Their forum admin backed out on a promise he made for Child's Play until forum members started calling them on it.
Other forum members egged on a female forum member to meet up with a guy on Craigslist or some such alternative to explore sex that included cutting. She came back and said he cut her genitals and she might need to go to the hospital. Everyone that egged her on was just like, "Oh I'm sorry that sucks you should go to the hospital".
They have sections where you can talk about the daily strips but infract anyone with a negative opinion.
PA is pretty fucking awful. Community wise, at least.
With that said, I still think dickwolves wasn't that bad. The butt of the joke were the assholes who minimize rape/couldn't care less, not the actual victim. But if the PA guys were smart enough to explain that instead of getting offended that someone got the wrong idea, it would have ended better, so that's their own fault as well. But even then, they probably shouldn't have used that type of situation to get their point across anyway.
Good for Fullbright. Good to see people taking action instead of simply talking.
I think you have an obligation to realize that gaming, as a whole, is trying and progressing on this front. I think that the general acknowledgement of Gabe's comments as inappropriate and offensive is all you really need without praising people who back out of PAX and expecting more extreme behavior from others.
Gabe was wrong and the industry has acknowledged that. Any further action just serves to punish Gabe for being wrong rather than working towards an more inclusive future. Seeking to hurt those you disagree with is not the way to make these issues more palatable to the masses.
Again, this is about punishment, not justice. People are so incensed at Orson Scott Card's comments that they want to punish anyone willing to do business with him. That not about gay marriage. That's petty and superficial. Card is wrong and offensively so, but hiring a writer who is good at writing doesn't make the creators of Shadow Complex into similar monsters.
IIRC, the blowup about the dickwolves comic wasn't actually about the comic, there were only a couple bloggers who wrote some mild criticisms of the comic, bloggers you wouldn't expect PA or any of their fanbase to pay attention to anyway. The blowup happened when the PA fanbase got word of those blogs and began inundating them (and other feminist blogs) with vile, misogynistic comments, while the PA guys just stood by and claimed to have nothing to do with them. Naturally, this escalated to a larger flamewar that they, rather than try to defuse in any way, just kept adding fuel to with trollish tweets directed at feminists and even rape victims, because that's how they react to even mild criticism.
Not enough proof for me. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Right, but they are not automatically granted space and time at private events. People who run private events are free to structure them as they wish.
What would have been enough proof for you?
well okay.
I agree with a lot of the criticism. Bother me though that the Vanillaware things was brought up. Artists should be allowed to represent women or men as they please. I can't stand censorship.
Again, this is about punishment, not justice. People are so incensed at Orson Scott Card's comments that they want to punish anyone willing to do business with him. That not about gay marriage. That's petty and superficial. Card is wrong and offensively so, but hiring a writer who is good at writing doesn't make the creators of Shadow Complex into similar monsters.
I agree with a lot of the criticism. Bother me though that the Vanillaware things was brought up. Artists should be allowed to represent women or men as they please. I can't stand censorship.
I agree with a lot of the criticism. Bother me though that the Vanillaware things was brought up. Artists should be allowed to represent women or men as they please. I can't stand censorship.
This is about punishing Gabe. Gabe is not Penny Arcade. He is part of it. The other members of Penny Arcade may not share his views, and indeed may hold contrary views. PAX is not actively working against the transgender community, and thus exclusion from PAX will make exactly jack shit difference. This is just a bully tactic to make people afraid to speak unapproved comments involving transgender issues.it makes them slightly shittier people for doing business with someone who publicly and vocally holds those views
I have no problem with that, but I know the difference between making a stance and trying to punish those who disagree with me. For instance, I boycott Chic-fil-a because they directly donate money to groups who actively work to oppress gay marriage. In this situation, I would be a willing participant, as my money would support those organizations directly.i really can't understand why you think there's something wrong with refusing to do business with someone who says or does things you find uncomfortable and offensive to your beliefs. that's just insane to me.
I find it funny they realize they won't be missed and are doing this anyway. It is quite stupid to damage your business for things nobody will remember a week from now.
Their forum admin backed out on a promise he made for Child's Play until forum members started calling them on it.
