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[spandexmonkey]

Censorship is the use of legal force or physical force to restrict someone's speech. Saying "This shouldn't exist" or "Destroy this right now!" or even "This is hurting people by existing" is not and never will be censorship, unless you're bringing to bear legal or physical force to destroy the work you're criticizing.

Social pressure is another means of censorship. We actively censor the use of the N word without legal restrictions.

 

[marrec]

Gabe does not need your fucking money. The idea that hitting him in his pocketbook is the way to keep him in line is foolish and idiotic. And again, this is about punishment. He did something wrong, and you guys want him to hurt for it. That's not right, no matter how you look at it.

You're incorrect.

Mike did something wrong, I no longer support anything he represents (including Child's Play).

 

[aeolist]

I have been on the business end of Gabe's wrath, and I've had, what seemed like, the entire internet out for my blood. It was an extremely unpleasant period of my life that had very serious repercussions on my professional life. It was based entirely on a misunderstanding - one that was cleared up much later through Tycho. I have never received an apology, but I'm not going around demanding that they give me one or else.

well you were being a pretty huge idiot during the whole thing

so i guess i'm not too surprised at your attitude here

 

[Akira_83]

Gabe does not need your fucking money. The idea that hitting him in his pocketbook is the way to keep him in line is foolish and idiotic. And again, this is about punishment. He did something wrong, and you guys want him to hurt for it. That's not right, no matter how you look at it.


I have been on the business end of Gabe's wrath, and I've had, what seemed like, the entire internet out for my blood. It was an extremely unpleasant period of my life that had very serious repercussions on my professional life. It was based entirely on a misunderstanding - one that was cleared up much later through Tycho. I have never received an apology, but I'm not going around demanding that they give me one or else.

So trust me. If I'm here defending Penny Arcade, it is not because I think Penny Arcade deserves my support or admiration. I know exactly how much of Gabe's moronic views and comments steer the Penny Arcade ship, and I assure you that there are much more level heads there to keep him from sinking it.

haha wait... are you the controller guy?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Are you really equating not being allowed to have a PAX panel to being denied free speech.
A PAX panel is not a right.
They would still be free to express their opinions elsewhere.

People are trying to censor them by not allowing them to talk in PAX, although they were allowed too and now some people thik they have the right to censor them or that PAX directors shouldn't them allow to speak. Denying their right of free speech is not the only way to censor someone.

 

[thumb]

I think Mike needs an additional "Do Not Engage" tablet. Maybe one that says, "Think and consult with others".

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

You think that if you can just bully the bullies, it will all go away? No. Transgender issues require understanding, not the threat of reprisal.

You just pointed out that Mike won't give a shit and will just put out a half-hearted apology, how can you then go on to say this is an issue about education and understanding when people refuse to do those things? I don't think it's unreasonable at all to ask Penny Arcade give him a written warning for this. I know in my job I'd at least get that for saying this to someone and I'm not in a position where you'd have hundreds of people supporting my statement and saying the victims are over-reacting because they're my fans, ignorant on the issue, or without a shred of empathy. Only Penny Arcade won't do this because he's a huge part of the company, so they're condoning his behaviour.

 

[Coxswain]

Social pressure is another means of censorship. We actively censor the use of the N word without legal restrictions.

No, we do not censor it. You are well within your legal rights to say it as often and as loudly as you like.

However, you are not the only one with the right to free speech, and other people are well within their rights to call you an asshole and to ostracize you for it. They don't get to censor you, but you don't get to censor their reaction to you.

 

[aeolist]

haha wait... are you the controller guy?

no, he found out people on the PA forums were using his spritework as avatars

cue flipping out and lawsuit threats being thrown all over the place

 

[Cyrix]

Social pressure is another means of censorship. We actively censor the use of the N word without legal restrictions.

People still use that word all the time, there's no censorship.
People thinking your an asshole for using a term in a racist way isn't censorship.

 

[faceless007]

Gabe does not need your fucking money. The idea that hitting him in his pocketbook is the way to keep him in line is foolish and idiotic. And again, this is about punishment. He did something wrong, and you guys want him to hurt for it. That's not right, no matter how you look at it.

