Support NeoGAF

[thumb]

The vitriol directed toward Orth is understandable. Some of us rightfully see supporters of always-online DRM as being enemies to consumer rights.

I understand the anger. But some of the memes were intensely personal. Ideally, we fight ideas and not people.

 

[RionaaM]

CliffyB post-

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/47725362941/deal-with-it

And to think that I liked this guy, and thought he was smart...

Mr Bleszinski: like it or not, we will continue to complain about any and all anti-consumer practices the gaming industry throws at us. Deal with it.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Well I can certainly understand why the community responded in the way it did. Here we had someone who works for Microsoft who was responding to the community's concern with always online by telling them to "deal with it", among other comments. His attitude definitely didn't help him any.

I agree that some people over reacted, but it was always obvious to me that he was going to face some form of discipline from his company. You can't comment on sensitive topics like that while being so rude to your customers, it's just not acceptable.

I'm not happy he lost his job, but I'm not surprised either; he brought a lot of bad PR to MS and fed the rumour mill.

ya, i agree, which is why i keep referring to the whole debacle as a "damn shame", because losing his job just makes logical sense even if he didn't really deserve it on a moral level.

i doubt losing his job (if he didnt resign completely willingly) is the worst part though. i would think the worst thing about this is that he's now that "fucking adam orth". his reputation is seriously tarnished, hiring him anywhere in near future would be bad PR. if he has any topical views in the near future they'll just discarded. it sucks.

 

[SneakyStephan]

I consider him being fired a side victory for online etiquette.
The whole emergence of the phrase 'trolling' that anyone can use to hide behind when they say something stupid has been painful to watch.

This should make some people think twice.

 

[Exterminieren]

to each his own, but the thing about being a rich unemployed dude is that you dont have to kiss anyone's ass. i dont think hes taking sides, he's just giving his 2 cents.

Absolutely.

And I'm giving my 2 cents by saying that very few of his recent postings that I have seen have shown the remotest level of respect or acknowledgement of the consumer.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I understand the anger. But some of the memes were intensely personal. Ideally, we fight ideas and not people.

exactly, imagine just coming across it while your touring gaming sites or whatever as orth. it probably fucking sucks. oh well, i hope he's laughing it all off but i don't think most people could.

 

[ColonelColon]

I understand the anger. But some of the memes were intensely personal. Ideally, we fight ideas and not people.

He arrogantly antagonized gamers and made dumb attempts to belittle their concerns. The hostility started with Orth.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Absolutely.

And I'm giving my 2 cents by saying that very few of his recent postings that I have seen have shown the remotest level of respect or acknowledgement of the consumer.

his posts have an air of 'taking down to the gamer', i agree. i cant help but feel like working in the AAA videogame industry makes you crazy cynical toward the community though.

this article in particular convinces me of it in cliffs case:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/...-gears-of-war-is-more-personal-than-you-think

 

[Camp Lo]

I consider him being fired a side victory for online etiquette.
The whole emergence of the phrase 'trolling' that anyone can use to hide behind when they say something stupid has been painful to watch.

This should make some people think twice.

You'd hope people would learn but a good number won't and they too will lose their job... then blame the internet.

 

[Tangeroo]

people make mistakes.

he stupidly said some stuff that could be construed as next gen details and tried to defend a feature that everyone hates. for that:

he has a negative meme of himself circling the internet.
he has pages of forums filled with hateful remarks about him.
he may have lost his job as a result.
he's probably gotten a death threat or two knowing how the internet is.

not worth it. check out the confessions thread in the OT, everybody makes mistakes, but rarely do we have blow-back like Orth has to deal with.

Adam made a string of mistakes, the most critical of which has literally spelled out consequences for making (NDA). The blow back comes from how you choose to handle those mistakes. I don't think Adam handled his initial mistake very well and it lead to further mistakes (his responses to individual inquiries) which lead to further reaction.

Remember Michael Richards (Kramer from Seinfeld)? The guy was bombing his set and began to get heckled. He could have handled that situation in several ways but chose a very specific way which lead to his current career status. He made a mistake and he paid for it.

The public reaction (and it's not only at NeoGAF) is what it is. He had meme pics posted of him and people offered counter-arguments to his arguments for always-on. I don't consider that to be an over-reaction. It's a reaction.

 

[DryvBy]

I'm happy I came home today and can login to Gaf just to say ROFL at that Monster picture. Freakin' busted out laughing for a good while at work. So much goodness.

 

[Riddy]

I am in constant disbelief at all the people (big and small) who are coming out to defend this guy. Whether he's a nice guy or not is irrelevant; for one glimpse in time, this guy was nothing less of a condescending douchebag, on a public forum while representing a company. Good people have been fired for far less, what makes him the exception, the VICTIM?

