Solid SOAP
Member
Does the same logic apply to supporting a candidate or president who has committed countless amounts of drone strikes or war crimes?
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"All Trump Voters Are Nazi Scum" (But Seriously Though...)
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Lord Frieza
Member
Yeah, this doesn't work. You're free to try yourself, but...temper your expectations
Lord Frieza
Member
This has already been covered in the thread several times, it's a false equivalency for a variety of reasons.
RPGCrazied
Member
Of course it doesn't work. Just look how his supporters still support him after his disaster of a 100 days with not a one campaign promise fulfilled.
What's funny is I spent the last eight years hearing that it was typical liberal condescension to assume that conservative voters were just stupid, and that they were perfectly intelligent and reasoned and just came to different conclusions.
I still think this is true! It's elitist and self-defeating to assume the people who disagree with you are just dumb and would agree with you if they were smart.
The problem is that the choice for Trump supporters is between ignorant and amoral. But I'm still doing my best to treat them with the respect I would like to be treated. That just has some unfortunate consequences.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
They know what they voted for. They just literally don't care, we've had 100 days of news and articles saying Trump hasn't able to do most things he promised he would and it really doesn't matter to his voters. What is a chart gonna do lol? Either it's gonna be "Fake news!!!" or "Well, it's because of Obama!" There's no point. The only thing that's left to do is get the people who didn't vote to actually vote and show up. Putting efforts into showing Trump supporters how shitty he is as a president seems like a waste of time at this point.
Millions of dead people are a lot easier to quantify than however much suffering a hundred years of slavery (in the country of America, as opposed to the British colony) caused. It's even harder to quantify the effect that segregation laws and racial hatred had. Not to mention we never put up slave owners on trial (as we probably should have), so the nation could learn of their crimes.
hey_monkey
Banned
When hasn't this been done, repeatedly? The man is currently ruling by decree, held a campaign rally, is at his fucking resort constantly, and is whining about how hard it all is, and yet many of the voters say they'd still vote for him, despite all the video mashups, the data, and more. It's easy to ignore that stuff when they just yell that it's fake news.
Was that candidate for president better or worse than the opposing candidate on those issues?
I'm going to keep harping on this until people get it. Obama's drone strike policy is in no way similar to Trump's racist policies. Even when Obama ran a second time he was running against a guy that seemed to have no problem with them. Romney wasn't out there saying he'd stop or take us out of our wars and intervention. Romney's foreign policy team was made up of the guys that got us into that mess in the first place. It was made up of war criminals, too.
Now, sure that doesn't completely absolve the American public, since both choices seem to be ok with that sort of thing it means we by and large don't care as much as we should. But this can't be stuck just on Obama voters in the same way Trump's racism can be stuck on him.
Trump's racism and racist policies were the crucial point of contention between the two candidates in this election. Hillary wasn't like Romney. She was out there saying no we should not do those things you're saying and you should not be talking like that. It became a choice and the minute you chose Trump over Hillary you made the choice on that issue. You either sided with Trump there or thought some other issue was more important. That's on you.
just gotta keep talking to them and assuage their economic anxiety
Slackbladder
Member
Scum, maybe. But not Nazi scum.
Truth of the matter is a lot of people didn't know what they were voting for because they were either a) ignorant as fuck or b) so indoctrinated by right wing bullshit they voted out of blind obedience. Some would have voted for him simply because he wasn't a politician and as all politicians are useless Trump could be a better option.
But there are others who knew exactly what they voted for. They are the scum.
However, I am feeling particularly misanthropic at the moment so don't take this literally.
Truth of the matter is a lot of people didn't know what they were voting for because they were either a) ignorant as fuck or b) so indoctrinated by right wing bullshit they voted out of blind obedience. Some would have voted for him simply because he wasn't a politician and as all politicians are useless Trump could be a better option.
But there are others who knew exactly what they voted for. They are the scum.
However, I am feeling particularly misanthropic at the moment so don't take this literally.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I wasn't making a moral judgement about Trump supporters in that post, just calling them out as what they are at best - ignorant.
