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Forza 5: Behind the scenes look (video) [Up: 1080p/60fps]

That's by no means Turn 10's best Forza trailer, but still trumps these last two for FM5 by a country mile. I'm guessing they've been thrown together fairly quickly for pre-E3 hype, but I know Turn 10 can do better.

Also: Prague. We get it. PLEASE show more than just this environment at E3.

You are becoming bitter.

I am totally write off any type of BC for wheels and any 360 accessories. It would be nice but I just don't see it happening. With them signing up Thrusmaster and MadCatz I am sure that where the new wheel will be coming from. Thrusmaster have Ferrari license so we probably will be get variation of that. It's pretty sad the route Microsoft is taking, I really don't understand throwing the baby out with the bath water mentality that they have lately. It's not just Xbox division, it's all of Microsoft.

This game need to really blow my socks off, as far as game play for me to even consider Xbox One.
 

Shaneus

Member
It's pretty sad that we're celebrating different wheel offsets but never the less, YAY!

Still not getting X1 :'(

It just makes it all the more painful.
Nah. To be honest, T10 have to do something incredible on Monday to get me even contemplating thinking about maybe buying an X1 priced at factory refurb prices while on sale. If Dan can't do that, then there's plenty of other driving/racing stuff to keep me going on other platforms. Drive Club, for one, I'm really starting to warm to far more now than when it was first shown.

Edit: That's if MS actually allow second-hand console sales.
 

derFeef

Member
That's by no means Turn 10's best Forza trailer, but still trumps these last two for FM5 by a country mile. I'm guessing they've been thrown together fairly quickly for pre-E3 hype, but I know Turn 10 can do better.

Also: Prague. We get it. PLEASE show more than just this environment at E3.

That will sadly not happen, its a Turn10 tradition to show only one track and 3 cars at a reveal and drive them into the ground.
 

Mascot

Member
You are becoming bitter.

Damn fucking right I am. It's a struggle trying to keep an open mind and remain enthusiastic after the Xbone reveal and subsequent shit storm regarding power, policies and focus. I've been financially and emotionally invested in the Forza franchise for many years now and fully expect FM5 to be absolutely incredible. But no matter how good it turns out I don't think it'll be enough to offset the damage already done and convince me to invest in hardware that doesn't appeal to me for a whole multitude of reasons, especially if it would also mean heavy investment in another racing wheel when the one I already own is in perfect working order.

Like I said earlier, I'll continue drooling over FM5 and closely following its development, but it'll be with the same kind of emotional detachment with which I follow other racing games on platforms I don't own, like Assetto Corsa.
 

KidBeta

Junior Member
It looks really good but it would be really nice to have footage from when your actually playing and not watching a replay/auto vista mode.
 

wizzbang

Banned
I find it difficult to tell the Forza 4 footage from the Forza 5 footage? Does anyone know which specific bits were Forza 5?

Also, 1080p 60fps 'full forza game' at launch seems... bold.
I know they are new consoles but that's going to be pretty demanding to get that kind of performance out of a launch game.

I wish them well, pretty much the only reason I'd ever buy an Xbox is Forza :( it's so much better than Gran Turismo now :(
 

SarBear

Member
Seems turn10 still likes to kill us all with bloom effects. Tone it down guys.......all will be forgiven if the 2004 SVT MUSTANG Cobra makes the cut.
 
I find it difficult to tell the Forza 4 footage from the Forza 5 footage? Does anyone know which specific bits were Forza 5?

Also, 1080p 60fps 'full forza game' at launch seems... bold.
I know they are new consoles but that's going to be pretty demanding to get that kind of performance out of a launch game.

I wish them well, pretty much the only reason I'd ever buy an Xbox is Forza :( it's so much better than Gran Turismo now :(

Is this some sort of double secret troll attempt?
 

Ty4on

Member
I find it difficult to tell the Forza 4 footage from the Forza 5 footage? Does anyone know which specific bits were Forza 5?

Also, 1080p 60fps 'full forza game' at launch seems... bold.
I know they are new consoles but that's going to be pretty demanding to get that kind of performance out of a launch game.

