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[Devolution]

Is it really that outlandish of a thought?

It's exaggerated though. Is it really sexy at that point? And even if it were why are we looking at one character in a game rather than in aggregate. This is what I meant in the other thread about these discussions lacking nuance.

 

[Lime]

Finishing every post with "I thought you were better than that" because X poster doesn't agree with you just seems offensive.

I've discussed with pizzaroll before. In my experience, she/he isn't usually known for being short-sighted or prone to misrepresentation of arguments. Same thing goes for Fine Ham Abounds and SolidSnakeX. I remember some posters and their quality posting, because I (usually) respect them.

Meanwhile, the 50 other people I've been replying to I've not finished with "I thought you were X/Y/Z", so please don't msicharacterize my style of posting.

 

[SolidSnakex]

There is no solution, and that's sort of the issue. The only thing we, as a culture, can do going forward is make more universally acceptable characters; better written, better designed, and have more women in the design framework to create characters that appeal to the feminine ideal.

I don't think that you'll find a single person in this thread that doesn't agree with that. But is the Sorceress really even a problem? I believe that's the point that Devolution has tried to make (she can correct me if i'm wrong). It seems like she's been trying to make the point of going after bigger issues that clearly plague the industry that no one in their right mind could argue against (like what went on with Meagan and other females in the industry, for example), instead of focusing on something that can and is being viewed in various ways.

With Vanillaware in particular, their artstyle feels very specific. Even if there's a big of deviency in the original planning of said character, every design they come up with feels tailor made, never generic. They often feel like moving artbooks instead of proper games (which is why the majority of them have mechanics that are so wonky). It's not like games like Tera or Lineage that have half dressed dark elves for the sake of having half dressed dark elves that look the same as every other half dressed dark elf in every other similar game. I don't want Vanillaware to change what they're doing. But that being said, the Sorceress in particular is an easy target to pick on because...well just look at her. I actually find her design to be rather tacky, but I'm not going to sentence this game because I find her, and a few other designs, not to my liking.

See, this is why I think some have issues with why DC is being targeted over this. Of all the games in the industry it's somehow become the poster child for its portrayal of women (even though it has a wide variety of body types for women, which is rare) even though it doesn't seem like they're intentionally doing it to say "Hey, here's some big breasts, boys!". The Art-Eater link has been post numerous times through this thread, but it gives great insight into where the art inspirations for this game come from. This game seems to be a tribute to a genre Kamitani seems to love as well as a tribute to artists and art that he enjoys. And as I mentioned, it actually represents several body types for women. Yes, the Sorceress is busty, but the Elf is petite and the Amazon is very muscular. Shouldn't that be important to the discussion about how he's handled the art? Jason looked at the Sorceress and immediately jumped to the 14 year old boy accusation while completely ignoring how the other characters in the game look.

It seems odd to kind of single this game out. Penny Arcade summed things up pretty well

It’s very weird to pull up a story about a game with frankly visionary art and hear why it shouldn’t exist, or to hear what I supposedly fantasize about, or what kind of power I supposedly revere, and any attempt to defend oneself from these psychotic projections or to assert that creators may create is evidence of a dark seed sprouting in the heart.

Now secondly in terms of what the industry and developers can do in the future (this is mostly aimed at the general industry, not specifically Vanillaware):

1. Be more mindful of what people have to say. Maybe listen to some people who know a thing or two about sensitive issues
2. Recognize the cultural context of the medium you are putting your creation into.
3. Be aware of the history and prior events related to the design you're creating. You may avoid repeating the same mistake that others have already done.
4. Read a book or two about the cultural topic you are touching upon.

But in a topic about the Sorceress, i'm not sure how any of your points would've changed the way the Sorceress looks. She appears to be inspired by Frazetta's image of Sorceress. And many other characters appear to be inspired by other other artists that Kamitani admires. We keep hearing people say that a character can be sexual, but the problem arises when that's what all characters are. But that's not Dragon's Crown. The Sorceress is one character. She isn't like Blaze (SoR) where she's the only prominent female character in the game. Her body looks very different compared to the Amazon, and her body looks very different compared to the Elf.