Cliff's statements and opinions are shocking (not being able to play a console in the woods anymore is NOT progress), but what really takes the cake was the bit on how the Internet (just say neogaf) had a hand in this.

NO. If someone lit a match in a gas tank, we would not blame the gas for the ensuing explosion.

THE INTERNET (Use Responsibly)

 

[Phonomezer]

Adam made a string of mistakes, the most critical of which has literally spelled out consequences for making (NDA). The blow back comes from how you choose to handle those mistakes. I don't think Adam handled his initial mistake very well and it lead to further mistakes (his responses to individual inquiries) which lead to further reaction.

Remember Michael Richards (Kramer from Seinfeld)? The guy was bombing his set and began to get heckled. He could have handled that situation in several ways but chose a very specific way which lead to his current career status. He made a mistake and he paid for it.

The public reaction (and it's not only at NeoGAF) is what it is. He had meme pics posted of him and people offered counter-arguments to his arguments for always-on. I don't consider that to be an over-reaction. It's a reaction.

Someone stumbled on his tweets to another person and certain elements of GAF took it upon themselves to be the judge and executioner.

I am in constant disbelief at all the people (big and small) who are coming out to defend this guy. Whether he's a nice guy or not is irrelevant; for one glimpse in time, this guy was nothing less of a condescending douchebag, on a public forum while representing a company. Good people have been fired for far less, what makes him the exception, the VICTIM?

Cliff's statements and opinions are shocking (not being able to play a console in the woods anymore is NOT progress), but what really takes the cake was the bit on how the Internet (just say neogaf) had a hand in this.

NO. If someone lit a match in a gas tank, we would not blame the gas for the ensuing explosion.

THE INTERNET (Use Responsibly)

Oh no, HE WAS "RUDE". He apologised and people decided to ignore it.

 

[Sean]

It's curious that you replied with a graph that refutes nothing that I said. The iPad isn't an always online device, I can use 90% of the apps on it offline. It's obvious that services which require internet will need internet access, that's not what always online means though.

Despite the fact that most people spend most of their time using online functions, I'm sure they'd be very displeased if they suddenly couldn't play their games in the car or waiting for the train.

Not claiming the iPad is or should be considered an "always online" device, just pointing out the obvious, that a ton of apps and usage scenarios require an internet connection. That's all.

I do agree with you that there'd be a massive backlash if Apple (or any other company) forced always-online DRM at the OS level.

 

[SlowRevolution]

CliffyB's wife: sometimes I am on a trip and play a videogame for entertainment for some period of time

CliffyB: it would be cool if you were not allowed to do that

:lol

I see where Cliff's coming from with his stance on always online, and I think it's the future, but it's too soon, and I really don't think Microsoft is the right company to make such a big push for it. It kind of seems like he's thinking back to Steve Jobs and all the "you didn't know you wanted this until we announced it" moments he had with products like the iPad, or when he pretty much said "the iPad's not going to get Flash ever, deal with it", but I can't see Microsoft pulling that progressive attitude off, or being able to improve the internet infrastructure in the USA enough that the console will work the way they want it to. Even if they do end up improving things in the USA, this is still shitty for a ton of other areas. The military troops example that has come up is a great point, I hadn't thought of that but it just shows the problems always-online would have right now.

An always online Xbox kind of reminds me of those Google Chrome computers. I get what they're going for and eventually they'll have a place, but not yet.

 

[jediyoshi]

Whether he's a nice guy or not is irrelevant; for one glimpse in time, this guy was nothing less of a condescending douchebag, on a public forum while representing a company.

It was neither an official feed nor were they even strangers, they were already acquaintances riffing off each other. Everything else isn't very relevant.

 

[Tangeroo]

Someone stumbled on his tweets to another person and certain elements of GAF took it upon themselves to be the judge and executioner.

Seems a tad hyperbolic, wouldn't you say? NeoGAF is a forum for discussion. The majority of us disagree with his position and some also took offense to the tone of his arguments but at worst, we're only able to provide feedback in regards to how we feel about it. Some of that feedback was juvenile and cheeky but none of it can be blamed for his so-called "judgement" nor "execution".

 

[mullet2000]

It was neither an official feed nor were they even strangers, they were already acquaintances riffing off each other. Everything else isn't very relevant.

You represent the company you work for when you're using a public forum and tie yourself to them. He had in his twitter description that he worked for Microsoft, if I remember correctly.