I wish them well, pretty much the only reason I'd ever buy an Xbox is Forza :( it's so much better than Gran Turismo now :(

Forza 4 was 720p as 60FPS, so similar graphics at 1080p can't possibly be hard unless the Xbone has WiiU level power...
 

djshauny

Banned
Looking foward to seeing more at MS E3 presentation tommorow. This is the only game that is making want the XB1 at the moment.
 

dejay

Banned
Yep, Closer to 2.25 times though (;p stealth edit).So it's a big step and a big difference in clarity and in reducing jaggies.

So the xbone is supposedly 10x (sans cloud) the power of the 360. Which means it has the power to handle the new resolution easily, with more memory and bandwidth to push those textures through quicker and still have enough left over (hopefully) for niceties such as dynamic weather and time, although that may be a tall order at launch.
 
So the xbone is supposedly 10x (sans cloud) the power of the 360. Which means it has the power to handle the new resolution easily, with more memory and bandwidth to push those textures through quicker and still have enough left over (hopefully) for niceties such as dynamic weather and time, although that may be a tall order at launch.
I don't see why the game wouldn't be 1080p. But i'm no expert.
 
1080p 60fps is good. But I have a feeling something else has been sacrificed to get that (No weather change maybe).

I'd rather 720p 60fps and have more effects.
 

Bgamer90

Banned
Looking foward to seeing more at MS E3 presentation tommorow. This is the only game that is making want the XB1 at the moment.

Same here. Can see myself having both consoles eventually but E3 will determine which one I'll get first.

I love the Forza series. 1080p/60 FPS was great news. If there will be weather and night racing then yeah -- I will already be convinced in getting an Xbox One. Kinda sad I guess since it would mainly be due to just one game but that's just how much I love Forza.

And while I don't want to get too off topic, the majority of the Xbox One's restrictions don't really bum me out that much since I'm expecting the PS4 to have similar restrictions (not all of them; just some and/or similar restrictions). I say that due to how quiet Sony has been. MS is very confident in what they'll show at E3 since they gave the bad news before their conference. Seems like they think that they'll win a good amount of gamers back with what they'll show.

If I were Sony, and the PS4 didn't have similar restrictions, I would have said it instantly after MS released their news so that I would get tons of people on my side and carry those positive vibes into E3 -- stopping any possibility for MS to win back people who are currently frustrated. But Sony hasn't done that so therefore (as I said previously), I'm expecting the PS4 to have many restrictions too. We'll see though.
 

saladine1

Junior Member
Well, I hope the move to a higher resolution doesn't affect other details and effects. The sterility of previous games needs to die..
 

Mole40

Banned
Looks amazing.

I hope we get full grid racing now with at least 16 cars on the same track,with no slowdown,would be awesome.

The lack of more than 8 car-races has been the only thing lacking in previous Forza games
 
I just have to write this down, because everything is falling apart. And I am not happy because of it. And I think it is wrong. And it has been wrong for almost a decade.

What am I talking about?

When first Forza on Xbox was released in 2005 it was directly competing GT4 released in 2004. At that point of time, HID force feedback wheels were already a very serious market product that was present in homes of hundreds of thousands of players worldwide, mainly thanks to Logitech efforts and their production of Dual Force/Wingman and Driving Force family of wheels that practically changed the driving genre forever.

At the point of first Forza arrival, there were 3 extremely well-sold Logitech FFB/USB-HID wheels: second generation of USB/HID PC wheel Wingman Formula (270 degrees) that was perfectly working on PS2, three generations of Dual Force wheels USB/HID (270 degrees - models known as Dual Force, Driving Force and GT Force, also working on both PC/PS2 and also a legendary Logitech's Driving Force Pro model (USB-HID/900 degrees, PC/PS2), that will later become the best selling driving wheel of all time. I do not know the numbers for all those wheels, but I can presume that in 2005 there were hundreds of thousands them in the world.

But let's take a step back first.

