charlequin
Banned
Himuro said:
My claim is that a game whose script was left unfinished and then had a final version thrown together by random schmoes they found in the basement is still better-written than FF8, yes.
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Analysis: What really happened in Final Fantasy VIII (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter Rahul
- Start date
My claim is that a game whose script was left unfinished and then had a final version thrown together by random schmoes they found in the basement is still better-written than FF8, yes.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Ellome knew she couldn't change the past with her power before she started sending Squall etc back in time in an attempt to get Laguna to a certain point in time. Squall wasn't really Ultimecia's goal though. Time compression was. She left the anti SeeD stuff to Seifer by and large.MechaX said:
It could've been that she was trying to finish things off personally when she was waiting for Squall in the garden.
She did order Fisherman's Horizon destroyed.
charlequin said:
The Squall's Dead theory provides insight into Squall's character, resolves the weirdness that has been happening since the start of disc 2, and the informational resolution to what happened on disc 1 is like the 3rd rabbi's story in A Serious Man: who cares?
I can play this game too!
Zoe
Member
MechaX said:
I can't watch this now, but I think it might be in clip 9 here:
http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/16043646
Edit: actually, no, damn. This guy only goes up to right before the assassination mission.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
She's guessing. Easy to fixate on the guy with the impractical sword that keeps stabbing her tho.ElFly said:
By Ultimecia's time, the records seem to have been lost. (Or they were just kept solely by SeeD) Ultimecia seems to be basing her decisions off a vague legend. (Which seems closest to that show Laguna was filming.)Himuro said:
I just checked out the website and the theory as you presented it, skipped some of the earlier posts in this thread, saw that the discussion got derailed a bit.
I think that the plot of Final Fantasy VIII was meant to be taken at face value. I don't think that the writers planned a major Mulholland Drive-esque interpretation, and the plot was simply meant to be as cheesy and convenient as it is. That being said though, your interpretation certainly made the plot much more interesting and gives it aesthetic merit where there was little before. While there are definitely flaws in your theory, for me personally, overlooking them to accept the more subversive interpretation of the plot is preferable over enduring the awkward writing and accepting the game as it's written.
So thanks for adding value to a game that while I enjoyed, never really felt like it had any kind of edge. Now I feel more motivation to dig the game out for a replay at some point in the future.
I think that the plot of Final Fantasy VIII was meant to be taken at face value. I don't think that the writers planned a major Mulholland Drive-esque interpretation, and the plot was simply meant to be as cheesy and convenient as it is. That being said though, your interpretation certainly made the plot much more interesting and gives it aesthetic merit where there was little before. While there are definitely flaws in your theory, for me personally, overlooking them to accept the more subversive interpretation of the plot is preferable over enduring the awkward writing and accepting the game as it's written.
So thanks for adding value to a game that while I enjoyed, never really felt like it had any kind of edge. Now I feel more motivation to dig the game out for a replay at some point in the future.
Zoe
Member
Okay, the speech SHOULD be in this one:
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9001711
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9001711
Prime Blue
Member
That's the original:Himuro said:
How About No
Member
Hey look a title drop!
Prime Blue
Member
Note that this was one of the last few games that were translated before SQUARE got really professional with its localizations.Himuro said:
The most important remark she makes is "for eternity", though. Doesn't sound very mortal to me...
SuperDowns
Banned
Am I the only one that wasn't able to finish FF8, not because of story headaches but not having a crew that can do it.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Prime Blue said:
Whoa. This definitely changes things.
Prime Blue said:
"Eternity" doesn't mean she's immortal. The Sorceresses life spans are established in the Ultimania and appear supported by the fact there aren't immortal Sorceresses running around and Adel's hunt for a successor after her death.
I've heard the English script of FF8, while being a far more *polished* script than FF7 and Tactics, is not entirely accurate. To the point where I've known people that played it in Japanese and liked the game better. As someone else said in this thread (or maybe the other one?), video game scripts tend to lean more towards adaptations than translations.
FF8's English script is actually quite good for using proper English grammar and spelling. But it does create some issues with how that translator chose to adapt the story. Some of the characters come off rather differently.
Himuro said:
Quick google doesn't show such a project.
But there is this gamefaqs thread about a guy playing the japanese game and posting the differences he meets.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=197343&topic=48710512
His take on Edea's speech is slightly different (maybe cruder) than the one by Prime Blue.
I killed Ultimecia with Angelo's Counter, after spamming dozens of Renzokukens. That dog was the real fated SeeD!
Scythesurge
Member
Well how about that Japanese translation...wow.