I lived with these people. I was these people, growing up. They're too ignorant to look beyond themselves and see how their choices (in this case a vote) affects others. And when their blissful ignorance is shown to them they respond with either denial or apathy. This is when I will begin to make a moral judgement about someone. Being ignorant by itself is not evil. But when somebody is willfully ignorant despite contrary evidence being shown to them? Well, I still wouldn't use 'evil' per se, but the needle is definitely swaying further from somebody I see as 'good'.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
It was a bigoted action, regardless of motive
It was an irresponsible action
It was an action that has made the majority of people of color not trust their white counterparts. And that's the tip of the iceberg when it comes to fallout.
You can aim at the action, and not the people. But the action, one of the easiest votes going horribly wrong, says a lot about the US as people. As other notable votes say about other countries.
Talks about responsibility and accountability is... Honestly? The citizens of this country have had centuries to acknowledge both. And it takes us SO long to even make steps.
But we gotta.
It was an irresponsible action
It was an action that has made the majority of people of color not trust their white counterparts. And that's the tip of the iceberg when it comes to fallout.
You can aim at the action, and not the people. But the action, one of the easiest votes going horribly wrong, says a lot about the US as people. As other notable votes say about other countries.
Talks about responsibility and accountability is... Honestly? The citizens of this country have had centuries to acknowledge both. And it takes us SO long to even make steps.
But we gotta.
Yoshimitsu126
Member
You're right I was just bringing up the parties as context. But yes the conservatives at the time did enables Jim Crow laws. That's what I meant when I said the Republicans attempted to hold them accountable but they obviously failed in punishing the ideaology and become conservatives themselves after the Gilded Ages. But they succeeded in getting multiple Republican presidents in a row because they held the conservative party accountable at that time.
That's why the GOP has to be held accountable for promoting toxic conservatism but progressives should not let the ideaology survive like what happened in the Reconstruction Era.
There was a huge chart of all the thing he has said and done before the vote.
Guess
Fucking
What
Didn't work. Because Trump voters are either racist scum or so fucking dumb that it's an achievement.
Trump can double, triple, quadruple down and they still won't learn.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You know, we talked forever about the morals, ethics, and intelligence of people voting for Bush even though we all knew he fully lied about the WMDs in Iraq and all sorts of shit. He literally took us to war, killed thousands of Americans over his lie, delivered PTSD and injuries to thousands of others, destroyed our national security, and still got re-elected. Now he paints and people think he's cute. Clinton also lied under oath, and he's been out in public having a great time ever since.
Sometimes I have to remind myself that for people younger than me, Obama is their only real memory of a president. People voting for monumentally fucked up people who have said and done monumentally fucked up things isn't new.
Sometimes I have to remind myself that for people younger than me, Obama is their only real memory of a president. People voting for monumentally fucked up people who have said and done monumentally fucked up things isn't new.
Even if you forget the racism, I don't think truth, logic, or facts will be particularly persuasive to people who bought what Trump was selling.
They do probably like certain charts, though:
Lord Frieza
Member
Put this in a museum
Keep in mind, the victims of Nazis were white. Had Hitler and the Nazis committed the Holocaust against Africans or Arabs I think the world reaction would have been very different.
Also we have no idea how many slaves were killed after the Civil War ended rather than let them go free.
CountAntonius
Member
I disagree with you. I come from a religious Hispanic family who couldn't give a shit about Black or LGBT rights. I've challenged them often and many have come around.
My 70 year old relative voted in support of gay marriage. Something she would not have done years ago if it wasn't for me. Was she a terrible human being before? No she just lived in a vacuum where nobody challenged the views that were established by society in her youth.
This was the case with many of my family members on views that would never effect them. Sure I could have called them pieces of shit but in all honesty that would be purely to vent frustrations and not to in any way try to make the situation better for people.
Now I am doing the same thing with Trump voters. Exposing his lies and how he will continue hurting this country rather than just calling them racists. But this is just my approach and it doesn't always work but it has so I'll keep doing it.
