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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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bengraven
Member
So I have a theory about the three heads and an above user basically helped corroborate that.
1) Dany - masters Drogon
2a) Victarion - at least temporarily, uses the horn to control the dragon
2b) Tyrion - after Vic loses control, possibly Rhaegon
2c) Jon - bonds with Viersion...a white dragon...makes sense.
3) Bran - wargs, uses his harness to ride on it's back
I also think there will be different people at different times.
1) Dany - masters Drogon
2a) Victarion - at least temporarily, uses the horn to control the dragon
2b) Tyrion - after Vic loses control, possibly Rhaegon
2c) Jon - bonds with Viersion...a white dragon...makes sense.
3) Bran - wargs, uses his harness to ride on it's back
I also think there will be different people at different times.
TheVisualizer
Banned
bengraven said:
Victarion is a nobody, Dany will get that horn from him somehow, he's only a messenger. Besides he can't use the horn anyway unless he wants to die.
Jugendstil
Member
I pretty much agree with most of the sentiments expressed in the thread so far. ADWD was good, but there was a lot of digression and at this point the amount of viewpoints is getting sort of unwieldily. I'm not sure how well this one is going to hold up on repeat readings, especially when readers are less starved for new material. If and when the series is complete, this one might seem kind of boring if you choose to reread the entire series. It sort of depends on what happens with the final two books and how much of the setup in this and AFFC leads to a satisfying payoff.
Regardless, I really did enjoy the book. When it's good, it's truly enthralling and there were definitely points where I couldn't put the book down. Finishing it is a bummer, like the day after Christmas or something. Now the waiting game begins again. Oh well.
Regardless, I really did enjoy the book. When it's good, it's truly enthralling and there were definitely points where I couldn't put the book down. Finishing it is a bummer, like the day after Christmas or something. Now the waiting game begins again. Oh well.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I prefer The Winds of Winter because it carries with it a sense of just how depressingly bleak the next book is definitely going to be.Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
well hopefully he has more motivation to keep writing with the success of the hbo series. i read somewhere that he's sold more copies of the first 4 books in the first half of this year, than all those years since release.
i think the very gushing and positive reviews of the book from the mainstream press is very much due to the success of the tv show.
i think the very gushing and positive reviews of the book from the mainstream press is very much due to the success of the tv show.
Just finished the book today. I think my biggest problem with it is GRRM's new love of cliffhangers, which was a big issue with AFFC as well. What made Storm of Swords so amazing was that we had so many great conclusions to story arcs, leaving us wanting to badly know what happens next. On the other hand, the cliffhangers in these books always leave us wanting to know what the hell happened, which is far less satisfying.
I still enjoyed the book, and I'll have to read through again to catch more details, but I wish he would go back to the old style.
I still enjoyed the book, and I'll have to read through again to catch more details, but I wish he would go back to the old style.
yacobod said:
If it's true ( and I agree it would be a bit tacky ) it wouldn't be a retcon. There are plenty of hints in GoT already. It's only a retcon if Martin made something up without foreshadowing it.
Aegon probably is the mummer's dragon, so he is most likely NOT a real Targaryen.
Which leaves only Dany, Jon (does anyone still dispute this?) and possibly Tyrion. Hey, whaddayaknow, three Targaryens.
duckroll said:
We're dealing with the Fantasy Novel equivalent of a Telenovela at this point. I'd be disappointed if we didn't get more stupid "x isn't who we thought he is!" reveals or "y wasn't actually dead!" etc etc.
Just wait until Ned Stark comes back in book 9 and kills Viserys the gold.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I don't know how this makes sense. All the reviews I've read were positive because the book is great.yacobod said:
ZephyrFate
Banned
The strong sales were influenced by the show, but no, I do not believe the reviews of a novel were influenced by a TV show, no. That'd be like saying the Sookie Stackhouse Mysteries are getting more favorably reviewed thanks to True Blood (read: they're not).yacobod said:
LegendofJoe
Member
Martin is fumbling BIG TIME with Dany's story arc, and while I have only read a few reviews none of them mentioned this fact. Dany is the dull smear on an otherwise mostly fantastic book.
ZephyrFate
Banned
All of the reviews I've read have pointed out awesome stuff about Dany's arc that I agree with, such as the politics of rule and how difficult it is to preside over a city you just forcefully took over, with so many different factions all wanting different things.LegendofJoe said:
Sirpopopop
Member
ZephyrFate said:
True Blood would prove yacobod's rule, rather than disprove it, since it's not a critically well-appreciated series.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Depends on the season. True Blood may be trash TV but it receives pretty good scores on Metacritic.Sirpopopop said:
but this talk about the book reviews being influenced by the TV show still makes absolutely zero sense.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
I still want to know why it took 5 years to solve the Knot which wasn't even solved yet. Could the book 5 years ago be anymore slow than it is?
Who knows if Dany will ever reach Westeros? If she travels by land she made see some other injustice being committed in another Free City and spend a whole book there.
Who knows if Dany will ever reach Westeros? If she travels by land she made see some other injustice being committed in another Free City and spend a whole book there.
