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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion

BrokenBox

Member
I'm sure this has been discussed, too, but before I go to bed:

So the world you play Booker in ultimately ends all other Booker's lives. You're born, you go through the war, you choose not to be baptized (while at least one other version of yourself is baptized and turns into Comstock), and then you go through the events of the game. Finally, you choose to go back to the original baptism and accept death by smothering.

So what I have a question on is how does the after-credits sequence take place? Booker's gone from birth to death and canceled out every other world. Or am I wrong on this?
 
I'm referring to Songbirds death in Bshock 1

Oh, whoops, sorry, I thought you were quoting the Rapture Tribune post. My apologies. The disadvantage of being awake too long it would seem :p.

EDIT: Broken Box, I too am going to sleep so I'll simply link you rahter than type it out: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52110291&highlight=#post52110291 I realise this may not address certain questions but I'm sure somebody else will in the mean time. The one thing to keep in mind is I'm not suggesting only universes where Comstock's happen are murdered, I'm agreeing that Elizabeth murders every Booker prior to the choice.
 

Neiteio

Member
This one's not my shot, but... LOL:

BB5796EBFD156FFDA3487BC15D1EBC250B742770
This fellow also tells you how nice you'd look in some nice tight swim trunks.
 
So I just beat the game tonight. Since Booker is Comstock, why does he turn into such a racist asshole? I think early in the game it's alluded to that he (Booker) is not racist. I guess the easy way to explain it is that was the best way to form a cult at the time?

I think that was one of my biggest problems with the story is that Booker is really nothing like Comstock. Just a short cutscene showing a segway between the two characters would've went a long way.
 

kenjisalk

Member
I'm sure this has been discussed, too, but before I go to bed:

So the world you play Booker in ultimately ends all other Booker's lives. You're born, you go through the war, you choose not to be baptized (while at least one other version of yourself is baptized and turns into Comstock), and then you go through the events of the game. Finally, you choose to go back to the original baptism and accept death by smothering.

So what I have a question on is how does the after-credits sequence take place? Booker's gone from birth to death and canceled out every other world. Or am I wrong on this?

Well if we consider time as one straight line, and Elizabeths killing of Booker at the point of baptism ceases all other realities, then Booker always was born, went to war, and drowned at a river during an attempted baptism by unknown forces.

The post-credit sequence then HAS to be some kind of dream as his life is fading or an afterlife type situation in which he is allowed to be with his daughter, absolved of his mistakes.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Any connection between Booker/Comstock and Ryan/Jack is purely symbolic. It's not like Booker went through a wormhole and became Jack or Ryan. Maybe they share genetic similarities. Maybe they don't. You have a genetic fingerprint from hundreds of thousands of human beings that came before you, 99% of which you'll never know existed. The connection in Infinite isn't like the connection between Booker and Comstock, who are the same person with one variable introduced. Booker/Comstock are from a totally different era and age to Ryan/Jack.

Like, it's also not the same lighthouse, or the same city. Symbolically they're connected, but not literally. It's also not the same man, even though they're symbolically connected. Booker being able to pull the leaver would be no different to Elizabeth doing the same thing. After all, she shares a genetic imprint of Booker.

I mean, Infinite is all about connecting the dots and forming relationships. But I think the Infinite/BioShock Booker/Ryan thing is purely symbolic. If there's any deeper connection there it's relatively meaningless as there's nothing more to it beyond symbolism.

Well if we consider time as one straight line, and Elizabeths killing booker at the point of baptism ceases all other realities, then Booker always was born, went to war, and drowned at a river during an attempted baptism by unknown forces.

The post-credit sequence then HAS to be some kind of dream as his life is fading or an afterlife type situation in which he is allowed to be with his daughter, absolved of his mistakes.

Right, but if Booker drowns during the baptism, rejecting the Comstock reality from ever happening, there's still a variable for Booker running from the baptism and going on to have Anna. The constant of Booker drowning isn't applicable there, as it only negates Comstock.

The way I look at it there's two important unresolved problems with the narrative from all this discussion:
a) Did Booker die during the accepted baptism, leaving room for rejected baptism? Or did he die before the baptism process?
and b) What is the significance of the post-credits ending? If Booker died during baptism, this can be reconciled as a variable. If Booker died before the baptism, how does this sequence fit?

