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[spandexmonkey]

Exactly. Or the constant skimpy ass armor for female characters in MMOs versus dudes being completely covered up. Then the excuse is "it's fantasy." Oh it's only fantasy in regards to the recreations of the female characters, uhuh. They have mystical invisible armor that keeps arrows away from their thighs, ass, chest and mid-drift. Although I don't really like Tera's solution where everyone looks like a stripper.

But I love Tera's solution! Thankfully there's a selection of games to cater to various tastes. Rift was probably the worst offender I've seen in an mmo where women get skimpy outfits while guys wear full suits, feels really out of place.

 

[Skilletor]

I liked the part where she teleported and then blew stuff up.

 

[Devolution]

But I love Tera's solution! Thankfully there's a selection of games to cater to various tastes. Rift was probably the worst offender I've seen in an mmo where women get skimpy outfits while guys where full suits, feels really out of place.

You love it but that's cool, it's at least equitable. Oh god yeah Rift. These are the things we should be talking about really, they're insidious and keep recurring. A one off game such as this with obvious artistic references and a panache for exaggerated body types just fails on so many levels.

 

[Rodney McKay]

I didn't say there wasn't sexual appeal, but it's not a sexual organ. Tons of non-sexual parts have sexual appeal. Comparing it to a penis is silly, Q's quote about camel toes would be more in line.

The definition of the organ isn't the issue, it's the accentuation OF the organ that people are having an issue with.
No, breasts are not a component of the act of reproduction, but they are a part of the body that is treated as "private" and both are treated as "bigger=better" by the media.

I don't know if there are less men stuffing their pants compared to woman padding their bras, but the action of both is attempting to have similar results (increased sexual appeal).

 

[Metrotab]

The definition of the organ isn't the issue, it's the accentuation OF the organ that people are having an issue with.
No, breasts are not a component of the act of reproduction, but they are a part of the body that is treated as "private" and both are treated as "bigger=better" by the media.

I don't know if there are less men stuff their pants compared to woman padding their bras, but the action is attempting to have similar results (increased sexual appeal).

I'm pretty sure muscles have this going for them too.

 

[Devolution]

Personally I like ass. If you put more unnecessary gratuitous ass shots of male characters, and maybe a couple in thongs, and paraded these around, I think maybe guys would understand a bit better.

 

[Odrion]

You love it but that's cool, it's at least equitable. Oh god yeah Rift. These are the things we should be talking about really, they're insidious and keep recurring. A one off game such as this with obvious artistic references and a panache for exaggerated body types just fails on so many levels.

But you don't understand! She has really big cans.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Breasts: Secondary female sex characteristic
Musculature: Secondary male sex charcateristic

Kamitani exaggerating hands and arms (within the game):

Kamitani exaggerating feet (another game);

they don't look exaggerated on their own to me, it looks like they're a lot larger in relation to the head because he has a style of exaggerated musculature that he needs to fit with. like how ryu and ken have big feet because their bodies are so jacked. which makes the boob thing even weirder since the sorcereress isn't muscular.

also, the hostility in this thread is shameful. unfortunately there doesnt seem to be a dedicated kings crown art controversy thread but any random neogaf user has just as much right to discuss that aspect of the trailer in this thread as others have a right to discuss the gameplay. if someone wants to make a more focused thread for discussing either then have at it.

 

[Dram]

When's the next character trailer going to be released?

 

[SolidSnakex]

When's the next character trailer going to be released?

Early tomorrow morning. Should be the Elf or the Amazon.

 

[Skilletor]

When's the next character trailer going to be released?

Tomorrow, I believe.

Early tomorrow morning. Should be the Elf or the Amazon.

Why not the wizard?

 

[Uthred]

haha, the intellectual dishonesty is going to make me barf. surely breasts have never been a sexual symbol!

surely not!

Aku said it best: being intentionally thick, dishonest, and unnecessarily obtuse is what drives the discussion. You're not stupid; don't talk to your fellow GAFers like they are.

Surely breasts are a secondary sexual characteristic while penises are a primary one? No-one's saying breasts arent a sexual symbol, theyre saying screaming "WHAT ABOUT THE DICKS!?" is a false equivalency. Why gosh, doing it might even be considered "being intentionally thick, dishonest, and unnecessarily obtuse". The male characters secondary sexual characteristics are equally exaggerated.

Not that it really matters because given the context of female representation in the medium even an actual "like to like" comparison is relatively un-nuanced but at least its an honest comparison

 

[QisTopTier]

Early tomorrow morning. Should be the Elf or the Amazon.

