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[Goliath]

It's no mystery why women shave their bodies: marketing and shame nowadays. The razor companies decimated any social thought of how hair looked on the legs and face. Now it's part of our "identity". Look at the previous shaving thread where women were called disgusting or it's gross to have hairy legs. There is social pressure. You may enjoy it now but you have to wonder how it came to be.

But that goes for EVERYTHING. I mean as long as there has been society people for the most part have wanted to fit in so if less hairy women was deemed beautiful by society they would get picked by worthy suitors and the ones that aren't naturally hairy fake it with plucking and shaving.

The same can be said about any gender roles from how a male is supposed to act with his friends, parents, job and love interest to how women should behave as a mom. This whole idea of self identity is not something that any real culture or society accepts. Individuality is usually a lie. There is nothing idividual about liking and buying mass produced items and associating a brand with yourself.

Society works and accepts people that don't stand out too much. And if you chose to stand out in society you have to be exceptional in some category where society allows it because they envy your natural beauty or skill.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Speaking of social pressures, people in here might find this interesting http://www.reddit.com/r/MakeupAddic..._brief_sociological_experiment_as_always_ccw/

But this is more of a contrast issue. If they always saw her wearing makeup and then she didn't and the difference was from pic 2/3 to pic 1, then I could understand the comments, but if they never saw her wearing makeup I doubt they would naturally think she looks sick. And I'm sure I'd she continued not wearing makeup the comments would go away and no one would notice.

Is it any different from when someone gets a drastically different haircut or new glasses and something looks "off" about them?

 

[Featheredkitten]

I'm recently started wearing eyeliner and mascara. There could be an argument that women are influenced by society into liking it, but considering i went 27 or so years without wearing makeup, I think you can trust me when I say I just like the way eyeliner and mascara look. No other reason.

I can understand the impulse to cover up your blemishes and acne and what not with make up. I can get that impulse when I'm breaking out particularly badly.

Is this a joke post?

She's clearly wearing mascara...

She's wearing mascara, lipstick/gloss, blush, eyeshadow, probably some foundation, and maybe eyebrow powder, depending on what colour her natural eyebrows are

 

[Kitsunebaby]

I wear makeup for the same reason I wear clothing: it's fun to decorate yourself and treat your body like a canvas (though I haven't done anything permanent so maybe I'm more like a dry-erase board). It allows me to be creative with my appearance and I enjoy that.

Now I'm not saying that societal pressure to be attractive hasn't played into my habit, but there's a lot more to it. The people who assume that I wear makeup because I'm some poor little girl who doesn't love myself enough to go without are annoying as fuck.

 

[Valhelm]

I agree. I put make-up usage under peer pressure to be honest or social pressure. Same way women shave most of their body. Do they like it? Possibly but where did that like for it originate?

Does it really matter? It's a bit paternalistic to assume that "women only like makeup/shaving because of a misogynistic society". If a woman wants to wear makeup, let her. If she doesn't want to, let her.

Nobody questions a man's choice to shave his face. Nobody needs to question a woman's choice for changing her body, either.

 

[Zoe]

When you don't, people sometimes ask you if you're sick or unwell. And if you don't, then do on occasion, people sometimes ask you what the 'big night' is about or some such. It's all quite silly and/or annoying.

When you're always around people in one state and then randomly show up in another, I think it's natural to wonder (at least internally) about the change. This isn't exclusive to make-up--it happens with all outward appearances.

 

[studyguy]

My girlfriend loves to draw and tends to have a ton of artistic talent in general. Feel like she treats makeup like another artistic outlet. She loves shopping for new pallets and trying new things whether they work or not. I don't mind it at all, she often buys pallets that I think are a little strange, but she buys it for herself so who am I to argue.

 

[Cow Mengde]

I rarely, and I mean RARELY wear make-up. I think I look just fine without it.

Godzilla don't need makeup.

 

[Kilrogg]

It's the guy thinking something is 'off' or that a lack of make-up means you don't care/aren't looking perfect that's the problem, especially when guys aren't held to the same expectations (not that I'd want anyone held to some of the unreasonable standards I've seen/heard of). It's true many guys don't even notice when you're wearing make-up (this is actually pretty funny sometimes), but the reaction when you're truly not wearing any make-up for some is the sad part.

