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[iamshadowlark]

Page 12 doesn't mention consoles. That page doesn't mean a thing other than API plans in general.


Baseless extrapolation.


What does this have to do with anything? All they mention under WebGL are Opera/Firefox, and upcoming support for Chrome. OpenCL support is mentioned for MacOS. Sony is ultimately going to use their own custom API ala libgcm.

You get used to it.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Or just a WDTV or similar mini box for $99. Consoles are just not consumer-friendly enough to compete in the TV space.

Maybe, Microsoft appears to be trying to correct that.

Just to be sure we are on the same page: XTV apps like Skype, Augmented reality, extended information via trigger data in the the video stream, support for h.265 and possibly more is what we are talking about, right?

Game consoles are harder to use because they have to provide for more features and flexibility than bottom end cheaper devices can support. Two screen "Glass" controllers are an answer. Move is an answer, Kinect is an answer. None provide for every use case; a easy to use controller that solves all these problems would be a game changer.

I keep going back to the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint which echos the hbbTV, ATSC 2.0, Tru2way RVU features and Sony whitepapers/Sony Media Fusion proposal/ALLVID Alliance/Google TV and they point to both wanting to support a whole home ecosystem with control over the living room set top box. PS3 had DLNA and DTCP-IP by 2010 but DTCP-IP hasn't been used yet, it's first use will be for RVU this October (I think).

So it appears that Sony and Microsoft have plans regardless of what you think. Not saying that you are wrong, it could be they have some way planned to make the game console easier to use. Microsoft is probably Bing/Kinect/Voice and Sony?

 

[jeff_rigby]

After posting then re-reading my post and AlStong's I feel I should post my origional again:

PDF from Lecture by Nvidia on Accelerating Mobile Augmented Reality

Interesting points:

Page 12 on a road map for OpenGL and OpenGLES beyond 2013 and includes hints on NextGEN Console.

Mentions efficiencies needed by portable same as mentioned by AMD for Next gen consoles. How to save power page 6. Page 9 "Programmers View of SoC 2012" should be similar to AMD next gen Consoles. LP-DDR3 mentioned inside SoC (probably ultra wide) DDR4 contains GDDR5 features like some differential inputs that would not be needed inside a SoC. DDR4 will be outside a SoC and if ultra-wide then stacked 2.5D to a Transposer (or chip carrier) connected to the SoC.

Page 17 OS adoption of WebGL and OpenCL

Page 12 doesn't mention consoles. That page doesn't mean a thing other than API plans in general.

See on page 12 bottom right a picture from the Samaritin Demo = Next Generation Demo. Not allot there but it does hint at what we suspect, new GPU APIs are coming with next generation Consoles. I'm not stating that it's anything amazing or new information but it does help put things in perspective.

What does this have to do with anything? All they mention under WebGL are Opera/Firefox, and upcoming support for Chrome. OpenCL support is mentioned for MacOS. Sony is ultimately going to use their own custom APIs ala libgcm. Yes, they'll be similar to the khronos ones, but customized to exposing the specific HW, so what does it matter what is said about OpenCL/WebGL (for other platforms even)?

Sony in my opinion is going to use the AMD libraries not libgcm. Sony is starting this time with fully developed libraries and Khronos standards. AMD is/has developed a Linux kernel that follows HSA foundation rules, uses OpenGL and OpenCL and supports FSA-IL. There is a leak that states Sony will be supporting Linux on PS4 and at the same time Linux is released for the PS4 it will be released for the PS3. AMD FSAIL/OpenCL/OpenGL will be supported on Linux, PS4, many handhelds (Members of the HSA Foundation), most likely the Xbox 720 and PCs running Windows 8.

"AMD is betting the farm on HSA", they need to make it a standard and used by everyone or they are done as a company. They need game consoles to use it, Linux boxes to use it, handhelds to use it, PCs to use it! If you don't follow the HSA rules on a AMD fusion processor performance suffers.

When Next generation consoles are released they will have Web browsers that support WebCL and there is a hint that Microsoft MIGHT support WebGL also. Same page we are talking about and bottom right this:

Microsoft Windows RT:
- Only Microsoft native APIs
- HTML5 but not yet WebGL

With a trustzone A5 ARM cpu in 2014 and later AMD SoCs and sandboxing, there is no longer an argument that WebGL is too insecure to implement.

And yes I know that the prevailing opinion is Microsoft will not use anything but Direct Compute and DirectX. Windows 8 and the need to support an ecosystem of handhelds, the majority of SoC chip providers who want ONE standard, well two not 4 (OpenCL - OpenGL, DirectX - Direct Compute) and the W3C - Khronos supporting OpenCL OpenGL (WebCL & WebGL) put pressure on Microsoft from all sides to comply with the industry standards.

Page 9 "Programmers View of SoC 2012" should be similar to AMD next gen Consoles.

The complete quote is: "Mentions efficiencies needed by portable same as mentioned by AMD for Next gen consoles. How to save power page 6. Page 9 "Programmers View of SoC 2012" should be similar to AMD next gen Consoles. LP-DDR3 mentioned inside SoC (probably ultra wide) DDR4 contains GDDR5 features like some differential inputs that would not be needed inside a SoC. DDR4 will be outside a SoC and if ultra-wide then stacked 2.5D to a Transposer (or chip carrier) connected to the SoC.