What is ironic today - and not only today - is how actual HID technology and all foundations for USB force feedback wheels that 99% of the world is using today under Immersion Company's TouchSense technology license is actually made by - MICROSOFT. Yeah, you read it right. Microsoft.

Microsoft's own DirectInput technology - which Microsoft deliberately showed down the drain in favor of Xinput, which allows them monitoring and licensing of hardware - was the real pioneer of the full force feedback technology that we know today, used on legendary Microsoft Sidewinder FFB wheel back in 2000 (Immersion Corp. came out with their TouchSense technology a full year later, in 2001, and launched its first wheel full year after the Sidewinder).

And best part: DirectInput supported HID. Sidewinder is a full USB/HID wheel.

And now comes the juicy part. The Immersion Company that licenses its own proprietary force feedback technology almost to the whole world is the same Immersion Co. that Microsoft settled with about patents Immersion successfully claimed back in 2004, prior to Xbox360 release, regarding the usage of their patents in their Xbox controllers. Thanks to that settlement, X360 launched with rumble effects in their controllers day one.

In the same time, Sony - the company that is preparing the third consecutive console that will *probably* use the same USB-HID standard as whole world (except Microsoft) is using for the last 13 years, remained in dispute with Immersion without settlement, which finally ended with great damages Sony had to pay to Immersion regarding rumble patents, which was the main reason why PS3 console was launched without rumble effects in controllers and without FFB support in wheels for driving games. Why? Because the same line of patents covers both technologies, owned by Immersion. It was after very EU launch of PS3 that dispute was settled and damages payed and Sony agreed to pay Immersion fee for usage of their technologies. And it was the moment when Sixasis was finally replaced with Dual Shock 2 and when legendary update finally brought force feedback to F1 Championship Edition and very GT:HD (which was already released WITHOUT force feedback support) and USB-HID force feedback technology was again part of PlayStation console, this time PS3.

And that is the same licensing/patents we are talking about. One that Microsoft settled with Immersion 2 years before Sony. And they are still using it and they've been using it all along.

Now let us get back to history for a second.

If you remember, Gran Turismo 4 was released in 2004. It took 2 years to release GT:HD demo, and another year until release of GT5:prologue. And then, another two years have passed until GT5 was released. In the meantime, Microsoft Games and Turn10 pumped out Forza 1 (2005), Forza 2 (2007) and Forza 3 (2009).

Now let us just imagine.

IF Microsoft allowed the usage of USB-HID protocols on their consoles and allowed all those hundreds of thousands of potential owners of FFB wheels to be able to actually use them on Xbox/Xbox360, the success of the Forza franchise would be immensely greater.

During the infamous 2007-2009 period (also known as Gran Depression™) Gran Turismo fans were going absolutely insane over the fact how their wheels can't be used on X360 while GT5 was facing one delay after another. Also, dozens of thousands of PC players were pretty uninterested in Forza just because their wheels can't work with it.

And what Microsoft do in the meantime? First, they "invent" their own version of Xinput that supports wheels and then they produce that toy called Microsoft Wireless Force Feedback wheel (I am talking about 2006 actual wheel, not that U-shaped thingie released in 2011) and they also license the same tech to Logiitech (that starts the production of Driving FX model, but they soon ditch it because they can't break even: licensing a X360 license and actual hardware parts that have to be bought from Microsoft and put inside the wheel so it can be recognized by console - infamous "Infineon Chip" - at the end cost too much to keep the wheel price popular, so they just bail out).

I had that MS wheel and played Forza 2, Project Gotham 2&3, Test Drive Unlimited and Race Pro with it. In the same time I had DFP which I used to play all PS2 driving games with. Guess what? MS wheel and MS Xinput FFB solution SUCKED BIG TIME compared to HID-USB wheels (including my DFP).

But they didn't stoop there, no.

