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An incorherant rant about microtransactions on full priced titles. [Forza 5]

Izayoi

Banned
This is really fucked. The whole game is fucked.

- Half the on-disc cars of Forza 4.
- Half the on-disc tracks of Forza 4 (The Ring is paid DLC! WTF???)
- New season pass gives you 60 cars at 83 cents each, old season pass gave you 60 cars at 50 cents each.
- Shamelessly takes the car token system to a new level.

It's just fucked, Ricky.
 

NewGame

Banned
When it comes to DLC I vote with my wallet

...by not even buying the game in the first place! Pikmin 3 pulled a fast one on me though, I figured it'd be a finished game. I also avoided Fire Emblem: Awakening for the same reason. It seems even the ultra conventional Nintendo is not immune to money grubbing trends.
 

mclem

Member
This is all well and good, but what stops them from putting this in the game and then taking every boss' hit points and multiplying them by 2? Maybe they make that boss hit twice as hard. How would you ever know?

I don't think you need to 'know', as such, you simply need to appraise if the game as it stands feels well-balanced or not. If it's not a well-balanced game, then it's not a well-balanced game, and it should be criticised for that. Consider the product in its own right as it stands without microtransactions.
 

Ryudo

My opinion? USED.
I cant play games like COD because of the stupid microtransactions but Forza 5 has no excuse for them. Its bad enough they required you to use credits on DLC cars. To have them ship a game with so few tracks and cars in comparison to their last game is an indictment on them and I am firmly in the camp that places Forza as the greatest console car sim ever.
 

Reallink

Member
Reviews are mostly glowing and it will go on to be one of the best selling Xbone games for the foreseeable future. Better learn to enjoy it or find a new hobby cause there's much worse on the horizon. Spineless impatient gamers are spineless and impatient.
 

RM8

Member
I'm glad my favorite games have remained largely unaffected by this terrible trend. I won't buy a game with crap like this, and if I do (like I did with SFxT :/), then I'll never buy the DLC. This is just terrible and I refuse to support it.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
This is really fucked. The whole game is fucked.

- Half the on-disc cars of Forza 4.
- Half the on-disc tracks of Forza 4 (The Ring is paid DLC! WTF???)
- New season pass gives you 60 cars at 83 cents each, old season pass gave you 60 cars at 50 cents each.
- Shamelessly takes the car token system to a new level.

It's just fucked, Ricky.

8-9/10s across the board.
 

Billen

Banned
I honestly don't invest in full priced titles where they run microtransactions.


Microtransactions in free games, however, is a whole different story.
 
I don't have a problem with there being $50 of DLC available for the game at launch. What I have a problem with is having DLC available at launch that alters the way the game progresses.

If you have a game where the progress is unlocked via in-game currency, but also provide a means for players to purchase that currency with real money that sets a bad precedent. By providing that option, the team's design focus shifts from making an enjoyable progressive campaign to a more arduous one that motivates users to spend the extra buck to progress faster and it doesn't even require any skill to obtain it, just money.

I'm fine with games having experience bonuses or currency bonuses because even though that increases the percentage of points you receive it still requires you to play the game and complete the challenges, just with a slightly more alleviated income. But when you have a game selling ingame currency for real cash, no strings attached it starts leading a title to the slippery F2P path where the game designers go out of their way to make you enjoy the game to want to spend money on it, not to give you a rewarding career.

I have a Micro Machines-esque racing game on my iPad called Mini Motor HD where each vehicle costs $1500 ingame currency, whereas each race will net you somewhere around 300/400/500 depending on which race you do, but the game forces you to upgrade your vehicle along the way otherwise the NPCs simply outclass your vehicle after a while, and you are always getting close to the goal of your new vehicle purchase before having it taken away by the forceful upgrades you must do. It's treacherous game design that is mean to simply motivate users to purchase ingame items with real money rather than providing an enjoyable experience.

Even if you are someone who is very busy with life and consider these ingame currency purchases a way to save time and enjoy your game better, please consider that right now these things are optional and afterthoughts, but if they become popular enough they will become forced and games will be designed more strictly around it. So I ask of you, please do not support or endorse this type of monetizing schemes.
 

Conor 419

Banned
And so Microsoft's greed is predictably killing the last IP they have.

They haven't learned from their mistakes, no matter what 343i or any other subsidiary of that awful company may tell you.
 

Bedlam

Member
I will definitely not support any product that includes such microtransaction models.

Tbh, I already was so fed up with Forza 4's avalanche of DLC, pre-order shit, and more-expensive-editions that I skipped the game.
 

