There's "not so powerful" and there's "can barely keep up with consoles fom 2005."
Why am I getting involved in this thread?
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Wii U has 2GB of DDR3 RAM, [Up: RAM 43% slower than 360/PS3 RAM]
- Thread starter Horse Armour
- Start date
There's "not so powerful" and there's "can barely keep up with consoles fom 2005."
Why am I getting involved in this thread?
papersleeves
Member
What a gem.
It don't have GDDR3 it's DDR3 which is slower than GDDR3. But in my opinion it doesn't matter than much since only 1GB of memory will be used for games and because of that games won't use very high quality assets (todays PC standard). If it won't use high quality assets then there is no point of using superfast ram.
And people say that by looking at the RAM? Won't the next PS/Xbox use the same off the shelf RAM? Will Sony use the expensive Rambus again? I haven't been following about that too much. Only that Sony is going with AMD and MS with Intel/Nvidia.
brain_stew
Member
Lower latency and a larger memory pool at a given cost level. Bandwidth wasn't a priority because of the existence of eDRAM presumably. If the eDRAM pool works as assumed (with flexible, low latency access from both the CPU and GPU) then having "only" ~15GB of main memory bandwidth shouldn't be as big a concern as some are making out. It does however mean that simple rushed port jobs are going to lead to bad results on Wii U, which is exactly what we are seeing.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Reports of slower/underclocked CPU and now this is kind of two strikes alongside other hard to swallow shit like region locking. Nobody expected this box to be cutting edge, but I didn't expect multiple aspects of its hardware to be behind a 2005 box release. Hopefully Bayonetta 2 will be post a price-cut so it isn't quite the bitter pricetag its sitting at currently.
I'm aware that gDDR3 isn't lower latency clock for clock. I was talking about 360's memory vs WiiU and saying that while its higher bandwidth it should be also higher latency. Though if you're correct then not by as much as I thought. Where specifically does you're info come from?
I was looking at this document: http://www.samsung.com/us/business/oem-solutions/pdfs/PSG_1H_2012.pdf
And it seemed to indicate in the table that features WiiU's chip that gDDR3 and GDDR3 latencies are fairly similar at the same clock speeds.
What do you mean with underclocked? Like with the PSP? And how fast is it running at?
lwilliams3
Member
I was looking forward to your analysis. Where have you been?
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-u-with-the-developer-of-a-wii-u-launch-title
and I seem to recall there was a similar anonymous rumbling or two on the same topic to boot.
Oh, I'm sorry. Is that a feature now? For me personally I was rationalising why stuff such as the RAM, CPU, and region lock is a three strike "goddamit". I'll be buying a Wii U eventually for Bayonetta 2, just hopefully at a more palatable price down the road which will better reflect its middling innards. I'd say defending region locking would be more agenda indicating there!
Not sure if serious. GTA4 is CPU hog not GPU. When this generation started consoles CPUs were leaps and beyond above what was avabile for consumer PC market. Cell alone was faster than anything in 2008 and 2009. Xbox 3 core PPU wasn't to slow either.
It was bad optimalization because they didn't use GPU as much as CPU because of different architecture of PC (weak CPU)
As i said CPU power doesn't have anything with texture size or ram pool and i don't see it being any constructive comment in ram talk.
lostinblue
Banned
CPU power for this gen was ridiculously bad in integer/dhrystones/general purpose (the things the CPU really is there for).
That and they were simplified, had a pipeline with 32 stages which introduces extra latency and cache miss.
Seriously.
CELL was a beast at floating point for a CPU, because no manufacturer was aiming for something like that; only IBM super computer farms and machines meant for folding were requiring that kind of GFlop power on a CPU for something that's not for graphics (because using a CPU for graphics really doesn't make much sense). General purpose though... Cell's PPE is worse than a PowerPC G4 at 1.4 GHz (and the SPE's are more like FPU's/vector units/whatever).
Ah that, I do remember that. But it's Koei and after 6-7 years they still haven't figured out the Cell and Xenon.....even so, the Wii U is still a new architecture and more similar with PC's using out of order execution. We really need to wait and see what Nintendo and third party exclusives can come up with, before declaring it to be slower than a 2005 console.
No, you're wrong (and unnecessarily rude).
