-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
I WANT: Open world Zelda; core items from start; challenging, with skippable tutorial
- Thread starter Neiteio
- Start date
PataHikari
Banned
So you want wide open unfun areas with nothing to do.
So you want Majora's Mask, only without the good game design that makes Majora's Mask good.
So not only do you want a wide open empty unfun world in which after wandering around for hours, you'll stumble into the hardest dungeon, you then want to make it so that if by some miracle the poor player doesn't do that they'll still end up putting down the terrible unfun game because it's too difficult.
You to never have any input in the Zelda series because it's a sure fire way to kill it.
Jawmuncher
Member
Personally the series has been pretty dead since after wind waker.
An open world is simply a world where you can explore freely. If you associate that with open unfun areas, you're playing lazily designed games. It's possible, believe it or not, to design a world with the same sense of exploration as Wind Waker's ocean, but with actual stuff to do!
TheCongressman1
Member
The reason it works this way is because of how rigid items uses are. For example, Hookshot does one thing and one thing only. Essentially becoming a fancy key. There is no skill involved, point click and done. It's the most shallow gameplay element in Zelda.
Now, on the other hand, if it were an actual tool that allowed the player to experiment and explore with there wouldn't be a problem. Dungeons would be flexible enough for skilled players to overcome larger obstacles, while there possibility of completing an easier dungeon to obtain an item that will make other dungeons easier.
Keeping on the example of the Hookshot, one thing that would vastly improve it would be the ability to grapple more materials and items. Also allowing the player to swing on it instead of being instantly taken to the grapple point. Of course this is only one example, but there are countless ways to improve and expand items functionality.
I've spoken countless times on this subject. I really need to just go ahead and write an essay on it and post it every time this comes up.
This can not be said enough. People have a really stupid idea of what open world means.
PataHikari
Banned
Well good thing your opinion doesn't matter since they're still making Zelda games the series is still alive.
The game most people bitched about at launch and for years after?
PataHikari
Banned
So, unfocused unfun "sandboxes" that substitute "exploration" for actual game design.
Buckethead
Banned
That's fine. I want no tutorial of any kind.
I want them to throw you in the forests of Hyrule and be like have at it motherfucker, smarten up, or you in the jungle baby you gonna die.
PataHikari
Banned
Why should I play that then?
I'll just play a game that lets me actually have fun.
Edit: Demon Souls gives me a tutorial.
Eyemus Lutt
Member
Because Majoras Mask is the shittiest 3D Zelda.
And when they tried again with motion controls, it was the 2nd shittiest 3D Zelda.
That still sounds too much like an NES Final Fantasy or Zelda II for my tastes. Just do what they did in the GBC Zeldas or Shadow of the Colossus: Beat monster -> Clue to where next monster is.
The hell is wrong with you? Wind Waker was amazing barring the distance between islands. And Minish Cap.
PataHikari
Banned
Except they're, you know, the two best 3D Zeldas.
Nintendo should co-develop two mainland Zelda titles for Wii U. One title developed by Aonuma's team and the other title by Retro Studios. Make it a competition: East vs. West, tradition vs. innovation, old-guard vs. fresh blood. This takes the pressure off of the current team, which honestly keeps recycling a stale formula.
I'd accept a Wind Waker 2. Long as there isn't any annoying motion control junk.
Open world sounds good, but you'll never sell it to "Zelda fans" on the Internet. Defending the almighty N is a full blown religion to some. Best bet is to hope for a new IP from somewhere's else. 3D Dot heroes was a pretty good start. Darksiders was decent, and who knows, maybe it'll open up more with future games.
Open world sounds good, but you'll never sell it to "Zelda fans" on the Internet. Defending the almighty N is a full blown religion to some. Best bet is to hope for a new IP from somewhere's else. 3D Dot heroes was a pretty good start. Darksiders was decent, and who knows, maybe it'll open up more with future games.
So Pata, you're completely happy with the Zelda series in its current state, eh? Snail's pacing and tedious fetch quests and repetitious backtracking and no exploration, no discovery, no adventure, no mystery or magic, just find three of this, find five of that, light defeats dark, etc.