Camjo-Z

Member
When it comes to DLC I vote with my wallet

...by not even buying the game in the first place! Pikmin 3 pulled a fast one on me though, I figured it'd be a finished game. I also avoided Fire Emblem: Awakening for the same reason. It seems even the ultra conventional Nintendo is not immune to money grubbing trends.

Um... DLC isn't inherently bad, dude. I haven't played Awakening, but Pikmin 3's DLC is just extra Challenge mode maps that have no connection to the main game, and they even gave away two packs for free. That's about as un-money grubbing as it gets, and doesn't even come close to what's being described in Forza.
 

Zinthar

Member
The subject line of this thread is inaccurate -- the OP's rant was quite coherent.

IMO, Forza has been the worst micro-transaction and premium DLC offender among any of the first-party games put out by the big three platform holders. I think Microsoft realizes that Forza has a hardcore and loyal fanbase, even compared to its simcade competitor Gran Turismo (which sells much more than Forza, but also seems to have a larger casual appeal for some reason). Thus, Forza is a perfect candidate to extract money from consumers with premium DLC and micro transactions.

I'd bet a decent amount of money that Forza 4's season pass had the best attach rate per game copy sold of any game that's offered a season pass (unless you count BF3 premium, which was offered for sale prices repeatedly).

After the way that Microsoft screwed over purchasers of the Fanatec CSR (Forza 4 branded) by preventing compatibility of 360 wheels, nothing they do with this series surprises me. I feel bad for Turn 10, as I'm sure Dan Greenwalt and crew would prefer that any wheel be compatible. I also wouldn't be surprised if the micro-transactions and meager rewards per race were ordered upon Turn 10 by Phil Spencer.

DLC isn't inherently evil by any stretch, but Forza offers among the worst bang for your buck when it comes to DLC in the entire industry. And I say that as a fan of the series who purchased the F4 season pass (so I guess I'm part of the problem).
 

WarMacheen

Member
I have Forza 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Won't be getting 5 because of the shitty tokens from 4, that have been turned up a notch further.


Thanks Turn 10/Microsoft, hopefully your fucking greed will be your downfall.

This goes for any full priced game that cuts features, yet still has the audacity to charge microtransactions for content.


Dan, I am disappoint
 

Shinta

Banned
I hate it when microtransactions are advertised in-game.
iirGcaIoG6iPH.gif

It says put the system in sleep mode. You gain points by carrying the system in sleep mode with the game on. You can the spend those on using an extremely powerful super move.

Am I missing something? Doesn't seem like a micro-transaction to me. Seems like something to help casual players, and to encourage people to come back to RPGs they leave for a bit.

Animal Crossing has you spend player coins that you gain on the 3DS by carrying it around with you while you walk.
 

Okamid3n

Member
When it comes to DLC I vote with my wallet

...by not even buying the game in the first place! Pikmin 3 pulled a fast one on me though, I figured it'd be a finished game. I also avoided Fire Emblem: Awakening for the same reason. It seems even the ultra conventional Nintendo is not immune to money grubbing trends.

Fire Emblem: Awakening has quite a bit more content than past FE games. The DLC, on the other hand, is for the most part low-quality fanservice that has no place in the actual game. FE:A is very much a finished game, whereas the DLC is the thing that feels unfinished.

You lose nothing by not getting the DLC.
 
Purposefully make your game worse so you can charge more money.

When the best thing you can say about something is it's only 'a small inconvenience', it needs to go.
 
This is really fucked. The whole game is fucked.

- Half the on-disc cars of Forza 4.
- Half the on-disc tracks of Forza 4 (The Ring is paid DLC! WTF???)
- New season pass gives you 60 cars at 83 cents each, old season pass gave you 60 cars at 50 cents each.
- Shamelessly takes the car token system to a new level.

It's just fucked, Ricky.

Welp, I guess I'll be skipping this one...
 
It says put the system in sleep mode. You gain points by carrying the system in sleep mode with the game on. You can the spend those on using an extremely powerful super move.

Am I missing something? Doesn't seem like a micro-transaction to me. Seems like something to help casual players, and to encourage people to come back to RPGs they leave for a bit.

Animal Crossing has you spend player coins that you gain on the 3DS by carrying it around with you while you walk.

It says "There's a way to get SP without waiting!?", that way is to buy them through a microtransaction.
 
DLC isn't inherently evil by any stretch, but Forza offers among the worst bang for your buck when it comes to DLC in the entire industry. And I say that as a fan of the series who purchased the F4 season pass (so I guess I'm part of the problem).
Big fan of Forza and DLC but I couldn't agree more. Tokens themselves have to be the most shameless bit of DLC I've seen since horse armor. Paying real money to get in-game currency to buy a car in-game that you've already bought with real cash via DLC. Fucking obscene.
 

