People were actually pretty excited.
Yes. That's how it works when there are different options in the game; their values are relative to each other.
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343 claims no ADS bonus in Halo 5, beta appears to demonstrate otherwise
- Thread starter PairOfFilthySocks
- Start date
truestatic
Member
We are a people of tradition. Change bewilders and frightens us.
Imagine the outcry if CS had ADS on all their weapons.
Darryl M R
Member
I see, then yes by your logic I agree it has a penalty. If you equate every thing to having a penalty: sticky grenade vs regular grenade, sprinting vs regular movement, AR vs BR.
ADS most certainly is one of Destiny's problems.
Scoping has always done this in Halo, hasn't it?
well, thank you.
Ah yes, this old chestnut.
CookedChocobo
Member
Fair enough! Why change what works and no one complained about. I just feel like it's inevitable, especially if Bungie jumped ship.
Unknown One
Member
Worst thing possible.
truestatic
Member
Oof. It's more than that. FPS has been marching steadily forward in emulating Call of Duty. People see the way its conventions have slowly filtered into their own favourite long running game series as changes to their identity, homogenizations that make the thing they like best more like the thing they don't like best to appeal to the people who like the other thing better.
When ADS was first... announced? Shown off? Leaked? I can't remember. For Halo 5. There was a brief period of concern that was quelled by the notion that this was a purely visual accomodation for the people who preferred it, and wouldn't confer an advantage.
So now to some degree that's shown not to be the case so we're into panic mode again.
I may have some of these details mistaken, I haven't followed this controversy that closely.
Yes. People are fine with penalties in general. They are complaining about a specific penalty of reduced accuracy for hipfire.
Some also have an issue with sprinting, which basically ruined Halo 4's map structure.
NullPointer
Member
Its almost a year out from release. I think 343 could manage tweaking the spread on autos when zoomed. They'll have the data on hand after all to know how the different weapons and modes perform.
Darryl M R
Member
Now that I understand where you are coming from I want to know for myself if hip fire was reduced more form past games. Would it be upsetting for Halo fans if it was't but ADS was just an alternative option or is it the thought that hip fire was made worse? I know everyone is worried that Halo is becoming CoD but I don't think hipfiring will become obsolete if it is still viable in a significant amount of engagements.
No no no buddy I completely agree with you, I mentioned earlier that I am not attacking the argument that Halo is changing. I completely understand for the hardcore Halo fans that change is nerve racking. And even though I'm looking forward to Halo 5 (I prefer fast pace shoot outs) I would hope 343 is having a good balance so everyone can enjoy the game. My discussion started on the notion that hipfiring will not be penalized because it has not worsen since the past Halo games.
I don't think anyone denies 343's capability, they're suggesting that 343 won't. You only have to look at Halo 4 to see their ability to carry though inadvisable and hugely unpopular design choices.
DarryIMR said:
The problem for Halo fans is pretty simple: the fact that the only benefit of scoping was that it made it easier to see far away targets is a core feature of Halo. The way they have set up ADS will massively increase the effectiveness of every automatic weapon in the game at all but the shortest range. This will have a considerably effect on how the game feels and how people play it - and that worries people.
The reality is that most Halo fans want a Halo game that is true to the series roots. This change, as well as various others, obviously is going to worry those fans.
CookedChocobo
Member
You think so? I firmly believe gameplay is one of Destiny's strengths albeit a bit unbalanced. I'd say Bungie only did a bad job at making hip fire viable in Destiny, COD games balanced hip fire a lot better lol. but too much ADS in Destiny?
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
The logic in this thread is mindblowing. No penalty to hip-fire because it's as viable as it was in other games? Even this is wrong. If 2 people have AR's and one person is ADS and the other person is hip firing and the person who is ADS wins at a certain range because of a tighter spread, that means ADS has an advantage over hip fire, correect? That makes it less viable than in other games because using the same weapon differently trumps using the same weapon the way you did in past games. I don't give a damn about semantics and what "penalty" actually means, if ADS is better than hip fire in some situations, that makes hip fire worse in those same situations, which is exactly what everyone was afraid of. I personally csll that a penalty to hip fire.
plasmawave
Banned
You won't die faster. You just live longer.
NullPointer
Member
I get the feeling this will be a better public beta than the one they ran for Halo 4.
human onion
Banned
I'll preface this by saying that I don't play Halo, but this kind of ADS will undoubtedly change the game in a bad way.
