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[Dunlop]

After the X1 event, Microsoft's message was confused.

I agree, they are also trying to clarify matters as I have just received my 2nd e-mail about Xbox One and I am no longer even a LIVE member

http://www.xbox.com/en-CA/xboxone/meet-xbox-one

I am however still a PSN/PS+ member and have yet to receive anything about the PS4

And this is why the Xbox will sell like gangbusters, people outside of gaming circles are going to start becoming very aware of it

 

[DenogginizerOS]

And with Kinect, they'll always be listening.

Perfection

 

[lantus]

That's good, hopefully they can save face for the people who actually intend to buy their console. I have no intention of going back to their platforms unless they can make features that I use on PlayStation hardware free.

 

[Deitus]

You best re-read the forums through the first ten or so pages and see the evidence against Sony vs Microsoft.

Xbone doom threads have littered this place since the announcement. Don't try and spin it like the "teams" are "even". There's genuine hate for all things Microsoft right now.

The "teams" are certainly not "even". I don't understand why an equal number of people should be expected to support the policies of each company, regardless of how bad said policies are. Microsoft is hated by a large portion of GAF, because the few parts of their DRM strategy they have gone into detail about are terribly restrictive. Why would anyone be happy about that?

There is a very real possibility that Sony will have similar policies, and if so you will see a huge outcry against them. No need for the martyr complex.

I'd be willing to bet that even if they were to show an insane amount of games at E3, people will STILL dog them.

Yes, because they would still be implementing their restrictive DRM policies.

 

[sja_626]

Honestly Microsoft? Make it so you DON'T have to install every game to the HDD. This requirement is what's making the DRM necessary (or vice-versa I suppose). Include a code with every new game. That code lets you install it to you hard drive once to use without a disc. If you buy a game used or borrow one, you have to use the disc or you can buy the code to install it (say $20, I would gladly pay that on top of the used game amount to not have to switch discs). People get their used games, rentals and lending and publishers get a chunk from the money from code sales.

I think the installation of every game is down to the limitations of blu-ray. PS4 is doing the same thing right?

Your code solution doesn't work. People would buy a game, install it with the code and then resell the disk. Or give the disk to a friend. Essentially every new game purchase would provide 2 copies of the game.

The only real way out of this is to require the disk be in the tray. Plenty of people wouldn't mind that, but then again plenty of people would be annoyed that every game must be installed, taking up hundreds of gigabytes on their hard drive, and yet they must continually switch disks to use them.

So if Microsoft isn't willing to enforce "disk must be in the tray" (I doubt they are, and personally I hope they don't), all they can really do is tweak the amount of time the console can stay offline before phoning home.

It sounds to me like that check only has to be reasonably frequent because Microsoft is going to allow used games in some way. Since there is obviously going to need to be license deactivation to facilitate this there needs to be regular checks to ensure your licenses haven't been deactivated. But if Xbox One was to abandon used games entirely the system could have a prolonged offline mode, and it would pretty much be equivalent to the way Steam works.

So really it's about trade offs.

Constant disk switching despite having a hard drive full of games, but with no DRM
VS

No disks required, but has online DRM.

And within the DRM option:

Long offline mode, but no used games (essentially Steam)

VS

Used games possible, but quite short offline mode.

For me personally it feels like they took the right options, with a short term outlook. Long term, when the servers go down, is a bit of a worry though. It also feels as though if they were listening only to publishers without concern for consumers that they would go the no used games at all route.

 

[Gorillaz]

Here's my take on this.

The whole industry was spreading the word that the used games were harming the ecosystem from long before the reveal of any of the two next generation consoles. I think late 2011 and surely along 2012. They wanted to minimize the impact once those politics were reveal. That actually worked because you can hear voices (Penny Arcade) that are defending this new trend and not for some kind of bias but because they have bought the story.
--
Then the February 20 happens and we didn't see anything from Activision (BUNGIE is still an independent studio with a publishing contract) neither EA, the two major publishers. We know from famousmortimer that the used games blocking was then still a feature that Sony was pushing back and forward. A few months later EA announces that the online pass is gone and immediately we have the XBox One reveal, with Activision and EA announcing exclusive content for the platform. A platform that minutes later would be infamous because of Microsoft executives declarations about its DRM on used games.

Well, I can't know what happened for sure, but as Inspector Finch, I have a feeling about it. I can easily imagine the publishers desperate to get their hands on a 4 billion dollars worldwide market, probably more, and convincing Microsoft that that's the salvation of the industry. At Redmond they are no fools and they know that attacking the used games is positioning hardcores, many journalists and maybe retailers against them, so what's there for them? And I can imagine again the answer of the publishers: "Do you remember all that exclusive content that you have to pay millions for it? The one that granted your system a big success over your direct competition during past generation? Guess what… now it's half price. Maybe even free. Do you like that? Just SING here… The guys at Sony were too slow and are still thinking about it. Now it's your chance to anticipate to their move."