This is what Crytek guys have to say about the "tesselated water" issue:
Cry-Styves said:
Cry-Adam said:
Source:
http://www.crydev.net/viewtopic.php?f=355&t=80565
DDR3 isn't necessarily slower than GDDR3. GDDR3 is specially tuned for gaming, but it's based on the older DDR2 standard. GDDR5 on the other hand is DDR3 but specially tuned for gaming.
the point is, even 6 year old consoles that have less memory than the Wii U have higher bandwidth than the Wii U. the difference between the Wii U and the other next-gen consoles could be similar to a generational leap in terms of memory bandwidth.
StrangeADT
Banned
Oh shit, my assumption was (partially) right. Looks like they tesselate the mesh before any culling operations which actually makes sense to me now. Makes sense not to cull in wireframe mode for debugging purposes also. Interesting and a lot more clear now. Thank you Cuth.
Really?, how much bandwidth does WiiU's eDRAM have in comparison to 360 and PS3 then? Also XBox3 and PS4 are looking pretty likely to go with lots of DDR3, I don't know what you consider a generational leap but I don't see DDR3 achieving what I'd call a generational leap in bandwidth.
Nightbringer
Don´t hit me for my bad english plase
Internally you have a 128 bits bus divided into two memory controllers of 64 bits each, the first one is related to the 32MB eDRAM, the second one for the main RAM of the system.
Please educate me about the consequences. What does it tell us? (in regard to performance, AA, etc.)
That's a bit overstatement on your part. I'm no CPU expert but devs managed to use Spus of Cell for a lot of things and only thanks to their raw power we saw games like Killzone 2, Uncharted 3 or God of War 3.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Games so far say otherwise.
I meant for Wii U. Wii U DD3 is slower than GDDR3 in Xbox360...
I know that DDR3 is newer architecture.
Where's this info come from?
Proelite
Member
The same ram can be much faster because of higher clocks and bigger buses.
In addition, the 720 is aiming to use DDR4.
Comandr
Member
So, this is Nintendo's first HD system, and a console very similar to the DS.
The same DS that underwent a number of revisions, not only changing the design and functionality, but its capability, dramatically (on a miniature scale.)
Nintendo DS (Fat Nov. 21 2004)
Storage
Internal storage Yes
Storage capacity 0.25 MB
Hardware
CPU speed 67 MHz
Video RAM 656 KB
System RAM 4 MB
Nintendo DS Lite (June 11 2006)
Storage
Internal storage Yes
Storage capacity 4 MB
Hardware
CPU speed 67 MHz
System RAM 4 MB
Nintendo DSi (April 5, 2009)
Storage
Internal storage Yes
Storage capacity 256 MB
Memory card support Yes
Memory card support SD (SDHC)
Hardware
CPU speed 133 MHz
System RAM 16 MB
Nintendo 3DS (March 27, 2011)
Storage
Internal storage Yes
Memory card support Yes
Memory card support SD (SDHC)
Hardware
CPU speed 266 MHz
GPU speed 133 MHz
Video RAM 4 MB
System RAM 64 MB
Internal ROM 1536 MB
Between November 2004, and April 2009, a period of just four and a half years, Nintendo released 3 versions of the DS, each one more capable than the last, and by the last model, on board RAM had quadrupled and processing speed had doubled; it was also much, much more feature rich than the original DS.
I have included the 3DS to illustrate the evolution of that design and what it meant for specs.
***
Moral of the story is: Somewhere after launching the DS -- maybe pressure from the PSP -- Nintendo realized that the product they delivered wasn't enough, and they kept redesigning it to deliver a more complete package. What I'm saying is -- before everyone goes and declares that the Wii U is doomed forever and Nintendo is now 3rd party, its entirely possible that a revision may happen down the line.
Perhaps Nintendo is testing the waters with this iteration of the console. "We'll make it quick and cheap to see what they think, and then change it accordingly to meet demand next time." It's not like consoles have never been revised before.
There were two (to my knowledge) versions of the SNES. Two or three types of Genesis, and then there was the Genesis-CDX Megabeast hybrid. Playstation and PSOne. PS2/Slim. PS3/Slim/SuperSlim. 360/Elite/S. Even the Wii, from what I recall, was changed somewhere down the line to not play Gamecube games any more.