Freshmaker said:
I see your point, but Ultimecia's ulterior goal in attaining Time Compression essentially was to avoid her death. If she really had some kind of cognizance in Squall's role of her own death even despite all of the obstacles (Seifer, Edea, Galbadia, Adel, Time Compression itself), then it makes zero sense that Squall wasn't her primary target. This is somewhat mitigated when concerning her effort to catch Ellone, but even this would be nonsensical when considering that the crux of Ultimecia even knowing about Squall as her defeat would require the loop to have occurred at least once before and she would know that she would have died even despite Time Compression.
If you want to finish something off permanently, you just go do it yourself. You don't waste manpower and resources in something that (if Ultimecia really was aware of what would happen) would fail regardless.
And Galbadia responds with a whooping couple dozen infantry men and a heavily damaged, barely functional killer Zamboni machine. For all of Ultimecia's perception, she didn't even think that the logic of "Well, these SeeD almost defeated me not too long ago, but I'm sure the ineffective military will get it done; and we'll also not use all of our technologically superior instruments like our hover cycles, our power armor, or our FLYING GARDEN" was a bad idea? It's like she purposely set herself up for failure.
And wow at the original Japanese translation at that scene.
I like the basic premise of Rahuls theory (his explanation is somewhat "reaching" though) but I feel there is a big gapping hole in it, namely Ellone's involvement in the whole thing, more specifically her obvious acquaintance with Squall from the very beginning (Ellone: Squall...so we meet again.) and her meddling with the team, sending them back in time on numerous occasions through out disc one which falls in with how the story folds out later on.
Another quote from Ellone suggesting she knew both Squall and Quistis from as far back as childhood: *Squall and Quistis walk into the scene as Ellone is trapped by monsters in the training center*
Was Quistis referred to as "whatever her name is spelled in kana"-chan
at this moment in the Japanese language version? Which would suggest more than a casual or formal acquaintance... rather Ellone's emotional connection towards Quistis.
A later reference to Quisty made during Irvine's recollection of life in the orphanage:
I think the game should be taken at face value, a tale of an introvert breaking out of his shell, accepting the world surrounding him and getting to grips with responsibilities of adulthood facing him, bad as it is in it's execution...
...With short turn around times they had back then I doubt much of the story, other than the general themes and setting got fleshed out before they were already deep in the actual development. Take into account the various ideas on locale, plot events, character development, etc. that (having to fill out 40 to 60 hours of play time) inevitably got tacked on late into development, under time constraints the end result couldn't have been anything but a complete mess of a plot. Standard of major jrpg games' plots back then. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I found FFX much more coherent both in it's plot conception and execution.
Still the game hit at just the right time for me, when I was 17 and could relate to the character of Squall on pretty much every level (embarrassing as it is to admit) and, nostalgia fueled or not, remains one of my all time favorites to this very day...
Another quote from Ellone suggesting she knew both Squall and Quistis from as far back as childhood: *Squall and Quistis walk into the scene as Ellone is trapped by monsters in the training center*
Ellone said:
Was Quistis referred to as "whatever her name is spelled in kana"-chan
at this moment in the Japanese language version? Which would suggest more than a casual or formal acquaintance... rather Ellone's emotional connection towards Quistis.A later reference to Quisty made during Irvine's recollection of life in the orphanage:
Irvine said:
I think the game should be taken at face value, a tale of an introvert breaking out of his shell, accepting the world surrounding him and getting to grips with responsibilities of adulthood facing him, bad as it is in it's execution...
...With short turn around times they had back then I doubt much of the story, other than the general themes and setting got fleshed out before they were already deep in the actual development. Take into account the various ideas on locale, plot events, character development, etc. that (having to fill out 40 to 60 hours of play time) inevitably got tacked on late into development, under time constraints the end result couldn't have been anything but a complete mess of a plot. Standard of major jrpg games' plots back then. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I found FFX much more coherent both in it's plot conception and execution.
Still the game hit at just the right time for me, when I was 17 and could relate to the character of Squall on pretty much every level (embarrassing as it is to admit) and, nostalgia fueled or not, remains one of my all time favorites to this very day...
Zoe
Member
Shubit said:Was Quistis referred to as "whatever her name is spelled in kana"-chan
They just chop off the 's' (or 'su' in Japanese) from her name.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
I think her goal was more to avoid her imprisonment. Create an ideal world just for herself. Avoiding her death was seen as more of a bonus.MechaX said:
Not if someone in the past wrote down somewhere that Ultimecia is killed by SeeD after they killed her. She'd been introduced from the future, and the historical record is what chained her to the time loop in the first place.
