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[2blackcats]

Trophies do no increase a game's content. They just make you do menial things over and over again. It's mindless obsessive-compulsive padding, just like collectathons.

That's what they are to you.

Other people find them rewarding and engaging.

I have very few platinums but a recent one I got was Mad Max. I found the Trophy hunt after the storyline infinity more rewarding than the main game. Was just an excuse to explore the atmospheric game world.

First full achievement score I got was Geometry Wars on 360. I had no friends(high scores to chase) but I still managed to have fun with some goals (achievements)


I think a nice system for Nintendo would be a game complete badge. When you've done everything(as defined by the devs) in game. You get your MK8D or Zelda badge or whatever.

 

[Fisty]

Then I am out...It is sad IMO there is not winning with you guys.

My take from this thread is that you would go out of your way to stop simple rewards on achievements/trophies so that more people would buy into them just because you think they have enough value already adn want to prove a point.

And I'll eat a hat if when RE2 comes out what I described is not exactly the same. I will be surprised if they give out all that content for free as unlocks.

You can look at the RE1 remake that just came out, or the dozens of HD Remasters last gen. What you are saying is happening has not happened and most likely won't happen.

Shooting all the Kerotan in MGS3 HD still unlocks stealth camo. Beating Resident Evil 4 HD on Professional still unlocks whatever gun it unlocks. They didn't strip out Mercenaries and sell it to you as DLC. REmake HD had optional costumes to buy, but they weren't in the original game and they weren't required or even incentivized beyond a goofy costume. They didn't sell Vergil as DLC for Devil May Cry 3 HD.

Again, if you have any examples that prove your point other than a game that I don't even think has officially been announced, I'm all ears.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

A lot of people are straight up saiying they are not playing it/getting a switch because it does not have trophies

Because that's how they, themselves, feel about it. They're not saying you should not buy a Switch because of it, they're saying they avoid buying cause they think that's a relevante features that Nintendo lacks. A feature that actually I struggle to see how it would negatively affect anyone.

 

[Waji]

Wow - it's actually kind of impressive how vehement some posters in this thread are towards their disapproval of trophies and achievements

The only sensible counter-arguments I've seen are those fromNepenthe]/b] and break-fuss.

If trophies achievements truly didn't affect people in any sub-conscious manner, no one would argue for their existence.

However, anyone how seriously feels trophies or achievements would corrupt the purity of Zelda, they need to calm down.
That speaks like evangelical nonsense.

I personaly didn't say or think it would corrupt whatever purity.
Only that it's a system only there to list the things you did in a game and compare with other people.
Beside that, it just depends on the player. But everything was right before this system was introduced.

So I don't really care about if, but still think it's not needed. Just my opinion.

 

[Kaleinc]

One of few things Nin does right.

 

[mrmickfran]

Lmao at the first few posts. Jesus people, the guy just wants more reasons to go back to the game.

Y'all act like trophies are the worst thing to happen to gaming.

 

[Nepenthe]

The level of condescension in your posts is disgusting, done talking with you.

But the sarcasm and victim complex from people whose ideas have been rebuked is perfectly fine. Okay.

Bye Felicia.

Lol wait so people who like trophies are pushers now?

Yes, because they are insisting that Breath of the Wild and Nintendo should have achievement systems. That's what this discussion has inherently turned into.

Pavlovian conditioning?

The way achievements are normally designed is basically textbook Pavlovian conditioning, yes. Granted, many things in games are like this as a matter of necessity for getting you to perform rewarding actions over and over, and some games are designed wholly around it, but that's besides the point.

We are forcing this stuff upon innocent pure gamers who enjoy games the right way?

I don't know where in this topic I said anything about "innocent gamers" or what the "right way" to play is, but I would consider the insistence by pro-achievement people that Nintendo is at a disadvantage for not having achievement systems, and the assertion that achievements have no effect on games (even when people somehow argue in the same sentence it's the only way to get them to play the game after the credits) and thus it's fine for them to be anywhere and everywhere to be an insistence that this should be forced into Nintendo's ecosystems. If people are not insisting that BotW and by extension Nintendo should have achievements, then consider me reading too much into the fervor and defensiveness with which people are decrying the initial and continued protest against the OP's idea.