Other forum members egged on a female forum member to meet up with a guy on Craigslist or some such alternative to explore sex that included cutting. She came back and said he cut her genitals and she might need to go to the hospital. Everyone that egged her on was just like, "Oh I'm sorry that sucks you should go to the hospital".
They have sections where you can talk about the daily strips but infract anyone with a negative opinion.
PA is pretty fucking awful. Community wise, at least.
With that said, I still think dickwolves wasn't that bad. The butt of the joke were the assholes who minimize rape/couldn't care less, not the actual victim. But if the PA guys were smart enough to explain that instead of getting offended that someone got the wrong idea, it would have ended better, so that's their own fault as well. But even then, they probably shouldn't have used that type of situation to get their point across anyway.
Good for Fullbright. Good to see people taking action instead of simply talking.
how about speaking with those people to find out
you can't pretend that making an action game centered around a huge burly white dude mowing down hordes of black people, including sections with the enemies dressed as stereotypical tribesmen in grass skirts with spears and shields and one with a bunch of them dragging off a screaming white woman, isn't full of racist imagery
that it was set in africa only adds colonialism to the stack of issues it deals with horribly
So glad I bailed on that forum when it started getting bad a decade agoTheir forum admin backed out on a promise he made for Child's Play until forum members started calling them on it.
Other forum members egged on a female forum member to meet up with a guy on Craigslist or some such alternative to explore sex that included cutting. She came back and said he cut her genitals and she might need to go to the hospital. Everyone that egged her on was just like, "Oh I'm sorry that sucks you should go to the hospital".
They have sections where you can talk about the daily strips but infract anyone with a negative opinion.
PA is pretty fucking awful. Community wise, at least.
With that said, I still think dickwolves wasn't that bad. The butt of the joke were the assholes who minimize rape/couldn't care less, not the actual victim. But if the PA guys were smart enough to explain that instead of getting offended that someone got the wrong idea, it would have ended better, so that's their own fault as well. But even then, they probably shouldn't have used that type of situation to get their point across anyway.
Good for Fullbright. Good to see people taking action instead of simply talking.
If only the panelists had an opportunity to display what their panel was about somehow, like.. a public description, or something...
Very true, which is likely why they structured it to allow as many viewpoints as needed?
If anything, when you pack up and go home, you make situations like this worse by removing a voice from the dialogue. The "proper" move would have been to hold a panel on transphobia, not take your ball and leave.
tycho's view on the controversy was that art should be exempt from criticism, essentially
i believe that this is what they were referring to
My take as well.This is about punishing Gabe. Gabe is not Penny Arcade. He is part of it. The other members of Penny Arcade may not share his views, and indeed may hold contrary views. PAX is not actively working against the transgender community, and thus exclusion from PAX will make exactly jack shit difference. This is just a bully tactic to make people afraid to speak unapproved comments involving transgender issues.
you'll find that the rest of PA is being entirely silent on this point. one of the forum mods went so far as to shut down discussion on the subject yesterday and told people to discuss twitter issues on twitter.This is about punishing Gabe. Gabe is not Penny Arcade. He is part of it. The other members of Penny Arcade may not share his views, and indeed may hold contrary views. PAX is not actively working against the transgender community, and thus exclusion from PAX will make exactly jack shit difference. This is just a bully tactic to make people afraid to speak unapproved comments involving transgender issues.
I find it sort of sad that the most prevalent reaction to Mike's ignorance, while inappropriately displayed, is condemnation.
It seems to me that the proper thing to do would be to try to talk to the person about the issue and help them understand all aspects of it. From his post, it seems that Mike is not a bad person, nor is he trying to be bigoted (although, as he himself observes, his attitude becomes snarkish when he is attacked.)
holding opinions that are naive and ignorant and responding to people who criticize you for them in a strongly offensive and negative way will make bad shit happen
Not even close to what he was saying.
Its very weird to pull up a story about a game with frankly visionary art and hear why it shouldnt exist, or to hear what I supposedly fantasize about, or what kind of power I supposedly revere, and any attempt to defend oneself from these psychotic projections or to assert that creators may create is evidence of a dark seed sprouting in the heart. Its an incredible state of affairs. Theyre not censors, though - oh, no no. Youll understand it eventually; what you need to do is censor yourself.