I'm just confused about the whole situation, and in particular when a female character can and can't be sexy. Because the example I gave abose apparently isn't the case because the Sorcerress sparks this discussion. And if a female artist draws sexy women she's only doing it to make it in a male dominated market. So, like I said, it's all very confusing and nothing is really clear about what is and isn't acceptable.

 

[Pyrrhus]

I've discussed with pizzaroll before. In my experience, she/he isn't usually known for being short-sighted or prone to misrepresentation of arguments. Same thing goes for Fine Ham Abounds and SolidSnakeX. I remember some posters and their quality of posting.

I didn't actually say the bit you quoted as me. I guess I don't disagree with what that person said, though.

 

[QisTopTier]

I've discussed with pizzaroll before. In my experience, she/he isn't usually known for being short-sighted or prone to misrepresentation of arguments. Same thing goes for Fine Ham Abounds and SolidSnakeX. I remember some posters and their quality of posting.

I don't know, you seem more shortsighted than pizzaroll. Not everyone wants the same things, everyone would obviously be happy if there was more stuff for everyone else as well.

This entire time you are saying this isn't the case and anyone that likes one thing doesn't want stuff for the other group.

Yeah maybe they dont care for it to change something they already enjoy, but whats stopping the other group from playing something more suited to them? Nothing.

And singling out the sorc in dragons crown is dumb as hell.

 

[Risette]

I've discussed with pizzaroll before. In my experience, she/he isn't usually known for being short-sighted or prone to misrepresentation of arguments. Same thing goes for Fine Ham Abounds and SolidSnakeX. I remember some posters and their quality posting, because I (usually) respect them.

Meanwhile, the 50 other people I've been replying to I've not finished with "I thought you were X/Y/Z", so please don't msicharacterize my style of posting.

My quality of posts remain the same (very high) -- it is your posting that has detiorated.

You need to figure out when you've picked a bad target to illustrate an issue. This is one.

 

[Devolution]

I don't think that you'll find a single person in this thread that doesn't agree with that. But is the Sorceress really even a problem? I believe that's the point that Devolution has tried to make (she can correct me if i'm wrong). It seems like she's been trying to make the point of going after bigger issues that clearly plague the industry that no one in their right mind could argue against (like what went on with Meagan and other females in the industry, for example), instead of focusing on something that can and is being viewed in various ways.

Yes and that there are far better examples to prop up when it comes to sexual objectification alienating gamers. When people pick this Sorceress or Bayo it feels like they're going for the obvious visual impact and ignoring the context, exaggerated style and the agency of these characters. There are much better examples to be brought into the light to showcase issues of representation.

 

[erpg]

I know I'm very late (thank you Neogaf's worst posts) but... Lolicon! LOL.

Hahaha, surprised to see it was singled out. Hopefully I'm wrong, but it made me think he wasn't researching anything beyond emails and gifs. Equivalent to throwing fascist around because it's a 'naughty word'.

Easier to create a caricature that people can visualize and demonize. Side tracks the argument (as Leigh Alexander has mentioned) in the process, but they aren't that invested in it anyway.

 

[Lime]

I didn't actually say the bit you quoted as me. I guess I don't disagree with what that person said, though.

Quoting system went bonkers for some reason. I originally wrote to you that I thought I was being nice and respectable to people by replying or addressing them, especially since some complained that I didn't reply to them. I thought I was helping people, but if it's annoying I'll skimp out on the replies.

My quality of posts remain the same (very high) -- it is your posting that has detiorated.

You need to figure out when you've picked a bad target to illustrate an issue. This is one.

:lol No need to be derogatory.

But I think that's what people, and especially you, misunderstand about where I am coming from. It's not about illustrating an issue. It's about clarifying the motivations for complaints about the issue. During that process, I might address particular incorrect arguments or assumptions that are tangentially related to the general issue of gender imbalance in the games industry, but my overall reason is about trying to explain to people why this can be seen as a problem for some.

So you're incorrect about me "picking a target".

 

[spandexmonkey]

Perhaps it would help clean up some confusion if you provided some examples of appropriate sexualization?

 

[Pyrrhus]

Is the Sorceress really the hills you want to die on, though?

 

[canedaddy]

Wow @ this thread.

I've been looking forward to this game for a long, long, long time... sad to see it targeted by the PC crowd.

