Support NeoGAF

[Chronoja]

You can actually find an audio diary of that woman in the area. To sum it up, she is the reason that they knew to ambush you later in that area. It seems that her calling Liz "Annabelle" was coincidence and that name was the codeword to let everyone else know who you were.

Ah right. Cheers. Haven't relistened to the voxophones yet, will have to do so.

 

[cpp_is_king]

No, the only thing that transfers is the found audio diaries.

Damn, so how do people do it? I would think that unless you have all upgrades early on and all health/shield/vigor upgrades, you'd get crushed on 1993 mode.

a few of the battles, like the 3 against Comstock's ghost, and the last battle with Songbird, are just straight up ridiculous even on Normal, just seems impossible on 1993 without max upgrades.

 

[Yoshichan]

Ask and ye shall receive, here's the one I'm using right now:

Thanks man!

 

[The One Who Knocks]

So you're essentially saying Elizabeth's actions don't cause timelines where she does something differently.

That's kind of a cop-out, imo, a deus ex machina. If she's still human on any level, what she does would create an alternate timeline where she doesn't. Trying to remove herself from existence to negate the whole sequence of events in the first place wouldn't work, for she could never not exist. The whole "was, is, will be" deal. Even if she "is not" or "no longer," she still "was." And so a timeline crops up to accomodate that -- and every possibility for everything she does, and doesn't do.

Which would include bringing Booker to baptism, but NOT killing him... No?

As explained in the previous page, there cannot coexist sets of universes in which Booker fails and Booker succeeds, they're mutually exclusive and the 'succeed' version will always exist over the 'failure universe'. Why can't this be? Because Elizabeth can see all of the doors. If she can see every single infinite set where Booker and Comstock attend the baptism, she strangles Booker before the choice in every single timelines, even timelines where Booker fails. That means that if Booker succeeds even a single time, every other universe in which Comstock exists becomes a loop, a paradox.

 

[Sorian]

Damn, so how do people do it? I would think that unless you have all upgrades early on and all health/shield/vigor upgrades, you'd get crushed on 1993 mode.

a few of the battles, like the 3 against Comstock's ghost, and the last battle with Songbird, are just straight up ridiculous even on Normal, just seems impossible on 1993 without max upgrades.

Upgrade charge and bucking bronco all the way and learn to use all weapons since you'll be sparse on ammo and can't be choosy. It really doesn't sound too bad.

 

[Incendiary]

Playing from the beginning really makes me notice the jarring transition between the first half and the second half of the game. All the unique encounters (including the woman who sets herself on fire to destroy the zeppelin), the announcer on the radio talking about Booker attacking people during the fair, the Order of the Eagle. It really draws you into the Columbia universe.

None of that is present during the second half in favor of tears and other plot. Granted, during the Vox Rebellion the "False Shepherd" is already dead but it's really a sticking point that you never return to your original universe/tear where all of Columbia's citizens are on the lookout for the False Shepherd.

 

[DTKT]

Someone mentioned the music from "There will be blood" as an inspiration for the soundtrack. Is that true?

 

[cpp_is_king]

Upgrade charge and bucking bronco all the way and learn to use all weapons since you'll be sparse on ammo and can't be choosy. It really doesn't sound too bad.

I just saw that there's a Steam achievement for completing 1999 mode without purchasing anything from a Vending Machine

 

[Neiteio]

Saw this GameFAQs explanation, and it's actually... Good?

"The first three universes have one thing in common: the Lutece Tear. A rip in spacetime made possible by funding from Comstock. The first three outcomes are reliant on an existence of Comstock in order for the tear to be made possible. The tear is the real problem. It is causing the universe to fall apart. It is evident by the tears that exist around Columbia. And the problem is exacerbated as Booker and Elizabeth jump from world to world, resulting in people being caught between dimensions. The very fabric of spacetime is threatened. The only resolution is to eliminate the possibility of the tear. Lutece will always exist. But the funding does not without Comstock.

