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Gears of War Judgement |OT| Brothers from the beginning, Bros till the end

smik

Member
Here are my thoughts on the design on Gears of War Judgment and the MP of the GOW franchise

Gears of War as a franchise has lost its own identity with Multiplayer

Its been 3 sequels/prequels and we finally have got back to this point,
Gears from a Multiplayer standpoint cannot stand its own success, We had the undeniable great success with GOW1,
the scummy dirty pits of GOW2 to the amazing resurgence of GOW3, Now we have Gears of War Judgement .
GOW3 came out with blazing success and offered all players new/casual/hardcore, the GOW3 beta provided crucial feedback
which EPIC took on board and hence we as a fanbase got to enjoy. GOW3 provided everything, a player from any kind could enjoy.

This bring us to GOWJ

Every fundamental that EPIC had been built up/perfected throughout the years from GOW1/2*/3 has been stript away and put to the weigh side,
everything the MP fans supported and fought for in GOW1-3 has been completely abolished and in return we have a Uncharted/Halo/COD knock off.
GOWJ's competitive Multiplayer (TDM,FFA,DOM) doesn't not flow right or have any resemblance from previous titles, it completely removes itself away
from any of the fundamentals that brought EPIC a unique and great MP success.

Gears at its core works at its best with asymmetrical maps (& Semi asymmetric -GOW3-), its easy to follow, Its action focused and its streamlined
while also giving the player multiple options and choices. Gears works at its upmost best when its Grounded, base flat and which incorporates
some low and slightly elevated places around the map (eg:Gridlock,Warmachine,Checkout,Oldtown,Security)


GOW previously (through 1/2/3) always encouraged the player/teams to work to secure map control, GOW3 also maintained the asymmetrical map design
but had a great twist with multiple entrys and exit's that were open to give the players options, and focused on where they needed
to go and what to options to push 1v1 on the left or 3v1 on the right, giving players the ability to break down the opponents.

The industry buzz word for the last couple of years has been "vertical Combat/Verticality" these words having sadly creep into the MP design
and hence spoilt GOWJ and the rich GOW experience. it has been thrown around here alot but, GOWJ does follow the MP traits and design of
a Call of Duty/Halo (Map Design) and some gameplay traits of Halo (Battle Rifles,Sticky nades animations and COG/COG), Gears of War as a franchise has sadly lost its identity with mp

Here is some Multiplayer Overheads for reference of dropped Quality and focus

GOW1-3 Unique quality style maps focused on Teamplay, GOWJ: Random stairs and pathways with no unique places, built soley for FFA with randomly placed Weapon spawns.
Old_Town_N_Gondola.jpg

Default Loadouts and Power weapons placements is what gives Gears its edge and uniqueness, its unlike any MP title and stems from the roots of Unreal Tournament.

Why has all this changed? its simple, they wanted people to fall/roll/jump off buildings.
with just this one monumental decision EPIC ran with, they killed their own fundamental traits and success, also notice how you cant climb up? another GOWJ design flaw.
Why has Epic chosen to remove locust? its simple, The armour cameos are not universal
and would made development time way longer create seperate indivial parts for each type locust.

NO ONE wanted Locust removed from MP, I repeat NO ONE.

I haven't even started with gameplay choices such Jumping off buildings, and core gameplay Mechanics of Gears of War Judgment
No DBNO, only One Primary Loadout, Stim Grenade Exploit & Cheapness, Return of the 2 peice, OP'd Scorcher, No locust, 4 Tdm/FFA maps, 8 gnasher bullets,
no fighting for map control and pushing for weapons, no memorable control and teamplay battles. etc.

i could go on but i wont (probably already did), you cant fight it, its all the there it honestly would have beneficial for EPIC to release this as a new IP instead of Shitting up the GOW MP franchise,
i know alot of people around here hate Call of Duty but there is one thing they never fuck with, is the successful franchise traits that have kept the identity and player familiar with their game .

Simply, I put all the blame on EPIC GAMES & the entire GOWJ MP team, more specifically the lead designers, Screw them for not following there own foundation,uniqueness, success and fans.