Furthermore, if he wanted to riff with a friend there are much better places to do so than a public forum. He was later condescending to people other than his friend, as well. He also likely broke an NDA he signed by talking so openly about Durango. So saying "Everything else isn't very relevant" isn't really true at all. If he just wanted to make jokes with a friend he could have done that in a number of different ways. He messed up. It's a shame, but he did.

 

[Camp Lo]

Oh no, HE WAS "RUDE". He apologised and people decided to ignore it.

If only I'm sorry worked as well now as it did when I was a child disobeying my parents.

 

[DryvBy]

:lol

I see where Cliff's coming from with his stance on always online, and I think it's the future, but it's too soon, and I really don't think Microsoft is the right company to make such a big push for it. It kind of seems like he's thinking back to Steve Jobs and all the "you didn't know you wanted this until we announced it" moments he had with products like the iPad, but I can't see Microsoft pulling that off.

That's a horrible future. Kind of like a George Orwell future.

 

[PedroLumpy]

Damn, did gamers drown Cliff's dog or something? He just seems so driven to screw us all.

 

[Phonomezer]

Seems a tad hyperbolic, wouldn't you say? NeoGAF is a forum for discussion. The majority of us disagree with his position and some also took offense to the tone of his arguments but at worst, we're only able to provide feedback in regards to how we feel about it. Some of that feedback was juvenile and cheeky but none of it can be blamed for his so-called "judgement" nor "execution".

Some of it was juvenile and cheeky? MOST of the people in that thread were in UTTER HYSTERICS and quite possibly more over Microsoft than Orth himself. Don't pretend like there was some kind of indepth conversation running through the entirety of that thread; it was a mess and it was embarrassing.

 

[jediyoshi]

You represent the company you work for when you're using a public forum and tie yourself to them. He had in his twitter description that he worked for Microsoft, if I remember correctly.

Furthermore, if he wanted to riff with a friend there are much better places to do so than a public forum.

So the issue at hand is that people mistook casual riffing for an actual conversation. There's no onus on the people who took it out of context? The first part isn't relevant unless you stay on the illusion that the second part was an actual conversation that took place. You did see the part in all the articles were none of the actual context outside of their direct back and forth were taken into account, right?

 

[ColonelColon]

:lol

I see where Cliff's coming from with his stance on always online, and I think it's the future, but it's too soon, and I really don't think Microsoft is the right company to make such a big push for it. It kind of seems like he's thinking back to Steve Jobs and all the "you didn't know you wanted this until we announced it" moments he had with products like the iPad, or when he pretty much said "the iPad's not going to get Flash ever, deal with it", but I can't see Microsoft pulling that progressive attitude off, or being able to improve the internet infrastructure in the USA enough that the console will work the way they want it to. Even if they do end up improving things in the USA, this is still shitty for a ton of other areas. The military troops example that has come up is a great point, I hadn't thought of that but it just shows the problems always-online would have right now.

How is always-online DRM the future? For what reason? Why? What does anyone gain from this?

 

[mullet2000]

So the issue at hand is that people mistook casual riffing for an actual conversation. There's no onus on the people who took it out of context? The first part isn't relevant unless you stay on the illusion that the second part was an actual conversation that took place. You did see the part in all the articles were none of the actual context outside of their direct back and forth were taken into account, right?

I don't think the actual conversation was why what happened to him happened to him. It didn't help though.

What happened to him happened because he broke an NDA about Durango and and as a result caused a PR mess about the thing. No matter how you slice it, this is something that he did. Him being antagonizing, whether it was a joke or not, just made it spread faster. The fact remains that he still did what he did.

 

[Can Crusher]

It's weird that Cliffy B doesn't realize that the industry answers to the consumers. No consumers, no industry. Sorry.

Treat your consumers right, and you have their money. You ain't doing consumers a favor after all ain't that right Cliffy, it's a business and well businesses need money and therefore they need consumers.

I mean that's the whole theory behind nickle and dime, and f2p etc It exists because consumers are willing to support it.

So respect your consumers.

 

[orznge]

It's weird that Cliffy B doesn't realize that the industry answers to the consumers. No consumers, no industry. Sorry.

Treat your consumers right, and you have their money. You ain't doing consumers a favor after all ain't that right Cliffy, it's a business and well businesses need money and therefore they need consumers.

I mean that's the whole theory behind nickle and dime, and f2p etc It exists because consumers are willing to support it.

So respect your consumers.

Tweet your consumers right and you have their money.

 

[shinra-bansho]

If you work in a large corporation nowadays you have to agree to some code of conduct which almost certainly includes rules regarding social media like Twitter. It also almost very likely that there a number of infractions of said CoC happening daily without incident. The problem here is that Orth breaking the rules resulted in a huge media backlash. He responded directly to a hot topic regarding something that is currently protected by an NDA all while having his Microsoft position attached to his account. He fucked up. I am not happy the man lost his job but it's not shocking.