Seriously, this is ridiculous. They are designed by people that make the games so you see everything they have spent years working on and spend more time with the game. Not all trophies are created equal: at best they are a great addition and can lead to some memorable moments, at worst they are something you can completely ignore and never have to deal with. I just can't picture in my head the guy sitting there, sweating profusely while going through Horizon Zero Dawn trying so hard to fight the irresistible urge to look at a goddamn trophy list. This isn't mobile gaming where ads are shoved in your face and games are tuned to get you to spend insane amounts of money or time on the game to increase revenue. A pub or dev gets absolutely nothing extra if you spend the time collecting the gold film reels in LA Noire, other than the fact that someone explored the city and appreciated all the hard work that went in to those environments.

The length of time a game and all of its content takes to make is irrelevant to the experience that a player will receive of that game, and I imagine developers know this already going into it. The rate of 100% completion among the general populous for most games- especially most open world games- is paltry. The majority of the gaming audience is not doing and seeing everything any one game has to offer, even in this era of achievement systems bursting from the seams of modern gaming platforms. That's okay! (although it actually does make me wonder about the effectiveness of achievements in pushing players to continue playing if that is their main benefit. There have to be statistics on this.)

But, if you are now arguing that achievements are good because they give developers a greater satisfaction in knowing that someone found everything in their game, and achievements quantify those discoveries as proof, then I feel like you're speaking too far. Now, I'm no developer myself, but I am an artist and animator who knows that the layman doesn't understand art and animation to the technical degree that I do and thus will probably never get my full intent. So if were to extend my own experiences of making art, developers probably get out of bed in the morning just knowing that someone is enjoying their shit in general. Like, I'm pretty sure Game Freak gets as much if not more joy seeing a child's face light up when they play a Pokemon game at all than they do seeing 30 year olds calculate EVs.

I'm trying to understand why it's so hard for you to believe people like the system the way it is and why it is so difficult for you to just turn them off if you hate them so much. I'm not interested in changing something I don't have a problem with so your comparisons just fall flat for me.

I have done no such thing, that's just you putting words in my mouth. They're is no point in trying to convince people that are so hard headed that that they think all of these things are so bad on top of purposely ignoring the fact that you can turn it off.

Puhleez, why don't you just grow up and accept that people like things differently from you?

Understanding that people like achievements isn't the problem. People like what they like.

However, I expect that in a discussion concerning the merits and flaws of anything, the potential flaws of that thing won't be waived away with "just ignore it!" Yes, you can ignore achievements, but this isn't actually a defense of achievements either in terms of the way they're implemented or the common challenges they offer. If I devolved to the same dismissive behavior and told people who didn't like the overwhelming negativity to just "get out of this thread and ignore it if it bothers you so much," I'd be the bad guy.

And I'll "grow up" when people stop insisting that Nintendo should have achievements and "accept" that the company doesn't want to implement them. Respect of preferences is a two-way street here.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

Because that's how they, themselves, feel about it. They're not saying you should not buy a Switch because of it, they're saying they avoid buying cause they think that's a relevante features that Nintendo lacks. A feature that actually I struggle to see how it would negatively affect anyone.

That's a bit of a mental gymnastics there. If they're saying that they're not buying it because it lacks trophies, then they're obviously saying it needs it.

And I do think a lot of sensible points have been made on this thread as to how it negatively affects video games, the biggest example is people feeling like they don't have a reason to play something because it lacks a digital trophy. It also makes some developers quite lazy when trying to extend the life of their games, we had a really bad run with that during 2008 ~ 2011

 

[ViolentP]

Hey I was all ok with trophies until I got my Bloodborne platinum and got something out of it. That made me do a 180 on them because, why did Bloodborne rewards me for beating it fully, but no other game? And it would add a lot to people's bragging rights if they had that avatar or theme for achieving that.

I totally get the pissing off the people, but I want similar stuff to what those few game do for platinum at least and that is all I ask. That is all it takes to make me and I guess a few other to buy in.

I mean I get it. Nothing wrong for wanting reward for dedication. I personally would have no issue with it. I would expect the shitstorm when some developer throws a wanted reward behind a ton of terrible trophies though. But perhaps that'll server to keep the quality of trophies up.

 

[Timeaisis]

Nah, I play games for the experience.

I guess I wouldn't hate achievements, but it wouldn't be something I actively seek out.