Damaniel

Banned
It says put the system in sleep mode. You gain points by carrying the system in sleep mode with the game on. You can the spend those on using an extremely powerful super move.

Am I missing something? Doesn't seem like a micro-transaction to me. Seems like something to help casual players, and to encourage people to come back to RPGs they leave for a bit.

Animal Crossing has you spend player coins that you gain on the 3DS by carrying it around with you while you walk.

I'm assuming it's the "There's a way to get SP without waiting!?" message. Putting the system in sleep mode involves waiting. Buying a SP booster (or an outright SP purchase microtransaction) doesn't.
 

markot

Banned
The awfulness is all encompassing...

What a terrible turdular direction this so called generation will take us to.
 
It says put the system in sleep mode. You gain points by carrying the system in sleep mode with the game on. You can the spend those on using an extremely powerful super move.

Am I missing something? Doesn't seem like a micro-transaction to me. Seems like something to help casual players, and to encourage people to come back to RPGs they leave for a bit.

Animal Crossing has you spend player coins that you gain on the 3DS by carrying it around with you while you walk.

6xgjQ1y.png
 
NBA2K has this farce aswell. All was grand until 2K12 when they introduced it. i mean. Expecting you to fork out for a bandage for your knee?? Like...WTF? Granted gaming companies may be feeling the pinch as we all do, but exploiting their fanbase of hard earned cash and ruining the enjoyment of a game in the process is a double no-no.

Theyd garner more respect by fessing up and admitting theyre strapped for cash for future dev of a title and starting up a kickstarter page for support...id buy into that no questions asked...

Full disclosure: despite my rant, Ill still be revelling in NBA2K once the PS4 lands over here
 

tafer

Member
This is really fucked. The whole game is fucked.

- Half the on-disc cars of Forza 4.
- Half the on-disc tracks of Forza 4 (The Ring is paid DLC! WTF???)
- New season pass gives you 60 cars at 83 cents each, old season pass gave you 60 cars at 50 cents each.
- Shamelessly takes the car token system to a new level.

It's just fucked, Ricky.

And no reviewer makes mention of this bullshit... oh well, at this point it's not a surprise. It's just another moment of "lol gaming press".

But seriously, the path that gaming is following doesn't seem to have a happy ending.
 

Biker19

Banned
Completely agree. People would lose their god damn minds if this was forced into other popular forms of entertainment. Awesome, just got a new Bluray, pop that shit in, hit play, intro titles start to roll... ok these intro credits are super boring and way too long, I've also watched the first 10 minutes on youtube last week, lets fast forward. Wait what? Pay 5$ to unlock fast forward? I have to watch the movie in its entirety twice before unlocking fast forward? Well I guess it is "convenient" for me to buy fast forward now since I don't have the time.

Nothing like rewarding exploitative practices, not only once with your initial purchase, but again with a bunch of micro transactions.

I definitely agree. Though from what I heard, the pre-order sales of Forza 5 are pretty poor. Maybe if this title flops, or that people don't buy Microtransactions, DLC, etc., all these practices from publishers would cease.

Voting with your wallet is the only way. Make these companies become the next Capcom in profitability.
 

tafer

Member
I definitely agree. Though from what I heard, the pre-order sales of Forza 5 are pretty poor. Maybe if this title flops, or that people don't buy Microtransactions, DLC, etc., all these practices from publishers would cease.

Voting with your wallet is the only way.

In general I would agree with this, but what if the people in charge is so damn dense that instead of, you know, listen to the customers they will start blaming something else and increase their anti consumer measures until... well, you can imagine.

In other words (Pretty good read):
Okay, so, gotta get this off my chest: I am a game developer; I've worked in the past at Sony Bend Studios, and I currently work for a small developer known as Play Habit; in addition, I also do my own software and game development on the side (Play Habit knows about this and is happy for me. :)

I've got quite a few friends who are professional game developers, and I have some friends who are professional musicians. Piracy is a hot topic for both types of folks. But when I ask "What do you think about piracy?" to the two groups, I get distinctly different answers.

Most musicians I've talked to about this WANT you to pirate their music. They would MUCH, MUCH rather have someone listening to their music than not, because they understand that product familiarity is one of the primary marketing tools. Yes, they would rather people buy their music, as that's how they make money, but if it's between not hearing their music and hearing their music, they want you to hear it!