I haven't met too many of these types in my life, but I know many women who would feel ugly or have to be dragged out of the house if they weren't allowed any make-up. I think it's the shame and ugliness that people feel if they don't wear any that's the problem, not those that genuinely enjoy wearing it because they like to.

You're totally right, I agree. I mean that, because the idea of make-up is so ingrained in our societes and in women's lifestyles, and because some men suck at detecting the presence or absence of make-up, some of us end up genuinely thinking that you're sick/tired if we see you without any make-up one day. That's the sad part. I'm essentially lamenting my own lack of observational skills . Also, the fact that expectations are literally taken up a notch or two when it comes to women's faces.

Basically:

Woman wearing make-up = normally groomed man
Woman wearing subtle make-up = man with basic facial hygiene
Woman wearing no make-up and basic facial hygiene = sick man
Woman wearing no make-up + sick = depressingly ill man or something

It really sucks. To be fair I try my best not to comment on people's appearance in general as long as they don't smell like death.

 

[Amalthea]

She's wearing mascara, lipstick/gloss, blush, eyeshadow, probably some foundation, and maybe eyebrow powder, depending on what colour her natural eyebrows are

This reminds me lately I've been trying to paint my exebrows but that has a rather practical reason since one half is dark blonde and the other is light blonde and almost invisible. It looks uneven as hell.

 

[Vermillion]

Is this a joke post?

She's clearly wearing mascara...

How to determine if it's a joke post:

1) Is the username freenudemacusers?

Yes -> Yes
No -> Maybe?

 

[The Librarian]

I agree, it is a genuine preference for each specific person, I'm just stating that this genuine preference did not spring forth naturally from their consciousness, but rather sprung forth from societal pressures and influences. And if it's an artificial/social construct (as you seem to agree it is), it means we can influence it, on a grand scale, if we so chose. We can't (as of yet) make grand changes to our genetics, but we can change our social perceptions of beauty.

So we need to decide if this specific construct is useful or harmful. I don't think it's in our interest to keep choosing to support this convention, but I'm open to arguments otherwise.

I think those questions are useful to ask, yeah. I mean, I bet if you ask the majority of men they wouldn't like to wear makeup. Though I do think it's important to keep in mind that societal intricacies can be genuinely liked, and not just, "I like it because society told me too."

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

all I gotta say on this issue is

Props to all the women I see on the Train in the morning, accurately applying make-up with all that shaking.

Depending on the Train line, I can barely draw a semi straight line in my sketchbook, to be confident enough to draw on your face in these conditions?

smh, skills

 

[kirblar]

Related to the "body as a canvas thing" - Women now outnumber Men in getting tattoos by a pretty significant margin.

 

[studyguy]

all I gotta say on this issue is

Props to all the women I see on the Train in the morning, accurately applying make-up with all that shaking.

Depending on the Train line, I can barely draw a semi straight line in my sketchbook, to be confident enough to draw on your face in these conditions?

smh, skills

At the same time, please don't put on makeup while driving.
See that shit on the 405 all the time driving to work in the morning. Look at the road, not that compact, god damn.

 

[Nemesis121]

I like no make up, my ex-wife never wore make up...

 

[Deified Data]

Do she/we think she wants to wear makeup because that's just who she is? Or do we think that her desire to wear makeup is influenced by external forces outside her control -- some of which may be insidious?

Are you asking if her desire to wear make-up formed in a hypothetical vacuum? Of course not. What's to be done with the knowledge that our decisions are not entirely our own? Second guess her decision? Tell her she doesn't really want to wear make-up, but was programmed to by patriarchal social structures?

Edit: Post sounds more acidic than I meant it to, but I don't think such existential navel-pondering is all that productive in this discussion.

 

[Opiate]

Isn't this a kind of chicken and egg deal?
Because now I can argue that the indoctrination by society is rooted in basic primal instinct to attract a suitable mate to reproduce.

I don't think so. You're just reframing the discussion already taking place.

Women frequently wear mascara or false eyelashes to increase their sexual appeal. Okay, but how was it decided those things are sexually appealing? Men actually have longer eyelashes on average. So where did this preference come from?

Women often tan themselves to increase their sexual appeal as well. Okay, but where did the preference for tan skin come from? Just a few hundred years ago, tan skin was actively selected against.