I'm hoping for amazon because I want to see how her speed up stuff works

Why not the wizard?

The genders are taking turns

 

[-COOLIO-]

No it's pretty consistant with his style

i cant help but feel like the sorceresses' breasts stick out like a sore thumb amongst all those pics, but to each their own.

 

[Devolution]

But you don't understand! She has really big cans.

I know you're being facetious but that's where it started to careen into insulting women, their likes and their body types. It's obvious the people so far discussing the issue with this character (who have a problem with the character) don't want to deal in any nuance or talk about it in a manner that doesn't alienate women. It's really disappointing. Yes she's sexually objectified but what does it mean in the broader context of this game? Why aren't they looking at the characters in aggregate when they discuss her? It's just so intellectually dishonest. As someone who wants to see better representations of women and deals with this issue, this kind of deconstructing of a game/character/art style is lazy and set up so that any nuanced position is automatically wrong.

 

[QisTopTier]

i cant help but feel like the sorceresses' breasts stick out like a sore thumb amongst all those pics, but to each their own.

Do you like boobs?

But honestly she doesnt stick out to me because I know how he draws his necromancers/sorcs

 

[Skilletor]

i cant help but feel like the sorceresses' breasts stick out like a sore thumb amongst all those pics, but to each their own.

SO you haven't seen his drawings in other games?

 

[Ferrio]

The definition of the organ isn't the issue, it's the accentuation OF the organ that people are having an issue with.
No, breasts are not a component of the act of reproduction, but they are a part of the body that is treated as "private" and both are treated as "bigger=better" by the media.

I don't know if there are less men stuffing their pants compared to woman padding their bras, but the action of both is attempting to have similar results (increased sexual appeal).

And there's tons of accentuation in all the characters. It's hilarious that this argument is happening on an artstyle that's so exaggerated to the point of ridiculousness that is almost impossible to take seriously. There's tons more examples in games that SHOULD be looked at, and it's doing the community a disservice to focus in this silly instance.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Personally I like ass. If you put more unnecessary gratuitous ass shots of male characters, and maybe a couple in thongs, and paraded these around, I think maybe guys would understand a bit better.

This reminds me when my wife got big into watching Queer as Folk. I'd watch it along side her most nights, but there were a few scenes where I was like, okay I think thats enough man ass for one night. She just laughed and kept watching it, I'd go play a game or something. I was never offended, was glad she enjoyed it (hogged our Netflix queue for some months too).

 

[SolidSnakex]

I'm hoping for amazon because I want to see how her speed up stuff works

The Dwarf was surprisingly fast (I thought he'd be more of a slow moving tank), so the Amazon should be really fast. I'm really interested in the Elf video since her character description suggests that she has the steepest learning curve.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Do you like boobs?

i do :3, but that's not why they stick out!

 

[Odrion]

SO you haven't seen his drawings in other games?

he called the game 'king's crown'. this is how much knowledge he has on the subject

 

[Metrotab]

i cant help but feel like the sorceresses' breasts stick out like a sore thumb amongst all those pics, but to each their own.

I remember way way back when the first art got released, that the Amazon was the character most people were noticing actually. That kind of muscled Amazonian built is pretty rare in gaming, and maybe even media overall.

 

[LiK]

Tomorrow, I believe.




Why not the wizard?

Maybe they wanna switch between male and females.

i do :3, but that's not why they stick out!

So you're not a fan of Adam Hughes?

 

[-COOLIO-]

I remember way way back when the first art got released, that the Amazon was the character most people were noticing actually. That kind of muscled Amazonian built is pretty rare in gaming, and maybe even media overall.

i actually really like the amazonian design. sure she's in a bikini but a muscular woman is very striking in medieval fantasy art. and the breasts look right for the design.

 

[Zoe]

Second of all, just to address the topic of value between the two groups. Group A feels harmed by the existence of the design. Group B is not harmed by the design not existing (or being altered in more respectable ways). Is it really that necessary to have yet another over-sexualized female character primarily aimed to the pleasure of some men?

If you eradicate characters that offend Group A, you are harming the people in Group B (which includes women, BTW) who enjoy playing such characters.

But honestly she doesnt stick out to me because I know how he draws his necromancers/sorcs
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080430013208/odinsphere/images/2/29/QueenOdetteNetherworldOS2.JPG[/IMG]

I just gotta say, that's an awesome design. Looks like I've got some catching up to do.

 

[Haly]

like how ryu and ken have big feet because their bodies are so jacked.