Right now Zelda is partially sustained by old fans who keep buying the new games to try and recapture magic that is no longer there, and its absence is not due to time or age but due to Nintendo abandoning some key elements that were present in older installments of the series but have been all but forgotten now.
I'm talking exploration. Discovery. Challenge. Smarts. (Gone as soon as your sidekick shares an unsolicited tip, AKA spoils the puzzle or where to go.) You complain of open unfun spaces but an overworld doesn't have to be shitty like the sky in SS. It can be full of nooks and crannies, secret caves and grottos, hidden passageways and curious sights... all while inviting exploration in any direction you choose.
PataHikari
Banned
Sorry! Motion Control is here to stay with the Zelda series.
I'm sorry you hate and fear change but things happen.
Trickster
Member
Sanbox games can only be "unfocused" and "unfun"?
PataHikari
Banned
Yup! They've consistently produced fun games that have managed to be interesting without adding in masturbation about how HARDCORE this game is.
makingmusic476
Member
I want a less "game"-ey Zelda. Yes, I did use that word. =(
And by that what I mean is a Zelda with less features that scream "THIS IS A GAME". No glowing pink switches and stuff like that. Design the world such that any traps, puzzles, and other gameplay mechanics fit in more naturally, thus creating a more believable setting/atmosphere. Make something that's more realistic. And by that, I don't mean more like real life, but rather something that is designed in such a way that it seems like it could actually exist, within the realm of its own bazaar rules of physics, magical forces, and so on. I would consider games like Demon's Souls to be realistic in this sense.
Also, return to a traditional controller, and finally give us proper third person, dual analog camera control.
Aside from those changes, I'd be fine with them sticking with the usual Zelda formula, though a more cohesive, open overworld would be nice. Just give me cool items, interesting NPCs, and challenging dungeons, and I'm set. As for artstyle, I'd love to see something inspired by Majora's Mask. Think Twilight Princess, but with much more dramatic use of color.
The Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess remain my four favorite games of all time, and Skyward Sword likely would be up there as well if it weren't for the controls. Though I have yet to actually finish the game, so it would be unfair for me to properly judge it at this point in time.
And by that what I mean is a Zelda with less features that scream "THIS IS A GAME". No glowing pink switches and stuff like that. Design the world such that any traps, puzzles, and other gameplay mechanics fit in more naturally, thus creating a more believable setting/atmosphere. Make something that's more realistic. And by that, I don't mean more like real life, but rather something that is designed in such a way that it seems like it could actually exist, within the realm of its own bazaar rules of physics, magical forces, and so on. I would consider games like Demon's Souls to be realistic in this sense.
Also, return to a traditional controller, and finally give us proper third person, dual analog camera control.
Aside from those changes, I'd be fine with them sticking with the usual Zelda formula, though a more cohesive, open overworld would be nice. Just give me cool items, interesting NPCs, and challenging dungeons, and I'm set. As for artstyle, I'd love to see something inspired by Majora's Mask. Think Twilight Princess, but with much more dramatic use of color.
The Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess remain my four favorite games of all time, and Skyward Sword likely would be up there as well if it weren't for the controls. Though I have yet to actually finish the game, so it would be unfair for me to properly judge it at this point in time.
Yeah, I hate and fear motion controls.
PataHikari
Banned
Screw that.
Make it even more gamey. Realism is for suckers. Trying to make a "world" just makes an unfun game.
Zelda is a game. Not "exploration" not some masturbation about how HARD AND BRUTAL this is. It's a game. You have fun with it.
Make it even more gamey. Realism is for suckers. Trying to make a "world" just makes an unfun game.
Zelda is a game. Not "exploration" not some masturbation about how HARD AND BRUTAL this is. It's a game. You have fun with it.
The Xtortionist
Member
A completely open Zelda would be interesting but totally radical. Personally I could go for more branching paths in the game progression though - perhaps a middle ground between this idea and current Zelda trends. For example, after dungeon 1 you can go to dungeon 2 or 3. Both dungeons 2 and 3 have alternate routes/puzzle solutions that make use of the other's dungeon item, providing a hint of replay value. After 2 and 3, you go to dungeon 4 which uses all of the items acquired so far. After dungeon 4, you choose the order of 5, 6, and 7. All three use 1-4's items along with their own, and have alternate paths/solutions for the items of the other dungeons in their group (so 5 and 6's items if you're playing 7). Then finally dungeon 8 which uses everything and kicks your ass.