Increasing an automatic's accuracy at range will increase the average engagement distance of the game. This will end up disrupting the balance of other weapons designed to be effective at specific range, and the weapons would have to be changed to accommodate for a longer range game. The maps would have to change as well to make ADS viable, or at least balanced for the kind of game Halo is. If the engagement distance is longer, then players would be killed more often without seeing their opponent, so a player may find it more advantageous to stay in one place than to move around. As far as I know, this isn't the kind of game that Halo is.
Of course, I'm just talking about the effect of ADS in first person shooters in general. I might be exaggerating the actual range benefit ADS gives in the beta, but if the difference is so small that it doesn't have an effect, then why even have the difference in the first place?
Increasing an automatic's accuracy at range will increase the average engagement distance of the game. This will end up disrupting the balance of other weapons designed to be effective at specific range, and the weapons would have to be changed to accommodate for a longer range game. The maps would have to change as well to make ADS viable, or at least balanced for the kind of game Halo is. If the engagement distance is longer, then players would be killed more often without seeing their opponent, so a player may find it more advantageous to stay in one place than to move around. As far as I know, this isn't the kind of game that Halo is.
Of course, I'm just talking about the effect of ADS in first person shooters in general. I might be exaggerating the actual range benefit ADS gives in the beta, but if the difference is so small that it doesn't have an effect, then why even have the difference in the first place?
A fair point, but you have to understand that many people have little trust in 343 right now. I'd be hugely surprised if they change this before launch, even though they clearly have a good opportunity to do it. There is a stubborn arrogance to 343 which irks me. It wrecked Halo 4 for me, and MCC has hardly imbued me with confidence.
spootime
Member
Okay, I was going to rage post about this being CoD but after watching a lot of streams today I actually generally think the game looks pretty fun to play. Things that need to be changed
- 4 man post game bro down (high 5 breh)
- Ads changing weapon spray at ALL. Preferably just take ADS off of all automatics
- How much the spartans speak
The ADS is especially problematic because it makes the automatics able to compete with skill weapons at a long range. Now in a mid range fight, I have to hit a perfect series of shots with my battle rifle onto a person spraying in my general vicinity with his AR. That doesn't really reward skill based combat. The AR should be a weapon that holds you over until you can find a BR or a DMR or just use your pistol.
The question now becomes whether 343 WILL actually implement any of these changes. Honestly, based off their track record and pretty much every single beta I have ever participated in, the chances are slim to none. Hopefully they are willing to be open minded and change things that the community desires.
- 4 man post game bro down (high 5 breh)
- Ads changing weapon spray at ALL. Preferably just take ADS off of all automatics
- How much the spartans speak
The ADS is especially problematic because it makes the automatics able to compete with skill weapons at a long range. Now in a mid range fight, I have to hit a perfect series of shots with my battle rifle onto a person spraying in my general vicinity with his AR. That doesn't really reward skill based combat. The AR should be a weapon that holds you over until you can find a BR or a DMR or just use your pistol.
The question now becomes whether 343 WILL actually implement any of these changes. Honestly, based off their track record and pretty much every single beta I have ever participated in, the chances are slim to none. Hopefully they are willing to be open minded and change things that the community desires.
NobleGundam
Banned
Why does this topic even need a thread? The ADS to autos isn't even a big deal.. Yeah I get that it's adding penalties but it's very minor. Imo.
343 needs to better clarifying what they are telling fans with intel regarding features, but they don't always do so and don't technically need to.
343 needs to better clarifying what they are telling fans with intel regarding features, but they don't always do so and don't technically need to.
killer rin
Member
I still can't get past how terrible ADS is. It looks terrible, it breaks Canon and it negatively affects firing normally.
Bornstellar
Member
TTK on the autos will still be higher, so it doesn't make them competitive at mid-range, just makes it so you can actually defend yourself by descoping.
7DollarHagane
Banned
Dual Wielding was a thing back in the marathon days as well, so it made sense for bungie to add it.
justgames7604
Member
No because they will be descoped so it would be hipfire battle anyway.
i dunno i'd call it a problem, i view ADS as an alternative to non-ADS, not necessarily better or worse (though i think personally i prefer without). i'd certainly put 1-button supers, AKA win buttons, and weapon balance (rare weapon finds, fusion rifles, shotguns, and snipers at spawn) far higher as a problem in destiny.
NullPointer
Member
That's the part I don't get. I don't mind ADS for use at a weapons maximum effective range, but it doesn't seem to fit with anything 343 have said about their vision of being a spartan and being immersed in that world. Spartans never actually look down the sights - they patch into that zoomed feed.