All this fuss and long post for a GOW game that only has 4 maps, oh sorry its 8 because Overun is what we want to play, or is it 10 maps? those 2 free maps next month confirmed and played by Youtubers which now is posing as supposed "free" DLC. Glad mine is rented, waiting on a preowned title and price drop.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
I didn't notice too many people talking about how this game has fallen on its face for microtransactions and the implementation of gift boxes, specifically. I feel they've REALLY hurt themselves by making so many skins locked behind MSP purchases, and instead should have done more with their tiered boxes for unlocks. It's really easy to compare Gears' method with Mass Effect 3's co-op and how they handled these drops. Maybe future Gears Judgment updates will offer a larger and better pool of things to unlock, but having player skins behind paywalls as well as the majority of the weapon skins. Total bummer how they fumbled it on this, and it won't keep me playing.
 
The good thing about Judgement is that there is a ton of potential in a next gen Gears 4 should they choose to pursue that.

I'm hoping Epics main team works on Samaritan, and People Can Fly on Gears of War 4. It'd be a good project for them because all they'd really need to do is iterate. Nothing new really needs to be come up with, they just need to produce a ton of content.

A combination of Judgements ideas and Gears 3 would be an amazing package imo.

Gears 4 could add judgements verticality and combine it with the Gears tug of war style map design mentality. Smaller maps, fewer power weapons, forced confrontations.

- Remove starting with nades. They are essentially the third power weapon on the map in a traditional gears map design.

- Stim nades need to heal ANYONE in the area.

- Bring back DBNO.

- Bring back locusts.

- Remove the cornball ass character skins and just give us a ton of awesome ones like in Gears 3. Leave the paywall shit for guns.

- Keep the non active reload boon

- Beast, Survival, Overrun, Horde.
 

JB1981

Member
I didn't notice too many people talking about how this game has fallen on its face for microtransactions and the implementation of gift boxes, specifically. I feel they've REALLY hurt themselves by making so many skins locked behind MSP purchases, and instead should have done more with their tiered boxes for unlocks. It's really easy to compare Gears' method with Mass Effect 3's co-op and how they handled these drops. Maybe future Gears Judgment updates will offer a larger and better pool of things to unlock, but having player skins behind paywalls as well as the majority of the weapon skins. Total bummer how they fumbled it on this, and it won't keep me playing.

You don't unlock ANY new player skins as you rank up?
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
You don't unlock ANY new player skins as you rank up?

I think there's about six or seven you can unlock that way, and I believe there's 20+ locked behind hard MSP. From a psychology standpoint that's absolutely murder on what's just a taste of how successful F2P economies work - people need to feel that they have a chance, however remote, that they can unlock something they REALLY want. Things that are locked behind hard currency really fucks with how a player feels when they play to earn things.
 

Interfectum

Member
I played a few hours of Gears last night and I'm going to have to agree that it feels dumbed down / faster paced than the previous ones. Overrun, while kinda fun, is a chaotic mess. Same goes for the story mode. I probably went through 1/3 of the game so far barely using cover and firing a shotgun from the hip. It feels like a weird mesh of Gears 3 mixed with COD. I don't even know whats going on in the story... doesn't seem that urgent or compelling.

Still though, having fun in multi with friends and it's basically a Gears game but I'm not really a fan of the changes so far.

Oh yeah and some of those character skins in multi are fucking awful. Completely destroy the look of the game and they don't even look cool. The hell were they thinking with that?
 

JB1981

Member
I think there's about six or seven you can unlock that way, and I believe there's 20+ locked behind hard MSP. From a psychology standpoint that's absolutely murder on what's just a taste of how successful F2P economies work - people need to feel that they have a chance, however remote, that they can unlock something they REALLY want. Things that are locked behind hard currency really fucks with how a player feels when they play to earn things.

Wow. The more I hear about this game the more it sounds like a rip-off at $60.
 
