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[-PXG-]

i didnt read the whole, thing but i agree with what cliff appears to be saying. orth didnt do much of anything, he just put some bar talk on the internet and subsequently lost his job, it's a damn shame more than anything but i definitely feel for the guy.

"Bar talk" that is surely against any kind of non disclosure agreement, especially a big corporation like MS.

If such loose talk wasn't so risky, then why don't we see more of it? Devs would be talking all sorts of shit everywhere about their games, platforms and services.

Even worse, he was a jerk about it and kept going.

 

[idolminds]

Oh, Cliffy. The cabin in the woods scenario is ignoring that for a lot of people that isn't a vacation, that's their home. It's easy to dismiss complaints when you aren't the one still waiting for high speed internet.

 

[Eusis]

******.com/234789239/washed-up-out-of-touch-anti-consumer-apologist-hack-types-words-on-blog

I think I'm seeing why this site's banned.

Six million people would have seen they could play the game offline and just went "FUCK THAT SHIT!"

I literally cannot believe he typed that crap.

I think he's implying half of them would've just pirated. Which I'm sure grossly overestimates if not the piracy rate than at least how many would default to BUYING the game over pirating rather than just pirating some other game and playing that. At best it MIGHT have been true with something like SimCity, but I imagine similar to CoD most people who buy Diablo buy it with the intention to play online, so I can't see sales being significantly reduced if not raised instead.

 

[Elixist]

It made me pause for a second and go "Really?" I don't understand the logic behind thinking the game sold MORE because of it's DRM and awful launch.

same i wrote a decent post and then i couldnt post it cause thread was closed. Diablo 3 and Sim City, two games with big new sequels sold alot? you dont say. the shit drm had nothing to do with it. people were looking forward to new installments in these game for a long time.

 

[mullet2000]

Oh, Cliffy. The cabin in the woods scenario is ignoring that for a lot of people that isn't a vacation, that's their home. It's easy to dismiss complaints when you aren't the one still waiting for high speed internet.

But technology can't advance if we listen to those edge cases!

 

[-COOLIO-]

by "bar talk" to do mean that his initial tweets that were directed at no twitter user in particular were made in a bar, or what?

i mean it was like shit youd say on a forum or in a bar with friends, there's a ton of dumb shit that gets said on gaf but rarely does it result in memefication or unemployment. it sucks that he has to deal with that.

 

[Mifune]

Oh man, if the new rumors of NO always-online are true, apologists like Cliffy are gonna look silly.

 

[C4Lukins]

It made me pause for a second and go "Really?" I don't understand the logic behind thinking the game sold MORE because of it's DRM and awful launch.

It is just exploring the idea that if people were easily able to pirate Diablo 3, it only would have sold half as much. That this always online/ drm backlash is more overstated, and that drm actually can help a game sell more copies. It really is not that difficult a concept to understand. I do not think there is proof one way or the other, but that is the implication he is making.

 

[Izick]

Noooooo not the dumb memes and jokes! Quick, somebody save the jobs!

Hilarious.

 

[orznge]

too bad Cliffy didn't post that dumb shit on NeoGAF where you get banned for accusing people of piracy

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

it's 2013, and these days people are still getting turned down when applying for jobs because of the company finding out that they HAVE a facebook account. not behaving badly on there, just the fact that they have one. and no, im not making this up. i live in houston where there's a lot of high-paying jobs to those willing to conform to the corporate ideal. (although there are also a lot that aren't as strict- but this thread is about MS who's widely reported to be pretty strict)

then we have normal,runinthemill jobs where people can get in trouble for having photos on their social network profiles where they are holding a beer, or if they make a post about how shitty work was that day.

is anyone SERIOUSLY surprised when a dude goes out of his way to rant on twitter about how us filthy peasant consumers can just DEAL WITH IT? businesses these days expect you to keep your behavior on social networks in check, because they immediately consider you to be representing the company regardless of your position. when your real life name is out there and you're being overly aggressive and rude with customers about your policies and basically insult them for disliking those practices, you're just asking to get roasted by management. this is a really critical time for MS to carefully manage the consumer reaction to a hugely important product, and they can't afford for this kind of stuff to go down before it's even announced.

no GAFist should feel guilty. sorry.