Baseless extrapolation.

Yup, beyond both being SoCs, both trying to keep TDP low, both trying for the highest efficiency per clock cycle it's baseless extrapolation. Gesh, that's what makes next generation price/performance possible.

Back in June, during the AFDS 2012 held in Bellevue, WA, AMD held a press conference announcing the formation of Heterogeneous System Architecture Foundation (HSA Foundation).

The founding members were AMD, ARM, Imagination Technologies, MediaTek, Samsung Electronics and Texas Instruments. Over the past four months, membership more than doubled and the organization just announced its 13th member - Qualcomm Inc.

In what seems to be a major coup for the organization, Qualcomm Inc. is signing on with a top tier membership - Founder Member. This announcement also means the HSA Foundation brings together the majority of SoC vendors under one roof. According to our conversation with Phil Rogers, Corporate Fellow at AMD and President of HSA Foundation, the goal is very simple - to create a software framework that enables maximum utilization of SoC processing elements such as the CPU and GPU.

 

[mrklaw]

the thing that makes me pause about these media features, is that cablecard etc were all amazing future solutions and then fell flat on their faces, either through lack of adoption or the inability for the broadcasters and cablecos to come to agreement.

I find it surprising/unlikely that MS or sony would jump in with both feet with an untested system that has no guarantee of traction or success. I would have expected them to let the cable guys loose with it first before gambling so much of their plans on it.

Then layer on top how this is all way more US-centric than even the current gen consoles (which are fairly US centric already) and it just feels hollow to me

 

[jeff_rigby]

Advanced Micro Devices Signs Licensing Deal With RealD 9/11/2012

RealD 3D technology has been utilized by many of the world’s leading consumer electronics companies, component manufacturers and broadcasters to take today’s digital 3D entertainment experience out of the theatre and deliver it to TVs, computers, home theatres and other consumer electronics devices.

 

[El_Chino]

Advanced Micro Devices Signs Licensing Deal With RealD 9/11/2012

So what does this mean?

 

[RoboPlato]

So what does this mean?

More options for better 3D support on newer 3D TVs. RealD is trying to get cinema style 3D (lighter/cheaper glasses) in home without having the huge resolution hit like it currently has on sets that support it. I don't know if anyone is implementing it soon though. We'll probably hear a lot about it at CES.

 

[Raistlin]

More options for better 3D support on newer 3D TVs. RealD is trying to get cinema style 3D (lighter/cheaper glasses) in home without having the huge resolution hit like it currently has on sets that support it. I don't know if anyone is implementing it soon though. We'll probably hear a lot about it at CES.

Yeah I believe it was Samsung that backed out. There were supposed to be displays at last CES but they killed the deal a bit before.



While RealD does not have the resolution penalty, it does however use shuttering ... it's just on the TV instead of the glasses. It remains to be seen what sort of implications that can have. Competition is good, so I hope they get a deal with someone. However I'm looking more forward to LG-based passive tech in 4K displays.

 

[androvsky]

Oh, funny story. I was reading a review on anandtech of the new nvidia 660, and the reviewer was shocked to see samsung gddr5 ram modules on a card, since every card maker for both nvidia and amd uses a different manufacturer (Hynix). The reviewer was relieved to discover there's more than one gddr5 maker.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Oh, funny story. I was reading a review on anandtech of the new nvidia 660, and the reviewer was shocked to see samsung gddr5 ram modules on a card, since every card maker for both nvidia and amd uses a different manufacturer (Hynix). The reviewer was relieved to discover there's more than one gddr5 maker.

Yeah, it is sorta funny. In the short term (next two years) there is no other choice but GDDR5 for high performance GPU cards; lots of GDDR5 will be sold. Beyond 2 years it looks like stacked memory with ultra wide I/O will be cheaper, faster and use less power. Typical lead times to produce a new memory are about 1-2 years so any work on GDDR5 to improve it's performance would come on the market at the same time stacked memory would become cost effective. The SimiAccurate article stating insiders have Samsung not investing in R&D for GDDR5 make sense.

If the PS4 and Xbox 720 (September 2013 & DDR4 will be available in quantity) are going to be a ONE SoC design (game CPU-GPU) not SoC + GPU then the two Jaguar 1 SoC leaks are probably accurate, it will be as leaked by others as a 1.8+ Tflop SoC using the memory in the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint and the leaks that know the Sony-AMD project name "Thebe(s)" or DDR4. Since DDR4 is low drive power and slower than DDR3 there has to be a large L3 cache in the SoC and/or a wide memory buss. The Chart in the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint has a larger than 30 meg L3 cache and a DDR4 128 bit buss; 128 bit wide is I think too narrow.

This makes sense as GDDR5 requires too much drive power and would add significantly to the TDP of a SoC. Over the life of the PS4 and Xbox 720 SoC, DDR4 will be cheaper.

If the rumor of a BEAST (expensive) game console is accurate then putting all that in 1 SoC is I think not possible so we could see both DDR4 and GDDR5 being used in the short term with a major refresh in 2-3 years with everything in one SoC at 20nm or below using DDR4 3D stacked memory rather than DDR4 2.5D.