For all the TL;DR's out there, let me say this: The Wii U hasn't even been out for 24 hours. Let's enjoy what it offers as much as we can, let's look forward to what the future holds, and trust that Nintendo (whether we believe it or not) may actually know what they're doing (even if we don't understand why the hell they're doing it.)
Before the Vita had come out, everyone was hailing it as the messiah and said it would crush the 3DS and save us all from inferior handheld tyranny. 47-to-1 sales don't sound like "Crushing" to me.
Maybe we should wait until the 720 and PS4 are actually announced and we can actually see them and play them and develop for them ourselves before we decide who is going third party.
The same DS that underwent a number of revisions, not only changing the design and functionality, but its capability, dramatically (on a miniature scale.)
Nintendo DS (Fat Nov. 21 2004)
Storage
Internal storage Yes
Storage capacity 0.25 MB
Hardware
CPU speed 67 MHz
Video RAM 656 KB
System RAM 4 MB
Nintendo DS Lite (June 11 2006)
Storage
Internal storage Yes
Storage capacity 4 MB
Hardware
CPU speed 67 MHz
System RAM 4 MB
Nintendo DSi (April 5, 2009)
Storage
Internal storage Yes
Storage capacity 256 MB
Memory card support Yes
Memory card support SD (SDHC)
Hardware
CPU speed 133 MHz
System RAM 16 MB
Nintendo 3DS (March 27, 2011)
Storage
Internal storage Yes
Memory card support Yes
Memory card support SD (SDHC)
Hardware
CPU speed 266 MHz
GPU speed 133 MHz
Video RAM 4 MB
System RAM 64 MB
Internal ROM 1536 MB
Between November 2004, and April 2009, a period of just four and a half years, Nintendo released 3 versions of the DS, each one more capable than the last, and by the last model, on board RAM had quadrupled and processing speed had doubled; it was also much, much more feature rich than the original DS.
I have included the 3DS to illustrate the evolution of that design and what it meant for specs.
***
Moral of the story is: Somewhere after launching the DS -- maybe pressure from the PSP -- Nintendo realized that the product they delivered wasn't enough, and they kept redesigning it to deliver a more complete package. What I'm saying is -- before everyone goes and declares that the Wii U is doomed forever and Nintendo is now 3rd party, its entirely possible that a revision may happen down the line.
Perhaps Nintendo is testing the waters with this iteration of the console. "We'll make it quick and cheap to see what they think, and then change it accordingly to meet demand next time." It's not like consoles have never been revised before.
There were two (to my knowledge) versions of the SNES. Two or three types of Genesis, and then there was the Genesis-CDX Megabeast hybrid. Playstation and PSOne. PS2/Slim. PS3/Slim/SuperSlim. 360/Elite/S. Even the Wii, from what I recall, was changed somewhere down the line to not play Gamecube games any more.
For all the TL;DR's out there, let me say this: The Wii U hasn't even been out for 24 hours. Let's enjoy what it offers as much as we can, let's look forward to what the future holds, and trust that Nintendo (whether we believe it or not) may actually know what they're doing (even if we don't understand why the hell they're doing it.)
Before the Vita had come out, everyone was hailing it as the messiah and said it would crush the 3DS and save us all from inferior handheld tyranny. 47-to-1 sales don't sound like "Crushing" to me.
Maybe we should wait until the 720 and PS4 are actually announced and we can actually see them and play them and develop for them ourselves before we decide who is going third party.
Phenom 2 here because AM2+ board. Running stock fan. Its fine. Also those 2 are like 2 processor generations apart, Phenom 2 came out in like 09
Calling region locking a "strike" when basically every console and handheld is region locked is silly. If that counts against the Wii U it counts equally against every other region locked system.
That's because those are first gen games and devs don't have much exprience with it. Because system is only slightly faster than PS360 it will take time to see game that is better looking than ps3 exclusives. Also it depend also on devs themselfs. If there will be a case like Xbox360 where there was only handfull of people who pushed system to the max chance is we won't see better looking games. But that is only assumtion
kurtrussell
Banned
Meh. Thing is likely to have outsold the Vita by Christmas - does RAM speed even matter in the grand scheme of things?
gamergirly
Member
Sometimes it's better to skip to the end. There tends to be overreaction until after Page 5....