 

[Roubjon]

Is the Sorceress really the hills you want to die on, though?

I'd die on those hills, if you know what I mean.

 

[Weltall Zero]

You are both better posters than this.

Valuable? Are you serious? Come on, pizzaroll, you're supposed to be a better poster than this.

It would really be better for everyone if you stopped this paternalist condescending crap. It's unnerving me even when I'm none of the ones alluded to.

 

[QisTopTier]

I'd die on those hills, if you know what I mean.

Pretty sure they could kill you themselves

:lol No need to be derogatory.

But I think that's what people, and especially you, misunderstand about where I am coming from. It's not about illustrating an issue. It's about clarifying the motivations for complaints about the issue. During that process, I might address particular incorrect arguments or assumptions that are tangentially related to the general issue of gender imbalance in the games industry, but my overall reason is about trying to explain to people why this can be seen as a problem for some.

So you're incorrect about me "picking a target".

So you are pretty much admitting that you are blowing hot air into the subject. Because almost everyone you argued with already acknowledges the thing's you are trying to "teach" them about. Then they ask how you would fix things then you avoid answering that and continue on like a broken record.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

But I think that's what people, and especially you, misunderstand about where I am coming from. It's not about illustrating an issue. It's about clarifying the motivations for complaints about the issue. During that process, I might address particular incorrect arguments or assumptions that are tangentially related to the general issue of gender imbalance in the games industry, but my overall reason is about trying to explain to people why this can be seen as a problem for some.

So you're incorrect about me "picking a target".

Are you truly that full of hubris that you think anyone in this thread actually needed your explanation to understand why some people may have a problem with the Sorceress's design? You can't seriously think all of us in here defending the design's existence are ignorant to the logic behind why some people may find it offensive.

I'm increasingly getting the feeling that you're just in here to inflate your own ego and parade around quotes from studies you like to read as if they are some end-all be-all authority.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Not when there seems to be a general problem in mainstream games culture in regards to non-white, non-heterosexual, and female representations.

A "problem" as perceived by yet another group of people who, surprise surprise, have opinions, just like everyone else. On the other hand, there is no problem as perceived by me and another group of people.

So I see nothing compelling enough to cause anyone to distinguish this from the myriad other situations where people have different opinions.

Why does this situation merit special treatment? "Because me and another group of people don't like it" is not a valid reason

 

[Lime]

EDIT: The tone is getting pretty hostile right now. :/

Is the Sorceress really the hills you want to die on, though?

I kind of don't like that you represent this as some battle with the metaphor of dying on some hill. Like this is some crusade that you choose to die for. It pollutes what my intentions with participating in this thread are. Just my thoughts on it.

And I've already stated my position about the Sorceress design in itself numerous time and my reason for posting in this thread. People should be able to discern between different levels of the issue, as well as reasoning and explanations for the various aspects and motivations of different people voicing their criticism of the design. As such, I don't think there ever was any "dying for a cause" involved in this discussion, at least for my part.

It would really be better for everyone if you stopped this paternalist condescending crap. It's unnerving me even when I'm none of the ones alluded to.

Whoa, slow your horses. Read above.

 

[Lain]

So guys, there is really no 1920x1080 version of that Gwynevere image posted earlier?
That saddens me if so =(

 

[Deleted member 17706]

EDIT: The tone is getting pretty hostile right now. :/

Yeah... I wonder why, Lime.

You've stated what your intentions in this thread are. Something about educating us folks about why people might feel offended with the Sorceress's design. You're here to make us aware of certain things, and an unfortunate side effect of this is that people are reacting negatively in the light of learning something new. You seem to think it's a problem that, in the light of this new knowledge you've chosen to bequeath upon us, we aren't changing our opinions to match yours (and that of the people who are offended by the Sorceress).

 

[QisTopTier]

Yeah... I wonder why, Lime.

It's because everyone is trying to defend their Lolicon fantasy!

No but honestly if you act high and mighty and down talk people. Don't be shocked if they act hostile in return. Common sense. You literally called people idiots earlier, though it was worded a bit more nicely

 

[Weltall Zero]

Second of all, just to address the topic of value between the two groups. Group A feels harmed by the existence of the design. Group B is not harmed by the design not existing (or being altered in more respectable ways). Is it really that necessary to have yet another over-sexualized female character primarily aimed to the pleasure of some men?