It would help if you actually read the statement from Fullbright:

We believe that people’s opinions and actions on social issues and business ethics are important. We believe that agreeing to pay the organizers of PAX over $1,000 for booth space, and to present our game on their showfloor for four days, provides explicit support for and tacit approval of their publicly demonstrated positions on these subjects. And we have finally come to the conclusion that we cannot support Jerry, Mike, and their organization by participating in this event.

We know that this will do them no harm; that’s not the point. Another developer will take our slot at the Megabooth; they won’t lose any ticket sales; we won’t hurt their feelings. If anything, we’re hurting ourselves– our ability to reach new fans who might not have heard of Gone Home, to connect with players, sell stuff, meet with press and video crews, and so on.

But this is not something that we’re doing for practical reasons.

We are a four-person team. Two of us are women and one of us is gay. Gone Home deals in part with LGBT issues. This stuff is important to us, on a lot of different levels. And Penny Arcade is not an entity that we feel welcomed by or comfortable operating alongside.

God forbid a small company be selective about the entities with which they want to carry a professional association.

 

[Akira_83]

no, he found out people on the PA forums were using his spritework as avatars

cue flipping out and lawsuit threats being thrown all over the place

oh ok sorry

i was thinking this was the controller douche who penny arcade brought attention too that time

thanks for clearing that up

 

[crazygambit]

funnily enough, this is better for their exposure than actually going to PAX

Or totally calculated? It's hard to tell anymore what's genuine and what's just business decisions.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Gabe does not need your fucking money. The idea that hitting him in his pocketbook is the way to keep him in line is foolish and idiotic. And again, this is about punishment. He did something wrong, and you guys want him to hurt for it. That's not right, no matter how you look at it.

How is him needing my money relevant to this? People don't want to contribute to him financially due to it no matter if he needs their money or not. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

 

[AkuMifune]

Good move Steve. Much respect.

Can't wait to play Gone Home.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

People still use that word all the time, there's no censorship.
People thinking your an asshole for using a term in a racist way isn't censorship.

People thiking you shouldn't be allowed to use a term is censorship.

People thinking you shouldn't be allowed to talk in public about your ideas is censhorship.

 

[kick51]

This is not their first rodeo. Gabe has pulled this shit before and they have discovered that the absolute best way to deal with it is to not comment on it until they have put together an appropriate response. In a few days, Tycho will write a long news post addressing the needs of the transgendered community that will be solemn, serious, and considerate - this will become Penny Arcade's official stance on the subject. Gabe will add to this post with an apology of his own, and while it will be half hearted at best, it will ultimately show that Gabe is not steering the ship and that his comments had less impact on Penny Arcade's behavior than people are assuming now.

It's like you guys have never read Penny Arcade before.

So, how are they supposed to resolve this? They can't demonstrate a change of heart. People fighting for an apology are just begging for a very corporate response, if they are pressured to do so. That helps nobody.

It's not about education, btw. I'm pretty sure they understand perfectly well all the issues. Now it's time to figure out how to deal with someone who just doesn't care at all--this indie dev is on the right track. You pull out all support for them.

 

[Sqorgar]

Mike did something wrong, I no longer support anything he represents (including Child's Play).

Correction: Gabe thought something wrong. That's different than doing something wrong. If you want to show me evidence to where he was actively working against the interests of the transgender community, I'm willing to revise my position. But threatening people who think the wrong thing, rather than working to change their mind, does not sit well with me.

You just pointed out that Mike won't give a shit and will just put out a half-hearted apology, how can you then go on to say this is an issue about education and understanding when people refuse to do those things?

Nobody has given Gabe a compelling reason to change his mind. Like I said, this isn't about education, it's about punishment. Gabe didn't think he did anything wrong, and then to have a hundred people jump on top of him over it is just going to make him resentful and defensive. He's less likely to change his mind now. And getting even a half assed apology is more than the trans community deserves after the aggressive way they have acted against him.