In 2009 they've announced legendary deal with Fanatec, that will lead to Forza 3 being first X360 game that will actually support 900-degree (which we will later learn it is not actually simulated, but emulated: XID-driven force feedback essentially does not communicate with the game directly, but instead it creates FFB through pre-determined commands, practically emulating FFB effects and linarity from 270-degree commands that corresponds with degrees supported by controller. As a side-result, sensation of countersteer on FFB wheels in 900-mode is severely compromised because system can't cope with maintaining *tensioned* FFB (as you can experience on either PC/PS3 where you can *save* the grip when you loose it) because of the line of FFB "command" has already being issued to device). But then came the issues with linearity, buffers and all that jazz. Despite Fanatec managed to find some great wizardry to actually portray X360 FFB close to one at HID-mode, it was still a let-down.

But even then people were buying Fanatec PWTS and GT2 models, together with CSP pedals and continue to invest into Forza series. Even then some of the "hundreds thousands" HID-army decided to bite the bullet, they've sold their Logitechs and bought Fanatecs because they were working on all platforms and on top of that they bought X360 consoles, Forza games and probably Gold memberships.

During that same period, Logitech launches its legendary G25 model and later G27. They lauch new generation of 270-degree FFB wheel in budget range, also supported by both PC/PS3, Driving Force EX. It allso launches new generation of Force model, Driving Force GT, that will be remembered as last wheel manufactured by Logitech. All those wheels are bought by PS2/PS3 and PC players around the world - thanks to crazy Logitech's policy of worldwide distribution and merchandising that will ultimately lead to their fall and demise of their wheel program - on top of the existing older models. And among those players there were tens of thousands during the aforementioned Gran Depression™ that would jump on X360 wagon and Forza 2&3 games only if their wheel would be supported.

But no. Microsoft was smarter then anyone..

They continued their policy when Forza 4 was announced. The new, broader partnership with Fanatec was highlighted, resulting with 2 new FFB models, officially branded as Forza Motorsport wheels. CSR and CSR Elite. Thankfully for many of today's owners of CSR/CSRE, Fanatec manufactured few cheaper models of pedals then superior CSP, so some could buy their sets for more reasonable money (but it was still a hefty, few hundreds of moneys investment). Forza 4 was spectacularly demoed with CSRE wheel on E3 2011 and released in the same year, aggregating great scores of media and users and announcing big partnership with Pirelli for the tyre model. But again, released version of the game was plagued with broken linearity and buffers when using wheels. Turn10 was so arrogant that they accused Fanatec for the issue, although it was clearly their own physics/Xinput emulator modeling that was causing the issue. Yoritomo was one of the first who presented the evidence which was soon blacklisted on the official forums. But thank to all voices from wheel users, Turn10 finally released FM4 update (one and only) that provided us with Simulation physics and proper 900-degree linearity (still emulated, still plagued by connectivity issues, but it was working, thank God).

In the meantime, GT5 was released, with another great USB/HID wheel to support it, Thrustmaster T500RS. Needless to say, Fanatec was smart enough to never produce wheel that will only work with X360, so many CSR/CSRE owners also opted for those wheels because they were multiplatform - and were giving a better performance when in USB-HID mode, just to highlight that little fact.

And then came 2013 and recent news. And all I feel is complete disbelief.

Almost a full decade later I still can't fathom what is going on in heads at people at Microsoft. How can anyone with even grain of sanity in their head decide to create a simulation-driving game that will be first-party and funded with hundreds of million of dollars through its development - but in the same time decide it will not support a peripheral standard that is superior then Xinput while already embraced by hundreds of thousands (if not even millions) players of that same genre in the world?

They didn't opted to loose potential sales and buildup of userbase on only one platform (Xbox and Forza 1) or two platforms (Forza 2/3/4 and X360) - they now decided to do the same with the third consecutive platform and make angry all people who invested into extremely expensive peripherals to play their flagship racing franchise - and other driving games on their platform that were only supporting Xinput - through last 7 years. Why are they doing that? What is the math beyond such short-sighted and absolutely non-visionary decision?