Sony's not redesigning the PS3 ultraslim to be cost effective against the Xbox 360 seems to point to a inexpensive PS4 taking the price point place of the PS3. This supports the one SoC leaks not the Beast SoC + GPU rumors.

I think this also answers kagemaru.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Oh, funny story. I was reading a review on anandtech of the new nvidia 660, and the reviewer was shocked to see samsung gddr5 ram modules on a card, since every card maker for both nvidia and amd uses a different manufacturer (Hynix). The reviewer was relieved to discover there's more than one gddr5 maker.

Really? What about elphida? Thats pretty basic knowledge for this type of discussion. Also, im still waiting on this proof that GDDR5 is to power-hungry for a console.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Back in June, during the AFDS 2012 held in Bellevue, WA, AMD held a press conference announcing the formation of Heterogeneous System Architecture Foundation (HSA Foundation).

The founding members were AMD, ARM, Imagination Technologies, MediaTek, Samsung Electronics and Texas Instruments. Over the past four months, membership more than doubled and the organization just announced its 13th member - Qualcomm Inc.

In what seems to be a major coup for the organization, Qualcomm Inc. is signing on with a top tier membership - Founder Member. This announcement also means the HSA Foundation brings together the majority of SoC vendors under one roof. According to our conversation with Phil Rogers, Corporate Fellow at AMD and President of HSA Foundation, the goal is very simple - to create a software framework that enables maximum utilization of SoC processing elements such as the CPU and GPU.

AMD and Oracle to Explore Heterogeneous Computing for Java

During the JavaOne 2012 Strategy Keynote, AMD announced its participation in OpenJDK Project "Sumatra" in collaboration with Oracle and other members of the OpenJDK community to help bring heterogeneous computing capabilities to Java for server and cloud environments.

The OpenJDK Project "Sumatra" will explore how the Java Virtual Machine (JVM), as well as the Java language and APIs, might be enhanced to allow applications to take advantage of graphics processing unit (GPU) acceleration, either in discrete graphics cards or in high-performance graphics processor cores such as those found in AMD accelerated processing units (APUs).

As emerging server and cloud platforms tap into the heterogeneous compute capabilities of APUs and discrete GPUs to achieve enhanced power/performance capabilities, developers are requiring mainstream programming models such as Java to help them harness the advantages of GPU acceleration. Project "Sumatra" may also provide guidance on enabling heterogeneous compute support for other JVM-based languages such as Scala, JRuby and Jython.

"Affirming our plans to contribute to the OpenJDK Project represents the next step towards bringing heterogeneous computing to millions of Java developers and can potentially lead to future developments of new hardware models, as well as server and cloud programming paradigms," said Manju Hegde, corporate vice president, Heterogeneous Applications and Developer Solutions at AMD. "AMD has an established track record of collaboration with open-software development communities from OpenCL™ to the Heterogeneous System Architecture (HSA) Foundation, and with this initiative we will help further the development of graphics acceleration within the Java community."

 

[jeff_rigby]

Really? What about elphida? Thats pretty basic knowledge for this type of discussion. Also, im still waiting on this proof that GDDR5 is to power-hungry for a console.

It's too early to provide "proof". If it's a one SoC design then TDP (waste heat) is a limiting factor....right? Memory Drive voltage swing over any distance massively impacts TDP (memory controller is in the SoC). This was the point stressed in the PDF I referenced (page 6). Even reducing Drive current is not enough; to keep TDP down moving data around in memory is reduced as much as possible with techniques like Zero Copy. L3 is used as much as possible rather than memory outside the Soc (more distance more drive current needed).

Low Drive Power DDR3 (LP-DDR3) was in the example SoC (above referenced PDF) and it may also be clocked much slower but if it's ultra-wide I/O (512 bit buss) it has the transfer speed necessary but uses much less power. A console does not have battery issues but if one SoC does need to manage TDP thus Jaguar low power CPUs clocked at 1.6 Ghz not 3.2 and DDR4 not DDR3 or GDDR5 which require higher drive currents.

Sure GDDR5 could be used and the GPU could be clocked 5% slower to provide the TDP reserve the Memory controller would then use. Or desktop CPUs could be used at 3.2 Ghz and the GPU could be clocked 30% slower to make up for that TDP.....see the point?

GDDR5 is hot, the most efficient design has memory as close as possible to the CPU-GPU SoC which causes the heat from GDDR5 memory to be an issue adding to the environment (heat) that the SoC has to live in. Believe it or not, the motherboard is also a potential heat sink but if that mother board is heated by GDDR5 memory sitting close to a SoC, it adds to the waste heat the SoC generates. So drop the GPU clock even further.

None of the above is "Proof", it's just what AMD has to deal with and is mentioned by both Nvidia and AMD as the MAJOR concern when designing GPU or SoCs. It's in the PDF above and in previous PDFs I've posted from Nvidia lectures at Khronos meetings. AMD libraries to be used with AMD hardware already attempt to keep data movement in memory as low as possible.

Educating programmers to properly use HSA designs increases performance efficiency and reduces waste heat. "AMD is betting the farm on HSA" requires a large pool of programmers following HSA rules to get the most out of AMD HSA designs. Intel designs use lower Die size and other internal and compiler features to make their designs efficient. AMD can not compete with Intel unless programmers use AMD (GP GPUs) as compute units which is what HSA is all about.