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to ask Penny Arcade give him a written warning for this. I know in my job I'd at least get that for saying this to someone and I'm not in a position where you'd have hundreds of people supporting my statement and saying the victim's over-reacting because they're my fans, ignorant on the issue, or without a shred of empathy. Only Penny Arcade won't do this because he's a huge part of the company, so they're condoning his behaviour.

A written warning? Again, this is all about negative reinforcement. If you have children, you realize that there's times when negative reinforcement is appropriate, and times when it will just make your kids more stubborn and less likely to cooperate. That's what this situation is. Any attempt to punish Gabe for his comments is going to have the direct result of developing resentment and anger from him and the fans of Penny Arcade, doing far more damage to the transgendered cause than anyone would like to admit. And yes, I think Gabe has the mind of a child.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

This is not their first rodeo. Gabe has pulled this shit before and they have discovered that the absolute best way to deal with it is to not comment on it until they have put together an appropriate response. In a few days, Tycho will write a long news post addressing the needs of the transgendered community that will be solemn, serious, and considerate - this will become Penny Arcade's official stance on the subject. Gabe will add to this post with an apology of his own, and while it will be half hearted at best, it will ultimately show that Gabe is not steering the ship and that his comments had less impact on Penny Arcade's behavior than people are assuming now.

It's like you guys have never read Penny Arcade before.

I'd say that I don't read PA often, but did the whole "Dickwolves" ordeal ended this way? As ar as I know they never apologized.

 

[spandexmonkey]

No, we do not censor it. You are well within your legal rights to say it as often and as loudly as you like.

However, you are not the only one with the right to free speech, and other people are well within their rights to call you an asshole and to ostracize you for it. They don't get to censor you, but you don't get to censor their reaction to you.

So if we're talking legal definitions then yes until someone is calling for legislation against artwork featuring titillation, then there has been no call for censorship. So to be more specific, I saw it as a call for self censorship. Which is actually what Tycho says specifically:

They’re not censors, though - oh, no no. You’ll understand it eventually; what you need to do is censor yourself.

 

[mollipen]

As someone signed up to do two panels at the upcoming PAX Prime (both about LGBTQ issues), I'm really torn on this. Part of me feels like I should pull myself from the event on that level, but on the other side, I think the best thing to do is to continue to use the chance that PAX provides me to help educate people on the issues that are important.

And, to be clear, my mixed emotions don't come from whatever Gabe/Mike has said on Twitter—it comes from the PAX AUS panel that has been approved and which—at least partially—goes directly against the panels I am a part of and greatly believe in. (Not to mention the other panels that have gone on at PAX which also talk about the importance of inclusiveness in the gaming community.)

 

[aeolist]

So if we're talking legal definitions then yes until someone is calling for legislation against artwork featuring titillation, then there has been no call for censorship. So to be more specific, I saw it as a call for self censorship. Which is actually what Tycho says specifically:

oh well since we're not actually going to use the real practical definition then i can say that you telling me that i can't ask vanillaware to not have shitty female characters is also censorship

 

[thumb]

Mike just posted an update and apology on the front page.

 

[marrec]

Mike just posted an update and apology on the front page.

His apology amounts to "I'm sorry I can't stop being an asshole." which isn't an apology.

 

[Coxswain]

So if we're talking legal definitions then yes until someone is calling for legislation against artwork featuring titillation, then there has been no call for censorship. So to be more specific, I saw it as a call for self censorship. Which is actually what Tycho says specifically:

We're not talking "legal definitions". We're talking "the definition that produces a coherent meaning for the word."


Edit: Spoiler: Tycho's isn't it.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Na, pretty sure he just said that the trailer for the game at E3 2k....7(?) contained what might be construed traditionally as racist imagery. Pretty sure he went out of his way to say that the game probably wasn't racist, and that the imagery was most likely used unintentionally.

Yes, thank you.I might make a thread about this just for the sake of clarity.

And I'm seriously disappointed in PA. Brash humor can be used without being an asshole when interacting with people

 

[doublenagger]

Or totally calculated? It's hard to tell anymore what's genuine and what's just business decisions.

either way this is a very good pr move, calculated or not

 

[thumb]

His apology amounts to "I'm sorry I can't stop being an asshole." which isn't an apology.