Yes, because sales don't impact your enjoyment of the console. Technical performance does, in some cases, when the game is worse because of it.
It is ram discussion not sales discusion.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Nintendo can't improve the system in a way that will actually impact game performance, and that is what people are concerned about. Devs will always have to work with the lowest common denominator which is the WiiU that is available now, even if Nintendo does something in the future to change the capability of the system.
PSP2000 doubled the RAM of the 1000 model. But that extra RAM in the 2000 and all future revisions couldn't be used by devs because they had to make sure games were compatible with the PSP1000 systems. Edit: Same for the DS/DSi, that additional memory was for the OS and apps that the DS didn't have. Nintendo did allow for DSi exclusive retail games, but how many were there? Five maybe (guessing off the top of my head) Re:Edit: Yep, five.
Moral Panic
Member
What?
PS3 has 1 region locked game. Vita is region free. 360 leaves it up to the publisher whether to region lock or not. Nintendo DS is region free.
kurtrussell
Banned
More sales = more games. I think that's pretty darn important for enjoyment of a console.
Besides, I'm betting 99% of Wii U owners won't be anally comparing screenshots of third party games for blurry textures and jaggies or noticing minor slowdowns (which are more a sign of not getting to grips with a console rather than performance differences). A great third party title is a great third party title, irrespective of minor graphical glitches that bored fanboys hype up to extreme levels.
lostinblue
Banned
It's no overstatement I'm afraid.
Floating point can be useful, make no mistake, that's why CPU's have the FPU for; physics, mathematical code, sound processing, image processing if need be can really benefit from it, but most of the times devs just want a good old CPU so they can dump their code in there. For example you don't want to run AI on a CELL SPE, you can, it has been done, but it's only being done because you've run out of space on the CPU to do so. In a sense it's like trying to make a GPU crunch AI.
For most tasks they do, developers wish they were doing them on a regular CPU instead.
H_Prestige
Banned
PSP also has no region locked games.
crazy monkey
Banned
games do, not technical performance.
Of course gameplay is most important, but while sales don't affect it in any way, technical performance can do so. Not necessarily, but it's possible.
Pulling the typical "gameplay > graphics, specs don't matter" card? When the Wii U doesn't get 720/PS4 multiplats I'd like to see where the quality third-party games come from.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
So the 3DS and the Wii U then?
(Thankfully my Wii is hacked! Lets hope the U is too!)
Comandr
Member
From a games standpoint, I understand, but future revisions may be able to tweak stuff that open up new options. Look at all the content that has been shoehorned into the 360 since launch. The system is way more feature rich now than when it launched, even though I don't think anything really changed under the hood.
Looking at the DSi as an example, by increasing the onboard ram and processing speed, it opened up a whole new branch for the DS, being the DSi Shop and downloadable games. Granted, the core games being developed for play in the actual card slot were still based around the original technology, a more capable system allowed for a fuller, richer experience.
My point is, that that being said, it's not impossible to see something like that happening again.
For all we know, the Wii U will be out for 6 months and they'll pull an Apple with the iPad 3 & 4 and release the next version right away, and pretend the Wii U (v1) never happened, stop selling it, and perform exchanges for those that just purchased. (I don't foresee this.)
Love them or hate them, understand them or otherwise, Nintendo has been in the home entertainment business for almost 30 years. I firmly believe they will ride out the home console era.
lwilliams3
Member
Yes, and in either case the RAM was chosen due to balance and design. The Wii U is designed around taking advantage of eDRAM and unusual cache choices (asymmetric L1 caches for the CPU cores), which may not require the main RAM to have high speed to be an efficent memory system.
Yes but more sales ≠ more good games
look at the wii by your logic i should've been the console with an huge number of great games second only to ps2 and yet...
Believe it or not, there are degrees of region locking. A US PSP can play every Japanese game. A US PS3 can play every Japanese game outside of P4A. A US 360 can play most Japanese games. A US Wii U can play zero Japanese games.
This matters to people that want their console to be able to play as many of the platform's games as possible. Writing off region locking as no big deal because multiple platforms use it to different degrees is complete bullshit.