Why is what Group A "feels" somehow more valuable than what Group B does? Further, why is it that Group A gets to decide what is good or not for them, but YOU get to decide whether Group B is harmed or not by something not existing? The problem with that thinking is that censorship harms EVERYONE. There is a huge distance from someone disliking or even being offended by something, and deciding that that something should not exist. If everyone has their way with regard to what offends them, the result is an incredibly sterile grounds for art and thought; being able to publish potentially offensive work, regardless of its supposed intrinsic value or lack thereof, is one of the most important parts of freedom of expression. Have you read Fahrenheit 451? I think you should read at least its premise.

it's kind of funny because I started out disliking these designs and wishing they would be changed, but posts such as yours have made me realize the danger and harm in this (probably the opposite of what you intended!). Bring on the freaks, I say.

 

[Metrotab]

Why is what Group A "feels" somehow more valuable than what Group B does? Further, why is it that Group A gets to decide what is good or not for them, but YOU get to decide whether Group B is harmed or not by something not existing? The problem with that thinking is that censorship harms EVERYONE. There is a huge distance from someone disliking or even being offended by something, and deciding that that something should not exist. If everyone has their way with regard to what offends them, the result is an incredibly sterile grounds for art and thought; being able to publish potentially offensive work, regardless of its supposed intrinsic value or lack thereof, is one of the most important parts of freedom of expression. Have you read Fahrenheit 451? I think you should read at least its premise.

it's kind of funny because I started out disliking these designs and wishing they would be changed, but posts such as yours have made me realize the danger and harm in this (probably the opposite of what you intended!). Bring on the freaks, I say.

You said what I wanted to say in a much better way. Artistic freedom is incredibly important, and a beautiful value that should be cherished.

 

[FartOfWar]

The gaming industry is one of the worst for women. Only a fraction of the designers are female, the wage gap are very big compared to similar industries. In that context, these are not shadows, this is all there is in gaming right now - Over sexualized females for the enjoyment of the boys club that is the gaming community. And maybe you think I'm wrong, but I guess we'll both try and combat the sexism of this industry in our own way.

Although discrimination exists, just as cancer exists, nevertheless intergroup differences cannot be assumed a priori to be due to discrimination, any more than deaths can be assumed a priori to be due to cancer. You're treating beliefs as axioms essential to a desired conclusion rather than as hypotheses subject to verification. It could be the case that sexism explains the fact that there are fewer female game designers than male game designers. But that requires empirical demonstration. You've probably heard the expression "examine hidden assumptions." Also, before we can even demonstrate that sexism explains the wage gap, we need to verify the wage gap's very existence when held constant against other variables (in that respect the RPS-cited study does not pass professional muster).

 

[Lime]

Yeah... I wonder why, Lime.

Why? Because I disagree about an issue? I've been kind and forthcoming in my posts and not once I've used any ad hominems, so I don't see any need for the sudden hostility against me.

It doesn't produce a very hospitable environment, I can tell you that

 

[mullet2000]

Gabe from Penny Arcade had a bit of a debate over this on twitter last night it seems:

I thought his retort was kind of funny. There's....pages upon pages of this argument on his twitter timeline if you really want to go look.

 

[Moral Panic]

My quality of posts remain the same (very high) -- it is your posting that has detiorated.

You need to figure out when you've picked a bad target to illustrate an issue. This is one.

You completely misrepresented his post with a shit one line retort that was completely off base.

 

[Haly]

Gabe had a "debate".

 

[Orin GA]

Nope, not reading all this!

*Walks out door*

 

[QisTopTier]

Why? Because I disagree about an issue? I've been kind and forthcoming in my posts and not once I've used any ad hominems, so I don't see any need for the sudden hostility against me.

It doesn't produce a very hospitable environment, I can tell you that

No it's because you post stuff like this.

1. Be more mindful of what people have to say. Maybe listen to some people who know a thing or two about sensitive issues
2. Recognize the cultural context of the medium you are putting your creation into.
3. Be aware of the history and prior events related to the design you're creating. You may avoid repeating the same mistake that others have already done.
4. Read a book or two about the cultural topic you are touching upon.