It's sad that the weakest part of ADWD involved two of its main characters in Tyrion and Dany, who both take up a good half of the book.
Dany - She starts out in ADWD as Queen of Meereen, being conspired against by the Sons of the Harpies within her walls, and besieged by Yunkai from without. By the end of ADWD...she's still in Meereen, being conspired against by the Sons of the Harpies within her walls, and besieged by Yunkai from without. She was never one of my favorite PoV's in the past, but I didn't mind her. I absolutely despise her character and her stupidity in ADWD.
Tyrion - Ever since he got separated from Griff, nearly all his journeys have felt like contrived circumstances brought upon by the author to bring him from Point A to Point B. And technically, if Point B is Dany, he hasn't even reached it, which is beyond frustrating since before I read ADWD, I thought we were finally going to have meaningful interactions between two of the main characters of the story, but as usual, GRRM likes to tease us with characters' arcs converging, but then they always get waylaid. Tyrion, once a favorite character in this series, was a sidestory in ADWD who had literally no impact on the narrative except to send Aegon west.
Both of them could've been condensed to half their chapters.
As for Jon...well, pretty much any PoV chapter in the North was a highlight in the book for me. From Asha to Reek to even Davos (who has normally been a boring supplicant to Stannis for most of ASOIAF). You can literally feel the building tension between Stannis vs. the Boltons. The only disappointment, as others have stated, is that this tension was never properly released with an epic climax like we had in ACOK with the Battle of Blackwater or ASOS with Jon's defense of the wall and Tyrion's trial for Joff's murder.
The only Jon chapter that I didn't enjoy was his final one. And that's only because I rolled my eyes at his supposed "death," which is actually a pretty damning criticism against GRRM. This was the writer who had previously shocked us with Ned's beheading, Robb's betrayal, but does anyone actually think Jon is truly dead here? He has so many outs -- Melisandre can bring him back with the kiss of life; he can warg like Bran; hell, his dagger wounds may not have even been fatal. GRRM has toyed us with so many fake deaths to the point that its lost its impact in this series.
It's also a really shitty cliffhanger to leave on, considering it took him 7 years to write this latest book. I absolutely hate cliffhangers in any medium that leave you asking, "did that really happen," instead of "what happens next?" The latter makes you crave the next book even more, but doesn't leave you unsatisfied -- Dany hatching dragons, Jon killing Qhorin and mingling with the Wildlings, Tyrion killing his father and escaping King's Landing. The former leaves you hanging, like Brienne's "death."
Dany - She starts out in ADWD as Queen of Meereen, being conspired against by the Sons of the Harpies within her walls, and besieged by Yunkai from without. By the end of ADWD...she's still in Meereen, being conspired against by the Sons of the Harpies within her walls, and besieged by Yunkai from without. She was never one of my favorite PoV's in the past, but I didn't mind her. I absolutely despise her character and her stupidity in ADWD.
Tyrion - Ever since he got separated from Griff, nearly all his journeys have felt like contrived circumstances brought upon by the author to bring him from Point A to Point B. And technically, if Point B is Dany, he hasn't even reached it, which is beyond frustrating since before I read ADWD, I thought we were finally going to have meaningful interactions between two of the main characters of the story, but as usual, GRRM likes to tease us with characters' arcs converging, but then they always get waylaid. Tyrion, once a favorite character in this series, was a sidestory in ADWD who had literally no impact on the narrative except to send Aegon west.
Both of them could've been condensed to half their chapters.
As for Jon...well, pretty much any PoV chapter in the North was a highlight in the book for me. From Asha to Reek to even Davos (who has normally been a boring supplicant to Stannis for most of ASOIAF). You can literally feel the building tension between Stannis vs. the Boltons. The only disappointment, as others have stated, is that this tension was never properly released with an epic climax like we had in ACOK with the Battle of Blackwater or ASOS with Jon's defense of the wall and Tyrion's trial for Joff's murder.
The only Jon chapter that I didn't enjoy was his final one. And that's only because I rolled my eyes at his supposed "death," which is actually a pretty damning criticism against GRRM. This was the writer who had previously shocked us with Ned's beheading, Robb's betrayal, but does anyone actually think Jon is truly dead here? He has so many outs -- Melisandre can bring him back with the kiss of life; he can warg like Bran; hell, his dagger wounds may not have even been fatal. GRRM has toyed us with so many fake deaths to the point that its lost its impact in this series.
It's also a really shitty cliffhanger to leave on, considering it took him 7 years to write this latest book. I absolutely hate cliffhangers in any medium that leave you asking, "did that really happen," instead of "what happens next?" The latter makes you crave the next book even more, but doesn't leave you unsatisfied -- Dany hatching dragons, Jon killing Qhorin and mingling with the Wildlings, Tyrion killing his father and escaping King's Landing. The former leaves you hanging, like Brienne's "death."
LegendofJoe
Member
ZephyrFate said:
Okay, what's so great and fascinating about that? There was very little payoff to Dany's story arc in Dance. The only payoff that I can think of is when she mounts Drogon, the rest was full of filler. Victarion and Tyrion should have had interaction with Dany, they didn't, it was a wasted opportunity.
bengraven
Member
TheVisualizer said:
She doesn't really need the horn though. And yet she's probably one of the few that can blow it.