How can I support this company
How is believing that people with vagina's are women and people with penis's are men a naive opinion? Last time I checked, that is a scientific fact. That person may see them selves as something else, but by science, they are still male or female based off their genitals.
I'm saying it is unhelpful. There's an opportunity to move forward here, to reach new understanding and improve the industry for all members, and instead, these guys are taking their ball and going home. They don't want to enter the discussion, they want to apply peer pressure to those that do.Are you implying that declining to attend Pax is extreme behavior? Fullbright said they wouldn't feel comfortable there and so they aren't attending. How is that extreme?
This is about punishing Gabe. Gabe is not Penny Arcade. He is part of it. The other members of Penny Arcade may not share his views, and indeed may hold contrary views. PAX is not actively working against the transgender community, and thus exclusion from PAX will make exactly jack shit difference. This is just a bully tactic to make people afraid to speak unapproved comments involving transgender issues.
This isn't the first time the issue has come up with him.
I agree with a lot of the criticism. Bother me though that the Vanillaware things was brought up. Artists should be allowed to represent women or men as they please. I can't stand censorship.
How is believing that people with vagina's are women and people with penis's are men a naive opinion? Last time I checked, that is a scientific fact. That person may see them selves as something else, but by science, they are still male or female based off their genitals.
uh huh
It's not censorship to find something in poor taste and come out saying so. No one is preventing the Vanillaware artist from designing whatever characters he wants to. He has the freedom to draw the art just as those of us in the audience have the freedom to critique it.
This is not their first rodeo. Gabe has pulled this shit before and they have discovered that the absolute best way to deal with it is to not comment on it until they have put together an appropriate response. In a few days, Tycho will write a long news post addressing the needs of the transgendered community that will be solemn, serious, and considerate - this will become Penny Arcade's official stance on the subject. Gabe will add to this post with an apology of his own, and while it will be half hearted at best, it will ultimately show that Gabe is not steering the ship and that his comments had less impact on Penny Arcade's behavior than people are assuming now.you'll find that the rest of PA is being entirely silent on this point. one of the forum mods went so far as to shut down discussion on the subject yesterday and told people to discuss twitter issues on twitter.
You think that if you can just bully the bullies, it will all go away? No. Transgender issues require understanding, not the threat of reprisal.and social pressure against saying bigoted things is entirely appropriate.
I don't think that at all. I think people have to answer for their own mistakes. However, I don't think the issue here is what Gabe said. I think the issue here is that people want the punishment to be so swift and so severe that nobody will ever make that mistake again. I'm very much against the idea of bullying people into agreeing with you, or at least scaring them into not speaking.if you think people should just be able to say whatever horrible shit they want without anyone being able to hold them responsible for it then you and i will never see eye to eye.
Because PAX isn't a democracy and I don't see a reason to allow bigots the chance to parade their ignorance.
I find it funny they realize they won't be missed and are doing this anyway. It is quite stupid to damage your business for things nobody will remember a week from now.
They're independent developers, not advocates. You're assuming that they have both the time and skill necessary to hold a panel on a complex and delicate issue.
How can I support this company
A rather apropos username for this debacle.
Calling for a piece of art not to exist is censorship. Saying a piece of art is harmful to society implies what? Call the art dumb, ugly, gross, etc, criticism is fine, but trying to attribute it to the ills of society reeks of someone suggesting censorship.
So PAX should censor people. That's a quite ironic statement.
well im sure it was a huge blow to PAX
Gabe does not need your fucking money. The idea that hitting him in his pocketbook is the way to keep him in line is foolish and idiotic. And again, this is about punishment. He did something wrong, and you guys want him to hurt for it. That's not right, no matter how you look at it.First off the goal of those boycotting is to prevent money going into Gabes pocket on their behalf which they're succeeding in.
I have been on the business end of Gabe's wrath, and I've had, what seemed like, the entire internet out for my blood. It was an extremely unpleasant period of my life that had very serious repercussions on my professional life. It was based entirely on a misunderstanding - one that was cleared up much later through Tycho. I have never received an apology, but I'm not going around demanding that they give me one or else.To simply call it a bully tactic is no more ludicrous than to suggest that Mike's public views aren't a part of penny arcade, a company which condone these views by doing nothing when he says them.