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AACS Digital Only Tolken....how are you getting 1080p movies around this MS?

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
The AACS Digital Only Token limits output resolution of HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies at 1080i and/or 720p over analog sources (like component video or VGA, for example)

MS just announced 1080p "movie content" via their HD-DVD add-on *and* with a dashboard upgrade so that must imply HDMI out on that device.....


And that still doesnt explain how "1080p movie content" will be output via a dashboard update?

I hope they are not going to have me fill up my 13GB HDD with HD movies on demand, are they?

PS3 20GB is not allowed to output 1080p Blu-ray movies either because of the AACS DOT...


So wazzup microsoft? :)
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Kleegamefan said:
MS just announced 1080p "movie content" via their HD-DVD add-on
Actually, they didn't. Carefully worded press release keeps the HD-DVD addon and "movie content" separate. Movie content could mean downloaded vids.
 
Before this explodes, I've actually been meaning to ask this for a long time and I guess this is as good a place as any. What's the point of 1080p when the source is below 30fps?
 

kenta

Has no PEINS
As was pointed out in the other thread, the press release was careful not to specify 1080p with HD-DVD movies, it simply said "games and movies."
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Kleegamefan said:
The AACS Digital Only Token limits output resolution of HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies at 1080i and/or 720p over analog sources (like component video or VGA, for example)

MS just announced 1080p "movie content" via their HD-DVD add-on *and* with a dashboard upgrade so that must imply HDMI out on that device.....


And that still doesnt explain how "1080p movie content" will be output via a dashboard update?

I hope they are not going to have me fill up my 13GB HDD with HD movies on demand, are they?

PS3 20GB is not allowed to output 1080p Blu-ray movies either because of the AACS DOT...


So wazzup microsoft? :)

Because movie studios won't be enabling the token for a few years.
 
I want to know too. It's a mystery!! (cue ghost)

I was thinking that maybe they were able to emu the authentication on the scaler hardware? It was supposed to be really advanced and all that.
 

Jonnyram

Member
kaching said:
Actually, they didn't. Carefully worded press release keeps the HD-DVD addon and "movie content" separate. Movie content could mean downloaded vids.
The slides from the event said 1080p from HD-DVD.

115873017501.jpg


I don't know exactly what is going on, but since the video is going to the 360 via USB, before being output from the 360's analogue video socket, perhaps there is some chance that it is true? Maybe there is digital decoding inside the HD-DVD unit, before passing the video via USB?
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
supermackem said:
COuld be worded all hddvds are mastered with a 1080p transfer.


Yes, I suppose that is a possibility.....all modern 1080p displays have film cadence detecting de-interlacers and so you could just have 1080i deinerlaced at the display.....that would be a good solution, I guess :)

But again, no current X360s have digital video outputs so the only thing I can think of is they are expecting use to have an HD movie take up a majority of our HDD via XboxLive downloads...which sux...


That, or they are planning to release much larger HDDs soon.....god knows how much they'll cost :(
 

Zabka

Member
Wouldn't a movie output at 1080i60 come out looking the same as a one output at 1080p30 on a 1080p TV?

That is, as long as it's encoded in 1080p, which all HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies already are.
 

kenta

Has no PEINS
Jonnyram said:
I don't know exactly what is going on, but since the video is going to the 360 via USB, before being output from the 360's analogue video socket, perhaps there is some chance that it is true? Maybe there is digital decoding inside the HD-DVD unit, before passing the video via USB?
But the whole point of the DOT and ICT is so that full 1080p video doesn't pass over unencrypted wide-open analog lines like component. If Microsoft circumvented this, it would be pretty serious
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Son of Godzilla said:
Before this explodes, I've actually been meaning to ask this for a long time and I guess this is as good a place as any. What's the point of 1080p when the source is below 30fps?

film is 1080p/24fps
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Jonnyram said:
I don't know exactly what is going on, but since the video is going to the 360 via USB, before being output from the 360's analogue video socket, perhaps there is some chance that it is true? Maybe there is digital decoding inside the HD-DVD unit, before passing the video via USB?


Well, my guess is they will indeed have HDMI out on the add-on to circumvent DOT limitations on HD-DVDs....


Unless japanese HD-DVDs regs are diffrent from the AACS regs in the US....did MS say anything about the North American HD-DVD add-on?
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Zabka said:
Wouldn't a movie output at 1080i60 come out looking the same as a one output at 1080p30 on a 1080p TV?

That is, as long as it's encoded in 1080p, which all HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies already are.