Fighter's "feet".

Odin from Odin Sphere

Tengus from Muramasa

which makes the boob thing even weirder since the sorcereress isn't muscular.

Please stop trying to apply some sort of "design logic" to Kamitani without knowing about his history. Exaggerating one body part over another to add whimsy and fantasy to his characters is something he's been doing for a decade.

I'm tired of people coming into this thread to spout some ignorant crap without reading through the thread to see their points being rehashed over and over again. This is the ONLY reason this thread's gotten to 44 pages. Every time the debate dies down and we start talking about the actual game and characters, a new wave of posters who are too lazy to skim the thread come in parading their tired arguments to stir shit up all over again.

If you seriously want to get into this debate then at least have the courtesy to educate yourself on its progression, instead of touting your opinion like it fucking matters, like it's original, like it hasn't been paraded up and torn down over and over again over for the last 2000 posts.

You're not adding anything new to the discussions, you're not offering some sort of clever insight into the debate, you're just thread shitting.

 

[Uthred]

What games the bottom character with the skull staff from? Or is it just some random piece he did?

 

[Skilletor]

What games the bottom character with the skull staff from? Or is it just some random piece he did?

Grimgrimoire. I think that's it because it's the only game of his I haven't played and I don't recognize it.

 

[Risette]

:lol No need to be derogatory.

But I think that's what people, and especially you, misunderstand about where I am coming from. It's not about illustrating an issue. It's about clarifying the motivations for complaints about the issue. During that process, I might address particular incorrect arguments or assumptions that are tangentially related to the general issue of gender imbalance in the games industry, but my overall reason is about trying to explain to people why this can be seen as a problem for some.

So you're incorrect about me "picking a target".

So back to admitting to thread derailing with a hearty layer of doublespeak...

The air turned hostile because people have decided that they don't want to hear opinions or facts that run contrary to their worldview anymore and they must take shots at anyone who talks out of line.

lol, yes, anyone who strongly disagrees must be feeling discomfort from their "worldview" being crumbled by Facts

he called the game 'king's crown'. this is how much knowledge he has on the subject

King's Field was pretty cool

wait, this isn't the dark souls thread. but we were just talking about it...

 

[Odrion]

If you seriously want to get into this debate then at least have the courtesy to educate yourself on its progression, instead of touting your opinion like it fucking matters, like it's original, like it hasn't been paraded up and torn down over and over again over for the last 2000 posts.

You're not adding anything new to the discussions, you're not offering some sort of clever insight into the debate, you're just thread shitting.

I could. Or I could just click "add reply", type "Man she has big cans, this is really horrible guys!" And then pat myself on the back for thinking I'm a part of an important and progressive movement without actually understanding it.

 

[Haly]

What games the bottom character with the skull staff from? Or is it just some random piece he did?

Grimgrimoire.

 

[Metrotab]

It seems some people have come into this thread with the wrong angle.

This thread is not another incarnation of "sexual objectification isn't bad because it happens to men too!"

This thread is "that kind of scrutiny doesn't apply to this particular game because of reasons".

 

[-COOLIO-]

If you seriously want to get into this debate then at least have the courtesy to educate yourself on its progression, instead of touting your opinion like it fucking matters, like it's original, like it hasn't been paraded up and torn down over and over again over for the last 2000 posts.

You're not adding anything new to the discussions, you're not offering some sort of clever insight into the debate, you're just thread shitting.

Dear GAF police,

I did skim the thread first, and i still feel the way i do about the art. and if you want to pinpoint the point in this thread where someone said they find it ridiculous that people are being accused as being anti-feminist because they find the art distasteful then point me to it and ill gravel at your feet for forgiveness because i missed that particular post in a 20 page thread.

if you're so worried about thread shitting, then start a new thread for either respective camp. and jesus fucking christ, learn to discuss things like a considerate human being, dont get pissed because you chose to be this games defender of honor that's tasked with battling hordes of posters and you cant help but get more pissed at each following dissenter. pretend you were talking to people in real fucking life.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Dear GAF police,

I did skim the thread first, and i still feel the way i do about the art. and if you want to pinpoint the point in this thread where someone said they find it ridiculous that people are being accused as being anti-feminist because they find the art distasteful then point me to it and ill gravel at your feet for forgiveness because i missed that particular post in a 20 page thread.

if you're so worried about thread shitting, then start a new thread for either respective camp. and jesus fucking christ, learn to discuss things like a considerate human being, dont get pissed because you chose to be this games defender of honor that's tasked with battling hordes of posters and you cant help but get more pissed at each following dissenter. pretend you were talking to people in real fucking life.

