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Fullbright Company decides not to show Gone Home at PAX Indie Megabooth in protest
- Thread starter Archurro
- Start date
NoirVisage
Banned
BlastProcessing
Member
Are you implying that declining to attend Pax is extreme behavior? Fullbright said they wouldn't feel comfortable there and so they aren't attending. How is that extreme?
exactly
most of the internet controversies they've been involved with have only become significant because they specifically fueled the fire with horrible posts on the site or twitter
What would have been enough proof for you?
Snowden's Secret
Banned
Very true, which is likely why they structured it to allow as many viewpoints as needed?
If anything, when you pack up and go home, you make situations like this worse by removing a voice from the dialogue. The "proper" move would have been to hold a panel on transphobia, not take your ball and leave.
doublenagger
Banned
I personally don't understand what's so good about penny arcade in the first place. Nothing funny, nothing interesting. It's like tim buckley comics
how about speaking with those people to find out
how about speaking with those people to find out
GotchaForce
Member
well okay.
wowwwww
tycho's view on the controversy was that art should be exempt from criticism, essentially
i believe that this is what they were referring to
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
So you think justice is to pretend people aren't cognisant of the wrongs of those they do business with? You have an interesting view of justice.
Nobody was ever censoring anybody. Criticism isn't censorship; an artist is allowed to represent whatever he or she wants in whatever way he or she wants, but people have to have the exact same freedom to criticise their art.
I don't believe you understand what the controversy was about. Even the post linked in this thread has an implicit objection to the claim that the Dragon's Crown issue was "censorship". The overall issue was art criticism in context.
This is about punishing Gabe. Gabe is not Penny Arcade. He is part of it. The other members of Penny Arcade may not share his views, and indeed may hold contrary views. PAX is not actively working against the transgender community, and thus exclusion from PAX will make exactly jack shit difference. This is just a bully tactic to make people afraid to speak unapproved comments involving transgender issues.
I have no problem with that, but I know the difference between making a stance and trying to punish those who disagree with me. For instance, I boycott Chic-fil-a because they directly donate money to groups who actively work to oppress gay marriage. In this situation, I would be a willing participant, as my money would support those organizations directly.
However, having Orson Scott Card write a video game that doesn't tackle gay issues or religion doesn't really seem to directly support his views. It supports Orson Scott Card. And while he has opinions I don't agree with, opinions can and will change. I'm not willing to damage his livelihood as a punishment for having those views - only not supporting him acting upon those views. If he decides to write a book about how gay people are icky, then we have a problem. But if he writes a book that has nothing to do with gay people, then his opinions on that subject are irrelevant.
Don't seek to punish those you disagree with. Instead, try to change their mind and, failing that, minimize the damage of their actions. But don't write them off as assholes for all time.
They will get so much more attention and appreciation doing this than just appearing at PAX, funnily enough.
This can't be real. Can it?
If only the panelists had an opportunity to display what their panel was about somehow, like.. a public description or something...
But see, the game was created and designed by Japanese developers. Just because it has "racist imagery" doesn't mean the issue is with the imagery, the issue is with the person interpreting it as racist.
I'm also questioning if you even played RE5. At no point does a tribally painted figure carry off a white woman (the individual is regularly clothed, and, funny enough In fact, there's some tribal backstory with the majini that makes them to be unfortunate victims instead of a kill em all simulator.
Either way, its probably better to continue any sort of discussion via PM's so we don't muck up the works in the main thread.
So glad I bailed on that forum when it started getting bad a decade ago
doublenagger
Banned
Which is not proof enough to tell if they're bigots or not.
Again we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not gonna call names blindly.
They're independent developers, not advocates. You're assuming that they have both the time and skill necessary to hold a panel on a complex and delicate issue.
I find it sort of sad that the most prevalent reaction to Mike's ignorance, while inappropriately displayed, is condemnation.
It seems to me that the proper thing to do would be to try to talk to the person about the issue and help them understand all aspects of it. From his post, it seems that Mike is not a bad person, nor is he trying to be bigoted (although, as he himself observes, his attitude becomes snarkish when he is attacked.)
Animosity serves no one in this debate.
It seems to me that the proper thing to do would be to try to talk to the person about the issue and help them understand all aspects of it. From his post, it seems that Mike is not a bad person, nor is he trying to be bigoted (although, as he himself observes, his attitude becomes snarkish when he is attacked.)
Animosity serves no one in this debate.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Not even close to what he was saying.
NullPointer
Member
They're well within their rights to do so and I applaud anybody who lives by their principles.
That said, there is a rather large difference between disagreement and hate.
That said, there is a rather large difference between disagreement and hate.
My take as well.
you'll find that the rest of PA is being entirely silent on this point. one of the forum mods went so far as to shut down discussion on the subject yesterday and told people to discuss twitter issues on twitter.
and social pressure against saying bigoted things is entirely appropriate. if you think people should just be able to say whatever horrible shit they want without anyone being able to hold them responsible for it then you and i will never see eye to eye.
This isn't the first time the issue has come up with him.
How is believing that people with vagina's are women and people with penis's are men a naive opinion? Last time I checked, that is a scientific fact. That person may see them selves as something else, but by science, they are still male or female based off their genitals.
Ghost Dad the Whip
Member
1)
Sign up for the mailing list via their website: http://thefullbrightcompany.com/
2)
Follow the fullbright team on twitter:
https://twitter.com/fullbright
https://twitter.com/zusty
https://twitter.com/johnnemann
https://twitter.com/koalaparty
3)
When given the opportunity, do the right thing.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Gender and sex are separate concepts.