I think there's about six or seven you can unlock that way, and I believe there's 20+ locked behind hard MSP. From a psychology standpoint that's absolutely murder on what's just a taste of how successful F2P economies work - people need to feel that they have a chance, however remote, that they can unlock something they REALLY want. Things that are locked behind hard currency really fucks with how a player feels when they play to earn things.

it totally feels like MS' sticky fingers are all over this. the number of unlockable vs paid skins should at least be swapped. and to add more insult here's a comment from the SXSW panel concerning unlocks for Gears vets. no fucking time? bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiKZdbn9eGE&t=1m20s
 

Interfectum

Member
it totally feels like MS' sticky fingers are all over this. the number of unlockable vs paid skins should at least be swapped. and to add more insult here's a comment from the SXSW panel concerning unlocks for Gears vets. no fucking time? bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiKZdbn9eGE&t=1m20s

Yeah I noticed that too... no perks for Gears 1-3 fans in this one. Kinda lame.

Nice to see they do "have the time" to milk players who already spent $60 for the game though.
 
smik I disagree with a lot of what you are complaining about but one thing that really stuck out to me was starting with only 8 gnasher rounds. I think that is a great change. It eems like they were really focused on making the mp faster, and not letting players just hide in a corner or behind cover. Now you have to always keep moving, and I think that make the game so much more enjoyable then previous Gears. I really hope that PCF does Gears 4 now, since I feel that crushed this one out of the park. The mp isnt people just holding their little section of the map, now people have to move all around the maps.
 

mernst23

Member
Didn't get to play much on Tuesday but yesterday I played the single player campaign through Cole's testimony/Act IV. The single player is a total snoozefest. It's just a bunch of push forward as fast as possible or defend this position scenarios all loosely stitched together through a boring throwaway plot.

As mentioned, the declassified scenarios are interesting but they all boil down to either a time limit, fog of war, use these locust weapons counter intuitive to this area, or MOAR enemies. It gets stale.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
it totally feels like MS' sticky fingers are all over this. the number of unlockable vs paid skins should at least be swapped. and to add more insult here's a comment from the SXSW panel concerning unlocks for Gears vets. no fucking time? bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiKZdbn9eGE&t=1m20s

Yeah I noticed that too... no perks for Gears 1-3 fans in this one. Kinda lame.

Nice to see they do "have the time" to milk players who already spent $60 for the game though.

I don't think this is all done with malicious intent or seen as a money grab really - it's simply not done well. ME3 has earned EA millions of dollars in microtransactions, easily. It's still a money grab. But ME3's is done well and was well researched in terms of player autonomy, intent, and intrinsic motivators. There's seriously a right and wrong way to do this, and the right way isn't to make it all free, and the right way isn't locking some stuff behind a paywall. There's a balance that ME3 mostly got right, and it shows. Gears Judgment's is just not well thought out enough, and whoever came up with their microtransaction strategy should be replaced with someone who understands how to milk the player of their money without it feeling like a stiff wall in front of them, while at the same time not making it too easy to achieve. It's a short money grab, and the real money is in the long game which doesn't apparently exist for this game. We've heard nothing about what the season pass brings beyond maps. What drove people to ME3 is that they added lots of characters and archetypes. I'm not saying we need a 1:1 tradeoff with ME3, because Gears isn't suited for that - but we need more ways to modify and make our characters our own, while giving us MORE incentive to get out there and play the game even when we're not progressing towards anything except more prize boxes.
 
smik I disagree with a lot of what you are complaining about but one thing that really stuck out to me was starting with only 8 gnasher rounds. I think that is a great change. It eems like they were really focused on making the mp faster, and not letting players just hide in a corner or behind cover. Now you have to always keep moving, and I think that make the game so much more enjoyable then previous Gears. I really hope that PCF does Gears 4 now, since I feel that crushed this one out of the park. The mp isnt people just holding their little section of the map, now people have to move all around the maps.

there are so many Gnashers dropped from enemies it's a non issue for me. in fact, i'll sometimes spawn with a rifle and go pick one up quickly enough that it feel like I'm not hindered by the loadout system at all.
 
there are so many Gnashers dropped from enemies it's a non issue for me. in fact, i'll sometimes spawn with a rifle and go pick one up quickly enough that it feel like I'm not hindered by the loadout system at all.

Yeah there is ammo all over, but you still have to move for it. In earlier games people could hold a spot much more easily.
 