 

[steveovig]

I wish BOTW had them and the Switch, as a whole, had them. It's simple. All the competition has implemented an achievement system so therefore Nintendo should do it too in order to keep up. Them not having a system just makes them look a little inferior.

Of course, the feature isn't a make or break thing when it comes to console sales and I do realize that. Still, they are fun to a lot of people and are completely harmless to people who don't like them.

 

[plagiarize]

Personally? Not at all.

I turned achievement notifications off when I played RE7 and The Last Guardian, for example. In a game where I want to lose myself in the world, I find they take me out of the experience.

In a racing game, or something like that, I like them.

But that's just me. I don't begrudge anyone who likes them in such games, and have no problem with them existing so long as I can turn off the notifications.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

That's a bit of a mental gymnastics there. If they're saying that they're not buying it because it lacks trophies, then they're obviously saying it needs it.

And I do think a lot of sensible points have been made on this thread as to how it negatively affects video games, the biggest example is people feeling like they don't have a reason to play something because it lacks a digital trophy. It also makes some developers quite lazy when trying to extend the life of their games, we had a really bad run with that during 2008 ~ 2011

They're saying they need it. BotW is an awesome game the way it is, and I don't think no one will say the game is bad or worse becuse it lacks this feature. But still, they're in their rights for not buying or playing it if they feel that achievements are such a relevant feature nowadays. Which I actually partially disagree (I buy the games I like, even if they don't offer it... but that's me).

And I don't think that how different people likes to play their games is a sensible point to justify why such a optional feature shouldn't exist. If for me getting trophies is the most important aspect of gaming nowadays, that's my problem... people don't have the rights to tell me this feature shouldn't exist because I shouldn't like for "reasons" - which again, I struggle to understand... what's the problem if someone likes to complete the trophies challanges? Why is it so bad? What makes hunting for trophies a "sick" thing as some like to say, while finishing tons of videogames and collecting it's secrets or duscussing it constantly in the internet does not fall under the same cattegory?

 

[plagiarize]

They're saying they need it. BotW is an awesome game the way it is, and I don't think no one will say the game is bad becuse it lacks this feature. But still, they're in their rights for not buying or playing it if they feel that achievements are such a relevant feature nowadays. Which I actually partially disagree (I buy the games I like, even if they don't offer it... but that's me).

And I don't think that how different people likes to play their games is a sensible point to justify why such a optional feature shouldn't exist. If for me getting trophies is the most important aspect of gaming nowadays, that's my problem... people don't have the rights to tell me this feature shouldn't exist because I shouldn't like for "reasons" - which again, I struggle to understand... what's the problem if someone likes to complete the trophies challanges? Why is it so bad?

The only 'optional' features I think hurt the experience for everyone, are optional short cuts, because whether you choose to use them or not, having the choice changes the experience.

But achievements? Yeah. Just turn off the notifications if you don't like them. That's what I do and it is literally zero skin off my nose. I'm not going to lose any sleep over how other people want to play a game.

 

[Nepenthe]

The only 'optional' features I think hurt the experience for everyone, are optional short cuts, because whether you choose to use them or not, having the choice changes the experience.

But achievements? Yeah. Just turn off the notifications if you don't like them. That's what I do and it is literally zero skin off my nose. I'm not going to lose any sleep over how other people want to play a game.

I'm curious. How does having optional short cuts change the experience but optional achievements don't?

 

[fvng]

In every case I can think of, achievements/trophies are on by default, and thus will color the experience of the 90% of players. Game developers should have the ability to choose whether they think achievements are a good fit for a particular game.

(And yes, some Nintendo games have achievements—Smash Brothers for instance)

or you can disable notifications and pretend they don't exist and it will have zero impact on their experience

 

[ViolentP]

I'm curious. How does having optional short cuts change the experience but optional achievements don't?

I think we rely too much on technology to cater restraint. We should all be able to have an option presented to us and be able to disregard it without further consideration

 

[Fisty]

Yes, because they are insisting that Breath of the Wild and Nintendo should have achievement systems. That's what this discussion has inherently turned into.

Thats... Not how this works at all. Did people complaining that Sony didn't offer external HDD support mean that when they finally Did, you were forced to hook up a mandatory HDD and store your games there? No. It's an option, completely optional and not at all required, that lots of people want that wouldn't affect the people that don't want it in the slightest.