Well, my post wasn't meant to be an endorsement of his sincerity. With that said, I read it as, "I keep being an asshole and I'm clearly out of my depth. This needs to stop for more than one reason."

I do believe that Mike can learn. But remember that brains are analog and take time to rewire. Sometimes people need a bit to fully understand how they can be better in the future.

 

[spandexmonkey]

oh well since we're not actually going to use the real practical definition then i can say that you telling me that i can't ask vanillaware to not have shitty female characters is also censorship

Calling them shitty characters is fine criticism in my opinion, but I find it offensive that you want them to stop having them in their games.

We're not talking "legal definitions". We're talking "the definition that produces a coherent meaning for the word."


Edit: Spoiler: Tycho's isn't it.

Oh if you're not using the legal definition, then yes it is censorship and Tycho is still right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-censorship

 

[JDSN]

Or totally calculated? It's hard to tell anymore what's genuine and what's just business decisions.

Im surprised it took four pages for someone to make this kind of statement.

 

[Sqorgar]

As someone signed up to do two panels at the upcoming PAX Prime (both about LGBTQ issues), I'm really torn on this. Part of me feels like I should pull myself from the event on that level, but on the other side, I think the best thing to do is to continue to use the chance that PAX provides me to help educate people on the issues that are important.

And, to be clear, my mixed emotions don't come from whatever Gabe/Mike has said on Twitter—it comes from the PAX AUS panel that has been approved and which—at least partially—goes directly against the panels I am a part of and greatly believe in. (Not to mention the other panels that have gone on at PAX which also talk about the importance of inclusiveness in the gaming community.)

So you are offended that PAX has given someone a platform on which they can discuss conflicting ideas, or that PAX doesn't agree with you completely in all things and shut out all competition for discussing these ideas?

I don't have a lot of pity here. If you are right, then you have an opportunity make your argument to a large audience of receptive ears. Whether those other guys are right or wrong or jerks or saints, it doesn't mean that listening to them is going to make their audience automatically follow suit.

So get up there and say what you think needs to be said. Just allow for others to do the same.

 

[OneEightZero]

Has this been posted yet?

http://penny-arcade.com/2013/06/21/well-that-escalated-quickly

 

[AwShucks]

Didn't a PAX have a panel about transgender issues in gaming? Not saying that gives the PA guys a pass for making some crude remarks, but I think people are overblowing this. Just like people overblow the majority of hot button issues.

 

[paperboywriter]

respect steve and co

 

[faceless007]

His apology amounts to "I'm sorry I can't stop being an asshole." which isn't an apology.

Which is basically what his apology after the dickwolves debacle amounted to as well.

Circles ground round and around....

Edit: OK, after reading it, that's a bit glib, he does seem sincerely sorry for hurting people. He also doesn't display any interest or inclination to understand why his behavior was so hurtful to the trans community in the first place--in fact he just says "I don't give a shit about it" which is essentially abdicating any responsibility one might have to be genuinely empathetic or learn about the subject. So I doubt this will be the last time.

 

[Hero]

Gabe does not need your fucking money. The idea that hitting him in his pocketbook is the way to keep him in line is foolish and idiotic. And again, this is about punishment. He did something wrong, and you guys want him to hurt for it. That's not right, no matter how you look at it.


I have been on the business end of Gabe's wrath, and I've had, what seemed like, the entire internet out for my blood. It was an extremely unpleasant period of my life that had very serious repercussions on my professional life. It was based entirely on a misunderstanding - one that was cleared up much later through Tycho. I have never received an apology, but I'm not going around demanding that they give me one or else.

So trust me. If I'm here defending Penny Arcade, it is not because I think Penny Arcade deserves my support or admiration. I know exactly how much of Gabe's moronic views and comments steer the Penny Arcade ship, and I assure you that there are much more level heads there to keep him from sinking it.

What exactly happened if you don't mind me asking? Something with spritework?

As someone signed up to do two panels at the upcoming PAX Prime (both about LGBTQ issues), I'm really torn on this. Part of me feels like I should pull myself from the event on that level, but on the other side, I think the best thing to do is to continue to use the chance that PAX provides me to help educate people on the issues that are important.