I'm saying it is unhelpful. There's an opportunity to move forward here, to reach new understanding and improve the industry for all members, and instead, these guys are taking their ball and going home. They don't want to enter the discussion, they want to apply peer pressure to those that do.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
First off the goal of those boycotting is to prevent money going into Gabes pocket on their behalf which they're succeeding in. To simply call it a bully tactic is no more ludicrous than to suggest that Mike's public views aren't a part of penny arcade, a company which condone these views by doing nothing when he says them.
I realize that, and the same could be said of all people who "believe they are right" and are dismissive of other people's ideas and feelings. It doesn't diminish the importance of trying to have that dialogue.
And internet dwellers still continue to misunderstand what the word censorship means.
It's not censorship to find something in poor taste and come out saying so. No one is preventing the Vanillaware artist from designing whatever characters he wants to. He has the freedom to draw the art just as those of us in the audience have the freedom to critique it.
Same way with the people who seem to think that opponents of Mike/Gabe's comments are "censorship thoughtcrime police". I think the comments he's made are disgusting and ignorant, and his response is even worse, and we have as much freedom to say it as he does to spout those comments.
Gender and biological sex arent the same thing, it is the same for most of the population, but for 1 in 30,000 it isnt.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Calling for a piece of art not to exist is censorship. Saying a piece of art is harmful to society implies what? Call the art dumb, ugly, gross, etc, criticism is fine, but trying to attribute it to the ills of society reeks of someone suggesting censorship.
You're right if thats all they were saying, but it is censorship when people are calling for the artist to change how they choose to portray women.
Okay, so, I no nothing about PAX and Jerry/Mike, but I thought they apologized for their ridiculous statements on Twitter?
As much as I completely support any company or anyone, really, pulling out of an engagement because they don't want to support someones viewpoint (or for it to seem as if it is approval of the view), doesn't it mean something to support, I don't know, the apologetic people? We live in an age where getting an apology out of someone is a difficult thing -- because, lets face it, it's hard to admit when we're wrong. But I don't know why you would move out from under PAX if the people who made those statements asked for forgiveness.
I don't support rape-culture. I do support the forgiving-culture?
As much as I completely support any company or anyone, really, pulling out of an engagement because they don't want to support someones viewpoint (or for it to seem as if it is approval of the view), doesn't it mean something to support, I don't know, the apologetic people? We live in an age where getting an apology out of someone is a difficult thing -- because, lets face it, it's hard to admit when we're wrong. But I don't know why you would move out from under PAX if the people who made those statements asked for forgiveness.
I don't support rape-culture. I do support the forgiving-culture?
This is not their first rodeo. Gabe has pulled this shit before and they have discovered that the absolute best way to deal with it is to not comment on it until they have put together an appropriate response. In a few days, Tycho will write a long news post addressing the needs of the transgendered community that will be solemn, serious, and considerate - this will become Penny Arcade's official stance on the subject. Gabe will add to this post with an apology of his own, and while it will be half hearted at best, it will ultimately show that Gabe is not steering the ship and that his comments had less impact on Penny Arcade's behavior than people are assuming now.
It's like you guys have never read Penny Arcade before.
You think that if you can just bully the bullies, it will all go away? No. Transgender issues require understanding, not the threat of reprisal.
I don't think that at all. I think people have to answer for their own mistakes. However, I don't think the issue here is what Gabe said. I think the issue here is that people want the punishment to be so swift and so severe that nobody will ever make that mistake again. I'm very much against the idea of bullying people into agreeing with you, or at least scaring them into not speaking.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
So PAX should censor people. That's a quite ironic statement.
Beer Monkey
Member
I've been to PAX twice, been reading the strip for 13 years, but yeah, I'm increasingly thinking the guys are douchebags.
Sometimes you do things because you feel it's the right thing to do. It isn't about money or fame.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
I think that's a fair assumption; if they are offended enough to pull out of PAX, then rationally they must be knowledgeable enough about the subject to be offended in the first place, and have enough resources that the PAX exposure is less valuable to the company than their values.
That said, I think PA is well within the bounds to say the things they have said, but Fullbright is also within their right to pull out (as another form of expression).
Half the company made Minerva's Den (while with one of the 2K studios), so you could buy that I guess... they might get residuals for that?
Otherwise just tell everyone about Gone Home, it's going to be a fantastic game anyway.
anatomyhorror
Banned
haha
Censorship is the use of legal force or physical force to restrict someone's speech. Saying "This shouldn't exist" or "Destroy this right now!" or even "This is hurting people by existing" is not and never will be censorship, unless you're bringing to bear legal or physical force to destroy the work you're criticizing.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
.
Are you really equating not being allowed to have a PAX panel to being denied free speech.
A PAX panel is not a right.
They would still be free to express their opinions elsewhere.
Steve Gaynor and Co. are very influential in the indie game scene. Don't discount Fullbright just because you're myopic.
Gabe does not need your fucking money. The idea that hitting him in his pocketbook is the way to keep him in line is foolish and idiotic. And again, this is about punishment. He did something wrong, and you guys want him to hurt for it. That's not right, no matter how you look at it.
I have been on the business end of Gabe's wrath, and I've had, what seemed like, the entire internet out for my blood. It was an extremely unpleasant period of my life that had very serious repercussions on my professional life. It was based entirely on a misunderstanding - one that was cleared up much later through Tycho. I have never received an apology, but I'm not going around demanding that they give me one or else.
So trust me. If I'm here defending Penny Arcade, it is not because I think Penny Arcade deserves my support or admiration. I know exactly how much of Gabe's moronic views and comments steer the Penny Arcade ship, and I assure you that there are much more level heads there to keep him from sinking it.