The way achievements are normally designed is basically textbook Pavlovian conditioning, yes. Granted, many things in games are like this as a matter of necessity for getting you to perform rewarding actions over and over, and some games are designed wholly around it, but that's besides the point.

So you're saying scores, leaderboards, EXP leveling up, the noise the coins make in Mario... all of those should be removed from gaming because they create a feedback loop which is the main goal of any gameplay system in any video game ever. Gotcha.

I don't know where in this topic I said anything about "innocent gamers" or what the "right way" to play is, but I would consider the insistence by pro-achievement people that Nintendo is at a disadvantage for not having achievement systems, and the assertion that achievements have no effect on games (even when people somehow argue in the same sentence it's the only way to get them to play the game after the credits) and thus it's fine for them to be anywhere and everywhere to be an insistence that this should be forced into Nintendo's ecosystems. If people are not insisting that BotW and by extension Nintendo should have achievements, then consider me reading too much into the fervor and defensiveness with which people are decrying the initial and continued protest against the OP's idea.

Pretty sure most folks that are for it are saying it would be a great option. I don't think anyone is saying PLEASE ADD 40000 POINTLESS FETCH QUESTS TO ZELDA PLEASE.

The length of time a game and all of its content takes to make is irrelevant to the experience that a player will receive of that game, and I imagine developers know this already going into it. The rate of 100% completion among the general populous for most games- especially most open world games- is paltry. The majority of the gaming audience is not doing and seeing everything any one game has to offer, even in this era of achievement systems bursting from the scenes of modern gaming platforms. That's okay! (although it actually does make me wonder about the effectiveness of achievements in pushing players to continue playing if that is their main benefit. There have to be statistics on this.)

But, if you are now arguing that achievements are good because they give developers a greater satisfaction in knowing that someone found everything in their game, and achievements quantify those discoveries as proof, then I feel like you're speaking too far. Now, I'm no developer myself, but I am an artist and animator who knows that the layman doesn't understand art and animation to the technical degree that I do. So if were to extend my own experiences of making art, developers probably get out of bed in the morning just knowing that someone is enjoying their shit in general. Like, I'm pretty sure Game Freak gets as much if not more joy seeing a child's face light up when they play a Pokemon game at all than they do seeing 30 year olds calculate EVs.

I am definitely arguing that trophies can be a wonderful addition to lots of games because they can signpost content that could be easily missed or overlooked. Consider the fact I would have never in a million years have heard the Rusty Anchor song from Grim Fandango without the trophy for it. And so you, being an artist and animator, how much would you care if you see someone beat a game you worked on? How much would you care if you saw someone got a trophy for doing a special move you spent weeks finetuning the animations for?

 

[Nepenthe]

I think we rely too much on technology to cater restraint. We should all be able to have an option presented to us and be able to disregard it without further consideration

That's what people do.

But that's not the issue.

The issue is what context does the existence of an option in and of itself impart in any given scenario?

People want to focus on nothing but the merit of an option's choices. I want to argue the merit of the option itself.

 

[Tygamr]

I think an in-game challenge system would be cool. Like of there was an NPC that gave out challenges with nice rewards—something like 'kill a hinox with only a bow' to get a special armor or 'try to fly from here to here without touching the ground'. Stuff like that could be cool, so long as they avoided things like 'kill 1,000 bokoblins' etc.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Understanding that people like achievements isn't the problem. People like what they like.

However, I expect that in a discussion concerning the merits and flaws of anything, the potential flaws of that thing won't be waived away with "just ignore it!" Yes, you can ignore achievements, but this isn't actually a defense of achievements either in terms of the way they're implemented or the common challenges they offer. If I devolved to the same dismissive behavior and told people who didn't like the overwhelming negativity to just "get out of this thread and ignore it if it bothers you so much," I'd be the bad guy.

And I'll "grow up" when people stop insisting that Nintendo should have achievements and "accept" that the company doesn't want to implement them. Respect of preferences is a two-way street here.

Then why does it seem to be a problem for you? Why are you questioning they're enjoyment of them?