If something like that, not exactly that, but a similar scenario happened, maybe Microsoft doesn't have the manoeuvre capability to drastically change this. That would also explain why Sony isn't jumping and shouting that they are no implementing a DRM for their used games to gain positive press. Maybe they want the favour of the big publishers too and not just a handful of indies.

But as I said, it's just a feeling.

As an outline of events that sounds about righ

 

[GayForMaster]

And with Kinect, they'll always be listening.

Holy shit I nearly spit my drink all over my screen. Haven't laughed for that long in a while. I must thank you kind sir.

 

[Spawnling]

It'd be cool as fuck if both MS and Sony stopped with the DRM and used game stuff.

But that would be too simple.

 

[Alpende]

The answers might be looking good for them. I just hope they do something about the issues instead of giving us false hope.

 

[kittens]

They're listening, we're watching.

 

[FireVoa]

Kinect more and more feels like HAL every time I think about it.

 

[Veronica]

I strangely believe MS is genuine about reevaluating their problems and that in the end, consumers will be pleasantly surprised. I expect a turn around at E3 and before launch.

 

[Lasdrub]

 

[Deleted member 8095]

I guess people missed it when the same Kinect joke was made yesterday.

I'm glad MS is giving a response I hope they are doing more than just listening!

 

[devonraynor]

giving in to the consumer would be great for us, but their image would still be damaged

 

[Ace Harding]

I love the phrase, "rounding up answers." I imagine Larry walking around the offices of Microsoft, interviewing people like he's a fucking detective.

 

[hooijdonk17]

And with Kinect, they'll always be listening.

GAF and the first post magic, again..

 

[Radical_Ed]

As an outline of events that sounds about righ

Thanks (you are the first person to reply me on NeoGAF ;_.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Microsoft listening will probably be comparable to Iwata learning lessons.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Anything less than a statement of "no DRM" will be pointless. It's very simple. Either they will limit pre-owned games, or they will keep them as they are now.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Too early.

Anything less than a statement of "no DRM" will be pointless. It's very simple. Either they will limit pre-owned games, or they will keep them as they are now.

I think if they do drop it, it will reappear midway through the generation. While there will be some backlash, most users will just accept it as they did online passes. They'll be too invested in the platform at that point to sell everything and start afresh on another console.

It's happening either way I feel, whether it happens at a launch or MS climb down to ensure their console sells only to bring it back a few years down the road and possibly make it retroactive.

 

[driver116]

This sounds like another

Sony: We are listening

GAF: >3 you Sony

Microsoft: We are listening

GAF: STOP LYING ITS JUST MORE PR!!!


Looks like someone was thinking what i was thinking haha ^^

Please, the differences are astronomical.

 

[Coxy]

This sounds like another

Sony: We are listening

GAF: >3 you Sony

Microsoft: We are listening

GAF: STOP LYING ITS JUST MORE PR!!!


Looks like someone was thinking what i was thinking haha ^^

you're missing the step where nelson deleted 1000+ comments on his blog post

 

[C4Lukins]

It is to late Hyrb. We have already decided as a community that the DRM heavy platform of Steam and the not yet announced plans of Sony with the PS4 are superior to your cryptic XBone system that we know little about and cannot wait a week to get further answers on.

 

[Fistwell]

Listening dont necessarily mean hearing.

 

[Face it Tiger..]

"Right, Anything else?"

Seems like such a shithead answer.


Find a pit to jump in, Hyrb.

 

[Phat Michael]

jesus. everyone complains and when their issues are going to be addressed you complain even more? why doesn't everyone wait until e3 instead of jumping the gun on all these sweeping generalisations?

 

[Tyrone_Biggums]

you're missing the step where nelson deleted 1000+ comments on his blog post

Pssh, I would too with all the ridiculous spam being thrown his way by gamers. I would hate dealing with so many prima donna's as a job.

All the questions will be answered at E3, which seems sufficient for Sony, but Microsoft must answer everything RIGHT NOW! lest the entirety of the gaming world tear them to pieces. It's stupid.

 

[Nebula]

And with Kinect, they'll always be listening.

Glorious.

I hope E3 clears the air and we get a definitive answer on all this stuff.

Pssh, I would too with all the ridiculous spam being thrown his way by gamers. I would hate dealing with so many prima donna's as a job.