Exactly.

And while there are a few people who seem to be reveling in this misfortune, most people simply do not sympathize. Apathy is not schadenfraude. He made his bed, now he has to sleep in it.

Conversely, others appear to be either trying to distance themselves from "GAF" while ironically posting on it, or sycophantically trying to associate themselves with the "shame on you, GAF" circling wagons.

 

[jediyoshi]

I don't think the actual conversation was why what happened to him happened to him. It didn't help though.

What happened to him happened because he broke an NDA about Durango and and as a result caused a PR mess about the thing. No matter how you slice it, this is something that he did. Him being antagonizing, whether it was a joke or not, just made it spread faster. The fact remains that he still did what he did.

It's easily thee most quoted, looked at piece in every single article about the ordeal, everything else hinges on that. The fact that we haven't even needed to specifically cite what I've been talking about cements it. I don't think anyone's making the argument that how it snowballed past that during the news cycle didn't happen, because it's obviously out of his control at that point anyway. Everything that's been dissected and picked apart happened over the course of a few hours, people seem to be under the idea he was standing there stoking the fire as people gradually picked it up or something.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Some of it was juvenile and cheeky? MOST of the people in that thread were in UTTER HYSTERICS

Bullshit.

 

[strem]

He didnt check himself therefore he wrecked himself

 

[Abylim]

Devs are defending Orth for one reason: He supported always online. Devs love Always on, it means far less piracy, and probably less used games.

Everyone baffling at why CliffyB or Jaffe are rushing to defend someone Cliffy even said he doesnt know, this is why. Its in their best interest to paint Always on as an attractive thing for us to lap up.

 

[SlowRevolution]

How is always-online DRM the future? For what reason? Why? What does anyone gain from this?

I don't think the consumers gain anything from it with the way Microsoft seems to be approaching the issue, I just wouldn't be that surprised if things go down that way eventually. Microsoft (if the rumors are true) is overdoing it, but that doesn't mean some company won't come along at some point and get people excited about the potential of an always-online console. I don't think it would be embraced any time soon, though,

Having some clown like Orth shitting all over rural areas with bad connections with his "trolling" doesn't really help, those are the places Microsoft needs to be focused on.

 

[Eusis]

I don't think the consumers gain anything from it with the way Microsoft seems to be approaching the issue, I just wouldn't be that surprised if things go down that way eventually. Microsoft (if the rumors are true) is overdoing it, but that doesn't mean some company won't come along at some point and get people excited about the potential of an always-online console. I don't think it would be embraced any time soon, though,

It SOUNDS like it may just be on some cheap SKU of the 360, which is weird but so long as they keep the main system around or this one will work offline with Durango then it's fine.

And as my internet's been weird the last few days (clicking a link, takes forever to load, click AGAIN and it loads immediately), yeah, we are not ready for an always online future and everyone insisting so is an idiot. I suspect it'll be another decade or two, especially if you can have near-global wireless coverage and make it cheap enough for everything to have something like a 3G chip in it.

 

[Nokagi]

I'm buying Diablo 3 because of the always online feature!
-Said no one ever.

 

[AstroNut325]

Word for word I agree with CliffyB!

I NEVER thought I'd ever say that! Just not a fan of him!

 

[ambientmystic]

Devs are defending Orth for one reason: He supported always online. Devs love Always on, it means far less piracy, and probably less used games.

Everyone baffling at why CliffyB or Jaffe are rushing to defend someone Cliffy even said he doesnt know, this is why. Its in their best interest to paint Always on as an attractive thing for us to lap up.

This has more to do with used games than piracy. The First sales doctrine for physical goods has been a massive thorn in the side of the publishers and always online + digital future is the best way for them to sidestep that doctrine once and for all, guaranteeing massive profits and shutting down the 2nd hand and rental markets once and for all.

Piracy has little to do with it on the console space. Unlike the PC where it's just download, install and crack to play, it's a massive pain in the bum to physically JTAG your 360 to play the latest games. Not to mention the potential XBL tag ban/console ban from XBL. Ditto the PS3.

 

[Riddy]

Devs are defending Orth for one reason: He supported always online. Devs love Always on, it means far less piracy, and probably less used games.

Everyone baffling at why CliffyB or Jaffe are rushing to defend someone Cliffy even said he doesnt know, this is why. Its in their best interest to paint Always on as an attractive thing for us to lap up.