When the flaws are "it's immersion breaking and distracting", then yes, ignoring them is a perfectly valid thing to bring up. I can't fix collectathons achievements when it comes to tedious and menial ones with a person that just does not liking collectathons or thinking the numbers are too high or whatever or with "kill with this weapon or this way" style ones. The only solutions there are lowering the counts, a dev not doing them at all or the player just ignoring them.

People don't have to accept what the company says when the competition does otherwise, they're a company, they don't have any feelings to protect here, why do you care that people continue to ask? Do you work for them or something? People are allowed to say they want Nintendo to have achievements. Just like they're allowed to say they want a new Metroid or F-Zero. Or want Netflix on the Switch. Or Themes. Or discounts. No one is holding a gun up to Nintendo's head here. People dont need to respect a company's descision here, it's weird that you want them to.

 

[ViolentP]

That's what people do.

But that's not the issue.

The issue is what context does the existence of an option in and of itself impart in any given scenario?

People want to focus on nothing but the merit of an option's choices. I want to argue the merit of the option itself.

Options are very capable of being dormant. It's when the option changes the overall content of a title from one person to another that we begin to see issue as different people see the value content availability very differently.

For example, a trophy system that does not alter game content whatsoever should be easy to ignore. A trophy system that rewards you with additional content however begins to force the hand of people that value content but not trophies. This results in a bad experience for them.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

That's what people do.

But that's not the issue.

The issue is what context does the existence of an option in and of itself impart in any given scenario?

People want to focus on nothing but the merit of an option's choices. I want to argue the merit of the option itself.

Maybe the question you should be doing is: "why not?"

For what reason Nintendo should not add a trophy / achievement system? There's a big public out there that would be glad if they did. And there's another bunch of people who would not be affected at all.

Of course... Nintendo is not obliged to anything, they should do as they please (as long as they're aware that the market will answer as such), but that would not hurt anyone. Options are great, and people like it, specially when this option DOES NOT negativelly interfere in no one's else experience. We're not talking about a compex situation where to give it to some people you will need to deduct something else from others.

 

[FonkyByNature]

I think Trophies/Achievements are a great way to give more life to a game. Zelda BOTW looks like it could benefit from it.

I guess it's the fact that it's Nintendo and they're slow to adopt these kind of things or just prefer to do it their own way.

 

[Nepenthe]

Thats... Not how this works at all.

That is exactly how it works. The argument is whether or not Nintendo should put achievements in BotW and subsequently their systems. Whether or not it's optional- at best- doesn't matter, and at worst, is not an active benefit of achievements and thus it's a non-argument.

So you're saying scores, leaderboards, EXP leveling up, the noise the coins make in Mario... all of those should be removed from gaming because they create a feedback loop which is the main goal of any gameplay system in any video game ever. Gotcha.

You don't get me at all.

My point is that achievements are very simple Pavlovian conditioning. This isn't inherently a bad thing, or even all that relevant to the larger points being made in this thread because video games rely on this kind of enforcement anyway. The question- then- is not whether or not games condition us, because they do, but what are the benefits and drawbacks to specific kinds of conditioning as inherent ideas or when placed within the context of specific games and genres. Is every type of conditioning okay in every single scenario? My answer is no.

Pretty sure most folks that are for it are saying it would be a great option. I don't think anyone is saying PLEASE ADD 40000 POINTLESS FETCH QUESTS TO ZELDA PLEASE.

I know they're saying it's a great option because obviously they're for achievements. My question is- knowing what we know about the game's artistic intent- why do they believe achievements are a great option for Breath of the Wild. I haven't gotten an answer that hasn't been argued against if not refuted, and that's not because I believe achievements are bad in every single instance of implementation, but because my understanding of Breath of the Wild's methods of influencing player behavior and discovery and artistic goals cannot reconcile how achievements don't effectively undermine those methods and goals (which again is not the same as saying that they're bad in every single instance of implementation).

That, and I haven't seen any specific ideas on individual achievements that would be good, especially since a lot of the optional content you get results in rewards anyway that are equivalent. You get collectibles, weapons, items, money, and abilities for the optional content anyway. Collect all 900 Korok seeds? You hilariously get the golden scat. Do all of the Shrines? Your health and stamina become massive. Free all of the Divine Beasts? You get the Champions' abilities, plus a handicap added onto Ganon, plus a visual marker on your loading screen. A lot of these things are, for all intents and purposes, achievements- incentives to do these optional things- so honestly what would the addition of system-side validation actually add here in BotW's ecosystem?

