ViolentP
Member
Probably because this is an inaccurate representation of the draw many have towards trophies.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Anyone else playing Botw and wish for trophies???
- Thread starter EhoaVash
- Start date
Probably because this is an inaccurate representation of the draw many have towards trophies.
fvng
Member
this was literally your response
It's like you are missing the most bare minimum of self awareness. ��
My arguments have already been stated and none have been negated. Sorry not sorry that you don't agree, do you know how opinions work? all counter arguments boil down to people not happy about things other people enjoy.
Dsyndrome
Member
I thought you were out. Welcome back.
ephemeral garbage
Member
This. The way it used to be, if you wanted to roll around and wreck the world at max level you could just download someone's save file. To the extent anything like that is possible now, you risk getting your console banned for cheating to protect the perceived value of other people's imaginary internet points.
I'm under no illusion it'll ever go away, but to argue that trophies don't change the game experience for people who aren't interested in them is disingenuous and ignores historical context.
Thanks. The console wars talk stopped thank goodness.
fvng
Member
the removal of in game rewards/extra costumes was due to the opportunity to monetize those things, it's no coincidence that these normally free bonuses went away as soon as internet connected consoles because widespread. It has nothing to do with the creation of a formal achievement system.
ViolentP
Member
Seems like you're mistaking trophies for DLC. DLC killed the cheat code.
royox
Member
I did some times. Usually when doing something and the only reward was 50 rupees. I mean...at least give me something cool in game. Yeah the game is big and has plenty of content and sidequests but nothing as memorable as for example OOT's Biggoron sword quest. Maybe the nearest thing was completing the 3 labyrinths to get the barbarian set. The game lacks giving the player cool stuff for completing hard sidequest stuff.
Pt: OF COURSE eventide island is THE SHIT. But the reward was just seelf steem buff
Pt: OF COURSE eventide island is THE SHIT. But the reward was just seelf steem buff
truestatic
Member
No, but there absence does make Nintendo hardware a last resort for playing most third party games.
KillerDark
Member
Not a chance, I am glad there are no trophies. Trophies just become a checklist of stuff you feel like you have to do (if you care about them), 99% of the time they are not fun.
ViolentP
Member
Aren't they easily ignored if not interested though?
Alebrije
Member
Nope , trophies are a distractor , most used for dudebro comparations.
If you explore Zelda and get seeds or other stuff is because is fun and not an obligation. I have seen people ruining their experience because a glitched trophy, or playing hunting them instean enjoying the game
Hope Nintendo keeps their games clean of trophies.
If you explore Zelda and get seeds or other stuff is because is fun and not an obligation. I have seen people ruining their experience because a glitched trophy, or playing hunting them instean enjoying the game
Hope Nintendo keeps their games clean of trophies.
prag16
Banned
That doesn't prove anything about achievements. It says more about how badly MSFT fucked up, that it was enough for people to overcome their attachment to their gamerscores and jump ship.
This is anecdotal but you see plenty of people choosing PS4 versions over PC versions of games, all else being equal, due to the trophies (even when the PC version has the same steam or origin achievements) since most of the rest of their epeen is stored in their PSN account.
Yes a lot of people jumped ship from Microsoft. But that doesn't mean achievements are not a deterrent.
Yes but I don't like them so no one should have them.
fvng
Member
You don't have to do them bro.
Liliana Eileen
Member
You're trying way too hard. That wasn't my response, nice cherry pick. I quoted an entire paragraph of you throwing a fit over someones opinion in response to you saying you were only providing "counter-arguments." That entire paragraph embodied everything about your rant that was being responded to. Your response is "you got nothing." Uh, what?
I tell you if you know how opinions work, which is a valid criticism to your rant, and you follow by asking me the EXACT same sentence verbatim in all your responses.
I am ending this right here because you seemingly lack the comprehensional skills for a valid argument, and have proven my point without realizing it. Plus, this thread is already full of back and forths from everyone. PM me if you wish to continue, otherwise go ahead with your last word having, edgy witty retort.
Barajas_201
Member
I just don't understand. Why are fanboys so irrational and have such fervor defending a garbage anti-customer company like Nintendo that can't even provide a simple trophy system that has zero negative impact on games? I just can't.
Prism Sentence
Banned
It's not inaccurate at all. It's a cynical interpretation that you don't agree with. That's fair.