EDIT: here's another way to look at it. a guy that wasn't in charge of speaking directly with consumers to explain/promote their products basically interfaced with consumers and pulled a Chappelle's Show "Pop Copy" on them. without permission, and with no guidance. if i was a networking tech for a computer company i wouldn't go sit down in the customer service department and bash callers for being too dumb to use our products.

 

[Zabka]

Seeing how some of these gaming personalites are acting just reinforces how much respect I have for people like Pachter and Jason Schreier. It takes a lot of self-assuredeness to stick around and discuss issues with an anonymous (but moderated) horde, instead of retreating to sycophants on tumblr and twitter.

 

[orznge]

Hilarious.

it really is hilarious to me and I'm reveling in all of it

 

[-COOLIO-]

"Bar talk" that is surely against any kind of non disclosure agreement, especially a big corporation like MS.

If such loose talk wasn't so risky, then why don't we see more of it? Devs would be talking all sorts of shit everywhere about their games, platforms and services.

Even worse, he was a jerk about it and kept going.

yeah, he was a jerk for 30 seconds of his life, not a massive deal. all im saying is that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, but like i said, it's shame things had to go this away but i understand why they did. it sucks though.

also, we should be happy anytime a dev breaks an NDA, it's good for us, we get to learn interesting things.

 

[metalslimer]

You know what, I'm completely indifferent this idiot was fired. The useless twits in the media getting all defiant is a sweet bonus. Any other industry where someone acted like a douch towards consumers would have done the same thing. So yes, get over it.

Edit: I should probably rephrase. Im not gleefully that he lost his source of income, but i feel no pity for him

 

[Izick]

it really is hilarious to me and I'm reveling in all of it

That's the power anonymity gives I suppose.

 

[i-Lo]

Pertaining CliffyB's response from the other thread:

Clearly then it seems the internet, GAF especially, overreacted to Adam's message of always online wrapped in condescension because of the new generation of gamers wouldn't know any better if one of they were deprived of something we today enjoy.

CliffyB it seems knows the issues better than the two primary points raised on the net:

• What will happen once the servers go down?
• Why should we be punished for losing connection?

And all because these issues have been relegated to a cabin visit.

I would like to add that I also find it uncivilized to revel in his departure.

As for this:

Even then, if they didn’t have anything to do with it at the end of the day, that they have the collective ego to think that they could do that

It doesn't matter if he is alluding to GAF or internet in general but it would be a damn shame if the voices of the many through the internet couldn't stall or defeat such anti-consumerist policies. Should people be apologetic about how SOPA/PIPA bill was stopped and question how they had the gall to challenge a corporate bill with such wide and deep implications?

The answer is NO.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

You can use an iPad offline but that eliminates like 95% of the use cases - most apps require the internet to function properly.

That's just not true. In fact, I'm using my iPad offline right now (posting from my phone LOL). Unless you mean 95% of iPad owners use them solely for internet/Facebook. I might be inclined to believe that

Apps without an offline mode get insta-uninstalled for similar reasons to why I don't buy always-on games.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Cliffy B continues his streak of anti-consumer, apologist crap.

Ugh.

to each his own, but the thing about being a rich unemployed dude is that you dont have to kiss anyone's ass. i dont think hes taking sides, he's just giving his 2 cents.

 

[Aquamarine]

yeah, he was a jerk for 30 seconds of his life, not a massive deal. all im saying is that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, but like i said, it's shame things had to go this away but i understand why they did. it sucks though.

also, we should be happy anytime a dev breaks an NDA, it's good for us, we get to learn interesting things.

We should never be happy when someone gets fired...ever. That's just selfish.


It most certainly DOES fit the crime when your employee begins to unravel your carefully-crafted official stance through a public platform.

Jokes about casual stuff (Kamiya) are one thing, joking about highly-sensitive NDA material is no laughing matter.