There are many more easy examples of this (such as high heels, which were initially invented for men). A huge percentage -- although certainly not all -- physical sexual appeal is not a consequence of our genetics, but is instead a consequence of social conventions we ostensibly have control over and which demonstrably change over time.

 

[Halcyon]

Are you asking if her desire to wear make-up formed in a hypothetical vacuum? Of course not. What's to be done with the knowledge that our decisions are not entirely our own? Second guess her decision? Tell her she doesn't really want to wear make-up, but was programmed to by patriarchal social structures?

How else are you to appear progressively superior to people on the internet?

 

[electricshake]

I agree with this strongly. On an individual level, it's probably too late to significantly influence the preferences of a single person, let alone a grown person, as most people's preferences and attitudes change little after age 20 or so.

But on a larger level, surely we can agree that some women like to wear make up for reasons which are not entirely of their own making.

Yes, some women like to wear make up. But why do they like it? Some women want to wear make up. By why do they want to? Where did those preferences come from in the first place? Some people might argue these are innate preferences that are just built in to women. I would strongly argue otherwise, and would suggest that these preferences are primarily instilled in women from a young age by society at large.

I wear make up because I think I look better with it on, and that makes me feel better about myself. If I was doing anything more than just popping across to the shops I'd put on make up. I don't put any on if that's all I'm doing or if I'm not leaving the house. On a day to day basis (ie for work) I wear a light foundation to even my skintone (it can get quite red and blotchy), some mascara so my eyelashes are visible (otherwise they are very hard to see) and some powder on my nose to take away the shine. I'd wear more if I was going on a night out or for a special occasion.

 

[Featheredkitten]

This reminds me lately I've been trying to paint my exebrows but that has a rather practical reason since one half is dark blonde and the other is light blonde and almost invisible. It looks uneven as hell.

check this out: http://pinstrosity.blogspot.com/2014/01/eyebrowsthe-good-bad-and-deadly.html

Has a thing about dying them at the start, but a little how to colour your eyebrows at the end, the comments are worth reading as well. Good luck!

 

[fawaz]

Speaking of social pressures, people in here might find this interesting http://www.reddit.com/r/MakeupAddic..._brief_sociological_experiment_as_always_ccw/

Am I the only one who thinks the no make up one is the best look and the full makeup the worst?

 

[Opiate]

Are you asking if her desire to wear make-up formed in a hypothetical vacuum? Of course not. What's to be done with the knowledge that our decisions are not entirely our own? Second guess her decision? Tell her she doesn't really want to wear make-up, but was programmed to by patriarchal social structures?

Edit: Post sounds more acidic than I meant it to, but I don't think such existential navel-pondering is all that productive in this discussion.

It very much is, actually. First, it doesn't require a hypothetical vacuum: it could be a preference born entirely of our genetics, our epigenetics, or of epidemiological factors. Alternatively, it could be a social construct.

The reason why this is important: because we cannot meaningfully change genetic or epigenetic variables, and we are only beginning to have the ability to affect epidemiological vectors. They are outside our control in the most meaningful sense. As an example, homosexuality (and heterosexuality) are considered genetic and epigenetic variables, and as such are not considered meaningfully alterable even if our society was radically different. We can't prevent heterosexuality/homosexuality even if we wanted to.

By contrast, we can affect behaviors which are engendered by social constructs. Social constructs are within our control. This is precisely how women gradually entered the work force; our society changed in such ways which made women in the work force socially permissible, and over time (as in, nearly a century) the preferences of women changed.

 

[figadapaura]

But this is more of a contrast issue. If they always saw her wearing makeup and then she didn't and the difference was from pic 2/3 to pic 1, then I could understand the comments, but if they never saw her wearing makeup I doubt they would naturally think she looks sick. And I'm sure I'd she continued not wearing makeup the comments would go away and no one would notice.

Is it any different from when someone gets a drastically different haircut or new glasses and something looks "off" about them?

I think the real problem is how people didn't actually realise she was wearing makeup in the second photo. That's not her normal look, it's still different from her apparent everyday, so why the sickly comments?

How to determine if it's a joke post:

1) Is the username freenudemacusers?

Yes -> Yes
No -> Maybe?

I'll try to remember that.

 

[kirblar]

I think the real problem is how people didn't actually realise she was wearing makeup in the second photo. That's not her normal look, it's still different from her apparent everyday, so why the sickly comments?