All the questions will be answered at E3, which seems sufficient for Sony, but Microsoft must answer everything RIGHT NOW! lest the entirety of the gaming world tear them to pieces. It's stupid.

Why do it on twitter or in press releases when you can do it at the biggest gaming event of the year and get it heard pretty much every games journalist, website and a ton of consumers in one swoop?

 

[Coxy]

Pssh, I would too with all the ridiculous spam being thrown his way by gamers. I would hate dealing with so many prima donna's as a job.

Which is of course a fantastic rock solid way of showing you're listening and you care, well done.

 

[Nocturno999]

"We are listening" sounds like "we love you guys but we are not changing our plans."

 

[Linkified]

Don't count your chickens before they are hatched, bad news tends to be released late on Fridays ... and that tweet was sent out yesterday and well most of MS Team haven't been talking on twitter .... so?

 

[BloodOmenPT]

He forgot the rest of the sentence...

"We are listening, we just can't hear you"

Or, as Nathan Drake said in Uncharted Golden Abyss:

"I am listening, I'm just not paying attention"

 

[Neverender]

I'm sure it's been said but 'rounding up answers' doesn't sound confident to me at all. I mean he's Major Nelson, if he has to 'round up answers' I can't imagine it meaning anything but 'figuring out how to break the bad news in the most positive way we can'.

 

[ekim]

Don't count your chickens before they are hatched, bad news tends to be released late on Fridays ... and that tweet was sent out yesterday and well most of MS Team haven't been talking on twitter .... so?

 

[Septimius]

And with Kinect, they'll always be listening.

God damn first posts, GAF! We're on a roll.

 

[Tyrone_Biggums]

Which is of course a fantastic rock solid way of showing you're listening and you care, well done.

You think his job is to cater to every over-the-top comment filled with pure vitriol or stupidity? No. His job is to wade through all of that, find the questions that can be answered with meaningful information; that actually provide some value to the customers he's attempting to reach with the Q & A.

He's not supposed to babysit and get in a back and forth with fanboys. That wouldn't be professional. You act like every comment deserves a response. Hell, most GAF comments in X1 threads don't even deserve a response.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I think I might tweet Acey too. Just to drive home the message a little. I doubt he has a lot of influence, but I'm sure his voice would carry more weight if it was echoed by others who are being bombarded with the same message.

Keep up the fight people.

 

[Walshicus]

"Right, Anything else?"

Seems like such a shithead answer.


Find a pit to jump in, Hyrb.

... What?

 

[Raist]

Sony "We won't block used games or require always online or require online registration of your games"

Gaf "Yeah, please don't go the MS way"

Sony "we hear you"

Gaf "all those feels...so glad to make a difference...never prouder to be a gamer and part of this movement"


MS "So we want you guys to be able to install your games and throw the disc away but we're afraid that means a shitty DRM system. Oh and we're teaming up with retail. Also no more lending lolz"

Gaf "wtfisthis? don't?"

MS "we're listening"

Gaf "lolz Kinect / mockery"

conclusion?

Fixed.

 

[derFeef]

"Right, Anything else?"

Seems like such a shithead answer.


Find a pit to jump in, Hyrb.

Dude.

 

[Arkham]

Once he's done rounding up all of the official FAQ answers he'll copy and paste them in a response.

I wouldn't put it paste him.

 

[twobear]

Honestly Microsoft? Make it so you DON'T have to install every game to the HDD. This requirement is what's making the DRM necessary (or vice-versa I suppose). Include a code with every new game. That code lets you install it to you hard drive once to use without a disc. If you buy a game used or borrow one, you have to use the disc or you can buy the code to install it (say $20, I would gladly pay that on top of the used game amount to not have to switch discs). People get their used games, rentals and lending and publishers get a chunk from the money from code sales.

No matter how they cut it, installing games to the HDD is going to require some kind of authentication check (read: DRM) to stop people from being able to play on more than one console with a single purchase. And that in turn makes game resale more complicated than it has been previously.

I feel like this point has been lost in all the histrionics. They're not just adding DRM to the existing usage model for the sake of adding it. They're adding it because one of the features they're adding to the system leaves open this loophole unless they plug it with online checks. Now, I think it's still completely reasonable for you to think that it's not worth it and they should just keep with needing the disc in and remove the DRM. Maybe you think that the causal relationship runs the other way: they wanted to add DRM because that's the kind of thing evil companies do for fun, but they realised they would need to sweeten the deal by adding some added functionality. Fine but somewhat irrelevant, I think. But I also think that if you value the added functionality of playing without changing discs you're well within your rights to accept that it needs some DRM measure in order to prevent abuse.