My previous post is about AMD working with as many companies as possible (Including Oracle (Java)) to make using GPUs and other types of CPUs (FPGA, DSP, CPU, GPU) as easy and transparent as possible with "automatic context switching" to use the most efficient processor for a particular job. A GPU can be 20 times and a FPGA can be 100 times more efficient at a certain task than a CPU. Then there are some tasks at which a CPU is most efficient.

 

[Canis lupus]

Is it likely that we'll see Linux back in the PS4? I would really like such desktop environment with a better and faster console, it wasn't worth it on the PS3.

 

[specialguy]

next gen rumors sure are getting slow...and wii u stuff seems in a dry spell too, with the next sure info being when it actually launches and teardowns happen, in a month or so.

also seems like a lot of interest has been lost in wii u tech over the past few weeks as it's now grudgingly accepted by most it's just not that powerful.

for durango and orbis, hard to even say when the news might pick up again. the vga's? then again, e3 looms before too long.

 

[dragonelite]

Is it likely that we'll see Linux back in the PS4? I would really like such desktop environment with a better and faster console, it wasn't worth it on the PS3.

Did you have access to all the hardware in linux.
I heard you could only access the cell within otherOs.

Linux Support could guarantee a day one from me.
Just as the next xbox if it supports XNA or WINRT.

 

[DieH@rd]

for durango and orbis, hard to even say when the news might pick up again. the vga's? then again, e3 looms before too long.

There will be rumblings at next GDC [March].

 

[jeff_rigby]

Is it likely that we'll see Linux back in the PS4? I would really like such desktop environment with a better and faster console, it wasn't worth it on the PS3.

Yes according to one "rumor" as a "other OS". (Remember Sony removed "Other OS support" at firmware 3.0 on the Slim and 3.21 on the Fat.) It's supposed to be a custom kernel version (Wayland back end?) and I suspect it will fully support HSA and have full access to the GPU. That's a guess though....don't know enough about the security issues and how the ARM A5 Trustzone processor impacts this.

Supporting this is AMD building a Full HSA Linux kernel using their hardware of course. This means Sony has to do nothing to port it to a PS4. The rumor also had a version for the PS3...that's not going to be supported by AMD but if Sony uses OpenCL (IBM has OpenCL libraries for Cell) it might be similar to the PS4 kernel in design (based on OpenCL and HSA rules as much as possible for the PS3). Also page 30 in the AMD HSA PDF

PS4 "Custom Kernel Linux" and the PS4 having 16 gigs of NAND memory might mean nearly instant "Other OS" booting/switching between PS4/Game/OtherOS Linux.

Edit: Another point, according to AMD, any program written following the HSA foundation rules and then run on a platform with an OS supporting HSA rules is supposed to run without recompile. Not included in HSA is the UI so some provision for this is needed and all appear to be moving to a XML or HTML UI. Library routines called also must match.

Really good easy to read article on the HSA Foundation. June article that is dated only because it mentions Qualcomm needs to be a part of the HSA foundation and it's just been announced that Qualcomm is now part of the HSA foundation.

 

[RoboPlato]

There will be rumblings at next GDC [March].

I think we may hear something, at least out of Microsoft with the drying out 360 release schedule, before GDC since they don't attend it. Announcing it at its own event would get it more coverage and allow devs to openly talk about it at GDC, which would be nice for MS if they can't talk about the PS4 yet.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I think we may hear something, at least out of Microsoft with the drying out 360 release schedule, before GDC since they don't attend it. Announcing it at its own event would get it more coverage and allow devs to openly talk about it at GDC, which would be nice for MS if they can't talk about the PS4 yet.

Good point!

 

[dragonelite]

next gen rumors sure are getting slow...and wii u stuff seems in a dry spell too, with the next sure info being when it actually launches and teardowns happen, in a month or so.

also seems like a lot of interest has been lost in wii u tech over the past few weeks as it's now grudgingly accepted by most it's just not that powerful.

for durango and orbis, hard to even say when the news might pick up again. the vga's? then again, e3 looms before too long.

My guess would be.

VGA = Demo reel of next gen games or teaser for E3
GDC = presentations for next gen techniques think Cone tracing,Ray tracing and GPU Compute physics with codenames for games. If we are lucky Hardware specs or leaks

E3 = Full Blown reveal with stage demos.

 

[Donnie]

next gen rumors sure are getting slow...and wii u stuff seems in a dry spell too, with the next sure info being when it actually launches and teardowns happen, in a month or so.

also seems like a lot of interest has been lost in wii u tech over the past few weeks as it's now grudgingly accepted by most it's just not that powerful.

for durango and orbis, hard to even say when the news might pick up again. the vga's? then again, e3 looms before too long.

There's no WiiU tech discussion because there's been no WiiU tech news and people can only talk about the same thing over and over for so long.

Considering there's been no new discussion I think you're assumption that people have somehow accepted some new idea of WiiU's hardware is based far more on your own views of WiiU than reality.

 

[jeff_rigby]

There is not alot of information other than Leaks (who to believe) and what we think are Microsoft and Sony plans to capture the living room.

This is a link to a 2001 study on what's coming as well as some cites from that study to interest others to read the study.