She has redness around her eyes without the makeup on. (perfectly understandable why she'd want to cover it up.)

 

[SneakyStephan]

You're totally right, I agree. I mean that, because the idea of make-up is so ingrained in our societes and in women's lifestyles, and because some men suck at detecting the presence or absence of make-up, some of us end up genuinely thinking that you're sick/tired if we see you without any make-up one day. That's the sad part. I'm essentially lamenting my own lack of observational skills . Also, the fact that expectations are literally taken up a notch or two when it comes to women's faces.

Basically:

Woman wearing make-up = normally groomed man
Woman wearing subtle make-up = man with basic facial hygiene
Woman wearing no make-up and basic facial hygiene = sick man
Woman wearing no make-up + sick = depressingly ill man or something

It really sucks. To be fair I try my best not to comment on people's appearance in general as long as they don't smell like death.

You know people can just genuinly look ( or be) sickly (and the makeup may have been hiding it)
The gaffer who posted her picture earlier in the thread without makeup does not look sick or unhealthy she looks just fine.
You ever seen tobi cast dota 2 on youtube? That man looks like death half of the time due to a lack of sleep.

When someone points out you look sick it's most likely concern for your health.

 

[Amalthea]

check this out: http://pinstrosity.blogspot.com/2014/01/eyebrowsthe-good-bad-and-deadly.html

Has a thing about dying them at the start, but a little how to colour your eyebrows at the end, the comments are worth reading as well. Good luck!

When I read the warning about not using hair dye on eyebrows I pictured the result exactly like in that blog post. lol

I just use a pencil stick because I found a color that matches my darker parts exactly.

 

[sonikokaruto]

I rarely, and I mean RARELY wear make-up. I think I look just fine without it.

*pic*

You, m'lady, have amazing skin.



on topic: here in mexico most people call makeup "bondo" as in the stuff they use to repair small dents on cars. Yup. That's what i've always tought, that it should be used to cover some minor imperfections, not plaster it all over to create a new face.

 

[figadapaura]

She has redness around her eyes without the makeup on. (perfectly understandable why she'd want to cover it up.)

I don't think that makes her look ill though.

 

[Kitsunebaby]

I don't think so. You're just reframing the discussion already taking place.

Women frequently wear mascara or false eyelashes to increase their sexual appeal. Okay, but how was it decided those things are sexually appealing? Men actually have longer eyelashes on average. So where did this preference come from?

Women often tan themselves to increase their sexual appeal as well. Okay, but where did the preference for tan skin come from? Just a few hundred years ago, tan skin was actively selected against.

There are many more easy examples of this (such as high heels, which were initially invented for men). A huge percentage -- although certainly not all -- physical sexual appeal is not a consequence of our genetics, but is instead a consequence of social conventions we ostensibly have control over and which demonstrably change over time.

While I agree with your claim that not all societal standards of beauty are biologically driven, I believe you chose some poor examples.

Mascara and other eye-makeup makes your eyes appear bigger. Large eyes are a trait we associate with children, and we as a species instinctually find child-like traits endearing (at least that is my understanding).

Tanning evens out your skin tone which makes you appear healthier (even if you really aren't).

 

[Goliath]

You're totally right, I agree. I mean that, because the idea of make-up is so ingrained in our societes and in women's lifestyles, and because some men suck at detecting the presence or absence of make-up, some of us end up genuinely thinking that you're sick/tired if we see you without any make-up one day. That's the sad part. I'm essentially lamenting my own lack of observational skills . Also, the fact that expectations are literally taken up a notch or two when it comes to women's faces.

Basically:

Woman wearing make-up = normally groomed man
Woman wearing subtle make-up = man with basic facial hygiene
Woman wearing no make-up and basic facial hygiene = sick man
Woman wearing no make-up + sick = depressingly ill man or something

It really sucks. To be fair I try my best not to comment on people's appearance in general as long as they don't smell like death.

I don't agree. The expectations are usually set up by the person themselves. If I have a friend that never puts on make up, I wouldn't assume she is sick without make up because that is how I always have known her however when she does put on make up the stark difference in her appearance will drive me to ask "what's the occasion".

The same can be said about my guy friends. If I know a friend to never have facial hair and then three weeks later when I next see him he is disheveled and has wild facial hair I am gonna wonder if he is OK, depressed, etc. However if my friend has always had wild facial hair and shaves clean for once I am gonna ask "what's the occasion".