I can only fathom the success Forza series would have if first game and first console were to support 270-FFB wheels of the time and if Forza 2 supported the same. I can only fathom what stellar numbers would they achieved if X360 and Forza 3 - released in the very time of Gran Depression™ - were to support USB-HID wheels. And what would it done to popularity of the franchise and platform itself. Also, success of Forza 4 would probably be much greater, same for Forza Horizon. And same for all other driving games - and as we all know X360 had a damn great number of them, from exclusive ones (PGR, TDU, RacePro) to multiplatform releases (when I am already writing this down, I have to congratulate Codemasters on their FFB engine used on X360, it was probably the best third-party FFB on X360, great job done there in all Codemasters games, especially F1 2011, Dirt 3 and GRID 2) - which would all be much more popular and played (and BOUGHT, together with damn XBOX LIVE GOLD sweet money needed to play online) if Microsoft only decided to support the standard and technology they invented and founded themselves in year 2000.

And for the final spectacle, they now have a Forza 5, on next-generation console, as first simulation game that will cherish the next-gen. And in that very moment they announce how none of the X360 peripheral will be supported and there is no evidence they will ditch Xinput in favor of DirectInput, as everybody with some sanity would do. And in the same time, their main contender is launching a game on the current-platfoorm, handing them AGAIN an empty space to grab from sea of those ready to jump in the early adoption madness. With their USB-HID and X360 wheels in the hands, awaiting to see have the white collars of Redmond finally came to their senses.

Unbelievable.

Damn, I was really inspired now when I look the wall of text. Sorry for that, Friday night. Off to play some GT5 online with my friends. Monday is only two nights away, I am really, honestly and wholeheartedly waiting for some good news about XboxOne. May support for USB-HID standard be that news.

Rant over.

BTW I should probably post this in the main Forza 5 thread too? Maybe later.

BTW2 Sorry to hear FordGT get banned. He was hilarious in his doings. He will be missed in Monday.
Quoting this whole thing because it needs more attention from Microsoft (I know you're listening)

I've updated my avatar aswell.
How can sim racers with existing wheels possibly enjoy your games when we have to be forced into buying a whole new wheel... it's not like a new controller which doesn't cost a few hundred dollars minimum like a good wheel. And bugger that if I have to sell my perfectly good G27 because they've partnered up with thrustmaster and you need a licenced wheel.... absolutely pathetic from a consumers point of view. I play GT5 over Forza because it supports my wheel!!
 

G Rom

Member
1080p is great news, it will make detailed horizon way more clear. Even when in 4x AA mode, Forza 4 wasn't as sharp and clear as GT5 which wasn't even full 1080p to begin with.
I really can't wait for tomorrow's reveal !
 

SarBear

Member
I can't wait for the reveal either. I really don't want to support Microsoft this generation based on their DRM model and such.....but if Turn10 delivers tomorrow in spades I willl have no choice. It's the only game I played the last couple years.

And mother FUCK Horizon. Shit should be bannable.
 

saladine1

Junior Member
BpUFKg7.jpg

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vJcE3zv.jpg

bZPQ9iA.jpg

No More Excuses!
 
So the xbone is supposedly 10x (sans cloud) the power of the 360. Which means it has the power to handle the new resolution easily, with more memory and bandwidth to push those textures through quicker and still have enough left over (hopefully) for niceties such as dynamic weather and time, although that may be a tall order at launch.

Xbone is more like 6 times 360 if the downclock rumors are false. if true it will be 4~5 times the 360. If im not mistaken it has like 2~3 times the bandwidth and 10 times the memory amount.
 

wizzbang

Banned
Forza 4 was 720p as 60FPS, so similar graphics at 1080p can't possibly be hard unless the Xbone has WiiU level power...

It's 2x as many pixels and seemingly much higher detail on top of that and more physics stuff in the back end.
Not to say the XOne can't do it, I mean I'd like to think it can - but you can put me in the camp that is 101% unconvinced that every single game in this new generation will be rendered internally at 1080p. It's a demanding resolution, 60fps is demanding and more detail is demanding.
 

wizzbang

Banned
I just have to write this down, because everything is falling apart. And I am not happy because of it. And I think it is wrong. And it has been wrong for almost a decade.

What am I talking about?