When Booker drowns, he closes the loop, and eliminates the possibility of Comstock. He rewrites the universal constant. The question is no longer "does Booker accept baptism?" There is no question. Every universe that is influenced by Comstock is eliminated, because there is no Comstock. This leaves only the fourth possibility, where Booker always refuses baptism. He never sells Anna. A new constant, no longer a point of divisiveness in the universe. There is no more tearing, no people caught between dimensions. The universe is fixed. No plot holes, no paradoxes. Everything wrapped up nice and neat."

 

[Sorian]

I just saw that there's a Steam achievement for completing 1999 mode without purchasing anything from a Vending Machine

Only from the "Dollar Bill" vending machine. You can still buy from the other vending machines (the vigor and weapon upgrade machine).

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Someone mentioned the music from "There will be blood" as an inspiration for the soundtrack. Is that true?

From the other thread after a Google search:

Bam.

“To me, this game has much more of an American feel to it. We wanted a bit more of a frontier feel to it, slightly. It would be very easy to go in a bad direction with that. It could be very Civil War-y or very Wild West-y. The Bonanza theme. That kind of thing. It’s not what I wanted. I think probably the biggest inspiration for me was Johnny Greenwood’s score for There Will Be Blood. He’s one of the musicians in Radiohead. He did this wonderful, incredibly spare score. That was a good starting point. There’s some influence from the score for 12 Monkeys in Garry’s score. And then there’s just Garry.”

EDIT:

Saw this GameFAQs explanation, and it's actually... Good?

"The first three universes have one thing in common: the Lutece Tear. A rip in spacetime made possible by funding from Comstock. The first three outcomes are reliant on an existence of Comstock in order for the tear to be made possible. The tear is the real problem. It is causing the universe to fall apart. It is evident by the tears that exist around Columbia. And the problem is exacerbated as Booker and Elizabeth jump from world to world, resulting in people being caught between dimensions. The very fabric of spacetime is threatened. The only resolution is to eliminate the possibility of the tear. Lutece will always exist. But the funding does not without Comstock.

When Booker drowns, he closes the loop, and eliminates the possibility of Comstock. He rewrites the universal constant. The question is no longer "does Booker accept baptism?" There is no question. Every universe that is influenced by Comstock is eliminated, because there is no Comstock. This leaves only the fourth possibility, where Booker always refuses baptism. He never sells Anna. A new constant, no longer a point of divisiveness in the universe. There is no more tearing, no people caught between dimensions. The universe is fixed. No plot holes, no paradoxes. Everything wrapped up nice and neat."

Yes, that's this timeline: http://www.abload.de/img/endingtimeline.2j7x4f.jpg

 

[Sorian]

Saw this GameFAQs explanation, and it's actually... Good?

"The first three universes have one thing in common: the Lutece Tear. A rip in spacetime made possible by funding from Comstock. The first three outcomes are reliant on an existence of Comstock in order for the tear to be made possible. The tear is the real problem. It is causing the universe to fall apart. It is evident by the tears that exist around Columbia. And the problem is exacerbated as Booker and Elizabeth jump from world to world, resulting in people being caught between dimensions. The very fabric of spacetime is threatened. The only resolution is to eliminate the possibility of the tear. Lutece will always exist. But the funding does not without Comstock.

When Booker drowns, he closes the loop, and eliminates the possibility of Comstock. He rewrites the universal constant. The question is no longer "does Booker accept baptism?" There is no question. Every universe that is influenced by Comstock is eliminated, because there is no Comstock. This leaves only the fourth possibility, where Booker always refuses baptism. He never sells Anna. A new constant, no longer a point of divisiveness in the universe. There is no more tearing, no people caught between dimensions. The universe is fixed. No plot holes, no paradoxes. Everything wrapped up nice and neat."

Hmm, it is a good point but it is just a different way of saying the same thing we all have been. The point was to make sure Comstock never existed.

 

[Vitet]

I just noticed, in the first telescope you can use, you see the Luteces to the left with the man juggling some balls. When you let go the telescope and try to see them for yourself they're gone

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Someone mentioned the music from "There will be blood" as an inspiration for the soundtrack. Is that true?

Yeah.