If Booker died during baptism acceptance I see the story as complete. Booker never became Comstock as that universe is inherently paradoxal, cannot exist, and collapses upon attempted existence. You perceive a linear sequence of events because time and consciousness are complicated things. And from this we can draw philosophical conversation.

If Booker died before the baptism then the ending sequence doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a logistical view of a quantum multiverse and perception of time. We can draw different philosophical discussion from this, but I'm not particularly fond of this interpretation.

The ending stuff that Elizabeth says is interesting. When she says to die before the decision is made, I'm not sure if she's referring to the decisions to be baptised, or the decision to become Comstock. I also dislike the notion that he died before the baptism, yet the game represents this symbolically through baptism. But again, discussion can be drawn from that too.
 
I'm referring to Songbirds death in Bshock 1

Has been chalked up to:

A.) Reused sounds.
B.) A coincidence.
C.) Crazy conspiracy.

Obviously one or two of those are more likely than the others.

Anyway, like I was saying a few posts back, the bathysphere deal has to be deliberate. Again, Booker is the "Man" in the "Man, Lighthouse, Mission" situation, just like Jack. So him being able to use the controls is a perfect little touch. No, they aren't the same person, but they COULD be, or they could have been, etc. Infinite different possibilities.

Like, it's also not the same lighthouse, or the same city. Symbolically they're connected, but not literally. It's also not the same man, even though they're symbolically connected. Booker being able to pull the leaver would be no different to Elizabeth doing the same thing. After all, she shares a genetic imprint of Booker.

See this is where I disagree, I think its deliberate. I think the connection is that they are both the "man" in the same situation, like you said, symbolically. I don't think it would have been the same if Elizabeth had been controlling the Bathysphere. It's almost like you're mirroring the same descent you perform in the first game. Booker is just like Jack.
 

antonz

Member
I think that was one of my biggest problems with the story is that Booker is really nothing like Comstock. Just a short cutscene showing a segway between the two characters would've went a long way.

After thinking about it more. Thy really are the same. I mean Booker was a hateful killer. Problem is after his baptism the tears etc leads him to think Gods come to him to be the next Noah basically. And he flat out says yes how I am behaving is unfair to everyone and it is cruel but hell God was cruel when he flooded the earth and kicked adam and eve from Eden.

He basically sees if he's gods chosen one and god could be a dick then he is allowed to be a dick in the process of "saving" the world
 
We don't really know anything about Booker pre-baptism aside from his actions. Those actions are the dividing lines for him.

Whereas Booker DeWiit is ashamed of them, Comstock wears those days with pride.
 

Tokubetsu

Member
I'm sure this has been discussed, too, but before I go to bed:

So the world you play Booker in ultimately ends all other Booker's lives. You're born, you go through the war, you choose not to be baptized (while at least one other version of yourself is baptized and turns into Comstock), and then you go through the events of the game. Finally, you choose to go back to the original baptism and accept death by smothering.

So what I have a question on is how does the after-credits sequence take place? Booker's gone from birth to death and canceled out every other world. Or am I wrong on this?

Not ALL bookers drown and die there. Just the ones that will go on to be Comstock or a variation fo comstock. Elizabeth is essentially creating a checkpoint in time and space. Any of the bookers that accept baptisim are drowned/die and any that refuse go on and live their lives in whatever way they do. That bonus clip at the end reaffirms that. Booker goes on to be however he is just without interfence from the luteces and comstock.

At least thats how I and a few others see it.
 
After thinking about it more. Thy really are the same. I mean Booker was a hateful killer. Problem is after his baptism the tears etc leads him to think Gods come to him to be the next Noah basically. And he flat out says yes how I am behaving is unfair to everyone and it is cruel but hell God was cruel when he flooded the earth and kicked adam and eve from Eden.

He basically sees if he's gods chosen one and god could be a dick then he is allowed to be a dick in the process of "saving" the world

No, one is a grieving thug who's made some mistakes in his life, and the other is a racist tyrant who built a city in the sky. There really is no correlation, which while it certainly makes for a surprise ending, kind of leaves everything a bit empty.
 

antonz

Member
No, one is a grieving thug who's made some mistakes in his life, and the other is a racist tyrant who built a city in the sky. There really is no correlation, which while it certainly makes for a surprise ending, kind of leaves everything a bit empty.