When first Forza on Xbox was released in 2005 it was directly competing GT4 released in 2004. At that point of time, HID force feedback wheels were already a very serious market product that was present in homes of hundreds of thousands of players worldwide, mainly thanks to Logitech efforts and their production of Dual Force/Wingman and Driving Force family of wheels that practically changed the driving genre forever.

At the point of first Forza arrival, there were 3 extremely well-sold Logitech FFB/USB-HID wheels: second generation of USB/HID PC wheel Wingman Formula (270 degrees) that was perfectly working on PS2, three generations of Dual Force wheels USB/HID (270 degrees - models known as Dual Force, Driving Force and GT Force, also working on both PC/PS2 and also a legendary Logitech's Driving Force Pro model (USB-HID/900 degrees, PC/PS2), that will later become the best selling driving wheel of all time. I do not know the numbers for all those wheels, but I can presume that in 2005 there were hundreds of thousands them in the world.

But let's take a step back first.

What is ironic today - and not only today - is how actual HID technology and all foundations for USB force feedback wheels that 99% of the world is using today under Immersion Company's TouchSense technology license is actually made by - MICROSOFT. Yeah, you read it right. Microsoft.

Microsoft's own DirectInput technology - which Microsoft deliberately showed down the drain in favor of Xinput, which allows them monitoring and licensing of hardware - was the real pioneer of the full force feedback technology that we know today, used on legendary Microsoft Sidewinder FFB wheel back in 2000 (Immersion Corp. came out with their TouchSense technology a full year later, in 2001, and launched its first wheel full year after the Sidewinder).

And best part: DirectInput supported HID. Sidewinder is a full USB/HID wheel.

And now comes the juicy part. The Immersion Company that licenses its own proprietary force feedback technology almost to the whole world is the same Immersion Co. that Microsoft settled with about patents Immersion successfully claimed back in 2004, prior to Xbox360 release, regarding the usage of their patents in their Xbox controllers. Thanks to that settlement, X360 launched with rumble effects in their controllers day one.

In the same time, Sony - the company that is preparing the third consecutive console that will *probably* use the same USB-HID standard as whole world (except Microsoft) is using for the last 13 years, remained in dispute with Immersion without settlement, which finally ended with great damages Sony had to pay to Immersion regarding rumble patents, which was the main reason why PS3 console was launched without rumble effects in controllers and without FFB support in wheels for driving games. Why? Because the same line of patents covers both technologies, owned by Immersion. It was after very EU launch of PS3 that dispute was settled and damages payed and Sony agreed to pay Immersion fee for usage of their technologies. And it was the moment when Sixasis was finally replaced with Dual Shock 2 and when legendary update finally brought force feedback to F1 Championship Edition and very GT:HD (which was already released WITHOUT force feedback support) and USB-HID force feedback technology was again part of PlayStation console, this time PS3.

And that is the same licensing/patents we are talking about. One that Microsoft settled with Immersion 2 years before Sony. And they are still using it and they've been using it all along.

Now let us get back to history for a second.

If you remember, Gran Turismo 4 was released in 2004. It took 2 years to release GT:HD demo, and another year until release of GT5:prologue. And then, another two years have passed until GT5 was released. In the meantime, Microsoft Games and Turn10 pumped out Forza 1 (2005), Forza 2 (2007) and Forza 3 (2009).

Now let us just imagine.

IF Microsoft allowed the usage of USB-HID protocols on their consoles and allowed all those hundreds of thousands of potential owners of FFB wheels to be able to actually use them on Xbox/Xbox360, the success of the Forza franchise would be immensely greater.

During the infamous 2007-2009 period (also known as Gran Depression™) Gran Turismo fans were going absolutely insane over the fact how their wheels can't be used on X360 while GT5 was facing one delay after another. Also, dozens of thousands of PC players were pretty uninterested in Forza just because their wheels can't work with it.