“To me, this game has much more of an American feel to it. We wanted a bit more of a frontier feel to it, slightly. It would be very easy to go in a bad direction with that. It could be very Civil War-y or very Wild West-y. The Bonanza theme. That kind of thing. It’s not what I wanted. I think probably the biggest inspiration for me was Johnny Greenwood’s score for There Will Be Blood. He’s one of the musicians in Radiohead. He did this wonderful, incredibly spare score. That was a good starting point. There’s some influence from the score for 12 Monkeys in Garry’s score. And then there’s just Garry.”

EDIT - beaten like Chen Lin.

 

[Neiteio]

I just noticed, in the first telescope you can use, you see the Luteces to the left with the man juggling some balls. When you let go the telescope and try to see them for yourself they're gone

Whoa, that's CRAZY! Makes me wonder if the other telescopes do anything similar? Sometimes, the telescope views seemed fairly unremarkable. I didn't consider the fact there might be Easter eggs like that.

 

[Sorian]

I just noticed, in the first telescope you can use, you see the Luteces to the left with the man juggling some balls. When you let go the telescope and try to see them for yourself they're gone

That is an awesome detail right there.

Yeah.



EDIT - beaten like Chen Lin.

Oh shit!

 

[Dance Inferno]

Here's a question: when you the player are playing through the final scenes with the lighthouses, you as Booker go through both rejecting the baptism and then accepting the baptism; Elizabeth seems to be pushing you to accept the baptism, and then drowns you when you do so. Why would you accept the baptism after you had initially rejected it?

 

[Gorillaz]

I am replaying it and I saw the statue of lutece from the start of the game during the raffle fair go through the whole dimension change from male to female lutece.

Its deep how most of this shit was going on before and I just said whatever to it on the first run. It's mind blowing now seeing all the gears turn.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Here's a question: when you the player are playing through the final scenes with the lighthouses, you as Booker go through both rejecting the baptism and then accepting the baptism; Elizabeth seems to be pushing you to accept the baptism, and then drowns you when you do so. Why would you accept the baptism after you had initially rejected it?

She wants Booker to understand, which he does in the end (hence the last line).

 

[Sorian]

Here's a question: when you the player are playing through the final scenes with the lighthouses, you as Booker go through both rejecting the baptism and then accepting the baptism; Elizabeth seems to be pushing you to accept the baptism, and then drowns you when you do so. Why would you accept the baptism after you had initially rejected it?

She is taking you on a grand tour of everything to explain as she goes along. If you ask me, that second scene isn't you accepting the baptism. She brought you back to right before you decided to accept or refuse the baptism and drowned you.

As cited by: when you first walk in, the priest says "Booker Dewitt! Are you ready to be born again? Are you ready for your sins to be cleansed?"

 

[MaximumFlipFlop]

EDIT - beaten like Chen Lin.

RIP

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Here's a question: when you the player are playing through the final scenes with the lighthouses, you as Booker go through both rejecting the baptism and then accepting the baptism; Elizabeth seems to be pushing you to accept the baptism, and then drowns you when you do so. Why would you accept the baptism after you had initially rejected it?

Elizabeth is explaining to Booker how Comstock's existence came to be. As in, the player Booker (and another infinite set of Bookers) rejected baptism but in other oceans (universes) Booker accepted it. Elizabeth realises that to remove the possibiliy of Comstock ever existing, Booker must be drowned before he can make the choice. This makes Comstock existing a paradox and thus Booker must always reject baptism to avoid the paradox.

EDIT: Beaten to death like Alternate Chen Lin.

 

[Voice of Reason]

I agreed with a Youtube comment though, that the final scene of the game where Elizabeth just mercilessly kills Booker is kind of harsh. I mean, sure he's Comstock, but this guy saved your life, and is now your father. I expected something a little more touching, rather than coldly repeating "smother" before drowning you.

 

[Sorian]

RIP

Don't worry about it, he's actually still alive and its thanks to his weapons that Fink and Fitzroy are dead. Win-win!

I agreed with a Youtube comment though, that the final scene of the game where Elizabeth just mercilessly kills Booker is kind of harsh. I mean, sure he's Comstock, but this guy saved your life, and is now your father. I expected something a little more touching, rather than coldly repeating "smother" before drowning you.

To be fair, if I am right, she thinks she is killing herself too. Kind of a sombor moment all around.