Except Booker was what they'd call in that time period a Halfbreed who was desperate to prove his whiteness and slaughtered men, women and children Native Americans to the point of even scalping them. He was every bit a monster. He just didn't have something coming along to use to excuse his monsterness so became a shell of a man who survived on booze and gambling to the point of selling his own daughter
 

kenjisalk

Member
They become entirely different people through their different life experiences, but they are at their core the same person. A lot happens to Comstock Booker, and you can easily see how he became a tyrant with a god complex.
 

antonz

Member
They become entirely different people through their different life experiences, but they are at their core the same person. A lot happens to Comstock Booker, and you can easily see how he became a tyrant with a god complex.

Yep like I said earlier in a post.

The true Villain is Rosalinda Lutece. She causes all of the heartache, destruction etc. for everyone involved even her alternate self.
 

DatDude

Banned
dunno if anyone posted this, but I'm freaking out

UmpOi.gif



I mean are you kidding me? Are you fucking kidding me? This is...I, I can't handle this game anymore. I just can't. What Levine is to the gaming industry is like what Chaplin was to the film industry.

Just a revolutionary person in this medium.

Wow.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
See this is where I disagree, I think its deliberate. I think the connection is that they are both the "man" in the same situation, like you said, symbolically. I don't think it would have been the same if Elizabeth had been controlling the Bathysphere. It's almost like you're mirroring the same descent you perform in the first game. Booker is just like Jack.

Right, I agree with that. It's deliberately symbolic that Booker is the man. We know this the moment Elizabeth says "there's always a man". Booker and Comstock are the parallel to Jack and Ryan.

I'm mostly contesting a deeper interpretation of this, or I guess rejecting the value in over complicating the connection through genetics. Like when people say "Booker is Ryan!", when we'd also say "Booker is Comstock". The connection between the latter two is a world of difference in the context of the narrative than the former, even if they are connected symbolically. I feel over complicating Rapture's involvement is unnecessary and adds no depth to the plot beyond what it explicitly states: there's always a lighthouse, always a man, and always a city. Booker/Comstock are Ryan/Jack. But they're also not, at all.
 

DatDude

Banned
One thing though the game was very linear, I thought it was gonna have more choices, like that horse from the early trailer gameplay

It wouldn't have been much of a choice since the outcome would've been the same.

Remember all choices you do in this game aren't meant to be irrelevant.
 
Elizabeth did all that to prevent the people of Columbia of dying? Because she could easily just go to Paris with Booker after Columbia and live there.
 

BrokenBox

Member
Not ALL bookers drown and die there. Just the ones that will go on to be Comstock or a variation fo comstock. Elizabeth is essentially creating a checkpoint in time and space. Any of the bookers that accept baptisim are drowned/die and any that refuse go on and live their lives in whatever way they do. That bonus clip at the end reaffirms that. Booker goes on to be however he is just without interfence from the luteces and comstock.

At least thats how I and a few others see it.

I guess I don't understand the checkpoint thing. The way I understood it was that Elizabeth is transporting Booker to that place before there are two alternate possibilities (Booker/Comstock). Instead of either path, he is drowned so that none of the events that unfolded during the game ever have to occur. This prevents Columbia and Anna from being born. But that's how I'm currently interpreting it.
 
Right, I agree with that. It's deliberately symbolic that Booker is the man. We know this the moment Elizabeth says "there's always a man". Booker and Comstock are the parallel to Jack and Ryan.

I'm mostly contesting a deeper interpretation of this, or I guess rejecting the value in over complicating the connection through genetics. Like when people say "Booker is Ryan!", when we'd also say "Booker is Comstock". The connection between the latter two is a world of difference in the context of the narrative than the former, even if they are connected symbolically. I feel over complicating Rapture's involvement is unnecessary and adds no depth to the plot beyond what it explicitly states: there's always a lighthouse, always a man, and always a city. Booker/Comstock are Ryan/Jack. But they're also not, at all.

Oh, then I agree with you.

I just think the fact he can control the Bathysphere is significant in the fact that its reaffirming the connection of the characters but nothing more. Booker is still Booker. Jack is still Jack. Just because I have a alternate universe version of me, doesn't mean that I am him.
 