They could have a thing where during first-time setup you choose whether you have an online or and offline console. If you choose offline it works as on the 360; you install games but need the disc to play. No online checks. If you pick to make the console online then you can play without the disc but it checks in once a day. You can convert from one to the other, but not more than say, once a month, to avoid abuse. I dunno, I'm sure they could do something here.

Anyway, I think the issue is more complicated than some people paint it. I personally don't feel like if they go ahead with this used games thing it would be the kind of thing that would ipso facto prevent me buying the console, but it certainly would give me pause for thought.

 

[snookee]

The thing to me that has stood out over this whole saga is the poor messaging from MS, from the Xbox one reveal to whoever speaks in general on behalf of MS. Nobody seems to know what is going on, or is the message being hidden? This in turn makes consumers confused, perplexed, angry, which leads to all sorts of silly speculation, rumors abound.

Have a clear concise (hopefully good) message MS, at least then people will know where they stand, problem solved.

 

[Feorax]

No matter how they cut it, installing games to the HDD is going to require some kind of authentication check (read: DRM) to stop people from being able to play on more than one console with a single purchase. And that in turn makes game resale more complicated than it has been previously.

I feel like this point has been lost in all the histrionics. They're not just adding DRM to the existing usage model for the sake of adding it. They're adding it because one of the features they're adding to the system leaves open this loophole unless they plug it with online checks. Now, I think it's still completely reasonable for you to think that it's not worth it and they should just keep with needing the disc in and remove the DRM. Maybe you think that the causal relationship runs the other way: they wanted to add DRM because that's the kind of thing evil companies do for fun, but they realised they would need to sweeten the deal by adding some added functionality. Fine but somewhat irrelevant, I think. But I also think that if you value the added functionality of playing without changing discs you're well within your rights to accept that it needs some DRM measure in order to prevent abuse.

They could have a thing where during first-time setup you choose whether you have an online or and offline console. If you choose offline it works as on the 360; you install games but need the disc to play. No online checks. If you pick to make the console online then you can play without the disc but it checks in once a day. You can convert from one to the other, but not more than say, once a month, to avoid abuse. I dunno, I'm sure they could do something here.

Anyway, I think the issue is more complicated than people paint it. I personally don't feel like if they go ahead with this used games thing it would be the kind of thing that would ipso facto prevent me buying the console, but it certainly would give me pause for thought.

I agree with what you're saying, but everything Microsoft wants will happen when digital distribution becomes standard, be it midway through this generation or next gen. When the consumers are ready for digital distribution, no-one will give a shit about the DRM because that will already be expected. People are conditioned to havig digital DRM.

The problem is that there is no reason why the current model of offering both discs and digital versions side by side cannot contine whilst the consumers naturally evolve their purchasing habits. The backlash from all this just proves people aren't ready, and having it forced down their throats won't make them want it.

 

[C4Lukins]

The thing to me that has stood out over this whole saga is the poor messaging from MS, from the Xbox one reveal to whoever speaks in general on behalf of MS. Nobody seems to know what is going on, or is the message being hidden? This in turn makes consumers confused, perplexed, angry, which leads to all sorts of silly speculation, rumors abound.

Have a clear concise (hopefully good) message MS, at least then people will know where they stand, problem solved.

I think MS is not completely clear on every aspect of XBOX One, and their attempts to answer very specific questions on a console that is still 6 months from release have just made things worse for them.

Sony has somehow benefited from not making themselves even available for such questioning.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Fixed.

In what fanboy dream world did you fantasise that?

So Microsoft realises how fucking stupid they're going to look if they re-reveal the DRM at E3, right? They can feed people hope all they want but if you don't actually follow that up with any significant changes, it's just going to make people angrier.

 

[saladine1]

Let's say that MS wanted to change everything we find negative about them and the Xbox One.
Would there be enough time to implement said changes for launch?

 

[Feorax]

Let's say that MS wanted to change everything we find negative about them and the Xbox One.
Would there be enough time to implement said changes for launch?

Not for everything, but probably time to change enough so that I would consider buying one.

 

[Raist]

In what fanboy dream world did you fantasise that?

So Microsoft realises how fucking stupid they're going to look if they re-reveal the DRM at E3, right? They can feed people hope all they want but if you don't actually follow that up with any significant changes, it's just going to make people angrier.

What? I never said anything about their next stance. Just that the difference in people's reactions regarding Sony vs Microsoft's we're listening comes from the initial position of the two companies, which are radically different. MS made it rather clear what their plans were, so now coming with "we're listening" and "oh yeah well these were only ideas" is not enough and BS.