And, to be clear, my mixed emotions don't come from whatever Gabe/Mike has said on Twitter—it comes from the PAX AUS panel that has been approved and which—at least partially—goes directly against the panels I am a part of and greatly believe in. (Not to mention the other panels that have gone on at PAX which also talk about the importance of inclusiveness in the gaming community.)

I understand your mixed feelings. I think using the PAX platform to inform people about the subject is going to be more helpful than protesting it. Either way you have my support.

 

[crazygambit]

either way this is a very good pr move, calculated or not

No argument for me there, which is what made me question the intention in the first place.

 

[wakajawaka]

Good for them, I'm glad to see there is still people with principles. I hope they do well as a company, their work is good, they have a good time doing it and people love it. I'll keep an eye on them.

 

[The Blackrose]

As someone signed up to do two panels at the upcoming PAX Prime (both about LGBTQ issues), I'm really torn on this. Part of me feels like I should pull myself from the event on that level, but on the other side, I think the best thing to do is to continue to use the chance that PAX provides me to help educate people on the issues that are important.

And, to be clear, my mixed emotions don't come from whatever Gabe/Mike has said on Twitter—it comes from the PAX AUS panel that has been approved and which—at least partially—goes directly against the panels I am a part of and greatly believe in. (Not to mention the other panels that have gone on at PAX which also talk about the importance of inclusiveness in the gaming community.)

I can understand why you would feel hesitant to continue. But just from that panel's existence (and if they really are sticking to the content implied by their sensationalist title and description), it's all the more reason to continue. You could even use their panel as a teaching moment. Maybe get someone's notes afterwards?

Either way you choose, I respect the hell out of what you're doing.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Has this been posted yet?

http://penny-arcade.com/2013/06/21/well-that-escalated-quickly

Dude really doesn't know how to apologize. I doubt he's sincere at all.

"Well That Escalated Quickly" is your title to an apology? Fuck off, Penny Arcade dude.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

As someone signed up to do two panels at the upcoming PAX Prime (both about LGBTQ issues), I'm really torn on this. Part of me feels like I should pull myself from the event on that level, but on the other side, I think the best thing to do is to continue to use the chance that PAX provides me to help educate people on the issues that are important.

And, to be clear, my mixed emotions don't come from whatever Gabe/Mike has said on Twitter—it comes from the PAX AUS panel that has been approved and which—at least partially—goes directly against the panels I am a part of and greatly believe in. (Not to mention the other panels that have gone on at PAX which also talk about the importance of inclusiveness in the gaming community.)

I think you should follow through. The presence of a panel with an opposing viewpoint means you should show up and do your best to represent what you think is right, not eliminate your own voice from the debate out of principle.

The people espousing views you don't agree with feel - subjectively, psychologically - just as justified in their beliefs as you do. Their experience of their own "rightness" is just like yours. Your silence or absence will have no impact on them. Respectful discussion is the only avenue for success.

I don't know what their panel will really consist of, but I do believe it is possible, and even necessary, to examine the movement for social justice in games and not simply treat every single message and claim coming out of it as a priori truth. People with "good" intentions can make mistakes in logic or perception just like people with "bad" ones. Again, I have no idea if they're intellectually equipped to have that kind of critical discussion. Even if they aren't, it's better to let them speak and tear them down than to not show up at all.

 

[kittens]

Awesome. Home town heroes.

 

[AwShucks]

Good for them, I'm glad to see there is still people with principles.

See I don't get this (or their response) at all. Instead of attending and showing people and maybe opening some people's eyes they back out because of what one of the comic creators said, who is admittedly an ass? Not to mention PAX already has sessions that deal with LGBT issues but because of one guy saying stupid things these people feel like aren't welcome and back out?

It's a cowardly thing to do. Stand up for yourself if you think somebody is being insulting. Inform people who don't know better. Stand with the other LGBT who WILL be there and either are out or are still keeping their secret. And with the panel members at LGBT sessions at PAX.