ViolentP
Member
I am living proof that you are wrong. Trophies are easily ignored. For those interested, it can serve as a checklist of further content to explore. I'd agree with you if I also believed that no supporter of trophies can think for themselves.
EDIT: That sounded harsher than I meant it to. I respect that you understand you are coming from an angle of cynicism. I can certainly understand that.
Seriously. I'm shocked at how much difficulty some people have in disregarding options they are uninterested in when it has no effect on the aspects they do enjoy.
Put down your pitchfork console warrior.
This thread...
Kssio_Aug
Member
Understood now. But I disagree with you. I think that good devs will design a good game that shines by it's own merits (just like BotW) and just implement the trophies above the surface of what the game itself already offers. That said, they would not design the game in any extent around trophies, but they still can easily implement them, creating statistics and contributing to an extra incentive.
For example... I'm recently playing Persona and all the social link stuff was done without trohpies in mind, but they just added a trophy about maximizing them all which contributes to more replayability even though it would be perfectly fine without it.
And to be very honest... I think most devs out there DO NOT design a game around trophies, but the contrary: they design the trophies around their games.
old manatee
Banned
Trophies and achievements are always a negative for me.
Wow. I never made this connection. It all makes sense now.
You've brought literally nothing to this thread but ad hominem and strawmanning a guy arguing in good faith. Youve provided no good reason why trophies or achievements shouldn't be in games or why Zelda would be actively harmed by their inclusion for people that want them and the one click option to easily ignore them for the people who dont. Good job.
Goldenroad
Member
The only reason I wish there were trophies/achievements would be to push me in the direction of some things that I might otherwise never find. Like if there was an achievement for finding all 25 stables or whatever...I'm pulling that number out of my ass btw...I might be more inclined to go search them all out.
ViolentP
Member
Bingo.
fvng
Member
It makes no sense. What does make sense is that they removed free bonus items so they could sell them on PSN and XBL instead. You only need to look at what happened to aesthetic bonuses to get your answer on this. They were free now they're not.
Plenty of games do this. I saw scenes in portal 2 I would have otherwise missed. I engaged in a secret boss battle in Nier Automata I would have otherwise missed if it weren't for the trophy to find and upgrade every weapon.
Opponents of trophies are ignoring these type of trophies to convenience their argument.
I think there's a disingenuous nature to the argument that trophies are easily ignored, or at least I don't think it serves as a proper argument for them to exist in every single game.
For one, the argument that one can consciously choose to ignore them is not the point. The point is that trophies do have a psychological effect on the player (otherwise they wouldn't be there, because it would be a waste of development time), and it's more honest to recognize this and, from there, discuss how that effect fits into the design of any specific game in hindsight, then to tell people who don't want them in a specific game for specific reasons that they're "limiting choice" or otherwise being detrimental to others' experiences because "you can ignore it!"
Some of the psychological effect of trophies have been mentioned time and time again: as they're commonly implemented, they're skinner boxes that typically reward you for either mundane or incongruent tasks with a little notification and/or a log that you did the mundane or incongruent thing. This is likely to influence players to either A.) go out of their way to do even more mundane or incongruent things in order to keep attaining the positive reinforcement of merely earning an achievement, or B.) Make players who aren't so susceptible to that nonetheless aware of them anyway and have to adjust their experience accordingly by either outright avoiding doing things in the game or taking time adjusting the system options, both of which count as effects of their existence.
People have then explained time and time again that Breath of the Wild's greatest strength is that it deliberately decides not to overtly influence you to do anything that you wouldn't want to do outside of your own volition, and to be confident enough in itself that its design and inherent gameplay rewards are all players need to satisfy themselves. All it really does is tell you to destroy Ganon, and then after that it is hands off. It is both a deliberate callback to the first game in the franchise- made during a time where system-side achievements just didn't exist- and as Nintendo's take and counter to some of the modern characteristics and flaws of modern open-world gaming. To then advocate for the idea of putting achievements in such a game is simply antithetical to its goals and overall spirit. That's why people don't want them in Breath of the Wild.
Not everything that's "perfectly optional" belongs in every game. Not every game is for everybody. Not every game needs to uphold every single arbitrary standard of modern gaming just because every other game is doing it. There are literally thousands of games that offer achievements. Why do you need to insist that Breath of the Wild should gain them or is in any way obligated to, especially if your biggest defense of achievements is that they effectively don't matter and have no effect on anything? Well, if they have no effect, then you can live without them for one game.