Anyone who uses the horn is not going to be fit to ride the dragon regardless. And since only a Targ or maybe a red priest can survive blowing it...
Maybe an evil Targ?
ZephyrFate said:
I hope GURM's solution to the Mereneese knot is having Khal Jhogo and his khalasar kill Dany & Drogon in the prologue of the TWOW. Problem solved now lets GTFO of Slaver's Bay. Victarion and Tyrion will bring the remaining dragons back to Westeros.
Other reasons why Dany's chapters sucked:
Dany (GURM) said:
Spurns an alliance with Dorne, a major power in Westeros, so she can marry a slaver in Slaver's Bay.
She married the Harpy, or the Harpy's thrall. Wait how did this guy have the Sons of Harpy immediately stop killing in the streets. I guess that it never occurred to her that she was being played for the crown.
Caging up her dragons, and not looking after them.
Allowing the city to fall under siege.
Ignores any and all good advice from her council, and always justifies it with "oh I'm only 16, and I'm young and do not know the ways of ..."
Fucking a sell-sword with a golden tooth.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I see it more that she'll come back to Meereen and give no fucks anymore.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
Her hostage taking was pointless. It didn't stop the violence and she didn't harm them. I think Dany could have made some of the citizens happy if she had simply opened the fighting pits in the very beginning instead of waiting to do it after she was married to the Harpy.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I would like to see Asshai, honestly. It's the only place in Essos that truly screams for exploration and exposition. I wouldn't even care that half the book was all about it. It sounds AWESOME.duckroll said:Fuck Meereen. If Dany doesn't go to Asshai by the next book, I don't think there is any hope for her storyline or chapters. Not like there's much hope even if she goes to Asshai, but at least that'll be potentially more interesting for us.
duckroll said:Fuck Meereen. If Dany doesn't go to Asshai by the next book, I don't think there is any hope for her storyline or chapters. Not like there's much hope even if she goes to Asshai, but at least that'll be potentially more interesting for us.
Why would she go to Asshai?
jett said:
Because it's been foreshadowed since the first book. Asshai and the Shadow Lands is where her dragon eggs came from, it is the last place left on the planet which practices open sorcery and secrets of magic, and Quaithe has been hounding her to go there for the last 3 books. It's heavily hinted that Dany will eventually go to Asshai to discover some secret truth about what she needs to do, then she will sail further East from Asshai, all the way around the world to land on Westeros' western banks.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Man... I totally forgot about that. This sounds fuckin awesome.duckroll said:
Gamer @ Heart
Member
She must go east to go west! Also, it has kind of been hinted at that ashai is the last surviving place of magic and dragon lore.jett said:
yacobod said:
"To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."
Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. "Will the Asshai'i give me an army?" she demanded. "Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?"
"Truth," said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd
This was all the way back in book 2, and fucking GRRM trolls us all by trapping her in Meereen for all of book 5! FUCK!
ZephyrFate
Banned
On the other hand, the possibility of her going to Asshai has just made Book 6 sound even more fucking awesome.jett said:
ZephyrFate
Banned
So... the books will end boringly. Yay!yacobod said:Don't worry they will get Sanderson or Abercrombie to finish the series
Gamer @ Heart
Member
I think GRRM set dany up to be ruthless in the upcoming books. The entire series, she has been told that she must go back home to rule, and this book was crucial in showing that is not what she was born for. She is the mother of dragons, and dragons don't herd sheep goddammit!
Winds of winter I hope will only harden her resolve.
Winds of winter I hope will only harden her resolve.
Basileus777
Member
yacobod said:Don't worry they will get Sanderson or Abercrombie to finish the series
Come on, it would be Abraham.
I'm trying to remember, but I think GRRM said we wouldn't be seeing Asshai firsthand in some interview.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Vic will roll in with the horn and probably prevent that. That or they join her as she gathers dothraki.bengraven said:
LegendofJoe
Member
The shadow temple stuff happened 2 books ago (3 if you count Feast/Dragons separately). So you guys are telling me after an entire book of hanging out in Mereen and doing very little in the next 2 books Dany is going to travel to Asshai, learn some 'truth' about dragons, take ship and travel to Westeros, and then do god knows what?
Martin has written himself into another knot, this one should be called the I screwed up the central character of my book knot.
Martin has written himself into another knot, this one should be called the I screwed up the central character of my book knot.
ZephyrFate
Banned
GRRM: Well you learn more about the Doom in A Dance With Dragons and yes you may learn in subsequent volumes; you may learn even more about that and I dont know if youll see Valyria itself but youll see .you know its a country so theres a city in the heart of it and its a large country, but you may see glimpses of the fringes of the Doom. Actually Asshais another question; its kind of at the other end of the world. Im not sure if well actually ever go to Asshai. You may learn more about it through Melisandre or other people remembering it or talking about it.Basileus777 said:
GOD FUCKING DAMMIT GRRM
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