I agree with many of the complaints that people have highlighted so far. That being said, have you guys been playing overrun? Because it is great! Probably not so much if you don't have a team of at least 3-5 people working together... but assuming you have competent teammates it is really a blast, and very strategic.
 

see5harp

Member
Yea I played a few matches last night. Complete clusterfuck in the TDM matches. Most of the maps are too big have way too many weapon spawns. I still feel as though the core gameplay of shooting and dashing to walls feels great. I am glad that this is only a Gamefly rental at the end of the day.
 

Allforce

Member
smik I disagree with a lot of what you are complaining about but one thing that really stuck out to me was starting with only 8 gnasher rounds. I think that is a great change. It eems like they were really focused on making the mp faster, and not letting players just hide in a corner or behind cover. Now you have to always keep moving, and I think that make the game so much more enjoyable then previous Gears. I really hope that PCF does Gears 4 now, since I feel that crushed this one out of the park. The mp isnt people just holding their little section of the map, now people have to move all around the maps.

Yeah I hated those parts of a tactical team cover-based shooter franchise...

All the next Gears needs is jet packs it sounds like to officially bury this franchise. How did they manage to screw this up so royally in less than 20 months?
 

REV 09

Member
I don't have many complaints other than that the game isn't very Gears like with the standoffs in multi. It's very fun for what it is and like ODST is a nice change of pace from the mainline games. I do wish the Declassified stuff was kept for an Arcade mode of campaign instead of being front and center during the first playthrough. Overrun is a great addition and Survival is quite fun too.
 

Gumbie

Member
Yeah I hated those parts of a tactical team cover-based shooter franchise...

All the next Gears needs is jet packs it sounds like to officially bury this franchise. How did they manage to screw this up so royally in less than 20 months?

Gears has been going downhill since Gears of War 2. Gears 1 was awesome and they've slowly destroyed everything that made it so good over the span of 3 sequels.
 

see5harp

Member
I don't have many complaints other than that the game isn't very Gears like with the standoffs in multi. It's very fun for what it is and like ODST is a nice change of pace from the mainline games. I do wish the Declassified stuff was kept for an Arcade mode of campaign instead of being front and center during the first playthrough. Overrun is a great addition and Survival is quite fun too.

I agree the declassified stuff is fun and provides some actual challenge on Hardcore difficulty. It does seem to distract from the story they are trying to tell though (not that it's overwhelmingly great so far).

EDIT: Your rankings regarding the series is spot on. Gears 3 had the best horde mode (by far) and best multiplayer (even including the crazy OP SOS at launch).
 

REV 09

Member
Gears has been going downhill since Gears of War 2. Gears 1 was awesome and they've slowly destroyed everything that made it so good over the span of 3 sequels.
Imo...probably a minority here.

Gears 2 = best campaign
Gears 3 = best multi
Gears J = best "beast" mode in Overrun
Gears 3 = best horde / survival mode
 
Speaking of rankings, I just checked out my friends leader board for single player and I'm not ranked for any levels despite being 3/4 of the way through. No idea why.
 

-PXG-

Member
Here are my thoughts on the design on Gears of War Judgment and the MP of the GOW franchise

Gears of War as a franchise has lost its own identity with Multiplayer

Its been 3 sequels/prequels and we finally have got back to this point,
Gears from a Multiplayer standpoint cannot stand its own success, We had the undeniable great success with GOW1,
the scummy dirty pits of GOW2 to the amazing resurgence of GOW3, Now we have Gears of War Judgement .
GOW3 came out with blazing success and offered all players new/casual/hardcore, the GOW3 beta provided crucial feedback
which EPIC took on board and hence we as a fanbase got to enjoy. GOW3 provided everything, a player from any kind could enjoy.

This bring us to GOWJ

Every fundamental that EPIC had been built up/perfected throughout the years from GOW1/2*/3 has been stript away and put to the weigh side,
everything the MP fans supported and fought for in GOW1-3 has been completely abolished and in return we have a Uncharted/Halo/COD knock off.
GOWJ's competitive Multiplayer (TDM,FFA,DOM) doesn't not flow right or have any resemblance from previous titles, it completely removes itself away
from any of the fundamentals that brought EPIC a unique and great MP success.