^^ 2 outcomes :-
either he Ian booker from time line where he is not a gambler and has kept Anna safe.

or

"u have been living in a dream world neo"
Chk the inside of ps3 box for yhe quote
 

antonz

Member
Elizabeth did all that to prevent the people of Columbia of dying? Because she could easily just go to Paris with Booker after Columbia and live there.

Elizabeth is basically near omnipotent for all intent purposes. She can see the alternate realties etc. If she and Booker had just left for Paris it wouldn't have stopped Comstock in millions of other realities from realizing his goal and killing millions if not billions in each reality.

She had to make sure the evil never happened.
 

DatDude

Banned
Just finished the game today, and after reading through the majority of this thread...bravo everyone. I wished the narrative could have been a little more interspersed throughout the game, rather than a huge info dump at the end, but I have to say the concepts and discussions have stuck with me far more than any game in recent memory. I loved the parallels to the other universes (i.e. the songbird is another universe's big daddy, etc.). I especially loved the parallel of the near final ending shot:

izxyF2ovv1tER_zpsec97c832.png


Bioshock-Ending_zps0cd58225.jpg


can't wait for the dlc!

Wow really nice allusion.

Damn this game is chock full of this shit. Incredibly impressive.
 

sn00zer

Member
Im starting to think Elizabeth was the Jack in this case and Booker was Andrew Ryan and symbolically Atlas....

-Elizabeth was a daughter to Booker similarly as Jack was a "son" of Ryan
-Both Elizabeth and Jack were essentially science experiments
-Both would would go on to do terrible things if the circumstances were met (bad ending of Bioshock 1 has Jack running Rapture and attacking the world with nukes, just a Elizabeth's "bad" ending was her ruling the city and attacking New York)
-In one of the realities Booker would go on to lead the revolution, just as Atlas led his
 

Tokubetsu

Member
I guess I don't understand the checkpoint thing. The way I understood it was that Elizabeth is transporting Booker to that place before there are two alternate possibilities (Booker/Comstock). Instead of either path, he is drowned so that none of the events that unfolded during the game ever have to occur. This prevents Columbia and Anna from being born. But that's how I'm currently interpreting it.

But even if our Booker is drowned, the events will still happen in other worlds. Remember that part of Elizabeth's power can be wish fulfilment (her mother coming back etc etc). She can not only cross worlds, she can also manipulate and twist them to a degree. Mixing herself and things she wants into them (sometimes to disastrous effect, the gunsmith and so on). After you free her from torture her goal is to stop comstock and since comstock, colombia and interdimensional fuckery go hand in hand she has to stop it in ALL worlds. Since the baptisim is the turning point in which Booker becomes comstock, the drowning of yourself there is symbolic (reaffirmed with all the different versions of Elizabeth there). All Elizabeths are drowning all the bookers that become comstock. Your fates (Comstock/Booker/Elizabeth) are interwined, none of you exist without the other two essentially (at least the booker we see in the game). With your/her/comstocks death Booker stays booker, and Elizabeth stays Anna to whatever fate awaits them. Cross dimension travel taken care of.


The main point is, you can't take anything after the lighthouse reveal literally. Everything after that point is symbolic/metaphorical w/e you want to call it. It's hard to represent infinite space and time stuff in anyway we can really fathom/grasp.
 

sn00zer

Member
Why does Booker not have powers if the twins obviously did?

EDIT: I love the fourth wall stuff with millions of people playing the games in different ways but always ending up with the same ending, as well as to the allusion to people replaying games again and again a little different every time
 

DatDude

Banned
Im starting to think Elizabeth was the Jack in this case and Booker was Andrew Ryan and symbolically Atlas....

-Elizabeth was a daughter to Booker similarly as Jack was a "son" of Ryan
-Both Elizabeth and Jack were essentially science experiments
-Both would would go on to do terrible things if the circumstances were met (bad ending of Bioshock 1 has Jack running Rapture and attacking the world with nukes, just a Elizabeth's "bad" ending was her ruling the city and attacking New York)
-In one of the realities Booker would go on to lead the revolution, just as Atlas led his

Symbolics is the key to this. So yes, thematically that's pretty much that.
 

Tokubetsu

Member
Why does Booker not have powers if the twins obviously did?