The coming together of the broadcast industry (TV programmes), the entertainment industry (movies, games) and the Internet (World Wide Web, email, chatting and e-commerce, or t-commerce as it is referred to in the context of television) creates an enormous momentum or the development of new content and new services.

All analyses are intended to contribute to a better description and understanding of the four main terms of this study: webTV, enhanced TV, interactive TV and personal TV

Digital television is a technology of encoding audio, video and data into digital format, the transmission of the signal and the receiving and decoding of that digital signal. Digital television ensures better image and sound quality and is an enabler for new services.

WebTV is a service by which Internet can be disclosed and used on a television set.
Enhanced television refers to the enrichment of programs with additional information. Examples are for instance statistics during a match at Wimbledon or the choice of a different camera angle. This extra information is shown by for instance making the main broadcast into a so called 'quarter screen'.

Interactive television refers to the enrichment of programs with additional information thereby making use of direct feedback from the consumer. Examples are for instance ordering a cookbook during a cookery show by pressing a code on your remote control, or voting during a game show by using your remote control.

Personal television refers to the concept of watching television programmes at any given moment as chosen by the individual, which is also referred to as ‘time shifting’. Examples are watching the 8 o’clock news at 8:34 or pausing live broadcasting and continue watching for instance a few minutes later where you left off. In a broader sense personal TV refers to the concept of television viewing behaviour tailored to a person based on preferences and earlier viewing behaviour.

The importance of adopting industry standards is recognised by the set-top box community. It enables set-top developers to port applications to all of the currently available different operating systems and leads therefore to lower overall set-top deployment costs.

The DVB initiative is named Multimedia Home Platform, or MHP (www.mhp.org). This standard is a set of Java-based application programming interfaces being tandardised for the digital broadcast of multimedia and applications in Europe, Asia, and other regions.

Implemented in set-top boxes it enables the reception and presentation of applications in a
vendor and broadcaster neutral framework. The MHP API consists actually of a series of APIs dealing with more procedural functions to access low-level procedural functions, or more declarative functions to interpret application functions.

A similar solution as MHP is reached by a subcommittee of the ATSC, named T3/S17. They developed a reference architecture called the DTV Application Software Environment (DASE), which support broadcast environments and a variety of open Web standards. The reference architecture is comprised of a virtual machine for set-top applications and a presentation engine. The Personal Java Virtual Machine was selected as the application virtual machine for all DASE compliant set-top boxes. For the presentation engine a Broadcast HTML (BHTML) is proposed. According to the DASE specification a web browser is not required to view BHTML content, reducing the memory and processing requirements of the set-top box.

The focus of the ATVEF is on leveraging existing Internet standards (HTML 4.0, CSS1, ECMAscript, DOM) to deliver an enhanced TV experience, in order to make content production for digital television less expensive and more convenient for consumers. The alliance - comprising of among others Microsoft, Intel, Disney, NBC, Cablelabs, DirecTV, Sony and Warner Bros – defined protocols for HTML-based television, which allow content creators to deliver enhanced programming over all forms of transport (analogue, digital, cable, MMDS, and satellite) to any intelligent receivers. The ATVEF group has created a specification, called Advanced Television Enhancement Forum pecifications for Interactive Television 1.1. It describes guidelines for developing content and distributing to a variety of access devices, among them digital set-top boxes.


Home Media Servers

The set-top box and its brother-in-arms the PDR can be seen as paving the way for a central hub, portal or gateway for all communications in the home environment:

“Technology is erasing the boundaries of televisions, telephones and computers. The
cable box on your TV will not only let you order all the PPV movies you want, but it
will be a virtual communications centre.” (C. Michael Armstrong, chairman of AT&T, at
the 1999 Internet World Conference, quoted from Swann, 2000, p. 103)

And

“You’ll see set-tops with hard drives for storing operating software, entertainment, and
games. It will be the wireless link for telephone handsets and devices for home
shopping and transmission of video to a second TV set. If a person doesn’t have a
PC, the most powerful device now in the home is the set-top.” (Gary Osborne, head of
corporate development at Pace, quoted from Dunn, 2001).

The concept of interconnecting electronic devices within a residential home seems the next logical step. It allows consumers to share files between family members, share the use of expensive peripheral devices such as colour printers and DVD players, and play multi-user games.

Within the context of the TV Anytime Framework it is also recognised that consumers can have a PDR as a personal 'local' storage device in their living room but can add removable
media as external storage to the home hub (see Figure 22).34 They can also carry a portable device with storage media, or they can access personal storage at the head-end of a service provider. Therefore, storage is not necessarily inside the home, but can reside in a service provider's facility.35 Since stored data can include a wide variety of content, such as video, audio, web pages, and consumer preference profiles and content access history, data storage can be accomplished through multiple mechanisms. Therefore inside the home, three kinds of functions are assumed:

1. Intelligent hub or gateway, with a receiving capability for digital content
2. Data storage
3. Display screen.

These functions can be supplied by individual devices, like STBs and PDRs, or by a console like an ‘integrated TV’, to create a single system. Figure 22 provides an overview of how 'persistent' storage can exist on a variety of devices and the relationship between those devices in a simple network. Each device can be implemented by different components:

PDR----->PC, STB, Games Console, DVR, a part of the TV
Home Hub------->PC, Server, STB, a part of the TV
Screen------->TV, PC, Projector, Hand-held, Console screen
Headend (remote storage)------->Server, Digital Cable Server, DSL Server
Multiple Networks------->
Broadcast systems, DTT, Digital Cable, Digital Satellite, Analogue transmission
Portable playback/record device------>'MP3 player', Laptop, Camcorder
Removable Media------->DVD, CD ROM, Jazz/Zip, External HD, Smart Card, Flash ROM, RAM
Online Mobile Device-------->Mobile phones, WAP, UMTS, GPRS, Bluetooth

This large and thorough paper outlines the global view on what was thought to be coming for XTV and is echoed in Sony Whitepapers and the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint. The PS3 design appears to support XTV (Java, XML, XHTML, Mpeg, h.264); 1080P, Gigabit network port and hard disk. In addition it has a web browser and Video conferencing. This plus blu-ray inflated the PS3 costs compared to the original Xbox. Microsoft's Xbox 361 will have 1080P, HDMI pass-thru, web browser and Skype to support XTV.

The h.264 & h.265 + 4K broadcast (cable and Satellite to support first) ATSC 2.0 are bringing a massive number of new features for 1080P TVs. ATSC 2.0 is now starting to be implemented. First part now seen locally in the US (Behind Europe with DVB) for over the air is non real time transmission (NRT). Then comes 1080P and 3-D using h.264 (by first quarter 2013) which cable and Satellite already support.

ATSC 2.0 descriptions and example screen shots (includes game Page 27 & 28) Also see another onQ123 thread on a Sony patent about playing games during commercials. OnQ123 should put those NBC examples on the OP.

National Association of Broadcasters Powerpoint on Next Generation TV

National Association of Broadcasters on ATSC 3 (we are currently ATSC 2.0 but some of the ATSC 3.0 features are coming soon to ATSC 2.0)

Modern Smart TVs can receive and use ATSC 2.0 but most of the 1080P TVs and older 720P/1080i do not have the ability to support the h.264 codec. My best guess is Sony with their DVRs and Microsoft supporting HD Home Run tuners will support Xbox 361 and PS3 becoming a set top box to support ATSC 2.0. Next generation Xbox 720 and PS4 can do the same with ATSC 3.0 and downscale 4K broadcasts.

Besides supporting a 1080P or 4K screen the standards can be used to stream 8-16 video channels over one 6 Mhz wide RF channel. Multiple monitors to support a game is also possible.

It looks like Sony designed the PS3 to support hbbTV DVB and ATSC 2.0 XTV, that this was the long range plan. PS4 will build on that using h.265 (4K blu-ray and Sony Media Fusion) and new HDMI port standards.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Largest option buying in equities so far

Advanced Micro Devices (AMD): More than 11,000 March 3 calls were purchased, mostly for $0.46 to $0.50, as investors look for the chip maker to rally. AMD rose 1.75 percent to $3.21.

Could this mean AMD or (Sony Microsoft) will OFFICIALLY announce that AMD won one or both next generation game consoles March 2013? Production according to SimiAccurate is supposed to start Dec 2012 with Beta platforms to developers about March and yields tests should be done by then also.

Edit: And then a few hours later AMD stock crashes as AMD earnings are downgraded for the current quarter. This 2+ year lead time till PS4 and Xbox 720 are released must impact AMD revenue also. So everyone is taking a bath waiting for next generation...when does the AMD revenue stream start from next generation...when it goes into mass production (Dec 2012) or when they start selling (Sept 2013)?

This seasons game revenue is projected by "News types" to be low, "the only thing that can help is a new generation console".

It looks like AMD "betting the farm on HSA" is going to start paying back after 2014-2015. Cloud server farms for Gaikai type video served games for handhelds is going to start paying back earlier (AMD purchased SeaMicro, a company that makes the hardware for Cloud serving and AMD APUs are well suited for this) as everyone has to ramp up support which according to the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint is starting for Microsoft in 2015.

Currently AMD's SeaMicro uses Intel Atom CPUs and AMD has Jaguar fusion APUs which are more efficient and can be used in SeaMicro cloud servers. Interesting that the PS4, Xbox 720 and future Seamicro cloud servers will have similar core hardware. This Sony patent uses Cell and APUs interchangeably with optically connected (2nd generation HMC memory) Hybrid Memory Cube memory in a Cloud Server.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Just so everyone reads this edit to the above post I'll post it again:

It looks like AMD "betting the farm on HSA" is going to start paying back after 2014-2015. Cloud server farms for Gaikai type video served games for handhelds is going to start paying back earlier (AMD purchased SeaMicro, a company that makes the hardware for Cloud serving and AMD APUs are well suited for this) as everyone has to ramp up support which according to the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint is starting for Microsoft in 2015.

Currently AMD's SeaMicro uses Intel Atom CPUs and AMD has Jaguar fusion APUs which are more efficient and can be used in SeaMicro cloud servers. Interesting that the PS4, Xbox 720 and future Seamicro cloud servers will have similar core hardware. This Sony patent uses Cell and APUs interchangeably with optically connected (2nd generation HMC memory) Hybrid Memory Cube memory in a Cloud Server.


Sony Wants To Make a PS3 Move Controller That Gets Hot Or Cold

 

[Ashes]

Amd is in trouble no? Cutting a sizable chunk of their workforce.