I also don't agree with your corelations:

Woman wearing make-up = clean shaven man
Woman wearing subtle make-up = man with basic well maintained facial hair
Woman wearing no make-up and basic facial hygiene = man with wild unmaintained facial hair
Woman wearing no make-up + sick = man with wild facial hair and sick

 

[SRG01]

She has redness around her eyes without the makeup on. (perfectly understandable why she'd want to cover it up.)

I wonder if that was just taken at an inopportune time -- like just waking up or poor lighting. The redness isn't that typical, and is easily solved by certain creams.

 

[norealmx]

My girlfriend wears makeup almost exclusively when she performs (she's a burlesque performer). Personally, I think she looks beautiful both with and without, but I like how she looks with no makeup the most.

 

[Featheredkitten]

When I read the warning about not using hair dye on eyebrows I pictured the result exactly like in that blog post. lol

I just use a pencil stick because I found a color that matches my darker parts exactly.

Yea it's pretty...not pretty, poor woman.

Mine are the blackest black colour ever, like seriously dark, but at least i don't have to worry about colouring them. Better stock up on your pencil what happens if they discontinue it?

 

[Kitsunebaby]

When I read the warning about not using hair dye on eyebrows I pictured the result exactly like in that blog post. lol

I just use a pencil stick because I found a color that matches my darker parts exactly.

Have you tried a light mascara/brow tint? If all you're trying to do is color the hairs (instead of filling in bare spots/ altering the shape) it might be a better choice than pencil. I use a pencil because I've got a few sparse spots.

 

[AlexBasch]

You, m'lady, have amazing skin.



on topic: here in mexico most people call makeup "bondo" as in the stuff they use to repair small dents on cars. Yup. That's what i've always tought, that it should be used to cover some minor imperfections, not plaster it all over to create a new face.

I have never heard such a thing. Not calling you liar of course, but I don't recall ever hearing that. Where are you from?

 

[HappyBivouac]

i prefer the natural no makeup look personally

Oh, you.

 

[Sketchbag]

Does it really matter? It's a bit paternalistic to assume that "women only like makeup/shaving because of a misogynistic society". If a woman wants to wear makeup, let her. If she doesn't want to, let her.

Nobody questions a man's choice to shave his face. Nobody needs to question a woman's choice for changing her body, either.

Not saying they cannot wear make-up. Saying why they wear make-up isn't usually "I like it". There are women who truly love make-up, don't get me wrong. It's just naive to think social pressure hasn't made a lot of women think they like it.

 

[sonikokaruto]

I have never heard such a thing. Not calling you liar of course, but I don't recall ever hearing that. Where are you from?

Tijuana. Half of the weird words we use are derived somehow of the US of A. That's why we say stuff like "parkeate aqui afuera" instead of "estacionate aqui afuera".

 

[PdotMichael]

I don't think that makes her look ill though.

It would if the other people are used to see her with make up.

 

[Opiate]

While I agree with your claim that not all societal standards of beauty are biologically driven, I believe you chose some poor examples.

Mascara and other eye-makeup makes your eyes appear bigger. Large eyes are a trait we associate with children, and we as a species instinctually find child-like traits endearing (at least that is my understanding).

So then why do men have notably longer eyelashes, on average? At some point in the past (and we're talking distant past here, in human evolutionary terms), women were selected for shorter eyelashes and men for longer ones. At some point in the past, it's likely that these preferences were not ubiquitous.

Tanning evens out your skin tone which makes you appear healthier (even if you really aren't).

What if I don't think it creates that appearance? And why was this preference not shared by people 100 years ago, or 300 years ago?

 

[Deified Data]

It very much is, actually. First, it doesn't require a hypothetical vacuum: it could be a preference born entirely of our genetics, our epigenetics, or of epidemiological factors. Alternatively, it could be a social construct.

The reason why this is important: because we cannot meaningfully change genetic or epigenetic variables, and we are only beginning to have the ability to affect epidemiological influences. They are outside our control in the most meaningful sense. As an example, homosexuality (and heterosexuality) are considered genetic and epigenetic variables, and as such are not considered meaningfully alterable even if our society was radically different. As such, we can't prevent heterosexuality/homosexuality even if we wanted to.