In my experience in the professional games industry, this is rarely the case. I've seen so many folks who decry pirates, and think that one of the highest priorities is making sure that folks that DIDN'T buy the game DON'T get to play. They believe that there's a direct and powerful correlation to a pirated unit and loss of a sale, and they believe that if you effectively deny/delay access to the game, those would-be pirates will buy it.

I've been in the games industry for quite a while now, and I kept abreast of game industry news far before I entered. From what I can tell, the reason that piracy became such a hot-button issue is because it was such an effective way for a developer to save face. Picture this scenario: you are in a board room, and one of the members asks the following question:

So, why did GameX not sell according to our projections?

As a developer, you have a few options for how to answer this. Let's say that GameX was a game that could've been great. The timeline and budget weren't planned out properly, or promises were made that were untenable, and there was no room for negotiating more time or money. The main design of the game had to be changed because one of the controlling board members watched his son play another game and he wanted more of that design present. Half the content in the game had to be cut to allow the remaining levels to get the attention they needed. A change in technical requirements on PlatformX cost another month of work; time that was intended to be used for bug fixing. In the last few months the lead programmer jumped ship because he found another company who would pay him more, and wasn't scrambling to complete this project Charlie Foxtrot. And the marketing budget was tied to a related movie release that never saw the light of day.

What do you do? You could pin the blame on board member who thought he was a designer, but this man pays your salary. You could blame the project organization/producer, but he was just doing the best he could with what was given to him. You could blame the platform, you could blame the programmer. You could blame the marketing (Or lack thereof).

But the night before this meeting, you were on PirateBay, downloading the latest episode of that hot new TV show your friend told you about, and you noticed that GameX is being torrented by 5000 people.

So you figure: "Hey, if I just say that it's because we got pirated, that hurts no one, and solves the problem, no fuss no muss! I can clearly see we've lost at LEAST 5000 sales from these figures."

And so this happens, for GameX, GameY, GameY X2, etc. Eventually, the first question in every board meeting is as follows:

So, what are you guys doing to prevent piracy?

This is how we end up with companies spending millions on anti-piracy measures that are both ineffective and potentially hazardous to end-users.

Indie devs go either way on this in my experience, though most of them do understand that the piracy problem is MUCH less of a problem than people make it out to be. At the very least, in the indie community, they understand that any DRM that has a chance to affect an end-user should be avoided at ALL COSTS.

From here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Gaming4Game..._piracy_except_its_okay_but_sometimes/cdic8fo
 

epmode

Member
I hate it as much as anybody but until the average gamer stops justifying this practice by buying the DLC it's going to keep happening.

The average gamer isn't the one that ruins it for everyone. That's usually on the whales. And then the whales move on to the next money sink and leave behind a broken game.
 
Just stick it to them by buying the game used, refusing to purchase tokens, and complaining via social media. It's all we can really do but that's pretty shitty.
I agree with 2 and 3 but you shouldn't buy the game used. Either show them that you won't buy the game at all or show them that even if you do, you won't pay for microtransactions.

I'm not opposed to buying used in general but if you're trying to make a stand, buying used only shows them that they need to truly kill used games.
 

conweller

Neo Member
I think the reason why most reviewers don't mention this, or don't make a big deal out of it is because game reviewers are more and more avoiding discussing the cost of gaming in general. And I don't think it's entirely because most of the well known ones are getting their consoles and games for free, I think the cost of gaming is just so high and the audience so diverse that it's not practical to say what is or isn't worth the money. Each person has to decide how much their time and money is with. But the simple fact of the matter is that the general consumer belief is that $60 buys you the full experience as the developers intended it. You wouldn't pay an extra $5 at the movie theater to have all the actors in the movie (Catwoman DLC anyone?)

What they should be able to say is 'Forza 4 gave you X amount of content for $60 dollars. Forza 5 gives you Y amount of content (I think racing games are one of the few unique genres that it is acceptable to quantify how much is in a game.)

If a company is giving us less or worse for the same amount of money we should be upset and protest in whatever way is appropriate. If a company gives us the same amount as the previous game they don't deserve praise, they may deserve our business. They have accomplished what should be considered the bare minimum. If they increase the quality and quantity of content then we should support them.
 

Odrion

Banned
Why does it seem that every Xbone game has some crooked PAYMIUM system in place while it's completely absent on the PS4?
 

MilkBeard

Member
I feel a new Jimquisition coming on. Seems like a lot of the big ticket X1 games have microtransactions. If I were getting an X1 I'd be pretty disappointed about that.
 
This is really fucked. The whole game is fucked.

- Half the on-disc cars of Forza 4.
- Half the on-disc tracks of Forza 4 (The Ring is paid DLC! WTF???)
- New season pass gives you 60 cars at 83 cents each, old season pass gave you 60 cars at 50 cents each.
- Shamelessly takes the car token system to a new level.