For one, the argument that one can consciously choose to ignore them is not the point. The point is that trophies do have a psychological effect on the player (otherwise they wouldn't be there, because it would be a waste of development time), and it's more honest to recognize this and, from there, discuss how that effect fits into the design of any specific game in hindsight, then to tell people who don't want them in a specific game for specific reasons that they're "limiting choice" or otherwise being detrimental to others' experiences because "you can ignore it!"
Some of the psychological effect of trophies have been mentioned time and time again: as they're commonly implemented, they're skinner boxes that typically reward you for either mundane or incongruent tasks with a little notification and/or a log that you did the mundane or incongruent thing. This is likely to influence players to either A.) go out of their way to do even more mundane or incongruent things in order to keep attaining the positive reinforcement of merely earning an achievement, or B.) Make players who aren't so susceptible to that nonetheless aware of them anyway and have to adjust their experience accordingly by either outright avoiding doing things in the game or taking time adjusting the system options, both of which count as effects of their existence.
People have then explained time and time again that Breath of the Wild's greatest strength is that it deliberately decides not to overtly influence you to do anything that you wouldn't want to do outside of your own volition, and to be confident enough in itself that its design and inherent gameplay rewards are all players need to satisfy themselves. All it really does is tell you to destroy Ganon, and then after that it is hands off. It is both a deliberate callback to the first game in the franchise- made during a time where system-side achievements just didn't exist- and as Nintendo's take and counter to some of the modern characteristics and flaws of modern open-world gaming. To then advocate for the idea of putting achievements in such a game is simply antithetical to its goals and overall spirit. That's why people don't want them in Breath of the Wild.
Not everything that's "perfectly optional" belongs in every game. Not every game is for everybody. Not every game needs to uphold every single arbitrary standard of modern gaming just because every other game is doing it. There are literally thousands of games that offer achievements. Why do you need to insist that Breath of the Wild should gain them or is in any way obligated to, especially if your biggest defense of achievements is that they effectively don't matter and have no effect on anything? Well, if they have no effect, then you can live without them for one game.
Prism Sentence
Banned
So if that's the only reason, why wouldn't the internet suffice?
Funny part is, people seem to have screwy logic when it comes to rewards and trophies. People complain that trophies don't give you anything in-game or are just arbitrary... but there are TONS of trophies for unlocking stuff in the game, but those don't count I guess? Beat a hard challenge, get awesome new weapon, trophy pops up... oh shit you just played yourself son
ViolentP
Member
It seems like they already have a preconceived notion on what trophies represent and that notion is a very negative one. I put about 80 hours into FFXV and I loved it but I wanted more. That trophy list gave me direction on further content I could capitalize on. I don't care how angry some people may get, I will not apologize for seeing the value in that.
Cipher Peon
Banned
You're going to need to explain literally everything out of this sentence.
How are trophies distracting when preferably they have an option to turn them off?
Why use dudebro as a qualifier? Why is dudebro used as a negative? What's wrong with being a dudebro? Why use dudebro when many people who don't identify as such enjoy trophies?
What's wrong with comparations? It adds a social element of meta competition, which even if you dislike that it doesn't directly effect you and would be preferable to the nothing that the Switch provides.
I love comparing trophies between friends and I love being described as a dudebro, neither of which I think are even remotely negative.
sixteen-bit
Member
900 korok seeds are their own reward
WrenchNinja
Member
"Dudebro"
Being able to turn something off doesn't mean it isn't inherently a distraction when on, just like being able to ignore most the cut scenes in BotW doesn't mean that the voice acting suddenly isn't shit. Optional things can be bad.
A few weeks ago, I was going through my older trophies and revisited my Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas trophies. Each tile is a funny little picture with the vault guy that kind of illustrates the action or quest line with a cheesy joke or reference as the title. I used timestamps to trace my journey through the game, and the pictures jogged my memory of the quests, like fighting a horde of giant ants or hilariously walking out of the Dead Money casino ridiculously overburdened with gold bars. Made me nostalgic for the games, and now I'm about halfway through Fallout 4 as a result.
But yeah trophies are a blight on gaming and should be expunged from the earth entirely
Papo Swing
Member
I hope you guys are being serious because this is an issue I have always spoken up about and I really don't get why people don't see it. Trophies have taken cool stuff away while adding no real value.