 

[Dance Inferno]

She wants Booker to understand, which he does in the end (hence the last line).

What's the last line again?

She is taking you on a grand tour of everything to explain as she goes along. If you ask me, that second scene isn't you accepting the baptism. She brought you back to right before you decided to accept or refuse the baptism and drowned you.

As cited by: when you first walk in, the priest says "Booker Dewitt! Are you ready to be born again? Are you ready for your sins to be cleansed?"

So in order to explain everything to you she decides to kill you? I don't understand why she would do that.

 

[EliteArtist]

Ask and ye shall receive, here's the one I'm using right now:

Thanks! This looks great!

 

[RoKKeR]

Ok, what the hell?

 

[Sorian]

What's the last line again?



So in order to explain everything to you she decides to kill you? I don't understand why she would do that.

She kills you once you understand what is going on. The last line by booker is "No.....I am both" (both Comstock and Booker).

She did some time travel here and tossed you back into your body right after the battle of wounded knee. Killing you here makes it so that you never get the chance to accept or decline baptism. Without being able to accept or decline, Comstock can never ever be born.

 

[Voice of Reason]

What's the last line again?

I am both.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

So in order to explain everything to you she decides to kill you? I don't understand why she would do that.

No, she erases this particular version of you, and all Elizabeth versions of herself, from existence. She explained everything so that you understand what your ultimate faith must be before the events of the game are erased from existence to reset the timeline.

 

[Korey]

Saw this GameFAQs explanation, and it's actually... Good?

"The first three universes have one thing in common: the Lutece Tear. A rip in spacetime made possible by funding from Comstock. The first three outcomes are reliant on an existence of Comstock in order for the tear to be made possible. The tear is the real problem. It is causing the universe to fall apart. It is evident by the tears that exist around Columbia. And the problem is exacerbated as Booker and Elizabeth jump from world to world, resulting in people being caught between dimensions. The very fabric of spacetime is threatened. The only resolution is to eliminate the possibility of the tear. Lutece will always exist. But the funding does not without Comstock.

When Booker drowns, he closes the loop, and eliminates the possibility of Comstock. He rewrites the universal constant. The question is no longer "does Booker accept baptism?" There is no question. Every universe that is influenced by Comstock is eliminated, because there is no Comstock. This leaves only the fourth possibility, where Booker always refuses baptism. He never sells Anna. A new constant, no longer a point of divisiveness in the universe. There is no more tearing, no people caught between dimensions. The universe is fixed. No plot holes, no paradoxes. Everything wrapped up nice and neat."

No, no.

There is no "refuses baptism" possibility, because he's drowned before he gets that chance. The game states this explicitly.

 

[RoKKeR]

I'm so very confused, I need to do some reading.

 

[Sorian]

I'm so very confused, I need to do some reading.

Pick a random spot in the thread and just read up. I'm told page 88 is a good starting point (assuming 50 posts per page)

 

[mickcenary]

Because we can assume that their heightened sense of hearing is so precise, that they can tell exactly where you are. I have no problem believing this. Ever meet a blind person? Their sense of hearing usually beats the shit out of a normal healthy persons.

Totally okay with that, but that doesn't explain why I can run around like a loud bastard in close proximity as long as their line of "sight" is obscured. It really doesn't make sense.

 

[Dance Inferno]

Alright so Elizabeth drowns Booker before he is able to make the choice of whether to accept or reject the baptism, therefore eliminating all Elizabeths from existence since Comstock never exists and never buys Anna from Booker.

However, by killing Booker doesn't she also eliminate Booker from all timelines?

 

[Sorian]

Alright so Elizabeth drowns Booker before he is able to make the choice of whether to accept or reject the baptism, therefore eliminating all Elizabeths from existence since Comstock never exists and never buys Anna from Booker.

However, by killing Booker doesn't she also eliminate Booker from all timelines?

I would hope so. Damn that after credits secen for adding complexity for no reason!

Totally okay with that, but that doesn't explain why I can run around like a loud bastard in close proximity as long as their line of "sight" is obscured. It really doesn't make sense.

Maybe they are focusing their "sonar" in a straight line as they "look" around.