Lord Frieza
Member
Really, you are going to say that is the same as the other stuff? Really?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's insane how many of you keep going to "both sides" in a discussion about how voters react and vote. The current presidency is the console wars of politics, I guess.
I'm suggesting that we all have much more in common about our habits than we might like to admit.
Lord Frieza
Member
I mean, yeah, you can keep doing it. It may work to some, especially in your circle, but it won't work to most of them. But you can go ahead, maybe you will prove me wrong. I'm done with it, burned too many times. I've learned my lesson.
Your family and friends are either bigots or ignorant. If you really believe it's the latter then I hope you're educating them on the consequences of their decisions for the most vulnerable communities in this country. See how they feel once you remove ignorance from the equation, at that point you're only really left with one option about how your grandmother feels about bigotry.
Yoshimitsu126
Member
Forget it. They're deflecting now or try to be coy with the devil's advocate.
ClosingADoor
Member
It is just very hard to convince people when they also have a ton of propaganda thrown that way through the (social) media. And then they dig in and actually vote against their own interest.
I don't know how to go about fixing the political mess in the US, but when at the next election you need to convince people to vote for your guy, going around telling all Trump voters they are nazi's is not going to do it. But constantly being nice and just letting people walk over you also isn't. Really depends on the battle at that moment I guess, and who you are talking to.
Like, your direct family member might be persuaded to vote differently. But the dude talking shit on Facebook probably isn't worth arguing with.
Lord Frieza
Member
You just compared lying about getting a BJ to lying about WMD, the murders of millions, and running a campaign of pure racism as some kind of validation of how bad previous Presidents were while condescendingly dismissing the viewpoints of others because they're younger than you, maybe.
I mean, shit dude, you're the one who keeps coming back to this both sides and comparisons, what the hell?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I'm talking about what voters do.
How are the Clinton example and the Bush post-2nd term example relevant to that?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Are we noticing yet that people, no matter who they are, will be stubborn in the face of new information or judgment? Good thread.
I think a lot of people in this topic are dancing around the inevitable conclusion that as a minority I reached years ago. It's a hard conclusion, but it is true:
1. Evil is a real thing
2. A significant percentage, if not close to half, of Americans are evil people.
3. You can negotiate with some evil people, but with many you can not.
It's hard to accept but it it is the truth.
1. Evil is a real thing
2. A significant percentage, if not close to half, of Americans are evil people.
3. You can negotiate with some evil people, but with many you can not.
It's hard to accept but it it is the truth.
CountAntonius
Member
Yeah it can be frustrating and there are some people who will never come around but I gotta try at least a few times before giving up on them. But I could understand your frustrations.
I don't understand the comparison: Bush's lies brought the world into a costly war and people have a problem with that, yet Clinton's lie over an affair most people are ok with, so people are wrong to think trump voters are racist?
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
is this some kind of whining about how political opinions generally align on NeoGAF?
Sorry about that, I would say in my defense that I was using probabilities to drive that, but I would be lying, its just a bad habit on my part.
The don't be reductive is exactly the point here, by saying that these people are all xenophobic, racists, misogynists and so on, or that they are acceptance of it is to be reductive of their views, there is a plethora of reasons to vote for someone, even if I don't agree with any of them.
I would also be quite surprised if there weren't xenophobes, racists, misogynists and homophones voting for Hillary, but those people probably decided there were more important things so they voted for Hillary based on those things they deemed more important.
Also not sure if every one of his major campaign platform points were linked to what you are saying, certainly not for a lot of people that voted, I mean sure trump might "want" to bring jobs back from china because he is a xenophobe and honestly a complete idiot (the jobs outsourced to china tend to be pretty awful low paid work), but doubt "fuck the Chinese" was what people were hearing when Trump talked about that.
Sure, but that is because you couldn't possibly educate a regime that wouldn't allow to even talk negatively about the regime, let alone create an education system that enlightened people about the horrors of it, I'm not saying lets change North Korea by debating them.
America is quite a bit better than Nazi Germany, so the extermination of millions of people is an unneeded step to get to a better education, I mean while homophobia is still unfortunately a major issue, it has been improving and it has improved by educating the population on the subject, instead of killing homophobes and name calling.