The game save thing is an extra thing I hadn't considered as I didn't do it in those days that much.
That is not true. Trophies are empty they are just a pop up text thing for empty boasting. In the past you beat a game and the cheat menu unlocked or something else at times and you got something. You beat a fighter you got free costumes or stuff.
They now make us pay for that stuff and just give us an empty you did it message.
And they started going away right at the time Trophies and DLC came in. I just don't get why people don't see it at all. They are not unrelated as they were similar aspects of the video game reward systems. I may be wrong in assigning ALL blame, I get it, but they are totally related.
Kssio_Aug
Member
I don't think your comparison is valid. You're obliged to hear the voice acting if you want the story to be told to you. You can ignore trophies completely and it won't affect your gaming experience at all if you don't like 'em.
I don't think any game needs trophy or achievement (if a game needs it, is because its not good in the first place), but I think that no game can be hurt by them, since the system allows to be completely ignored without affecting a single in-game aspect. That said, trophies / achievements addition can be only benefical in my point of view: you either use it or not, that's entirely up to you. Reasonn why I think Nintendo should implement it in their ecosystem.
I really don't get the active dislike against trophies. If you don't care about them, that's fine, but you don't have to be against them for people that like them. I personally don't really care about my trophy level or anything, but if I really like a game it feels nice to platinum it as an official completion sort of thing. I've always wished Nintendo would add something similar to all their games.
As a result, I have so many memories of unlocking certain trophies. It just feels nice to scroll through there once in a while and reminisce.
As a result, I have so many memories of unlocking certain trophies. It just feels nice to scroll through there once in a while and reminisce.
Other questions I have is why do people feel obligated to experience everything in a game? If you want to just play through to the credits and never pick the game up again, that's fine, so long as you enjoyed yourself. If you feel that this isn't a valuable experience and you want to see more or find out more, why isn't the curiosity in and of itself enough of a motivator to keep you playing?
In short, why do people rely achievements to partake in more than the bare minimum? It almost sounds like modern gameplay conventions in and of themselves have become torturous and people need to justify the sunk cost somehow.
In short, why do people rely achievements to partake in more than the bare minimum? It almost sounds like modern gameplay conventions in and of themselves have become torturous and people need to justify the sunk cost somehow.
ViolentP
Member
An accurate example of the value I see in a trophy system. At the risk of sounding stubborn, the added value trophies occasionally provide ensures that I will not be swayed from my support of them in their current state.
Papo Swing
Member
So I am against them because they do nothing and I think they ate into some cool stuff we used to get in the past.
The only game that IMO has a worthwhile platinum trophy is Bloodborne as you get something out of it. Don't know about any other examples.
If you and people that like them would advocate for a trohpy-reward system, even if it is like a stupid avatar pic, I would be all for trophies.
So would you?
Mizzou Gaming
Member
As with every Nintendo game, I sorely miss their lack of achievement system. It's also why I only buy my very favorite first party games on my Nintendo systems.
For those so opposed to achievements, if they were added would you stop buying Nintendo games and systems?
I'm not sure about everyone else, I can only speak for myself but I would buy significantly more 1st, 3rd and Indie games on my Switch if an achievement/trophy system was implemented.
For those so opposed to achievements, if they were added would you stop buying Nintendo games and systems?
I'm not sure about everyone else, I can only speak for myself but I would buy significantly more 1st, 3rd and Indie games on my Switch if an achievement/trophy system was implemented.
It is valid because the majority of story in BotW is optional, just like achievements are optional. Ergo, a conscious decision to ignore the story doesn't mean that the voice acting contained within suddenly becomes better, no more than turning off the achievement system suddenly means that the effect the achievement system would have on the game experience as a whole if it were turned on doesn't exist. "It's optional!!!" is not perfect Yu-Gi-Oh trap card people keep insisting it is.
Sure, if they could do a cool twist on trophies that would be interesting. It's just nice to have a system wide list that keeps track of all your in game achievements.
Also, there are plenty of "worthwhile" platinum trophies out there. For example, there's Metal Gear Solid HD Collection. That platinum was a major pain in the ass, but it was a new list of goals to have for people that have already played those games. Trophies just add another layer of completion.
You are a much better writer than me. Thanks for the contribution.