 

[ChosenPredator]

to each his own, but the thing about being a rich unemployed dude is that you dont have to kiss anyone's ass. i dont think hes taking sides, he's just giving his 2 cents.

Yeah I am glad he doesn't collapse under people opinion and just gives his own out even though the backlash here sometimes is extreme.

 

[-PXG-]

yeah, he was a jerk for 30 seconds of his life, not a massive deal. all im saying is that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, but like i said, it's shame things had to go this away but i understand why they did. it sucks though.

also, we should be happy anytime a dev breaks an NDA, it's good for us, we get to learn interesting things.

But he resigned. He wasn't fired. Now maybe he was given an ultimatum and resigning was the better of the two (or more) options that was given to him. Cliff is right about one thing though, we'll never know. Still, I don't give a shit. He fucked up. Not my fault he did what he did.

Yeah, normally, it's a great way to learn info. However, this situation is bad. We have all kinds of sycophants, apologists and ass kissers coming out of the wood work telling us we should just deal it with them being assholes and suck down whatever they tell us. Plus, we still don't know for sure if Durango requires internet or not. In the mean time, it's done nothing but generate terrible news for MS and discouraging any kind of excitement for their next system.

to each his own, but the thing about being a rich unemployed dude is that you dont have to kiss anyone's ass. i dont think hes taking sides, he's just giving his 2 cents.

Bull fucking shit.

He's already taken his side. Have you not seen his posts since he left Epic? Hell even way before that?

 

[Raptor]

CliffyB's wife: sometimes I am on a trip and play a videogame for entertainment for some period of time

CliffyB: it would be cool if you were not allowed to do that

Damn Cliff, what's wrong with you?

 

[-COOLIO-]

We should never be happy when someone gets fired...ever. That's just selfish.

wow, you interpreted what i said as me being happy that he was fired? amazing.

im saying we shouldnt care personally if he broke his NDA. that doesn't ruin us at all so it's a dumb thing for you or me to get angry about unless we work at microsoft.

 

[Foffy]

Posted this in the thread that was closed:

He's right that it's sick that people shcadenfreude it up in those always-on threads involving him. To be fair though, it's not just Neogaf. Most online communities, here included, consists of a lot of sadist dicks that like to jump on the hate bandwagon and start making dumb jokes, memes, etc.

Losing a job is a sad thing, but the guy didn't have anyone pulling him out of a hole to say what he did.

 

[alr1ght]

yeah, he was a jerk for 30 seconds of his life, not a massive deal. all im saying is that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, but like i said, it's shame things had to go this away but i understand why they did. it sucks though.

also, we should be happy anytime a dev breaks an NDA, it's good for us, we get to learn interesting things.

Causing a massive PR shitstorm is a pretty major fuckup. Not to mention him acting like an ass sure didn't help his case. Anyone with any sense could see him getting fired from a mile away.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

We should never be happy when someone gets fired...ever. That's just selfish.


It most certainly DOES fit the crime when your employee begins to unravel your carefully-crafted official stance through a public platform.

Jokes about casual stuff (Kamiya) are one thing, joking about highly-sensitive NDA material is no laughing matter.

this.

it sucks he lost his job, but for people to be shaking their finger in shame at us internets instead of at MS for being a bit extreme about their disciplinary rules is just silly. MS looked at what he said on there publicly, representing MS, and decided that the amount of damage he did to their business, future or otherwise, was equal or greater than his employment with them.

 

[Aquamarine]

wow, you interpreted what i said as me being happy that he was fired? amazing.

im saying we shouldnt care personally if he broke his NDA. that doesn't ruin us at all so it's a dumb thing for you or me to get angry about unless we work at microsoft.

Breaking an NDA publicly = Automatically fired. That's just a given.

You saying we should be happy he broke his NDA publicly = You saying we should be happy he got fired.....and that's selfish.

 

[-COOLIO-]

But he resigned. He wasn't fired. Now maybe he was given an ultimatum and resigning was the better of the two (or more) options that was given to him. Cliff is right about one thing though, we'll never know. Still, I don't give a shit. He fucked up. Not my fault he did what he did.