Among other high horse full of yourself sounding stuff.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Why? Because I disagree about an issue? I've been kind and forthcoming in my posts and not once I've used any ad hominems, so I don't see any need for the sudden hostility against me.

It doesn't produce a very hospitable environment, I can tell you that

Personally, your replies have been very condescending and it feels like you're automatically assuming your opinion is the right one.

 

[Devolution]

Gabe had a "debate".

Twitter debate no less. Someone tell him it's "privilege."

 

[mullet2000]

Gabe had a "debate".

Twitter debate no less. Someone tell him it's "privilege."

Not saying either side of the debate was particularly good, I just thought it was amusing.

 

[Haly]

It's better to not take Gabe seriously, ever, cause he's always incendiary. Tycho, despite his insufferable prose, is a much more levelheaded mouthpiece for PA.

Yeah I know, I was just poking fun at Gabe. He's not helping at all.

 

[RMI]

Twitter debate no less. Someone tell him it's "privilege."

why do you think Tycho writes the comic!?

 

[mullet2000]

It's better to not take Gabe seriously, ever, cause he's always incendiary. Tycho, despite his insufferable prose, is a much more levelheaded mouthpiece for PA.

I honestly don't know much of anything about either of them. Good to know, I suppose.

 

[erpg]

It's better to not take Gabe seriously, ever, cause he's always incendiary. Tycho, despite his insufferable prose, is a much more levelheaded mouthpiece for PA.

Yeah I know, I was just poking fun at Gabe. He's not helping at all.

Honestly, as a guy who creates for a living, his opinion is pretty important, even if it's restricted to 140 characters. This kind of policing has affected him and other artists in the past.

 

[Devolution]

It's better to not take Gabe seriously, ever, cause he's always incendiary. Tycho, despite his insufferable prose, is a much more levelheaded mouthpiece for PA.

Yeah I know, I was just poking fun at Gabe. He's not helping at all.

There should just be a collective movement to ignore the incendiary assholes from now on when it comes to this issue. I'm tired of them.

 

[QisTopTier]

There should just be a collective movement to ignore the incendiary assholes from now on when it comes to this issue. I'm tired of them.

I don't think that will ever happen sadly, people in general pay attention to the loudest responses, which in return gets responded to by people of the same nature eventually and it snowballs from there.

Meanwhile the people on either side of the argument trying to work things out get drowned out in the collective waste.

 

[Haly]

Honestly, as a guy who creates for a living, his opinion is pretty important, even if it's restricted to 140 characters. This kind of policing has affected him and other artists in the past.

Oh, sure, but what I mean is that Gabe is rarely ever interested in actual debate and lives to get under people's skin. Whenever PA had run-ins with censorship (American Greetings, dick wolves), he's always just made it worse for PA through his antics. Tycho's always had to bail him and the comic out.

 

[Gokurakumaru]

Although discrimination exists, just as cancer exists, nevertheless intergroup differences cannot be assumed a priori to be due to discrimination, any more than deaths can be assumed a priori to be due to cancer. You're treating beliefs as axioms essential to a desired conclusion rather than as hypotheses subject to verification. It could be the case that sexism explains the fact that there are fewer female game designers than male game designers. But that requires empirical demonstration. You've probably heard the expression "examine hidden assumptions."

This doesn't get said enough. My company has probably a 50/50 mix of men to women, but the IT department is almost entirely men. By contrast accountants and auditors are predominantly female. People pursue different jobs for different reasons, but our IT department is not light on females because we're sexist.

The same goes for wage studies that look at industries rather than roles and experience, and ignore little things like maternity leave impacting a women's earning potential (in the same way it would for a man if he took 12 months out from his career).

 

[Lime]

No it's because you post stuff like this.

Among other high horse full of himself sounding stuff.

I am sorry for not understanding you, but how is that in any way offensive? I think you are projecting way too much into the stuff you read if you think those harmless and down-to-earth suggestions offend you.

Personally, your replies have been very condescending and it feels like you're automatically assuming your opinion is the right one.

I apologize if people are hurt by my clarifications. But I even insert smileys into my post to show that there's nothing to be offended about! How can you not love it?