And what Microsoft do in the meantime? First, they "invent" their own version of Xinput that supports wheels and then they produce that toy called Microsoft Wireless Force Feedback wheel (I am talking about 2006 actual wheel, not that U-shaped thingie released in 2011) and they also license the same tech to Logiitech (that starts the production of Driving FX model, but they soon ditch it because they can't break even: licensing a X360 license and actual hardware parts that have to be bought from Microsoft and put inside the wheel so it can be recognized by console - infamous "Infineon Chip" - at the end cost too much to keep the wheel price popular, so they just bail out).

I had that MS wheel and played Forza 2, Project Gotham 2&3, Test Drive Unlimited and Race Pro with it. In the same time I had DFP which I used to play all PS2 driving games with. Guess what? MS wheel and MS Xinput FFB solution SUCKED BIG TIME compared to HID-USB wheels (including my DFP).

But they didn't stoop there, no.

In 2009 they've announced legendary deal with Fanatec, that will lead to Forza 3 being first X360 game that will actually support 900-degree (which we will later learn it is not actually simulated, but emulated: XID-driven force feedback essentially does not communicate with the game directly, but instead it creates FFB through pre-determined commands, practically emulating FFB effects and linarity from 270-degree commands that corresponds with degrees supported by controller. As a side-result, sensation of countersteer on FFB wheels in 900-mode is severely compromised because system can't cope with maintaining *tensioned* FFB (as you can experience on either PC/PS3 where you can *save* the grip when you loose it) because of the line of FFB "command" has already being issued to device). But then came the issues with linearity, buffers and all that jazz. Despite Fanatec managed to find some great wizardry to actually portray X360 FFB close to one at HID-mode, it was still a let-down.

But even then people were buying Fanatec PWTS and GT2 models, together with CSP pedals and continue to invest into Forza series. Even then some of the "hundreds thousands" HID-army decided to bite the bullet, they've sold their Logitechs and bought Fanatecs because they were working on all platforms and on top of that they bought X360 consoles, Forza games and probably Gold memberships.

During that same period, Logitech launches its legendary G25 model and later G27. They lauch new generation of 270-degree FFB wheel in budget range, also supported by both PC/PS3, Driving Force EX. It allso launches new generation of Force model, Driving Force GT, that will be remembered as last wheel manufactured by Logitech. All those wheels are bought by PS2/PS3 and PC players around the world - thanks to crazy Logitech's policy of worldwide distribution and merchandising that will ultimately lead to their fall and demise of their wheel program - on top of the existing older models. And among those players there were tens of thousands during the aforementioned Gran Depression™ that would jump on X360 wagon and Forza 2&3 games only if their wheel would be supported.

But no. Microsoft was smarter then anyone..

They continued their policy when Forza 4 was announced. The new, broader partnership with Fanatec was highlighted, resulting with 2 new FFB models, officially branded as Forza Motorsport wheels. CSR and CSR Elite. Thankfully for many of today's owners of CSR/CSRE, Fanatec manufactured few cheaper models of pedals then superior CSP, so some could buy their sets for more reasonable money (but it was still a hefty, few hundreds of moneys investment). Forza 4 was spectacularly demoed with CSRE wheel on E3 2011 and released in the same year, aggregating great scores of media and users and announcing big partnership with Pirelli for the tyre model. But again, released version of the game was plagued with broken linearity and buffers when using wheels. Turn10 was so arrogant that they accused Fanatec for the issue, although it was clearly their own physics/Xinput emulator modeling that was causing the issue. Yoritomo was one of the first who presented the evidence which was soon blacklisted on the official forums. But thank to all voices from wheel users, Turn10 finally released FM4 update (one and only) that provided us with Simulation physics and proper 900-degree linearity (still emulated, still plagued by connectivity issues, but it was working, thank God).

In the meantime, GT5 was released, with another great USB/HID wheel to support it, Thrustmaster T500RS. Needless to say, Fanatec was smart enough to never produce wheel that will only work with X360, so many CSR/CSRE owners also opted for those wheels because they were multiplatform - and were giving a better performance when in USB-HID mode, just to highlight that little fact.

And then came 2013 and recent news. And all I feel is complete disbelief.