Yeah, normally, it's a great way to learn info. However, this situation is bad. We have all kinds of sycophants, apologists and ass kissers coming out of the wood work telling us we should just deal it with them being assholes and suck down whatever they tell us. Plus, we still don't know for sure if Durango requires internet or not. In the mean time, it's done nothing but generate terrible news for MS and discouraging any kind of excitement for their next system.

no ones telling you to accept people being assholes, but would you want the internet plastering the last dumb thing you said everywhere and people saying heinous shit about you? neither would i.

this isn't any one persons fault, it's just the dark side of the internet, it sucks.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

If I had a nickel for every e-mail of mine that was misinterpreted at my place of work, I would have zero cents. I love when people with no internal filter just assume it's impossible for *anyone* to not say stupid shit out loud.

Learn to be professional?

I don't wish for anyone to lose their job and I truly hope this blows over and this guy finds meaningful employment again soon. But it is very very easy to avoid doing what he did. The tweets were idiotic, and these are the consequences.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Breaking an NDA publicly = Automatically fired. That's just a given.

You saying we should be happy he broke his NDA publicly = You saying we should be happy he got fired.....and that's selfish.

i wrote a 2 line post, and you couldn't read the first line where i said " all im saying is that the punishment doesn't fit the crime"?

 

[Filth]

this sounds like politics, devs backing devs. im backing my fellow consumers.

 

[jetjevons]

“I’m so angry about this game treating me like a thief!” ::alt tabs over to bit torrent::

Ha ha ha. I know people like that.

/not accusing anyone here of anything.

 

[-PXG-]

no ones telling you to accept people being assholes, but would you want the internet plastering the last dumb thing you said everywhere and people saying heinous shit about you? neither would i.

this isn't any one persons fault, it's jsut the dark side of the internet, it sucks.

So people shouldn't react to things?

He knows damn well who he is and damn well what he said. He should have known better that his comments were inflammatory and a breach of his NDA. Being who he is and the knowing the topic at hand (Durango), and knowing how fast things can spread on the internet, the best course of action should have been to say nothing. Other devs manage to do it without issue.

 

[RoombaDance]

I felt bad for him until I saw the "Why would I want to live there?" tweet. What a tasteless thing to say.

would you want the internet plastering the last dumb thing you said everywhere

Easy solution. Don't post everything on twitter.

 

[orznge]

could you imagine the number of "deal with it" and "you deserved it" posts that you would get thrown at you if you made a thread in OT about losing your job over tweets or facebook posts; not here though, this is different, this is a videogame guy

 

[-COOLIO-]

So people shouldn't react to things?

He knows damn well who he is and damn well what he said. He should have known better that his comments were inflammatory and a breach of his NDA. Being who he is and the knowing the topic at hand (Durango), and knowing how fast things can spread on the internet, the best course of action should have been to say nothing. Other devs manage to do it without issue.

people make mistakes.

he stupidly said some stuff that could be construed as next gen details and tried to defend a feature that everyone hates. for that:

he has a negative meme of himself circling the internet.
he has pages of forums filled with hateful remarks about him.
he may have lost his job as a result.
he's probably gotten a death threat or two knowing how the internet is.

not worth it. check out the confessions thread in the OT, everybody makes mistakes, but rarely do we have blow-back like Orth has to deal with.

 

[Majanew]

My wife and I were discussing these issues this afternoon and she mentioned the example of “Hey what if I’m a gamer who wants to go to a cabin in the woods for a week and I don’t have online access there?” My response was “Unplugging entirely sometimes isn’t always a bad thing.

Yeah, but I can do that with the Xbox 360 and PS3. And guess what...when I get back home from vacation I still don't have to have either one connected to the internet to play a single-player game. Also, as already mentioned, some people live in a cabin without an internet connection and isn't a place they're vacationing at. What then? Move? Deal with it?

 

[WanderingWind]

That "Well behaved people rarely make history" is the most awkward part about that post. So what, Adam Orth is Huey Newton, now? He's the new guard for always-online DRM? Fuckouttahere...