 

[DieH@rd]

Amd is in trouble no? Cutting a sizable chunk of their workforce.

Yeah... shame. They are getting slaughered by Intel.

 

[aegies]

I think we may hear something, at least out of Microsoft with the drying out 360 release schedule, before GDC since they don't attend it. Announcing it at its own event would get it more coverage and allow devs to openly talk about it at GDC, which would be nice for MS if they can't talk about the PS4 yet.

Microsoft attends GDC. They won't have much of a presence at CES. And I'm hearing we'll learn more about Durango early next year, shortly after CES.

 

[androvsky]

Yes according to one "rumor" as a "other OS". (Remember Sony removed "Other OS support" when we got DTCP-IP.)

A minor point, but we got DTCP-IP with firmware 3.0, not 3.21.

 

[jeff_rigby]

A minor point, but we got DTCP-IP with firmware 3.0, not 3.21.

Your correct. Firmware 3.0 was the total rewrite putting us on the IPTV road.

 

[funkystudent]

I still don't see this coming out next year.


Looking at all the Durango leaks and info we have a pretty solid idea whats going on with that system but for the PS4 as far as I can tell since the Orbis leak earlier in the year its just been speculation and guess work and no new info has really come out.


I just see that there just isn't much talk about ps4/Orbis out there. I guess sony still hasn't shipped dev kits to lower tier studios yet and its still something only select teams at the likes of EA and Rockstar and Activision have seen? Where as MS has probably shipped Durango kits to any studio worth a damn already.

 

[onQ123]

Just so everyone reads this edit to the above post I'll post it again:

It looks like AMD "betting the farm on HSA" is going to start paying back after 2014-2015. Cloud server farms for Gaikai type video served games for handhelds is going to start paying back earlier (AMD purchased SeaMicro, a company that makes the hardware for Cloud serving and AMD APUs are well suited for this) as everyone has to ramp up support which according to the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint is starting for Microsoft in 2015.

Currently AMD's SeaMicro uses Intel Atom CPUs and AMD has Jaguar fusion APUs which are more efficient and can be used in SeaMicro cloud servers. Interesting that the PS4, Xbox 720 and future Seamicro cloud servers will have similar core hardware. This Sony patent uses Cell and APUs interchangeably with optically connected (2nd generation HMC memory) Hybrid Memory Cube memory in a Cloud Server.


Sony Wants To Make a PS3 Move Controller That Gets Hot Or Cold

I found this a few days ago but no one notice since I can't make threads anymore there is also a patent for
TONGUE TRACKING

& Eye Gaze tracking

 

[phosphor112]

I still don't see this coming out next year.


Looking at all the Durango leaks and info we have a pretty solid idea whats going on with that system but for the PS4 as far as I can tell since the Orbis leak earlier in the year its just been speculation and guess work and no new info has really come out.


I just see that there just isn't much talk about ps4/Orbis out there. I guess sony still hasn't shipped dev kits to lower tier studios yet and its still something only select teams at the likes of EA and Rockstar and Activision have seen? Where as MS has probably shipped Durango kits to any studio worth a damn already.

I feel like onQ123, Jeff, and I, maybe BG as well? (idr) were thinking 2014 releases for the longest time.

 

[El_Chino]

Microsoft attends GDC. They won't have much of a presence at CES. And I'm hearing we'll learn more about Durango early next year, shortly after CES.

Great news!

 

[onQ123]

I feel like onQ123, Jeff, and I, maybe BG as well? (idr) were thinking 2014 releases for the longest time.

yeah as much as I love Tech I just don't feel like it's time for MS & Sony to bring out new consoles unless they are bringing something really good to the table & I don't see much happening in 2013.


unless the plan is to just release a better PS3 & Xbox 360 with a price that's around the price of PS3 & Xbox 360.


Nintendo's job of giving Wii owners sometime to upgrade from was easy because the Wii wasn't HD so just having Nintendo games in HD is a good upgrade to begin with. Sony & MS is going to have to bring something new to the table just to make people feel the need to upgrade from the PS3 & Xbox 360 . when I say people I'm not talking about the tech heads I'm talking about everyday people, & Sony & MS is going to need something that's marketable that's not just going to be a more powerful PS3\Xbox 360. & the Wii U don't seem to be doing much of a good job at making the PS3\Xbox 360 look bad so people will feel like they need new consoles.

hell the Next Gen demos didn't even do much of a job of making the PS3\Xbox 360 look bad.

 

[CorrisD]

I still don't see this coming out next year.


Looking at all the Durango leaks and info we have a pretty solid idea whats going on with that system but for the PS4 as far as I can tell since the Orbis leak earlier in the year its just been speculation and guess work and no new info has really come out.


I just see that there just isn't much talk about ps4/Orbis out there. I guess sony still hasn't shipped dev kits to lower tier studios yet and its still something only select teams at the likes of EA and Rockstar and Activision have seen? Where as MS has probably shipped Durango kits to any studio worth a damn already.

It could just be that for the first time in history Sony has managed to keep this stuff a secret, i mean there is a first for everything, lol.

 

[bgassassin]

I feel like onQ123, Jeff, and I, maybe BG as well? (idr) were thinking 2014 releases for the longest time.