 

[RoKKeR]

Pick a random spot in the thread and just read up. I'm told page 88 is a good starting point (assuming 50 posts per page)

Thank you. Will do.

 

[Korey]

Alright so Elizabeth drowns Booker before he is able to make the choice of whether to accept or reject the baptism, therefore eliminating all Elizabeths from existence since Comstock never exists and never buys Anna from Booker.

However, by killing Booker doesn't she also eliminate Booker from all timelines?

Yes

 

[Dance Inferno]

Oh, so there's no happy ending where Booker and Anna live together?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I agreed with a Youtube comment though, that the final scene of the game where Elizabeth just mercilessly kills Booker is kind of harsh. I mean, sure he's Comstock, but this guy saved your life, and is now your father. I expected something a little more touching, rather than coldly repeating "smother" before drowning you.

Her expression is pretty pained in that scene.

 

[Thoraxes]

Now I know why "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" was playing on the organ at the beach!

 

[TheWrathOfSean]

It just occurred to me that the atrocities that Comstock confessed to (the burning of the tepees at wounded knee), were committed while he was still Booker. Crazy.

 

[Sorian]

Oh, so there's no happy ending where Booker and Anna live together?

I think a happy ending for the sake of having a happy ending would have hurt this beautoful piece of narration, with that being said. No one can really agree because of the scene after the credits. I've come up with a decent theory that still lets the story have a good narration overall but I still can't get it out of my mind that the scene got added in just for the sake of giving people hope.

 

[Kikarian]

The ending reminded me of LOST so much!

 

[EliteArtist]

A question I've had on my mind: Do you think that Booker selling his daughter is redeemed simply by Booker trying to get her back after realizing it was a horrible idea?

 

[Sorian]

A question I've had on my mind: Do you think that Booker selling his daughter is redeemed simply by Booker trying to get her back after realizing it was a horrible idea?

Not in the least

Edit: I feel like his only redemption in this story from anything he has done is not struggling when Elizabeth puts him under because he has accepted that him dying here will at least stop the monster that is Comstock from rising.

 

[zkylon]

A question I've had on my mind: Do you think that Booker selling his daughter is redeemed simply by Booker trying to get her back after realizing it was a horrible idea?

nope

 

[The One Who Knocks]

No, no.

There is no "refuses baptism" possibility, because he's drowned before he gets that chance. The game states this explicitly.

No, there is. The paradox only occurs when Booker accepts. If Booker never ever accepts, ever, Booker can never be drowned before the baptism. Every Booker only drowns before the baptism when any Booker accepts. As a result, Booker can never reject. The rejection becomes a constant to prevent a paradox.

Alright so Elizabeth drowns Booker before he is able to make the choice of whether to accept or reject the baptism, therefore eliminating all Elizabeths from existence since Comstock never exists and never buys Anna from Booker.

However, by killing Booker doesn't she also eliminate Booker from all timelines?

No. She creates a paradox by murdering all Bookers before the choice. Every Booker is murdered by Elizabeth before a choice. Elizabeth can only exist (Elizabeth, as in, omnipotent Elizabeth) if Comstock exists. If every single Booker doesn't accept the baptism, Booker never dies, because Elizabeth never exists to kill him. If any Booker accepts baptism, every Booker dies. Every Booker dying by his daughter before her conception is a paradox and to avoid this paradox Booker must reject. The rejection becomes a constant so the paradox never happens. Thus in the after credits scene an infinite set of Bookers are alive with Anna.

 

[Alucrid]

A question I've had on my mind: Do you think that Booker selling his daughter is redeemed simply by Booker trying to get her back after realizing it was a horrible idea?

To be fair he did try to weasel his way out of it.

 

[Eusis]

However, by killing Booker doesn't she also eliminate Booker from all timelines?

Given the extreme the Leuteces themselves show branching universes can bring, I'm inclined to think that she eliminated ALL Bookers that considered Baptism enough to go then. Any that didn't even consider it worth the effort as such managed to survive, to TRULY eliminate all Bookers you'd have to have done as Booker wanted to do to "Comstock": go back to the cradle and kill him, or even further prevent him from even being born.