Yes it would, but it also wouldn't be classified as 1080p output but 1080i output.....the Press Release (kinda)clearly states 1080p movies....
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Jonnyram said:
The slides from the event said 1080p from HD-DVD.
Yes, I'm sure the HD-DVD drive is capable of sending a 1080p signal to the 360, so any media that the HD-DVD player can read that happens to have 1080p content on it that isn't copy protected by AACS will output the full 1080p signal onto your display (assuming a 1080p display). But for commercial HD-DVD releases that are supposed to be protected by AACS, the 360 will have to abide by DOT and downsample.
 
Some facts (not MS FUD):

- Impossible to get 1080p over component with HD-DVD/BD material due to AACS
- ICT can further downgrade HD-DVD/BD signal over component in 2010/11

Very few if any TVs that accept 1080p over component exist or are planned for this reason.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Son of Godzilla said:
Yea, but I mean how's that better than 1080i60?


1080p/24 is better than 1080i60 because if you have 1080p/24 ability there is no chance of deinerlacing artifacts...


Get it? :)
 

Wunderchu

Member
timthegame said:
Interview by ****** with Shane Kim on 1080p on 360

Quote:
I had a chance to talk to Shane Kim, who recently named the corporate vice president of Microsoft Game Studios, about the day's announcements over in Tokyo.

If you missed the news check out the full press release on the jump, but in a nutshell Microsoft announced the Japan price and date for the HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360. More importantly, they announced that the fall software update for the console will allow the console to output game and movie content in 1080p resolution. That's right I said movies and games.

The interview was exactly 10 minutes long, so naturally I spent nine minutes trying to figure out just how a console with no HDMI out would gain 1080p output with a software update.

Kim was clear that the console could support true 1080p out.

"If it is running at 720p we will up-res it to 1080p, if it it's already 1080p then we can display it in 1080p,"
he said. " This is a great example of our console's ability and the great advantage of being a software company."

Kim said that while the console will soon support 1080p out, it will not have an HDMI out.

"We have the ability to output either through VGA or component. We have no HDMI announcement now," he said. "We do have the capability to deliver the software and, if needed, the hardware."

I pointed out that some movie studios have said they will use HDMI output as a form of copy protection and Kim acknowledged that if a studio uses that scheme then HDMI will indeed be required.

While Kim expects that some third-party game developers will create 1080p games, he said that 720p will likely remain the norm.


"We believe 720p is the sweet-spot for high definition," he said, adding that Microsoft Game Studio titles will, for now, continue to be created at 720p.

While the release of a low-cost HD-DVD player for the 360 could help make the console more competitive against Sony's upcoming PS3, Kim things the main development that could help jumpstart 360 sales in Japan are game titles.

Kim said that Microsoft plans to have 110 titles available for the 360 by the end of the year in Japan and 160 in North America.

"It's all going to be about the content and how customers value the content," he said.

Hit the jump for the official press release with details on new Live games, the Pac-Man World Championships, Xbox 360's HD-DVD player, some new titles and XNA support in Japan.



NOTES: Its upto the movie studios uptil 2011 to implement copy protection to allow only HDMI for 1080p movies. If movie studios allow 1080p over component , it will play at 1080p over component natively or it will be upscaled to 1080p if required by software or hardware



Another news...for monkey magic

http://translate.google.com/transla...firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N

Quote:
NEXT gene DVD ton of Use HDTV output until 2011

To outline OF the implementation regularization for the Advanced ACCESS content system (AACS), the copyright management scheme ton used by Blu ray Disc and High definition digitally Videodisc (hp DVD), has been announced. For discs pay in Japan and certain OTHER specified region, there wants NO restrictions imposed on high definition television (HDTV) signal output ton similar to terminals, looks for as “D” terminal. This is A temporary measure, more however, until 2010, and from 2011 outputs tons of “D” terminals wants severely restricted.

There is considerable argument of over more whether or emergency players wants include A function ton disable HDTV output ton of D3/D4 terminals (similarly restrict function), which DO emergency have effective CoPy protection technology, between the film making industry and the equipment manufacturers. As OF November 2005, the personal computers group (headed by firms like Intel Corp and Microsoft Corp, both OF the US) and the movie industry (including companies like Warner Bros Entertainment Inc. OF the US) were pressuring the equipment manufacturers ton incorporate similarly restrict on function. Many equipment manufacturers in Japan, where TVs without digitally terminals of acres common, have been fiercely resisting the proposal, and finally won A compromise ton keep the similar to limits function out OF Japan.