I personally don't think my posts are condescending (especially compared to how posters like pizzaroll or Zefah get away with off-hand derogatory remarks), but I'll try to remember my rhetoric next time I correct false assumptions about a well-proven issue.

But I'm exhausted and I don't like some of the personal remarks I am receiving in this thread, so I'll leave it be for now. Please PM me if you have any upstanding remaining issues.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Why? Because I disagree about an issue? I've been kind and forthcoming in my posts and not once I've used any ad hominems, so I don't see any need for the sudden hostility against me.

It doesn't produce a very hospitable environment, I can tell you that

You haven't used ad hominems?

No, all my posts are on point and relevant. My motivation for reading this thread is mostly because of the dumb design and I recognize there are bigger fish to fry. My participation is merely about correcting people's misguided and false assumptions about how the world works.

I think it isn't even about the boulder having privilege. It's about people not being open toward other people's opinions and feelings by simply refusing to be introspective about one's ingrained ideas. Some people simply lack the capability to assess their own cultural assumptions when presented with other social groups' feelings of marginalization.

When people say incorrect statements that maintain the status quo, I have to speak out. Unfortunately the same misguided and incorrect statements are being made again and again, and so the same valid and sound counter-arguments get thrown on the table again and again.

Yes. Yes. We're all uneducated fools ripe for your words of wisdom about the world.

Western markets are still exposed to it, and the design is still a symptom of a larger problem. Its emphasis on Asian consumers is irrelevant to the criticism of it.

While this is an aside, this one was in response to my pointing out that this game is primarily targeted toward Japanese people. The fact that you immediately equated "Japanese" with "Asians at large" just shows much you lack when it comes to capacity for nuance.

Don't worry, I'll stop after this post and leave everyone to be. And I won't be in the OT talking about the design - it's your Christmas, I'm not going to shit on it

Since my contributions to this thread seem to be misinterpreted and misunderstood in regards to the design of the Sorceress, I'll leave the discussion (and my long-winded replies probably give the wrong perception of my intentions).

Another aside, but I couldn't resist. Oh the oh-so-common "I'm saying my piece and bailing" threat from people with a superiority complex who find themselves against great opposition.

Valuable? Are you serious? Come on, pizzaroll, you're supposed to be a better poster than this. This isn't about which opinion is "better" or more "valuable".

1. Was your original post a reply to ALL my posts? No. You specifically addressed my clarification on SolidsnakeX and Fine Ham Abounds.
2. Was my reply to your post a reference to my statement about how the existence of B doesn't negate A. Yes.

Seriously, I thought you were better than this. I have no idea how you think that it was "all I'm saying throughout this thread."

I can understand why people become defensive as an initial reaction when they haven't been made aware of how people different from themselves experience things. It is a problem when some people retain their incorrect position

Some people complained that I didn't reply to them, and when a lot of people subsequently quote or attempt to counter-argue my posts, I thought I was being a really nice person by responding to most, if not all of them. i'll stop it if it annoys people, I just thought I was helping them.

I've discussed with pizzaroll before. In my experience, she/he isn't usually known for being short-sighted or prone to misrepresentation of arguments. Same thing goes for Fine Ham Abounds and SolidSnakeX. I remember some posters and their quality posting, because I (usually) respect them.

Meanwhile, the 50 other people I've been replying to I've not finished with "I thought you were X/Y/Z", so please don't msicharacterize my style of posting.

Great implication that you don't respect anyone else you're replying to right here...

Anyway, that took way too much time. You may not be making overt personal attacks, but you're certainly implying that everyone in here who disagrees with you is either ignorant, or "part of the problem," because they are retaining their original positions despite your enlightening them about gender issues.

You come off as extremely arrogant and talk down to everyone. There should be no confusion as to why the air might turn hostile toward you when you present yourself in such a manner and act is if you are the only one with all of the facts.

 

[Metrotab]

I'll try to remember my rhetoric next time I correct false assumptions about a well-proven issue.

I wasn't aware it was well-proven that Dragon's Crown's character design was sexist, mysoginistic or demeaning to women.

Could you show me the evidence?

 

[blurrygil]

I'm just gonna chime in, on topic, that I'm very excited for this game and the class character. Really, I'm stoked to use them all.