Almost a full decade later I still can't fathom what is going on in heads at people at Microsoft. How can anyone with even grain of sanity in their head decide to create a simulation-driving game that will be first-party and funded with hundreds of million of dollars through its development - but in the same time decide it will not support a peripheral standard that is superior then Xinput while already embraced by hundreds of thousands (if not even millions) players of that same genre in the world?

They didn't opted to loose potential sales and buildup of userbase on only one platform (Xbox and Forza 1) or two platforms (Forza 2/3/4 and X360) - they now decided to do the same with the third consecutive platform and make angry all people who invested into extremely expensive peripherals to play their flagship racing franchise - and other driving games on their platform that were only supporting Xinput - through last 7 years. Why are they doing that? What is the math beyond such short-sighted and absolutely non-visionary decision?

I can only fathom the success Forza series would have if first game and first console were to support 270-FFB wheels of the time and if Forza 2 supported the same. I can only fathom what stellar numbers would they achieved if X360 and Forza 3 - released in the very time of Gran Depression™ - were to support USB-HID wheels. And what would it done to popularity of the franchise and platform itself. Also, success of Forza 4 would probably be much greater, same for Forza Horizon. And same for all other driving games - and as we all know X360 had a damn great number of them, from exclusive ones (PGR, TDU, RacePro) to multiplatform releases (when I am already writing this down, I have to congratulate Codemasters on their FFB engine used on X360, it was probably the best third-party FFB on X360, great job done there in all Codemasters games, especially F1 2011, Dirt 3 and GRID 2) - which would all be much more popular and played (and BOUGHT, together with damn XBOX LIVE GOLD sweet money needed to play online) if Microsoft only decided to support the standard and technology they invented and founded themselves in year 2000.

And for the final spectacle, they now have a Forza 5, on next-generation console, as first simulation game that will cherish the next-gen. And in that very moment they announce how none of the X360 peripheral will be supported and there is no evidence they will ditch Xinput in favor of DirectInput, as everybody with some sanity would do. And in the same time, their main contender is launching a game on the current-platfoorm, handing them AGAIN an empty space to grab from sea of those ready to jump in the early adoption madness. With their USB-HID and X360 wheels in the hands, awaiting to see have the white collars of Redmond finally came to their senses.

Unbelievable.

Damn, I was really inspired now when I look the wall of text. Sorry for that, Friday night. Off to play some GT5 online with my friends. Monday is only two nights away, I am really, honestly and wholeheartedly waiting for some good news about XboxOne. May support for USB-HID standard be that news.

Rant over.

BTW I should probably post this in the main Forza 5 thread too? Maybe later.

BTW2 Sorry to hear FordGT get banned. He was hilarious in his doings. He will be missed in Monday.


I remember following (most) of what you said here, incredibly closely around the launch of the 360 / PS3 and onward for over 18 months.

The wheel landscape has been a mammoth debacle and I do recall hearing the Fanatecs will be the first truly cross platform, high quality, true FF wheel. (Wasn't that first official Microsoft wheel more of a rumble NOT a FF wheel? Total piece of shit?)

There's a standard for all this - it works on PC and it worked on PS2. IIRC the Driving Force Pro was an amazing wheel and the G25/G27 worked exceptionally on PC / PS3 (not sure about PS2)
It's incredible there's STILL this ridiculous hangup on wheels.

I very nearly went down the crazy car sim rabbit hole at one point, I looked up schematics on how to make a 'wheel stand' for the loungeroom out of wood - which was very adjustable and folded up. I wanted "one wheel to rule them all" at the time which would do my PS2, PS3 and 360 and I could play GT3/GT4/GT5 (not out at the time) and the Forza games.

Alas it was not meant to be and it sounds like Microsoft still don't give a shit about supporting the standard(s) properly. If you're a "medium" sim racer (ie: console sims) you're kind of shit out of luck for a good, cheap solution without multiple wheels / consoles.
If you're an utter nutcase PC gamer with a huge budget, I believe there's some real bananas wheels out there. Of course they are PC only.

Standards,... sigh.
 
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