What pisses people off is that there are some people who actually want to, you know, DISCUSS THE GAME, but they can't because the moral crusade has to come in and shit all over the thread with stuff that frankly, the people for whom this thread was intended are not interested in and don't care. If people want to discuss the moral implications of the sorceress character, or anything for that matter, THEY should be the ones creating a new thread since THEY are the ones that are wanting to talk about something that this thread was not intended for.

To add insult to injury, that thread already exists, and people STILL want to bring the discussion somewhere where it's not welcome.

 

[Metrotab]

Dear GAF police,

I did skim the thread first, and i still feel the way i do about the art. and if you want to pinpoint the point in this thread where someone said they find it ridiculous that people are being accused as being anti-feminist because they find the art distasteful then point me to it and ill gravel at your feet for forgiveness because i missed that particular post in a 20 page thread.

if you're so worried about thread shitting, then start a new thread for either respective camp. and jesus fucking christ, learn to discuss things like a considerate human being, dont get pissed because you chose to be this games defender of honor that's tasked with battling hordes of posters and you cant help but get more pissed at each following dissenter. pretend you were talking to people in real fucking life.

This may be participator's bias and I don't want to play the victim, but I feel the 'other side' has been much more aggressive in this thread. We have the facts, we have the right position, people are being ignorant, obtuse, the game is sexist, mysoginistic, juvenile, puberal, semi-hentai...

I'm just trying to enjoy my niche hack & slash game with a unique artstyle that has been made with love and passion. It's almost like I have to feel bad or ashamed for doing so.

 

[Haly]

if you're so worried about thread shitting, then start a new thread for either respective camp.

Thread is about the game, sexism is a separate debate, a lot of the anti-Sorceress side have admitted as much. There's one right here, made by our resident shit stirrer Lime. Why don't you and everyone take this debate over there? It's more appropriate, and on topic.

Too lazy? Yeah, I thought so.

(Ironically it's smaller than this one, despite being a broader look at the issue of sexism in the industry. Just goes to show how many people couldn't care less about the actual problem and just want people to argue with, which makes this thread the prime target because it's filled with fans.)

and jesus fucking christ, learn to discuss things like a considerate human being, dont get pissed because you chose to be this games defender of honor that's tasked with battling hordes of posters and you cant help but get more pissed at each following dissenter.

Tried consideration. Ignored. Trolled. Misrepresented. I'll stick to vitriol, thanks.

pretend you were talking to people in real fucking life.

Sorry, but a thread on a message board isn't real life. Please understand the environment in which you're operating in rather than trying to play some "moral high ground" card.

 

[-COOLIO-]

What pisses people off is that there are some people who actually want to, you know, DISCUSS THE GODDAMN GAME, but they can't because the moral crusade has to come in and shit all over the thread with stuff that frankly, the people for whom this thread was intended are not interested in and don't care. If people want to discuss the moral implications of the sorceress character, or anything for that matter, THEY should be the ones creating a new thread since THEY are the ones that are wanting to talk about something that this thread was not intended for.

the thread was created to discuss the trailer, whoever wants to discuss the trailer or character design in the trailer has the right to do so. there was a ton of questions asked repeatedly in the bioshock spoiler thread but people didn't flip the fuck out, they just had their questions answered.

and yeah a second thread would be helpful but anyone can make it, and most of this thread consists of discussion of the controversy so whether the new thread should focus on that, or focus on game play discussion. i dont know.

 

[Devolution]

Tiny Tina all over again.

 

[Giolon]

The definition of the organ isn't the issue, it's the accentuation OF the organ that people are having an issue with.
No, breasts are not a component of the act of reproduction, but they are a part of the body that is treated as "private" and both are treated as "bigger=better" by the media.

I don't know if there are less men stuffing their pants compared to woman padding their bras, but the action of both is attempting to have similar results (increased sexual appeal).

Breasts aren't considered *that* private by western society - only nipple and areola really remain taboo. Nobody gets arrested for having their breasts half hanging out of their shirt, but I can bet you money that if half of a guy's dick and all of his pubic hair were being shown off to the world there'd be a public indecency arrest, and the same would be done for a woman doing the same.

Secondary Sex Characteristics =/= Genitalia

 

[-COOLIO-]

Tried consideration. Ignored. Trolled. Mirepresented. I'll stick to vitriol, thanks.

in other words your feelings got hurt so you're lashing out against everybody. lol.