Look, if you can't handle CliffyB at his worst, you don't deserve him at his best. Deal with it.

 

[Elixist]

CliffyB's wife: sometimes I am on a trip and play a videogame for entertainment for some period of time

CliffyB: it would be cool if you were not allowed to do that

.

 

[Wickerbasket]

people make mistakes.

he stupidly said some stuff that could be construed as next gen details and tried to defend a feature that everyone hates. for that:

he has a negative meme of himself circling the internet.
he has pages of forums filled with hateful remarks about him.
he may have lost his job as a result.
he's probably gotten a death threat or two knowing how the internet is.

not worth it. check out the confessions thread in the OT, everybody makes mistakes, but rarely do we have blow-back like Orth has to deal with.

I guess he should have remained anonymous rather than having his name and job title attached to the comments he was making.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Easy solution. Don't post everything on twitter.

your right, but he did, and it was dumb.

but there's another problem: people acting like assholes on the internet because they dont understand the concept of what mass hatred feels like.

now here's the solution to that problem: we act like human beings and dial our shit back when it gets out of hand.

 

[thumb]

Given that broadband tech will inevitably improve in quality and penetration, and that companies have multiple incentives to have online software, I agree with Cliff's argument that "always online" is the future.

The question is whether it should be the present. When is the right time? Not now, according to many gamers, including myself.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

"Well behaved people rarely make history" is a line that makes some sense in a vacuum, but basically none right here.

I mean, sometimes people have to offend other people to get things done, but what exactly could have Orth accomplished or gotten done with those comments?

 

[-COOLIO-]

I guess he should have remained anonymous rather than having his name and job title attached to the comments he was making.

he definitely should have but...

i guess what im saying is there's 2 types of stupid in this story:

- adam orths stupid comments

- the overreactions of "fuck him", "peice of shit" etc.

if you don't fall into either camp, then i applaud you, but the greater evil here is definitely the overreactions.

 

[ec0ec0]

If you need some conform come back to neogaf, we will treat you well and... deal with it...

 

[Rebel Leader]

he definitely should have but...

i guess what im saying is there's 2 types of stupid in this story:

- adam orths stupid comments

- the overreactions of "fuck him", "peice of shit" etc.

if you don't fall into either camp, then i applaud you, but the greater evil here is definitely the overreactions.

I didn't say anything of that nature( or I believe I see it that way) I just hated the idea of a "always online" console

 

[ColonelColon]

Posted this in the thread that was closed:

He's right that it's sick that people shcadenfreude it up in those always-on threads involving him. To be fair though, it's not just Neogaf. Most online communities, here included, consists of a lot of sadist dicks that like to jump on the hate bandwagon and start making dumb jokes, memes, etc.

The vitriol directed toward Orth is understandable. Some of us rightfully see supporters of always-online DRM as being enemies to consumer rights. Why would any of us be disappointed that he lost his job?

 

[Wickerbasket]

he definitely should have but...

i guess what im saying is there's 2 types of stupid in this story:

- adam orths stupid comments

- the overreactions of "fuck him", "peice of shit" etc.

if you don't fall into either camp, then i applaud you, but the greater evil here is definitely the overreactions.

Well I can certainly understand why the community responded in the way it did. Here we had someone who works for Microsoft who was responding to the community's concern with always online by telling them to "deal with it", among other comments. His attitude definitely didn't help him any.

I agree that some people over reacted, but it was always obvious to me that he was going to face some form of discipline from his company. You can't comment on sensitive topics like that while being so rude to your customers, it's just not acceptable.

I'm not happy he lost his job, but I'm not surprised either; he brought a lot of bad PR to MS and fed the rumour mill.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I didn't say anything of that nature( or I believe I see it that way) I just hated the idea of a "always online" console

then i applaud you and i dont think cliff b would have a problem with you either. maybe i skimmed too much on the cliff post but i think we're on the same page that disliking always online and protesting it is fine (even if he personally has no problem with it), but dog piling onto some dude who foolishly let some stupid slip is unfortunate.