AACS Licensing Begins

Now that the issue has been resolved, licensing OF the AACS copyright management scheme for NEXT generation optical discs CAN finally begin (lake Table).

Japanese equipment manufacturers CAN relax for A while now that restrictions on output ton of “D” terminal have been avoided. It seems unlikely, more however, that it wants possible ton avoid implementing restrictions on output ton similar to terminals in 2011.

Equipment manufactured from January 1, 2011 wants unable ton of output HDTV video ton similar to terminals. It seems likely that equipment pay in both 2010 and 2011 wants require some type OF mechanism ton disable HDTV video output in 2011. And from January 1, 2014, video output ton similar to terminals wants forbidden entirely.

Hollywood's ultimatum
Many engineers express doubt that this item wants more ever implemented. Substantial resistance is expected from consumers and major retailers, and it could possibly destroy the entire NEXT towards optical disc market.

It is, in A scythe, Hollywood's ultimatum ton equipment manufacturers selling TVs without quietly high definition multimedia interface (HDMI) terminal. By indicating that similar to terminals wants eliminated into the future, the movie industry seems tons issuing A strong warning ton equipment manufacturers emergency ton sell TVs without HDMI terminal, and ton of users emergency ton buy them.

by Naoki Asakawa

(March 2006 Issue, Nikkei Electronics Asia)

Japanese TV manufacturers DONT NEED TO IMPLEMENT HDCP until 2011
[source: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4363483#post4363483 ]
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
monkeymagic said:
Some facts (not MS FUD):

- Impossible to get 1080i over component with HD-DVD/BD material due to AACS
- ICT can further downgrade HD-DVD/BD signal over component in 2010/11

Very few if any TVs that accept 1080p over component exist or are planned for this reason.


A few addendums to your facts...


You can indeed do 1080i(max) over component according to AACS Digital Only Token regulations...


AACS Image Content Token is diffrent from Digital Only Token...


You can have DOT enabled while ICT is disabled, which is the case now....


An enabled ICT flag would limit HD-DVD/Blu-ray output resolution to 1/4 HD res (960x540)


That is all :)
 

sangreal

Member
monkeymagic said:
Simply not addressed?

You mean they just forgot about 1080p?

XDF spin knows no bounds.

Don't expect the AACS agreement to change because MS says so :lol

chill the **** out, I'm not spinning anything. If you checked my ****ing post history you would see that I agree with you, but the AACS agreement is NOT final, and other component modes like 576i are specifically left out to be addressed in later revisions. It doesn't say shit about 1080p for digital output either. 1080p isn't mentioned at all
 

aaaaa0

Member
I posted this in the other thread, but I suppose it belongs here.

It is true that the AACS Interim License agreement does not mention 1080p component video as a valid analog output, so thereby it is excluded.

EXHIBIT A:

http://www.aacsla.com/support/AACS_Interim_Adopter_Agreement_060215.pdf

Page 96:

Subject to the sunset requirements set forth in Sections 1.7.1 and 1.7.3 of Part 2 of these Compliance Rules, a Licensed Product may pass Decrypted AACS Content for which the Digital Only Token was not set to these outputs provided that such Licensed Product:

(a) passes such content as a Constrained Image if the Ima ge Constraint Token is asserted; and

(b) supports Macrovision Analog Protection System (“APS”) and applies to the output Macrovision in accordance with the APS1 settings if APS1 is selected; and

(c) applies to the output CGMS-A/Copyright information, APS/APS trigger bits and where indicated, Redistribution Control Descriptor (“RCD”)/Redistribution Control Information (“RCI”) where specified below with a setting that corresponds to the setting of the CCI field and APSTB ;

in the case of (b) and (c) above as further set forth for each output in the details below.

AACS LA may amend certain of these obligations, or specify alternative means to comply, if AACS LA finds that the required technologies are not available on fair, reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms.

[...]

1080i YUV, YPbPr or Y,R-Y,B-Y component:

CGMS-A, APS/APS trigger bits and RCI:

(i) CGMS-A, APS trigger bits signaling on Lines 19 and 582 of 1080i according to JEITA EIAJ CPR 1204-2 complemented by bit assignment definition in IEC 61880:1998

AND in devices using chips with part numbers having a date of first commercial availability after October 1, 2007

(ii) CGMS-A, APS and RCI signaling on Lines 18 and 581 of 1080i for Type B according to CEA-805-B

Also check out the section on VGA output (page 92):

Computer Monitor Outputs:

VGA, SVGA (800X600 and greater), XGA (1024X768), SXGA, and UXGA or similar computer video outputs, that are widely implemented as of June 1, 2004.