This isn't really a case of "absolving". I'm not saying people like my grandmother deserve a full pardon for their mistakes, unless they acknowledged them.
If she were to one day say that she understood that she made the wrong decision and regrets what she did? Fair enough, in my opinion.
If she still stands by it, and assuming that it's entirely out of ignorance and not because of any personal biases she may have on other people, what am I to do then? Lynch her? Never speak to her again? Wish that she burn in hell?
Would you go that far towards people you loved? Once again, I'm presenting this question towards the people who are not, on the surface, objectionably terrible pieces of shit. I'm talking about your best buddy or significant other or the guy who donated a kidney to save your life, the people who have always been there for you and have not done a single abhorrent thing to another individual.
Would you easily cut your ties with them just for one fuck-up of who they voted for?
Ampersands
Member
Not all Trump supporters are Nazis but they all have the potential to go down that route. Just like all moderate Republicans had the potential to be a Trump supporter.
I think it's only going to get worse from here.
I think it's only going to get worse from here.
That's not entirely true. Jewish people are liked fairly well today amongst all mainstream Americans, but back in the 1940's that wasn't the case. Indeed, many did not have a much better standing than African American's did, or Arabs do today. Anti-semitism was real in America back then, and kind of shocking to us from today's viewpoint.
Here's what Patton had to say about them:
Roosevelt famously banned or severely restricted Jewish immigrants from coming in, even when we had some inkling of the disgusting acts Germany was doing to them.
There's more examples, but it's pretty horrible how we treated Jewish people back in the day.
Lord Frieza
Member
I know...by comparing Presidents and their pasts.
I guess we're all just too young to understand you're incredible complex reasoning and logic, wise one lol. What new information are you even talking about? Do you really think the majority of people here aren't aware that previous Presidents had shady dealings, especially Bush. Most people here probably were in their college years, at least, when he was in office.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
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I'm kind of coming to the same conclusion that this thread is naively assuming the world is just and starting this discussion from that flawed point. Like there's a way to resolve the 50/50-ish divide in American politics I've seen my whole life in a way that voters would be persuaded to overwhelmingly pick the ethical choice when looking at ethical evidence.
I talked about who won re-election despite their actions, and how this is a common theme. People aren't as self-reflective or morally sound as you think. Check yourself for that.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
You know that Catholics are Christian, right
Lord Frieza
Member
...What thread are you even reading lol? Like, huh, you are like having a totally different conversation as the majority of people here.
I talked about who won re-election despite their actions, and how this is a common theme. People aren't as self-reflective or morally sound as you think. Check yourself for that.
Nah, man, I'm good. I know you're like the super old wise guy, and I'm just the youngster, but I can think for myself, and I don't know where you got anywhere that I was arguing anything about anyone being morally sound lol? Like, the actual hell are you even talking about at this point? It really feels like you're discussing something entirely off the wall to everyone else.
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I'm kind of coming to the same conclusion that this thread is naively assuming the world is just and starting this discussion from that flawed point. Like there's a way to resolve the 50/50-ish divide in American politics I've seen my whole life in a way that voters would be persuaded to overwhelmingly pick the ethical choice when looking at ethical evidence.
I talked about who won re-election despite their actions, and how this is a common theme. People aren't as self-reflective or morally sound as you think. Check yourself for that.
Then why did you bring up Clinton or Bush's paintings?
Just stop being coy and say what you really mean: "America is evil to the core, and you're all just arguing over which slightly different shade of malevolence to support."
Which is, in fact, a "both sides" argument, no matter how much you fervently deny it or make "console warz" references.
I am sure there were some really nice granny's who were nazis too.
You are either a moron (not a run of the mill one either, a real Trumper) or a shitty person if you voted for Trump.
Then again it is probably a lot easier to just assume these people are good at heart instead of the truth.
You are either a moron (not a run of the mill one either, a real Trumper) or a shitty person if you voted for Trump.
Then again it is probably a lot easier to just assume these people are good at heart instead of the truth.
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