Nailed it

PS: You are representing your company when you write shit on twitter with the words "creative director at Microsoft", whether its official or not. Have people never had corporate jobs before?

I can understand now why devs are defending this dude, but customers who don't see how this is a terrible thing for both consumer service and company repertoire? I'm baffled.

 

[Yagharek]

Some of it was juvenile and cheeky? MOST of the people in that thread were in UTTER HYSTERICS and quite possibly more over Microsoft than Orth himself. Don't pretend like there was some kind of indepth conversation running through the entirety of that thread; it was a mess and it was embarrassing.

This is some revisionist history you're writing here, and you know it.

 

[DragonSworne]

Devs are defending Orth for one reason: He supported always online. Devs love Always on, it means far less piracy, and probably less used games.

Everyone baffling at why CliffyB or Jaffe are rushing to defend someone Cliffy even said he doesnt know, this is why. Its in their best interest to paint Always on as an attractive thing for us to lap up.

It's also the reason Orth even made the tweet in the first place. Orth is a developer so like other developers they'll defend always online.

 

[alr1ght]

Disappoints me that Jaffe agrees with that horrendous rant by Cliff. Usually I appreciate his insight.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

I'm buying Diablo 3 because of the always online feature!
-Said no one ever.

I bought Diablo 3 because of the gameplay. One of its big features that I LOVED was that it was so easy for my friends to join me, and for me to join their games. I didn't have to go back out to the menus, deal with lobbies, etc to play with each other. Since you were "always online" and in a server, that's what made this possible.

I would have bought the game either way, but I loved what being connected to the internet allowed.

Yes, error 37 sucked at first, but once they fixed that, the game was pretty damn fun (caveat: I'm not a huge Diablo fan so all of the issues with item loots I've read didn't really bother me, I still enjoyed the game).

 

[DragonSworne]

I bought Diablo 3 because of the gameplay. One of its big features that I LOVED was that it was so easy for my friends to join me, and for me to join their games. I didn't have to go back out to the menus, deal with lobbies, etc to play with each other. Since you were "always online" and in a server, that's what made this possible.

I would have bought the game either way, but I loved what being connected to the internet allowed.

Yes, error 37 sucked at first, but once they fixed that, the game was pretty damn fun (caveat: I'm not a huge Diablo fan so all of the issues with item loots I've read didn't really bother me, I still enjoyed the game).

What's not fun is not being able to play D3 on Tuesday mornings for 3-4 hours due to maintenance. F always online

 

[Silly.Mikey]

Because of that?

God forbid someone working there has an opinion. Great working environment.

 

[Kinyou]

Isn't it possible that he was fired for hinting at the always on rumors to be true?

Anyway, I don't get what the fuss his about. The guy made those tweets. If those tweets got him fired then it's only his own fault. People need to realize that Twitter is public ground.

 

[publicpwnerer]

So where are the developers that actually give a shit about consumers, not because they're giving lip service...but because they genuinely care?


No wonder gamers have developed an 'us Vs. them' siege mentality, considering this generation has been the worst...with publishers and developers alike shitting on everyone. Oh, that also goes for "journalists" too.


Someone earlier in this thread posted a link to almost 30-40+ news sites / blogs that covered the tweet story...yet somehow GAF is to blame. Baffling.

 

[RustyNails]

cliffb and jaffe, i thought we were bros, we fought the MAN together, bled together and held each other in the battlefields...i thought yous was one of us

 

[Petrae]

The blatant denial of personal responsibility is sad to see. Always someone else's fault, or something else's fault. Never the person who makes the bad judgment call.

Orth needed to be more cognizant of his environment before he decided to joke around via a public platform. He wasn't, people picked up on it, the situation exploded, and... that was it. His thoughts. His jokes. His tweets. Him pressing that SEND button.

We complain about lack of personal responsibility when it comes to people blaming video games instead of people who screw up, commit crimes, etc. Yet here, people are blaming every other thing than the person who screwed up.

Go figure.

 

[Kinyou]

So where are the developers that actually give a shit about consumers, not because they're giving lip service...but because they genuinely care?

<-

I think they're in Poland

 

[xxracerxx]

The blatant denial of personal responsibility is sad to see. Always someone else's fault, or something else's fault. Never the person who makes the bad judgment call.

Orth needed to be more cognizant of his environment before he decided to joke around via a public platform. He wasn't, people picked up on it, the situation exploded, and... that was it. His thoughts. His jokes. His tweets. Him pressing that SEND button.

We complain about lack of personal responsibility when it comes to people blaming video games instead of people who screw up, commit crimes, etc. Yet here, people are blaming every other thing than the person who screwed up.

Go figure.

Well said.