Subject to the sunset requirements set forth in Sections 1.7.1 and 1.7.3 of Part 2 of these Compliance Rules, a Licensed Product that is incorporated into a computer product may pass Decrypted AACS Content for which the Digital Only Token was not set to these outputs. If the Image Constraint Token is set for such content, it must be passed as a Constrained Image.

Now note a few things:

1. This is the Interim AACS License Agreement, and is not expected to be finalized until Oct.

2. Movie content is encoded at 1080p24. This can be carried virtually losslessly on a 1080i60 signal and reconstructed by your television. So in any case you will be getting all 1080 lines of resolution available in the content on the disc, presuming the studio has not set the Digital Only Token, and has not set the Image Constraint Token, neither of which is scheduled to be in use until 2011 or so.

3. VGA allows the full image to be sent out in analog using any resolution a computer was capable of as of June 1, 2004, provided the Digital Only Token and Image Constraint Tokens are not set.

4. Hi-Def video content is typically shot at 720p60 or 1080i60 anyway, due to ATSC compliance, which makes 1080p60 irrelevent.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
sangreal said:
chill the **** out, I'm not spinning anything. If you checked my ****ing post history you would see that I agree with you, but the AACS agreement is NOT final, and other component modes like 576i are specifically left out to be addressed in later revisions. It doesn't say shit about 1080p for digital output either. 1080p isn't mentioned at all


Sangreal, no consumer HD-DVD or Blu-ray software released sofar can be output at 1080p via component video....

There is a reason for this....
 

sangreal

Member
Kleegamefan said:
A few addendums to your facts...


You can indeed do 1080i(max) over component according to AACS Digital Only Token regulations...)

the digital only token also does not currently exist

1.10 “Digital Only Token” shall mean the field or bits, as described in the
Specification, used to trigger the output of Decrypted AACS Content to only digital
outputs. Note to Interim Adopter: The Digital Only Token cannot be set during the
Interim Agreement
but Interim Adopter must build in ability to detect and enforce in
accordance with the Specifications. This capability will become relevant for
responding to Licensed Content Products issued under the applicable Final
Agreements, which may have the Digital Only Token set in accordance with the terms
of those agreements.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
aaaaa0 said:
3. VGA allows the full image to be sent out in analog using any resolution a computer was capable of as of June 1, 2004, provided the Digital Only Token and Image Constraint Tokens are not set.

Only problem is that sofar, Digital Only Token has been set in all North American HD-DVD and Blu-ray software IIRC...


Feel free to correct me, though :)
 

aaaaa0

Member
Kleegamefan said:
Only problem is that sofar, Digital Only Token has been set in all North American HD-DVD and Blu-ray software IIRC...

Doubt it.

The Digital Only Token forbids all analog output. That's why it's called the Digital Only Token.

The Image Constraint Token merely limits the output resolution.

If it were true that the Digital Only Token was set in all NA HD DVD and BD discs, you would be getting NO picture on any component video sets at all.
 
Someone should tell the guys over AVS that they're all doing something wrong since they're not getting 1080p over component out of their Toshiba and Samsung players.

Maybe give Peter Moore a call :D
 

sangreal

Member
monkeymagic said:
Someone should tell the guys over AVS that they're all doing something wrong since they're not getting 1080p over component out of their Toshiba and Samsung player.

Maybe give Peter Moore a call :D

uh, the Toshiba player doesn't output 1080p over anything
 

aaaaa0

Member
monkeymagic said:
Someone should tell the guys over AVS that they're all doing something wrong since they're not getting 1080p over component out of their Toshiba and Samsung player.

They are getting 1080p, it's just 1080p24 carried on 1080i60. :D
 

sangreal

Member
as for the samsung. from their manual:

In COMPONENT mode
• BD playback
Manufacturers of Blu-ray Discs may restrict access to
certain video outputs and resolutions. These constraints
are referred to as "Tokens". There are three different
levels of permission possible, they are:
- Token Disable : 1080p, 1080i, 720p are available.
- ICT Enable or DOT Enable : Component and all
analog outputs are disabled in this token.
HDMI must be connected to view a disc with this
token

Either you can output at 1080p over component, or you can't output over component at all.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
sangreal said:
the digital only token also does not currently exist


Ah-hah...there is the loophole, then.....thanks for the correction....


So we are good until Oct....and then after that......what?
 

Zaptruder

Banned
In response to Son of Godzilla's question on how 1080i@60FPS is different to 1080p@30FPS...

it's because it's not 30 FPS, it's 24 FPS.