EDIT: I love the fourth wall stuff with millions of people playing the games in different ways but always ending up with the same ending, as well as to the allusion to people replaying games again and again a little different every time

Elizabeth was in two places at once (her finger and then the rest of her) and the twins were "scattered" (i believe they used that word in a diary) after Fink sabtoaged their machine. Which is why they were talking about perceiving time at once instead of in small slices (lives, lived, will live). Booker fully crossed over. He was out of place but he wasn't exactly spread across time and space like the twins or elizabeth.
 
Not ALL bookers drown and die there. Just the ones that will go on to be Comstock or a variation fo comstock. Elizabeth is essentially creating a checkpoint in time and space. Any of the bookers that accept baptisim are drowned/die and any that refuse go on and live their lives in whatever way they do. That bonus clip at the end reaffirms that. Booker goes on to be however he is just without interfence from the luteces and comstock.

At least thats how I and a few others see it.

No, she drowns the Bookers that even choose to go to the baptism at all. Whether they follow through or back out is irrelevant. She accounts for any situation like in which a Booker backs out but then goes to get baptized a day or two later instead (and become Comstock).

The infinite possibilities(universes) of Bookers who live random lives (but never go to the baptism after the war) are safe.
 

DatDude

Banned
Also Ryans Song Bird?

croppercapture1t1jei.png


Perhaps Levine had some sort of concept right from the get go with a mechanical bird in Rapture but had to cut it?

Or maybe he sort of had a blue sky idea that he just wanted to potentially put in for future references?

But interesting regardless...the screech in fort frolic...poster in fort frolic refering to "Song Bird"

Very, very intersting.
 

clav

Member
Why did Elizabeth wait until close to 1984 to attack New York?

Didn't the US have atom bombs and F14s then?

Pretty sure whatever she tried to do would be obliterated.
 
The game really is fantastic and possibly one of the best looking games of all time in terms of art direction.

Saying that though, I can't help but be a little disappointed at times that it doesn't even come close to matching the scale shown during the E3 2011 demo. It really looked like a city, whereas the finished game is more of a series of locations. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOMVnRAV17g

It's a real shame that basically everything shown there was cut... There are a few little things that show up in different ways but that entire open location is just gone... The skylines look much, much more exciting in that than the final game.
 

B33

Banned
What's the delineation between Booker and Comstock? They both have different ways of dealing with grief and living with their transgressions.

One sits in a room ruminating for years. The other lofts a city in the sky and builds a sect to join him in his newfound faith.

The disparities and similitudes are fascinating.
 

Tokubetsu

Member
No, she drowns the Bookers that even choose to go to the baptism at all. Whether they follow through or back out is irrelevant. She accounts for any situation like in which a Booker backs out but then goes to get baptized a day or two later instead.

The infinite possibilities(universes) of Bookers who live random lives (but never go to the baptism after the war) are safe.

Yes, because the booker we play, that she drowns is supposed to represent all the ones that become Comstock since he's tied to all of it still. I don't see how we're disagreeing? I agree that all the bookers against baptisim are saved. It's all the ones that would become comstock or some version of comstock that are drowned. Basically any and all bookers tied to the events that the game is centered around get drowned. That means booker who try to save her (because of course, he sold her off in the first place) and bookers that become comstock. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
 

DatDude

Banned
The game really is fantastic and possibly one of the best looking games of all time in terms of art direction.

Saying that though, I can't help but be a little disappointed at times that it doesn't even come close to matching the scale shown during the E3 2011 demo. It really looked like a city, whereas the finished game is more of a series of locations. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOMVnRAV17g

It's a real shame that basically everything shown there was cut... There are a few little things that show up in different ways but that entire open location is just gone...

You have to realize that what was shown there WASN'T EVEN A GAME.

Levine was all hyped after the showing, but he mentioned how after returning from E3 he was like "oh shit. now we actually have to make a game out of all this."

It was nothing but a glorified tech demo show casing what they had hoped to achieve with the game in terms of it's mechanics.
 

Lunar15

Member
OK, I was looking through the Steam community's screenshots, and this one's incredible, but being no computer expert, I'm not sure how it was taken:

Just realized: They took the same chunk of art for that one floating island, and then just copied it 3 times in the background. I never noticed, so it's not a problem, just kind of funny.
 
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