 

[Delusibeta]

Tiny Tina all over again.

Pretty much.

 

[Haly]

in other words your feelings got hurt so you're lashing out against everybody. lol.

Yeah pretty much. Why bother trying to discuss things civilly when the other side has all the sense of a brick wall?

 

[Odrion]

I know you're being facetious but that's where it started to careen into insulting women, their likes and their body types. It's obvious the people so far discussing the issue with this character (who have a problem with the character) don't want to deal in any nuance or talk about it in a manner that doesn't alienate women. It's really disappointing. Yes she's sexually objectified but what does it mean in the broader context of this game? Why aren't they looking at the characters in aggregate when they discuss her? It's just so intellectually dishonest. As someone who wants to see better representations of women and deals with this issue, this kind of deconstructing of a game/character/art style is lazy and set up so that any nuanced position is automatically wrong.

This is all so very true. Thanks.

 

[NoirVisage]

That low end is the star of the show for me. The Amazon is who I'm waiting for Dem Thighs :O

 

[Risette]

Thread is about the game, sexism is a separate debate. There's one right here, made by our resident shit stirrer Lime. Why don't you ask him to take his debate over there?

(Ironically it's somehow smaller than this one, despite being a broader look at the issue of sexism in the industry)

Even that thread shows how toxic and confrontational this movement's participants are becoming. Look at the response lexi's joke got from posters there (the ban I don't agree with but it isn't entirely unjustified because that joke was kinda-sorta thread derail material, and yes, it was a joke, she even made the last thread about the last RPS article on the same subject.)

 

[Riposte]

Exactly. Or the constant skimpy ass armor for female characters in MMOs versus dudes being completely covered up. Then the excuse is "it's fantasy." Oh it's only fantasy in regards to the recreations of the female characters, uhuh. They have mystical invisible armor that keeps arrows away from their thighs, ass, chest and mid-drift. Although I don't really like Tera's solution where everyone looks like a stripper.

This bugs the hell out of me too. It is visually off-putting when I'm confronted with it. MMOs are relatively more popular with women than other games with similar settings (or so the numbers I've find say), but I don't know if their voice is factored into the (at times outrageous) armor discrepancy. Maybe, maybe not. Looking sexy is one thing, but there is something odd about having to look sexy while guys don't. I have to imagine someone (probably not a dude playing a girl character to look at her ass) had to be offended when they had to dress up their character (their virtual avatar) like a futuristic stripper in order to keep up with damage dealing among the fully armored dudes. It is almost metaphoric.

MMOs have crappy armor designs in general it seems. When it isn't chainmail bikini, it is clownishly huge pauldrons. One MMO I thought had fantastic armor design was the unfortunately busted FFXIV. Another unfortunate aspect is that in the process of rebuilding that game they are introducing more "fantastical" armor designs (though not really bad, like most MMOs) which happen to continue the trend in at least some instances. The "sexual dimorphism" at play that can be seen mainly in the iconic "artifact" armor Bard and Dragoon (random midriff lol) is a bit worrisome. Some of the others are perfectly fine. Maybe it is too much to ask for at least two versions of these armor sets to toggle between for female characters (and males, to go in the other direction, why not).

As for the lack of realism, in my head I make up a rule for the game world that says: "This is like anime and they don't get hurt for being naked because of invisible plot armor magic/chi/fate-manipulation that is abstracted into the form of their "level". It is handy. It is not like "HP" makes sense either.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Yeah pretty much. Why bother trying to discuss things civilly when the other side has all the sense of a brick wall?

whether or not that's true, there's always exceptions. that's why, and also in the real world, you treat every new person you meet with courtesy and respect. discussion here has the same effect as real world discussion, only you can get away with being rude here more easily. but we're better than that. it's tougher to remain calm and civil, but it takes a kind of strength to do it on an on-line forum, and i always respect that when i see it.

 

[fates]

lol magics, sounds like elf talk to me!

The Dorf is the only way to play.

 

[Odrion]

Yeah pretty much. Why bother trying to discuss things civilly when the other side has all the sense of a brick wall?

Don't give him attention. His contribution to the thread can be boiled down to "Hey, her tits sure are big" and then calling everybody hostile or authoritative, while being extremely ignorant about the actual game. Coolio, if you really read the thread then how did you miss the many other times people posted the artist's work to point out that the sorcerer's sexualized nature is in tone with the rest of the game? If you read this thread then why did you have to ask about if the fucking hands and feet are exaggerated as well?

Or not even know the name of the goddamn game?