Nah. 2013 for me.

 

[phosphor112]

Nah. 2013 for me.

I think there was one other person, but I don't remember who. =S

 

[Sid]

I think there was one other person, but I don't remember who. =S

Thuway.

 

[funkystudent]

It could just be that for the first time in history Sony has managed to keep this stuff a secret, i mean there is a first for everything, lol.

Yeah that's a option but come on. lol.

I just think dev kits are not in many studios hands yet which probably means Sony isnt planning on launching in the next 18 months.

Most leaks come from random 3rd party studios who cant keep a secret for the life of them and I guess PS4 kits are still limited to 1st party studios and select 3rd party studios like the larger mega studios like EA Tiburon, Ubi Montreal and Epic. The kind of places someone couldn't sneak a dev kit out of to sell on eBay.

Once dev kits start hitting studios lower on the chain we will start seeing leaks every few weeks like we are with Durango right now.

 

[onQ123]

I think they will come in 2013 but feel 2014 - 2015 is a better time for them.

 

[bgassassin]

I think they will come in 2013 but feel 2014 - 2015 is a better time for them.

2014 and after is definitely a better time, but could they make it that long?

 

[Meelow]

Yeah that's a option but come on. lol.

I just think dev kits are not in many studios hands yet which probably means Sony isnt planning on launching in the next 18 months.

Most leaks come from random 3rd party studios who cant keep a secret for the life of them and I guess PS4 kits are still limited to 1st party studios and select 3rd party studios like the larger mega studios like EA Tiburon, Ubi Montreal and Epic. The kind of places someone couldn't sneak a dev kit out of to sell on eBay.

Once dev kits start hitting studios lower on the chain we will start seeing leaks every few weeks like we are with Durango right now.

Probably, smaller companies leak stuff much easier, example when the one guy leaked the updated Wii U gamepad.

 

[onQ123]

2014 and after is definitely a better time, but could they make it that long?

unless someone else jumps in Sony & MS could easily ride out 2013


Wii U will probably only have a few better ports that will make PS3\Xbox 360 envy over the next year but not enough to push people over the edge when they know that the new consoles are coming soon. the sells that they lose to Wii U are mostly going to be sells that they was going to lose anyway even if they come out with new consoles in 2013.

Sony & MS are not even trying to hold a shadow over the Wii U right now because they know that shadow will also be over the PS3 & Xbox 360 so they are staying quiet as long as possible about Next Gen consoles.

 

[aegies]

unless someone else jumps in Sony & MS could easily ride out 2013


Wii U will probably only have a few better ports that will make PS3\Xbox 360 envy over the next year but not enough to push people over the edge when they know that the new consoles are coming soon. the sells that they lose to Wii U are mostly going to be sells that they was going to lose anyway even if they come out with new consoles in 2013.

Sony & MS are not even trying to hold a shadow over the Wii U right now because they know that shadow will also be over the PS3 & Xbox 360 so they are staying quiet as long as possible about Next Gen consoles.

Third parties do not feel that they can go another year without another console. They're already pissed off there's not a new Xbox this year.

 

[onQ123]

Third parties do not feel that they can go another year without another console. They're already pissed off there's not a new Xbox this year.

Oh Really?

I don't think EA has much to complain about Madden & Fifa just sold a boat load of units.

Capcom should be happy with RE6 sales.


Call of Duty is going to mop up next month just like it's been doing every year.

 

[aegies]

Oh Really?

I don't think EA has much to complain about Madden & Fifa just sold a boat load of units.

Capcom should be happy with RE6 sales.


Call of Duty is going to mop up next month just like it's been doing every year.

The big publishers had plans in motion for a new Xbox launch this year.

 

[AkIRA_22]

The big publishers had plans in motion for a new Xbox launch this year.

Oh Really?

I don't think EA has much to complain about Madden & Fifa just sold a boat load of units.

Capcom should be happy with RE6 sales.


Call of Duty is going to mop up next month just like it's been doing every year.

That's a handful of games (COD may as well be it's own platform), I think the wider consensus at EA, Activision, Ubisoft, THQ et al is they have games in development for next gen, and they want to release them. I assume many are deep into development (Watch dogs is just the one we know about). Modern game publishing returns being the way they are, they develop financial projections etc based on game releases. In turn, investors base their outlook and investment based on these projections. No one on that end of the industry is happy.

The devs feel the pinch as the publisher backs off funding because they can't just give endless money while they wait. On our end the game probably ends up better as it has had a long dev cycle. But there will be a heavy cost to developers. Lay-offs, lots of them, because it's cost the publisher so damn much as they "sit" on these games waiting for the Hardware people to get their shit in one sock. It's going to be an ugly 12 months, games aren't selling what they need to this deep into a cycle. The only people not feeling the pinch as hard are Sony 1st party and 343... not many at all.

 

[McHuj]

The big publishers had plans in motion for a new Xbox launch this year.

I think the fact that this year's holiday lineup is so week is good evidence of that.

I hope that the extra time that the publishers had will translate to a stronger launch line up in 2013.

Fuck I can't wait, it's been too damn long.

 

[Meelow]

Third parties do not feel that they can go another year without another console. They're already pissed off there's not a new Xbox this year.

I guess Wii U doesn't exist? Or are you just talking about Xbox.