Gears at its core works at its best with asymmetrical maps (& Semi asymmetric -GOW3-), its easy to follow, Its action focused and its streamlined
while also giving the player multiple options and choices. Gears works at its upmost best when its Grounded, base flat and which incorporates
some low and slightly elevated places around the map (eg:Gridlock,Warmachine,Checkout,Oldtown,Security)


GOW previously (through 1/2/3) always encouraged the player/teams to work to secure map control, GOW3 also maintained the asymmetrical map design
but had a great twist with multiple entrys and exit's that were open to give the players options, and focused on where they needed
to go and what to options to push 1v1 on the left or 3v1 on the right, giving players the ability to break down the opponents.

The industry buzz word for the last couple of years has been "vertical Combat/Verticality" these words having sadly creep into the MP design
and hence spoilt GOWJ and the rich GOW experience. it has been thrown around here alot but, GOWJ does follow the MP traits and design of
a Call of Duty/Halo (Map Design) and some gameplay traits of Halo (Battle Rifles,Sticky nades animations and COG/COG), Gears of War as a franchise has sadly lost its identity with mp

Here is some Multiplayer Overheads for reference of dropped Quality and focus

GOW1-3 Unique quality style maps focused on Teamplay, GOWJ: Random stairs and pathways with no unique places, built soley for FFA with randomly placed Weapon spawns.
Old_Town_N_Gondola.jpg

Default Loadouts and Power weapons placements is what gives Gears its edge and uniqueness, its unlike any MP title and stems from the roots of Unreal Tournament.

Why has all this changed? its simple, they wanted people to fall/roll/jump off buildings.
with just this one monumental decision EPIC ran with, they killed their own fundamental traits and success, also notice how you cant climb up? another GOWJ design flaw.
Why has Epic chosen to remove locust? its simple, The armour cameos are not universal
and would made development time way longer create seperate indivial parts for each type locust.

NO ONE wanted Locust removed from MP, I repeat NO ONE.

I haven't even started with gameplay choices such Jumping off buildings, and core gameplay Mechanics of Gears of War Judgment
No DBNO, only One Primary Loadout, Stim Grenade Exploit & Cheapness, Return of the 2 peice, OP'd Scorcher, No locust, 4 Tdm/FFA maps, 8 gnasher bullets,
no fighting for map control and pushing for weapons, no memorable control and teamplay battles. etc.

i could go on but i wont (probably already did), you cant fight it, its all the there it honestly would have beneficial for EPIC to release this as a new IP instead of Shitting up the GOW MP franchise,
i know alot of people around here hate Call of Duty but there is one thing they never fuck with, is the successful franchise traits that have kept the identity and player familiar with their game .

Simply, I put all the blame on EPIC GAMES & the entire GOWJ MP team, more specifically the lead designers, Screw them for not following there own foundation,uniqueness, success and fans.

All this fuss and long post for a GOW game that only has 4 maps, oh sorry its 8 because Overun is what we want to play, or is it 10 maps? those 2 free maps next month confirmed and played by Youtubers which now is posing as supposed "free" DLC. Glad mine is rented, waiting on a preowned title and price drop.

You and I have basically echoed this sentiment and these observations. It's a real shame too.

You're spot on. I'll still put in my two cents later.
 
I wonder what Cliffy and Rod have to say about Gears J, especially Cliffy having put so much work on the first three.

I really like PCF and what they did with Bulletstorm. I haven't picked up Gears J yet as I've been waiting to see what people are saying and I am a pretty big fan of the franchise.
 

-PXG-

Member
As for Declassified missions, here are my notes and suggestions on how it could have been better:

1. There should be multiple omens per area. In fact, some of them should be stackable, so that it makes the game play and story more dynamic

2. Opting into a mission, at times, should lead you on a hidden or alternate route that wouldn't be accessible on a normal playthrough.

3. Even more Declassified missions should be unlocked after completing the game or earning X amount of stars.

4. As already mentioned, Declassified missions should effect the outcome of the story, and even the ending. Perhaps completion of certain missions should effect on which ones are available to you later in the game.

5. Different colors and effects of the omen itself signifies what kind of mission it is. Time limit, weapon changes, different enemies, alternate route, ect.