It's just fucked, Ricky.

You forgot the expansion pass and the super pass (which includes both season passes)
 

Seanspeed

Banned
This is really fucked. The whole game is fucked.

- Half the on-disc cars of Forza 4.
- Half the on-disc tracks of Forza 4 (The Ring is paid DLC! WTF???)
- New season pass gives you 60 cars at 83 cents each, old season pass gave you 60 cars at 50 cents each.
- Shamelessly takes the car token system to a new level.

It's just fucked, Ricky.
Ring has not been confirmed to be paid DLC. One mention of it says it will be free. We'll see.

Car token system is not taken to a whole new level. If all the cars are more expensive or if you make far less money now, sure, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.
 

MilkBeard

Member
Bravely Default has micro transactions......fuck

It's in the newer updated version, which is the one we will be getting. However, it is entirely optional in that game, not like Forza 5 or other games where main content is sitting behind a paywall. Still, I don't like this trend even if it's only doing it in a minimal way. Tales of Xillia and SMT IV have packs where you can buy money and easier grinding with DLC as well. Not cool in my eyes.
 
Cross posting this from the Ryse thread

The problem I find with microtransactions is that the most lucrative section of the market to aim for is not the average user but the whales

In the mobile market (we had a thread on this) such a crazy high percentage of the revenue and profit from FTP games come not from the average player but the small percentage of whales that buy all the junk

In essence voting with your wallet doesn't work so long as a small percentage of people are willing to shell out the cash

In essence it is possible general gameplay for future games could be tailored in the future much like many mobile games are to try and get at the money of that small percentage of whales and be entirely indifferent to the desires and needs of the average gamer because frankly the publishers and in return the developers don't give a damn about the average gamer.

So from an on high level microtransactions may be one of the few things where simply ignoring it is not the correct move to try and eliminate it from future game design because the money comes from a small segment and not the majority and thus the majority pushing back may not be effective

Also it appears that the whales account for 1% or less of gamers out there and the actions of behaviors of this 1% could account for the future game design of us all
 
What is going on with Microsoft? They are so anti-consumer now...from their initial messaging about the Xbone and now this 'practice' with their first party game Forza. This is not the same MS that launched the 360 back in 2005. This is something else entirely.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
I don't have a problem with there being $50 of DLC available for the game at launch. What I have a problem with is having DLC available at launch that alters the way the game progresses.

If you have a game where the progress is unlocked via in-game currency, but also provide a means for players to purchase that currency with real money that sets a bad precedent. By providing that option, the team's design focus shifts from making an enjoyable progressive campaign to a more arduous one that motivates users to spend the extra buck to progress faster and it doesn't even require any skill to obtain it, just money.
There's no need to buy car tokens to progress in Forza. You should be able to afford cars in the classes you need just fine with regular play. That's all you need to 'progress'. People who want specific cars that they don't currently have funds for can buy car tokens if they wish. Or people who don't wish to play the game to earn anything and just want all the cool stuff right off the bat.

There is little-to-no in-game advantage in doing this, though. Everything is class-based. You wont be racing a Ferrari against a bunch of Nissan Altima's. If you buy a Ferrari, you will have to race it against similarly paced cars.

I don't believe it. I believe it will be sold as one of the expansion packs.
Yea, you're probably right. Just sayin - we don't know anything yet. Lots of people spreading a lot of bullshit in here.
 

KDR_11k

Member
Don't blame the publishers, Blame the gamers who keep buying this rubbish

I blame both. Microtransactions alter the incentive system for a developer, it's no longer "make the best game", it's "make the game that sells the most MTs without being so bad that it makes less money than before". Now the goal is no longer greatness, it's being good enough that people will pay the money to unlock the greatness.
 

Into

Member
Its not just Microsoft Studios doing this, we have to be fair and look at EA and 2k and others who are also now doing this. 2K has a option to buy "VC" currency to improve your team or your MyPlayer stats. The speed of which you earn this is slow enough that it requires you to dog it out for a long time unless you pay up. EA does it in several ways, i believe all the way back to Fight Night Champion where they made the training sessions so shitty and annoying (on purpose of course) to force players into paying for micro transactions just to have a fighter who could fight somewhat decently.

Its a damn shame, but its where the industry seems to be going. You can almost imagine a company like Capcom allowing you to buy save points and ammo in a RE7 game for real money.

I like Forza, its a solid series, but this kind of practice just puts me off the game. If it was online only then i would be ok with since i dont dabble much with online except the auction house. But once it affects the single player mode, i am out
 
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