I don't really get where you're getting these wierd time loop rules. If they hadn't stopped her, there would be no loop. If they hadn't taken steps to prevent the time compression, Ultimecia would have no cause to attempt time compression so there would be no loop.
Pitting SeeD against SeeD probably worked well enough in her view. It weakened both gardens involved in the attack.
She wasn't exactly all powerful. By the time she'd decided that Squall was probably a major threat, she got beaten silly by the team and was forced to jump into Riona.
Yep. It makes the story even dumber.
The gamefaqs thread devolves quickly.
Is there any other particularly important speech in which the fandom maybe reads too much in the game, that prime blue or some other nice person could translate?
Probably the dialogue around "the fated SeeD" would be interesting.
Maybe Ultimecia didn't really know about her downfall; if the self fullfilled prophecy theory is accepted, she assumed the name of Ultimecia just in reference to the legendary witch that tried time compression, then came around into getting the means to achieve that.
So her main objective as Edea/Adel/Rinoa is Ellone, and the fated SeeD line is just a reference about how pesky Squall is becoming; it doesn't make sense that she would recognize the guy who would finally kill her before TC is achieved, and in the garden battle of all places.
Is there any other particularly important speech in which the fandom maybe reads too much in the game, that prime blue or some other nice person could translate?
Probably the dialogue around "the fated SeeD" would be interesting.
Maybe Ultimecia didn't really know about her downfall; if the self fullfilled prophecy theory is accepted, she assumed the name of Ultimecia just in reference to the legendary witch that tried time compression, then came around into getting the means to achieve that.
So her main objective as Edea/Adel/Rinoa is Ellone, and the fated SeeD line is just a reference about how pesky Squall is becoming; it doesn't make sense that she would recognize the guy who would finally kill her before TC is achieved, and in the garden battle of all places.
Roto13 said:
I disagree. The logic he gave was that one script made Rinoa simply protest Squall's attitude and one made her sound like a five year old throwing a temper tantrum. Yea, his literal translation is nowhere close to real English, but there's a lot more leeway in how to translate a line like that to preserve the character.
Some alternatives that sound like naturaal English dialog:
"You're rude! RUDE!"
"You're cruel! CRUEL!"
"You have no heart! NO HEART!"
"Snake. SNAAAAAAAAKE!"
Okay, I made up that last one.
I think he mainly pulled that line out because it's one of the lines Rinoa gets early on that tend to make English players hate her. A little shifting in word choice creates a completely different impression of the character.
Don't believe me? Tell me right now then - what happens when you change "No Russian" to "Kill all the Russians?"
Roto13 said:
She's supposed to be immature, but I think there's still a fine line between general immaturity and sheer obnoxiousness. She couldn't have gotten as far as she did on her own if her reaction to everything was a temper tantrum and she responded to everyone with baby talk. She had a level of competency to get there, just extreme naivety and bad motivations that held her back.
Prime Blue
Member
ULTIMANIA is written by the staff of Studio Bent Stuff, not Nojima.Rebochan said:
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Prime Blue said:
Uhhhhh, WOW. Is that really the original text? If so, then hmmmmmmmmmmm.
draftingscotch
Member
Wow, I'm seeing a pattern here... I also couldn't get past Adel when it came out because I didn't like or understand junctioning, and summoning seemed to work well enough. I think it's safe to say that a game's combat system is a little broken if it lets players get ~30 hours into a game before letting them know that they've been doing it wrong...Rahul said:
As for your Squal's Dead theory, it definitely sounds interesting, but I wish I'd read it 10 years ago when I played it since I don't really remember the plot now (and no offense, but there's no way that I'd replay 40 hours just to see if you're right
).Scythesurge
Member
Yeah I'm curious about the translation of the last lines of the game, from the time the party encounters Ultimecia until when Squall asks "Am I alone" or whatever.
Dr Bad Dude PHD
Banned
The thing about that is, when a girl calls you "mean", it's because she likes you. When she says "meany" after it, it's because she wants to look cute. Of course context in everything.
Zoe
Member
Scythesurge said:
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9699728
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9702578
For anyone who wants to take a stab at it.
charlequin
Banned
Rahul said:
What insight, precisely, are we gaining through this approach that is not present in the vanilla narrative? That Squall is an emo jerk who secretly underneath his harsh facade wishes for romantic love, familial bonds, and camaraderie? OH WAIT THAT'S ALL ALREADY IN THE GAME
Presumably someone who had a stupid theory about the game's zomg seekrit meaning and who wants people to take it halfway seriously would?
EDIT: god you guys are nitpicking the translation now wtf