6. There should be instances where you have a choice to pick on of multiple omens at once. Players can explore the other mission and even different combinations over several playthroughs.

I just wish it was way more fleshed out. It had the potential to have a lot of replayability.
 

Kydd BlaZe

Member
As for Declassified missions, here are my notes and suggestions on how it could have been better:

1. There should be multiple omens per area. In fact, some of them should be stackable, so that it makes the game play and story more dynamic

2. Opting into a mission, at times, should lead you on a hidden or alternate route that wouldn't be accessible on a normal playthrough.

3. Even more Declassified missions should be unlocked after completing the game or earning X amount of stars.

4. As already mentioned, Declassified missions should effect the outcome of the story, and even the ending. Perhaps completion of certain missions should effect on which ones are available to you later in the game.

5. Different colors and effects of the omen itself signifies what kind of mission it is. Time limit, weapon changes, different enemies, alternate route, ect.

6. There should be instances where you have a choice to pick on of multiple omens at once. Players can explore the other mission and even different combinations over several playthroughs.

I just wish it was way more fleshed out. It had the potential to have a lot of replayability.

All of these are really nice ideas. If implemented properly, this could really shake up the Gears formula and allow for some really interesting gameplay scenarios. You should've been a part of the Judgment development team, lol.
 

JB1981

Member
Gears has been going downhill since Gears of War 2. Gears 1 was awesome and they've slowly destroyed everything that made it so good over the span of 3 sequels.

Gears 3 MP was incredible. Gears 1 had the worst netcode of any AAA title released all generation.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
The amount of content and characters in Gears 3 is unparalleled. God damn I love me some Barrick.
 

2San

Member
Gears 3 MP was incredible. Gears 1 had the worst netcode of any AAA title released all generation.
Huge host advantage even on lan takes a special kind of effort. :D
I think you meant to say Gears 2.
Was pretty much the same, just the game mechanics made it worse. People really needed to get used to the bullets coming from the weapon rather than the middle of the screen. Also the way matchmaking was set up so you where more likely to be matched with laggy people.

edit:
Disagree. After about 6 patches Gears of War 2 was actually playable.
That too, just remove frag tagging, make the game faster and dedicated servers and you have my preference what a Gears game should be.
 

Lupin3

Targeting terrorists with a D-Pad
Disagree. After about 6 patches Gears of War 2 was actually playable.

It was. And it was a whole lot of fun as well! Damn I miss those maps so much! Are we ever going to see Ruins, Security, Avalanche and such again?

Not if PCF gets to decide...
 

JB1981

Member
Huge host advantage even on lan takes a special kind of effort. :D

Was pretty much the same, just the game mechanics made it worse. People really needed to get used to the bullets coming from the weapon rather than the middle of the screen. Also the way matchmaking was set up so you where more likely to be matched with laggy people.

edit:

That too, just remove frag tagging, make the game faster and dedicated servers and you have my preference what a Gears game should be.

remember smoke knock downs? HAHA
 

-PXG-

Member
All of these are really nice ideas. If implemented properly, this could really shake up the Gears formula and allow for some really interesting gameplay scenarios. You should've been a part of the Judgment development team, lol.

A lot of people here, on XBL and irl have said this to me.

In my heart, I know I have ideas on how to reinvigorate the series, stay true to its roots, respect the hardcore loyalist and cater to new folks too. It's definitively feasible. Making the perfect Gears of War experience is possible. It's just having the desire, sensible judgement and balls to do it. And yes, I'm sure a ton of money could be made if everything comes together the way it should.

All four games bring some good things to the table. They just need to sort out the crap and then hire people like me and smik :)
 

Robot Pants

Member
LMAO

Quite possibly the stupidest thing Epic has ever done with this franchise. Glad they realized how retarded that shit was, and got rid of it.
Took them way too long to figure out how bad they were. Then came the sawed off. Epic is pretty clueless when you sit back and think about it.
 
Damn I somehow forgot about that. It made for hilarious animation and glitches. :p
I think the addition of TDM in Gears 3 was the result of so many Guardian leaders smoking themselves into that glitch spot in the two shacks on River where you couldn't be hit. Infinte TDM.
 
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