In order to present 24FPS on a 60Hz set, sets do a 3-2 pull down... means that they render 3 interlaced frames of one progressive frame, then 2 interlaced frames of the next progressive frame.

On a smart device, the first interlaced field would be stored in memory, then combined with the second interlaced field to produce a full progressive image, then repeated 3 times.

However, a significant portion of even HDTVs can't do this correctly... IIRC the number is around 40% or some such. For those devices, I'd imagine you'd get interlace artifacts.

Otherwise, by and large, the concern is largely academic I'd imagine... just something that videophiles can yank their chains to.
 

J-Rzez

Member
monkeymagic said:
Very few if any TVs that accept 1080p over component exist or are planned for this reason.

And this right here is a major kick to the nuts... If TV's don't start appearing like this, MS just threw a bunch of B.S. out there for marketing reasons... (outside of maybe VGA type usage)... I hope MS gets thrown under the knife now... It seems to work in cycles... MS, then Sony, then Ninty, now MS is getting microscoped again...
 
I think you guys are forgetting what Shane from Microsoft said:


""We have the ability to output either through VGA or component. We have no HDMI announcement now," he said. "We do have the capability to deliver the software and, if needed, the hardware.""


if Microsoft has the capability to update its motherboard for futureproofing purposes. dont be surprised if they have a hardware component available soon to HDMI capabilities on Xbox 360 as an addon.
 

arne

Member
jarosh said:
my cat's breath smells like cat food


no kidding.


all I know is I'm flying klee out to help me buy my next tv and dvd, hd-dvd and/or blu-ray player when the time comes.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Son of Godzilla said:
Before this explodes, I've actually been meaning to ask this for a long time and I guess this is as good a place as any. What's the point of 1080p when the source is below 30fps?


There isn't any point. Its marketing fluff to make you think more = better.


HDDVDs (and blurays) are mastered on the disc at 1080p/24. The current HDDVD players output them at 1080i/60. A good display that is 1080p capable can apply inverse 3:2 pulldown to the 60i image and recreate *exactly* the original 1080p source frames.
 

Brimstone

my reputation is Shadowruined
Kleegamefan said:
The AACS Digital Only Token limits output resolution of HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies at 1080i and/or 720p over analog sources (like component video or VGA, for example)

MS just announced 1080p "movie content" via their HD-DVD add-on *and* with a dashboard upgrade so that must imply HDMI out on that device.....


And that still doesnt explain how "1080p movie content" will be output via a dashboard update?

I hope they are not going to have me fill up my 13GB HDD with HD movies on demand, are they?

PS3 20GB is not allowed to output 1080p Blu-ray movies either because of the AACS DOT...


So wazzup microsoft? :)

I can't tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p. They're the same resolution and depending on the display as a 1080p LCOS like Sony SXRD all the images look incredible.


If a person can tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p, they have god-like eyesight.

I can easily percieve the incredible superiority of 1080i over 720p on a Sony SXRD, but not 1080p over 1080i.


Anyway Microsoft is probably totally lieing.
 

Rhindle

Member
I'm going to take an informed guess here, and say that nobody who's posted in this thread so far knows what the **** they're talking about.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Rhindle said:
I'm going to take an informed guess here, and say that nobody who's posted in this thread so far knows what the **** they're talking about.

some of us do. But enough don't to create confusion in the thread.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Brimstone said:
I can't tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p. They're the same resolution and depending on the display as a 1080p LCOS like Sony SXRD all the images look incredible.


If a person can tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p, they have god-like eyesight.

I can easily percieve the incredible superiority of 1080i over 720p on a Sony SXRD, but not 1080p over 1080i.


Anyway Microsoft is probably totally lieing.

On still images, there are no differences.

But in scenes with a lot of panning and or fast motions, there's going to be a lot of banding with the 1080i source.

It doesn't require godlike eyesight to see the difference... just motion!
 
Brimstone said:
I can't tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p. They're the same resolution and depending on the display as a 1080p LCOS like Sony SXRD all the images look incredible.


If a person can tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p, they have god-like eyesight.

I can easily percieve the incredible superiority of 1080i over 720p on a Sony SXRD, but not 1080p over 1080i.

Until you get 1080p60 source material, you're not gonna see the difference.

Film is 24p, so with some massaging, the image sliced up and reconstituted into 60i without too great a deal of problem. HD cam stuff in 1080p is only 30fps, so that's easily made into 60i (just split a frame into 2 fields).

When eventually the pro HD camcorders do 1080p60, you'll easily see the difference between 1080i60 and 1080p60 for footage containing fast enough action.
 
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