It's a crying shame that this thread has spiraled completely off topic and has become absolutely dominated by another. Which by looks of the posts from of the majority, are long tired of. This should've become it's own topic by Page 3 or 4, but no, people have to finish their forum battles to the bitter end.

Personally, I absolutely love the art of her and all of the characters. For me, it's just that, art. She's gorgeous, much like every other character design that I have seen so far with the game. More so, the gameplay looks absolutely fantastic. It's more than just an homage to the Capcom and SEGA renditions of action-RPGs, it's a beautiful and exciting evolution of it. I cannot wait until it releases and I hope it's available on as many platforms as possible, so everyone has a chance to experience it.

If you don't like it, that's ok. In fact, I'm glad you state your opinions and feelings. However, fighting for every little point that you want make just comes off poorly for you. Going on and on and on for posts at a time just isn't necessary and really kills the "mood" of the thread, if you will. This goes for both sides of this side debate. But as it stands, I feel the spirit of this thread was long lost--which was to discuss, as gaming enthusiasts, the new news of this game and character.

 

[Mr.Monitor]

I'm just gonna chime in, on topic, that I'm very excited for this game and the class character. Really, I'm stoked to use them all.

It's a crying shame that this thread has spiraled completely off topic and has become absolutely dominated by another. Which by looks of the posts from of the majority, are long tired of. This should've become it's own topic by Page 3 or 4, but no, people have to finish their forum battles to the bitter end.

Personally, I absolutely love the art of her and all of the characters. For me, it's just that, art. She's gorgeous, much like every other character design that I have seen so far with the game. More so, the gameplay looks absolutely fantastic. It's more than just an homage to the Capcom and SEGA renditions of action-RPGs, it's a beautiful and exciting evolution of it. I cannot wait until it releases and I hope it's available on as many platforms as possible, so everyone has a chance to experience it.

If you don't like it, that's ok. In fact, I'm glad you state your opinions and feelings. However, fighting for every little point that you want make just comes off poorly for you. Going on and on and on for posts at a time just isn't necessary and really kills the "mood" of the thread, if you will. This goes for both sides of this side debate. But as it stands, I feel the spirit of this thread was long lost--which was to discuss, as gaming enthusiasts, the new news of this game and character.

Good stuff.

 

[QisTopTier]

But as it stands, I feel the spirit of this thread was long lost--which was to discuss, as gaming enthusiasts, the new news of this game and character.

Pretty much, and everytime it gets brought back it goes right back to stupid town 10 post later

 

[LiK]

I'm just gonna chime in, on topic, that I'm very excited for this game and the class character. Really, I'm stoked to use them all.

It's a crying shame that this thread has spiraled completely off topic and has become absolutely dominated by another. Which by looks of the posts from of the majority, are long tired of. This should've become it's own topic by Page 3 or 4, but no, people have to finish their forum battles to the bitter end.

Personally, I absolutely love the art of her and all of the characters. For me, it's just that, art. She's gorgeous, much like every other character design that I have seen so far with the game. More so, the gameplay looks absolutely fantastic. It's more than just an homage to the Capcom and SEGA renditions of action-RPGs, it's a beautiful and exciting evolution of it. I cannot wait until it releases and I hope it's available on as many platforms as possible, so everyone has a chance to experience it.

If you don't like it, that's ok. In fact, I'm glad you state your opinions and feelings. However, fighting for every little point that you want make just comes off poorly for you. Going on and on and on for posts at a time just isn't necessary and really kills the "mood" of the thread, if you will. This goes for both sides of this side debate. But as it stands, I feel the spirit of this thread was long lost--which was to discuss, as gaming enthusiasts, the new news of this game and character.

i agree with you.

 

[Giolon]

Maybe there should be a new thread started to talk about the actual Sorceress trailer and the game instead of how badly the Sorceress's grotesque designs are/aren't hurting women/the game industry, how anybody who likes the character are misogynist pigs and/or pedophiles, and redirect anybody who wants to talk about the latter stuff to this thread.

 

[LiK]

Maybe there should be a new thread started to talk about the actual Sorceress trailer and the game instead of how badly the Sorceress's grotesque designs are/aren't hurting women/the game industry, and redirect anybody who wants to talk about the latter to this thread.

nah, that's okay. maybe they'll migrate over to the Amazon thread when that trailer comes out.