelsea had to set up to play on the break, and negated said attack. Chelsea didn't play like they did as a result of Bayern making it impossible to play otherwise, they played like that because it would stop Bayern's flow. It was the game plan from the start based on RDM analysing Bayern - hence Bertrand on the left. Bayern played into Chelsea's hands in that respect.

The shots Bayern had? Blocked, saved, and missed. If we're bringing it down to basic level that's all Bayern had. The two Gomez chances and the Olic chance just reinforces my opinion, that Chelsea deserved it because their gameplan paid dividends and they took the chances they got. Bayern didn't. And when you're spending 30m on a striker who scores 40 goals in a season, you expect him to turn up for your biggest game. He didn't. How this translates to Bayern deserved it despite fluffing their chances I don't know.

Did they play more attractive football? Yes. Did they play better football? Attacking wise, yes. Did they play better? No, because their gameplan didn't work.

 

[Ashes]

Football is dead.

With over reactions like this its obvious why people are not taking you seriously.

How are you (Meus) saying a legitimate goal is less merit worthy than 20 chances?

It's against football rules.

/oh the irony.

And Bayern didn't even play beautiful football.* They played dull tactically purposeful football with Müller and co.

*In my opinion of course.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Bayern's natural talent, better attacking options and all round stronger team meant Chelsea had to set up to play on the break, and negated said attack. Chelsea didn't play like they did as a result of Bayern making it impossible to play otherwise, they played like that because it would stop Bayern's flow. It was the game plan from the start based on RDM analysing Bayern - hence Bertrand on the left. Bayern played into Chelsea's hands in that respect.

The shots Bayern had? Blocked, saved, and missed. If we're bringing it down to basic level that's all Bayern had. The two Gomez chances and the Olic chance just reinforces my opinion, that Chelsea deserved it because their gameplan paid dividends and they took the chances they got. Bayern didn't. And when you're spending 30m on a striker who scores 40 goals in a season, you expect him to turn up for your biggest game. He didn't. How this translates to Bayern deserved it despite fluffing their chances I don't know.

Did they play more attractive football? Yes. Did they play better football? Attacking wise, yes. Did they play better? No, because their gameplan didn't work.

Fair enough opinion. I understand what you're saying

 

[NoRéN]

Sergio Ramos: I didn't know Neuer enjoys losing finals

Real Madrid defender Sergio Ramos has hit back at Manuel Neuer in the wake of Bayern Munich's Champions League final loss against Chelsea after spot kicks on Saturday.

The Germany international made fun of the center-back after his penalty miss against Bayern in the semifinals of the competition, saying 'I didn't know Sergio Ramos enjoyed blasting his spot kicks over the bar'.

Nevertheless, his comments came back to haunt him after Saturday's loss at the Allianz Arena, as Sergio Ramos was quick to ridicule the former Schalke star.

"I didn't know Neuer enjoys losing finals. Better luck next year. Always stay humble," the Madrid defender said via Twitter.

Bayern was beaten 4-3 after spot kicks as Ivica Olic and Bastian Schweinsteiger failed to find the net from 12 yards.

The score after 120 minutes of play was 1-1 following goals from Thomas Muller and Didier Drogba.

lol

 

[krYlon]

So, did Cech get a hand to the Schweinsteiger penalty or not?

The way Cech has been speaking suggests he did, and I've seen some sites say he did, but I haven't seen any evidence to confirm it, like a slo-mo from behind the goal.

Anyone know?

 

[Broder Salsa]

I was joking with that comment for pete's sake. I know of people's perception of me here, I just played on that character role with that post

Next time you might want to make that more obvious, seeing as that is completely in line with the hilarious stuff you normally post.

Lets just take a look after the Barca match :

This game is finished.

RIP Football

 

[gurasa]

So, did Cech get a hand to the Schweinsteiger penalty or not?

The way Cech has been speaking suggests he did, and I've seen some sites say he did, but I haven't seen any evidence to confirm it, like a slo-mo from behind the goal.

Anyone know?

Yes, he did get a touch on that ball. Otherwise, I think it was going in.

 

[StealthGoblin]

So, did Cech get a hand to the Schweinsteiger penalty or not?

The way Cech has been speaking suggests he did, and I've seen some sites say he did, but I haven't seen any evidence to confirm it, like a slo-mo from behind the goal.

Anyone know?

Yeah, he got a touch.

Touch was minor, but it looks to be there.

 

[krYlon]

Yes, he did get a touch on that ball. Otherwise, I think it was going in.

I'd really love to see a camera angle that confirmed it. If it was a save then it's one of the greatest in football history surely.
And Schweinsteiger would not be to blame because it would have been a very well placed penalty.

 

[leadbelly]

I do find it funny actually that this was the year that Chelsea won the Champions League. I would say this is the weakest Chelsea side for quite a few years. An ageing Chelsea side that appeared to be past their best. It does almost seem like fate in that respect. Because a lot of their big players are close to the end of their career now.

 

[krYlon]

I do find it funny actually that this was the year that Chelsea won the Champions League. I would say this is the weakest Chelsea side for quite a few years. An ageing Chelsea side that appeared to be past their best. It does almost seem like fate in that respect. Because a lot of their big players are close to the end of their career now.

I think people keep forgetting how well the likes of Ramires, Mata and Ivanovic played in the CL this season. It's not just about the older players. Mikel was also excellent towards the end, Cahill excellent in the final, and Torres was getting back to his best.
This is a good Chelsea side that underachieved in the league.

 

[NoRéN]

I think people keep forgetting how well the likes of Ramires, Mata and Ivanovic played in the CL this season. It's not just about the older players. Mikel was also excellent towards the end, Cahill excellent in the final, and Torres was getting back to his best.
This is a good Chelsea side that underachieved in the league.

Can it just be a bit of both? An aging Chelsea side with a mix of good players that underachieved in the league.

Can't believe they finished outside the top four.

 

[gurasa]

I'd really love to see a camera angle that confirmed it. If it was a save then it's one of the greatest in football history surely.
And Schweinsteiger would not be to blame because it would have been a very well placed penalty.

Here's a gif I just made. From this angle, you can see a change in the trajectory of the shot due to Cech's touch:

 

[xbhaskarx]

Here's a gif I just made. From this angle, you can see a change in the trajectory of the shot due to Cech's touch:

I had not noticed that before but I think you're right...

 

[dabig2]

Here's a gif I just made. From this angle, you can see a change in the trajectory of the shot due to Cech's touch:

http://h11.abload.de/img/1fxkcx.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]

Yup, very clear in that gif. If he doesn't get his hand on that ball, it slips in inside the goalpost. But he changes the trajectory just well enough to make the ball go wider than it would've.

Though I'd love to have one of those inside the goal cams to see the degree of how much he saved that goal :)

 

[Broder Salsa]

Here's a gif I just made. From this angle, you can see a change in the trajectory of the shot due to Cech's touch:

Yep brilliant stuff from Cech, when I saw that hit the post my first thought was "it's going to hit him in the back". He also went to the correct side on each of the shots.

 

[Salvadora]

Cech has went back to God tier this season.

 

[Freewheelin']

Cech has went back to God tier this season.

He has always been God-tier.

 

[Oxx]

That GIF just makes me want to buy a Vita.

 

[krYlon]

Here's a gif I just made. From this angle, you can see a change in the trajectory of the shot due to Cech's touch:

You're right! Fantastic save

 

[Mully]

Still can't believe Bayern couldn't pull it out yesterday.

 

[comedian]

Chelsea won. I'm over the moon. Everything else is irrelevant.