Structure aside, totally agree about skippable tutorials and difficulty. It doesn't have to be too hard, but a game about a lone dude adventuring through a mostly hostile world shouldn't be a handholding experience. If you do that, the gameplay clashes with the whole theme of the game.
Structure aside, totally agree about skippable tutorials and difficulty. It doesn't have to be too hard, but a game about a lone dude adventuring through a mostly hostile world shouldn't be a handholding experience. If you do that, the gameplay clashes with the whole theme of the game.
Can we all agree that going back up to Skyworld every time you wanted to switch regions was completely unnecessary, though? Give me a damn warp song, YEESH.
You talk a lot about masturbation, PataHikari.
You talk a lot about masturbation, PataHikari.
So you're actually defending SS's slow pace, backtracking, fetch quests, bloated tutorials, excessive interruptions and nonstop handholding?
Amazing? Really? The only thing that game accomplished was reminding me of how great the previous games in the series were.
Buckethead
Banned
What's fun about hacking hundreds of easy enemies?
Red Dead is a good example of what they should be striving for, imo.
Respectably tough bad guys, rough environment too.
I don't think it needs to be "dark" just a step-up in AI and expectations.
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
It took me a while to realise but I've now resigned myself to the fact that LttP was the pinnacle of the series.
No more Zelda purchases for me, I'm done.
No more Zelda purchases for me, I'm done.
makingmusic476
Member
Why would designing a switch that blends in better with the environment (the only specific example I used) make the game any less fun, or any more hard and brutal?
Unless you saw me mention Demon's Souls and assumed I said the game should be exactly like that. Which I didn't.
You are being defensive as fuck, and I have no clue why.
I'm equally alienated by the series lately, though my high watermark was Majora's Mask for the whole package, TWW for the world and charm. Still, I'll keep buying the new games in some vain hope they'll actually be good, because us Zelda fans are crazy. I'm sure some here will interpret the strong sales as validation of the design of an adventure game with no adventure.
PataHikari
Banned
Not "defensive".
"Offensive."
These threads always piss me off.
They're nothing more then a bunch of nerds masturbating about how they, the minority, should be catered to in a popular series. This will, of course, kill the series once it's done, but what do they care? They're the "good" people.
I don't 100% agree but I can truly understand where you are coming from here.
The people who are making Zelda now are clearly not the same group that was making Zelda then. And it shows... it really shows.
PataHikari
Banned
No. I'm not.
Because it doesn't have a "Slow pace" more so then any other game in the series (Zelda has always been a slow paced series) and you do realize that any "backtracking" would be a million times worse in your dumb "open world" concept since you will inevitably miss a vital item on the other side of the world. The "Fetch quests" are minor side quests. And the "bloated tutorials, excessive interruptions and nonstop handholding" are just false.
Then shut up about the series. You are clearly not it's target audience and likely never was.
makingmusic476
Member
I'm sure Eiji Anouma and the rest of Nintendo are watching this thread intently, taking any idea they can from us whiny, self-entitled, self-fellating nerds. The franchise's end is nigh!
Or we could just be random dudes talking about where we hope our favorite series will go in a thread on a forum on the internet that Nintendo will never even know exists.
I think the "nerd" is the one who gets "pissed" off by something on a videogame message board in the first place. ;P
Look, there's no need to cry because not everyone likes the same qualities in a game you do. The people who want change have gone to great lengths to explain why. There's nothing unrelatable about that desire; I even painted it in terms of its emotional value.
This about the desire for the thrill of going on an adventure, forging your own path through the wilderness, uncovering secrets, solving mysteries, etc. It's the excitement, the magic. I don't know why you try to dehumanize such desires as "hardcore," but then again you're taking this all unusually personally. You said yourself the majority is always right, so just rest assured you'll keep getting the same stuff and you won't have to fear any change whatsoever.
PataHikari
Banned
No. You want stagnation.
Literally nothing you "suggested" was new. You didn't think of any new ideas. All you did was say "Use the elements from older Zelda games!"