Bornstellar
Member
Abinash117
Member
You start with SMG/ARs and since halo 2 the person that picks up the BR dominates or does more well than a person that mostly uses an AR. This helps balance it to a point. The main reason( or one of them) people hate SMG/AR starts is that people become defenseless against precision weapons, so I don't see an issue with making the AR more competitive at range .
The ADS isn't really there it is just visually thing that helps soldiers shoot things at range and gives them a zoom. The HUD is linked to the gun like how it was to the previous games, but now every gun has a 'zoom' . I guess that is what they mean. If you look at the AR a visually HUD( I don't know what to call it) comes up to assist with aiming at range.
The ADS isn't really there it is just visually thing that helps soldiers shoot things at range and gives them a zoom. The HUD is linked to the gun like how it was to the previous games, but now every gun has a 'zoom' . I guess that is what they mean. If you look at the AR a visually HUD( I don't know what to call it) comes up to assist with aiming at range.
Portugeezer
Member
It's beta, so it could be true in the final game.
Lol @ people twisting this to defend 343, they lied, ADS gets a bonus, it's not just a simple zoom effect.
Lol @ people twisting this to defend 343, they lied, ADS gets a bonus, it's not just a simple zoom effect.
Maintenance
Member
So, let's see if I can understand this using fake numbers:
- No scope in other Halo games = 10
- No scope in Halo 5 = 10
- ADS in Halo 5 = 12, maybe 15?
- No scope in other Halo games = 10
- No scope in Halo 5 = 10
- ADS in Halo 5 = 12, maybe 15?
Mike Works
Member
Fun Analogy Time with Mike Works
Boss: "Hey Employee, we're going to hire this new Hotshot Popular Employee to do the exact same job as you. It'll be great!"
Employee: "Um... this is the first time you've done this in over a decade. Are we going to get paid equally?"
Boss: "I promise that you won't get a pay cut because of this. Everything will be just the way it used to be. Only now the company will have more options!"
Employee: "Alright then."
- Hotshot Popular Employee is hired. After a small amount of time of both employees working together, they discover how much each other makes
Employee: "Hey boss, what the hell? You said Hotshot Popular Employee and I were going to be equals, but he gets paid twice as much as me!"
Boss: "No, but it's okay because you didn't take a pay cut."
Employee: "Yeah, I realize I'm not losing money, but you insinuated that there would be a level playing field between the two of us."
Boss: "Nothing has changed! Your paycheck is still just as effective as it was last year, and the year before! See? Everyone's happy!"
The End
editor's note: eventually Boss was fired as penance for MCC's matchmaking issues and he went on to make Zynga games or something dumb
Boss: "Hey Employee, we're going to hire this new Hotshot Popular Employee to do the exact same job as you. It'll be great!"
Employee: "Um... this is the first time you've done this in over a decade. Are we going to get paid equally?"
Boss: "I promise that you won't get a pay cut because of this. Everything will be just the way it used to be. Only now the company will have more options!"
Employee: "Alright then."
- Hotshot Popular Employee is hired. After a small amount of time of both employees working together, they discover how much each other makes
Employee: "Hey boss, what the hell? You said Hotshot Popular Employee and I were going to be equals, but he gets paid twice as much as me!"
Boss: "No, but it's okay because you didn't take a pay cut."
Employee: "Yeah, I realize I'm not losing money, but you insinuated that there would be a level playing field between the two of us."
Boss: "Nothing has changed! Your paycheck is still just as effective as it was last year, and the year before! See? Everyone's happy!"
The End
editor's note: eventually Boss was fired as penance for MCC's matchmaking issues and he went on to make Zynga games or something dumb
Catering to what "most people expect" is how you make a generic modern shooter, not how you make a great Halo game.
GuessMyUserName
Member
At first I thought this thread was talking about a bonus for watching ads... took me a bit to realize what ADS meant.
Never mind me.
Never mind me.
This made me laugh more than it should
Shake Appeal
Member
Oh, 343. It never ends with you people.
RichiRamjag
Member
If both ADS and hip fire are not on equal footing, then yes, it is a penalty to hip fire no matter how similar to previous games.
Shake Appeal
Member
LOL. It it what it is. This is the game they want to make. It's just not the game very many people want to play.
Portugeezer
Member
That's a pretty legit analogy
Aiming down sights disables movement abilities (sabotaging the defining feature of Destiny's classes) and removes jumping from the equation by making your weapons worthless in mid-air. Those are problems. Huge ones.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Why would you even compare it to previous Halos? Why would that matter in the context of Halo 5 at all?
It wouldn't.