By contrast, we can affect behaviors which are engendered by social constructs. Social constructs are within our control. This is precisely how women gradually entered the work force; our society changed in such ways which made women in the work force socially permissible, and over time (as in, nearly a century) the preferences of women changed.

Once your question has been answered, what then? What do you propose we do with the knowledge whether this behavior is congenital or learned? Correct it somehow? What's to correct?

If I've misunderstood you and your only goal is a greater understanding of the issue, I apologize. Your post just reads to me like you're questioning the legitimacy of the women's decision because it may have been informed by societal norms.

 

[The Librarian]

You, m'lady, have amazing skin.

PRO-TIP: Wear sunscreen and don't tan.

I also don't agree with your corelations:

Woman wearing make-up = clean shaven man
Woman wearing subtle make-up = man with basic well maintained facial hair
Woman wearing no make-up and basic facial hygiene = man with wild unmaintained facial hair
Woman wearing no make-up + sick = man with wild facial hair and sick

Look at the picture I posted of myself on the first page, then come back and tell me I look like the equivalent of a man with wild, unmaintained facial hair.

 

[Pryce]

That's cool I guess.

Now, those white boards...

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

My GF looks great with or without in my opinion, but there are some women that do look noticeably better with it on. I really couldn't care less if they wear it though, it's their call not mine.

Do whatever you want. Makeup can enhance beautiful features but you can also eventually get too much. There's a fine line.

 

[Goliath]

So then why do men have notably longer eyelashes, on average? At some point in the past (and we're talking distant past here, in human evolutionary terms), women were selected for shorter eyelashes and men for longer ones. At some point in the past, it's likely that these preferences were not ubiquitous.



What if I don't think it creates that appearance? And why was this preference not shared by people 100 years ago, or 300 years ago?

It's actually the opposite of what you are thinking.

If you look at the animal kingdom from a Lion's mane, to the Peacocks plumage males have had to attract females. So we had to stand out and have stark features to convince females to take our genetic material in those early times you speak of.

Now since we have formed societies we have changed the rules from what nature had intended for us. Humans are the rare specie where the females try to draw the attention of the males and that came much later.

As we both know, the idea of beauty has changed many times in history and is still very different for different cultures. Everything from small feet, dark skin, pale skin, big boobs, big butt, slender or chubby has at some point in a culture been a sign of beauty. Now with worldwide trade and media other cultures are influencing each other and there is becoming more of a standard but it wasn't always this way.

 

[Zoe]

PRO-TIP: Wear sunscreen and don't tan.

Look at the picture I posted of myself on the first page, then come back and tell me I look like the equivalent of a man with wild, unmaintained facial hair.

He's saying that's the point of reference when a person's normal state is with makeup. That's what the whole first half of his post was about.

 

[eudaemonic]

I don't wear makeup because I think I look awful in it. Even done by professionals, I just don't like it.

And then I learned that the FDA is complete shit over regulating what people put into makeup and trace amounts of all sorts of horrid stuff goes in there. No thanks. I don't want to be paranoid there's mercury in my mascara or lead in my lipstick because it helps it stay on longer. I worry enough about that stuff in my food.

 

[The Librarian]

He's saying that's the point of reference when a person's normal state is with makeup. That's what the whole first half of his post was about.

I don't agree with that either, because people can look better without makeup than with it on.

 

[Opiate]

Once your question has been answered, what then? What do you propose we do with the knowledge whether this behavior is congenital or learned? Correct it somehow? What's to correct?

If you don't feel there is a problem, then there is nothing to correct. I do think it's deleterious. However, even if I didn't, understanding is itself a worthwhile expedition. Lots of knowledge does not lead to direct, actionable behavior.

If I've misunderstood you and your only goal is a greater understanding of the issue, I apologize. Your post just reads to me like you're questioning the legitimacy of the women's decision because it may have been informed by societal norms.

Even if we decide that it's a social construct, and even if we decide to change it, we still couldn't (and wouldn't) change the preferences of that specific woman. Far too late to alter behavior patterns at her age, and certainly so for a relatively trivial concern.

Most of the time, when we decide that a socially instilled behavior is deleterious and act to end it, it changes very gradually over time. Mostly, big social changes don't occur because the older generations see the errors of their ways -- or stop preferring their preferences, in this case -- it's because the older generations gradually die off and new social norms are established with younger generations.