The open world from Zelda 1, the difficulty of Zelda 2, and the characters of Majora's Mask, the lack of any tutorials from the NES games as well. It's telling the majority of the elements you want come from the outdated NES era.
You didn't read the OP: In this model it's impossible to miss an item on the other side of the world. It's literally nothing but constant progress. And as someone who's played Zelda games since, well, forever, the last several entries have REALLY slowed down, even by Zelda standards. Boot up your copy of OoT 3D; you can knock out the intro in that game in one-fiftieth the time of TP.
Majora's Mask is my all-time favorite game. Refusing to criticize something you love is fanboyism. I'm not a fanboy.
I'm saying take what -worked- in the NES era and modernize it for the here and now. Which is to say, the thrill of exploration made far easier and more accessible by modern design. Not a literal copy/paste job. You're grasping for straws. And of course these elements existed in the series in some capacity prior -- that's the whole point. It's recapturing the things that made Zelda work better before than it does today -- the no bullshit approach; the sense of adventure -- but doing it with streamlined, accessible, modern design sensibilities. Trust me, you'd get through SS just fine without Fi telling you how to wipe your ass. In fact, you'd probably like the game even better!
Buckethead
Banned
Above all, I want them to get a new visual look for Link.
The harder for a female to cosplay, the better.
The harder for a female to cosplay, the better.
PataHikari
Banned
Yes you are. The fact that you described yourself as being alienated from the series proves it. You're just a bitter fanboy that is frustrated that Nintendo isn't killing the series for you.
I have to admit though, this is the dumbest thing said in the thread so far though.
AdventureRacing
Member
Honestly i just want HD zelda whatever it means, i've been dying to see it and a few of nintendos other franchises move into HD.
Hey pal, you're the only one afraid to hurt Nintendo's precious delicate feelings here. You're zealously defending the absolute back-asswards design philosophy Nintendo has taken to this series of late, intellectually insulting by the standards of like every other developer ever, and you're calling -me- the fanboy because I'm willing to honestly acknowledge that, hey, these fetch quests and constant interruptions suck and, hey, an adventure game might be more, y'know, adventurous with exploration and shit? Truly mindblowing stuff, I know. You got my number alright.
IdreamofHIME
Member
I like the a part where you want Nintendo to totally reinvent Zelda, but then it asks you "Have you played Zelda before?" to skip the tutorial.
The game you described doesn't sound like Zelda, so how would knowledge of past games help in this one? LOL!
Also your dungeon idea is the worst idea I ever heard for a Zelda game, even worse than redoing the same temple a dozen times like in Phantom Hourglass.
Sounds like the dungeons would become generic Elder Scroll-esque copy and past holes in the ground rather than experiences that stick with you years after you beat the game.
Nintendo needs to not listen to the fans sometimes. It was the fans that caused the style/mood of Twilight Princess to happen. Not a bad game, but it played things so safe compared to Wind Waker and Majora before it.
The game you described doesn't sound like Zelda, so how would knowledge of past games help in this one? LOL!
Also your dungeon idea is the worst idea I ever heard for a Zelda game, even worse than redoing the same temple a dozen times like in Phantom Hourglass.
Sounds like the dungeons would become generic Elder Scroll-esque copy and past holes in the ground rather than experiences that stick with you years after you beat the game.
Nintendo needs to not listen to the fans sometimes. It was the fans that caused the style/mood of Twilight Princess to happen. Not a bad game, but it played things so safe compared to Wind Waker and Majora before it.
So you either didn't play it, or you didn't play it for very long. Wind Waker is an incredible game.
RoboGeorgeForeman
Banned
I also think the Zelda games need change, however I would be happier with smaller changes. I would probably be happy if they just got rid of the long-ass intros that have turned me off from the series completely. But if they made both the combat and the puzzles slightly more challenging and eliminated the whole fairy hint system (or at least gave the player the option to turn it off) I wouldn't complain.
I don't expect really much if any change as the series appears to be doing just fine sales wise. But, if the series does stay the way it currently is, I'll more than likely be spending my money elsewhere.
I don't expect really much if any change as the series appears to be doing just fine sales wise. But, if the series does stay the way it currently is, I'll more than likely be spending my money elsewhere.