These Fullbright people aren't doing the LGBT community any favors by backing out.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Nobody has given Gabe a compelling reason to change his mind. Like I said, this isn't about education, it's about punishment. Gabe didn't think he did anything wrong, and then to have a hundred people jump on top of him over it is just going to make him resentful and defensive. He's less likely to change his mind now. And getting even a half assed apology is more than the trans community deserves after the aggressive way they have acted against him.

I see now your definition of justice is if the person in the wrong doesn't perceive he's being wrong then he should be set off scot-free. At fuck those people that were upset somebody was stating they were still what they detested being, fuck them for reacting so poorly to that.

With that I've had enough arguing, if you think the last poster is the one that wins then good job dude.

 

[thumb]

See I don't get this (or their response) at all. Instead of attending and showing people and maybe opening some people's eyes they back out because of what one of the comic creators said, who is admittedly an ass? Not to mention PAX already has sessions that deal with LGBT issues but because of one guy saying stupid things these people feel like aren't welcome and back out?

It's a cowardly thing to do. Stand up for yourself if you think somebody is being insulting. Inform people who don't know better. Stand with the other LGBT who WILL be there and either are out or are still keeping their secret. And with the panel members at LGBT sessions at PAX.

These Fullbright people aren't doing the LGBT community any favors by backing out.

They are now creating conversation about the issue. I would suggest that you may be incorrect.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

See I don't get this (or their response) at all. Instead of attending and showing people and maybe opening some people's eyes they back out because of what one of the comic creators said, who is admittedly an ass? Not to mention PAX already has sessions that deal with LGBT issues but because of one guy saying stupid things these people feel like aren't welcome and back out?

It's a cowardly thing to do. Stand up for yourself if you think somebody is being insulting. Inform people who don't know better. Stand with the other LGBT who WILL be there and either are out or are still keeping their secret. And with the panel members at LGBT sessions at PAX.

These Fullbright people aren't doing the LGBT community any favors by backing out.

Did they say they are doing them favors?

All their post said is that the member of the Fullbright Company are not comfortable with going to an event that is hosted by Penny Arcade after all of the unscrupulous things their founders have been up to.

I think you might be reading too much into their intentions.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Dude really doesn't know how to apologize. I doubt he's sincere at all.

"Well That Escalated Quickly" is your title to an apology? Fuck off, Penny Arcade dude.

They're probably planning a kickstarter to provide quality Gabe apologies.

 

[jcm]

See I don't get this (or their response) at all. Instead of attending and showing people and maybe opening some people's eyes they back out because of what one of the comic creators said, who is admittedly an ass? Not to mention PAX already has sessions that deal with LGBT issues but because of one guy saying stupid things these people feel like aren't welcome and back out?

It's a cowardly thing to do. Stand up for yourself if you think somebody is being insulting. Inform people who don't know better. Stand with the other LGBT who WILL be there and either are out or are still keeping their secret. And with the panel members at LGBT sessions at PAX.

These Fullbright people aren't doing the LGBT community any favors by backing out.

This is a ridiculous attitude. We should all do business with people we think are assholes or else we're cowards? How about this? These guys are jerks, and I don't want to be associated with them. I don't want to help them make money.

There's plenty of places and ways to talk about LGBT issues without first writing some asshole a check to pay for the privilege.

 

[ZeroGravity]

Dude really doesn't know how to apologize. I doubt he's sincere at all.

"Well That Escalated Quickly" is your title to an apology? Fuck off, Penny Arcade dude.

Well considering he isn't even really in the wrong here, I have no doubt he's not really sincere. He has no reason to be.

 

[guek]

The assertive statements that he makes are the reason the suicide rate is so high.

The fact that someone that is worshiped online by arguably hundreds of thousands of people, enough to sell out expos, and possibly by you, despises your lifestyle choice hurts A LOT.

This isn't just one person saying it. It's a person that people look up to.

Ugh. Really? Mike doesn't despise transgender people. He's been horribly insensitive but hasn't said anything bigoted. It's not bigoted to believe that there is such a thing as male and female gender that is distinct and separate from male and female gender identity. This is why transgender people go to such great lengths to conform to the opposite gender, because their gender identity does not match their outward biological gender. Now people are accusing Mike of making statements that cause suicides? Blah.