I am definitely arguing that trophies can be a wonderful addition to lots of games because they can signpost content that could be easily missed or overlooked. Consider the fact I would have never in a million years have heard the Rusty Anchor song from Grim Fandango without the trophy for it.

The trophy leading you finding out and hearing the Rusty Anchor song is not inherently a benefit compared to other methods of sign-posting that exist within a developer's toolbox. People have been finding oddities and optional content for years before achievements were there to tell them where stuff is. What does an achievement have over the option of a really well done sidequest leading you to the same result?

And so you, being an artist and animator, how much would you care if you see someone beat a game you worked on? How much would you care if you saw someone got a trophy for doing a special move you spent weeks finetuning the animations for?

As an artist, I care less about the mechanical act of an audience checking things off than I do their emotional experience. My best moments during dailies and informal showings have been seeing people laugh or cry at the right moments, not them necessarily picking apart my art with a fine-toothed comb if they were able.

Subsequently, if I made a game with a secrets in it, it would not necessarily be the main source of satisfaction I would derive from the audience's experience. I would much rather make a game that leaves a person stunned or in tears than a game where they show off some achievements to their friends in the aether of the Internet. The moments that really go down in gaming culture history are things like Aerith sacrificing herself, or finding out that Red was the one who was on top of Mt. Silver, or being blown away by the haunting chorus in Halo's main menu when you turned on your Xbox that Christmas morning.

If I ever wanted to be a game developer, those are the things I would want to achieve and be remembered for. Not fucking collectibles.

 

[foltzie1]

Trophies no.

Stamps. . . Yes.

 

[plagiarize]

I'm curious. How does having optional short cuts change the experience but optional achievements don't?

It's like Common People by Pulp.

The rich girl can try to live like a common person as hard as she might, but she'll never fully understand because at any point she can call her Daddy. The exit is always right there.

Having an eject button and not using it, is very different to not having an eject button, psychologically.

 

[Fisty]

Snip

You seem to be arguing the theory of trophies but you are ignoring how they actually work, and have actually worked in practice for the last decade. Apparently trophies are somehow different and more insidious then me getting perfect save files back on PS1 RPGs or collecting all the dog tags in MGS2 back on PS2, because there's a picture and that pops up when I do it on PS3 or PS4.

 

[ZangBa]

Trophies might have kept me playing the game, though I doubt that's a good thing since I got really bored of it.

 

[Liliana Eileen]

But the sarcasm and victim complex from people whose ideas have been rebuked is perfectly fine. Okay.

Bye Felicia.

Exactly. Pretty much this topic in a nutshell. People that legitimately think BOTW would not benefit from achievements/trophies for a plethora of reasons equates to "fanboys vehemently against the existence of achievements/trophies, mind your business (yes, some troll literally said mind your business a few pages back)."

Yet it is okay for the opposite "side" to say things like no trophies is the reason they're never going to play BOTW. When pointed out, other people defend it. That has to be the most asinine thing I have ever read. Yes, it doesn't affect anyone else, but it is still a stupid statement. Ignore one of the greatest games of all time and future benchmark for other games because of an arbitrary choice? How did these people play games before Microsoft introduced achievements on an OS level (and Sony copied years later)? If someone says something like that, it is within reason to have a valid criticism.

I love achievements. I think they add value to many games, although not every game. But does Zelda need them? Not at all. There are already achievements in the game, just not OS level. People saying it would be incentive to go explore that part of the map they haven't yet explored... just go fucking explore it? That is a true example of a psychological effect.

One of my friends is the very definition of an achievement wh0re, and has 25,000+ achievements on Xbox, like 600k gamerscore. He usually will not play games for fun (or at least, his idea of fun is getting as much achievements as possible) and I can't count the number of times we have tried to get him to play a game with us like Overwatch. Even though he likes the game, and is sure he would have fun with us, he won't touch it because he feels MP only games take too long to 100% And he doesn't want it on his "card." Whatever, he is his own person. Well, he bought a Switch and BOTW (due to hype actually, funny story I will save for another time) and has invested a LOT of time into the game. It's all he has played for a while now and we talk about it a bunch at work. It's too early to say, but I feel this game changed his outlook and philosophy on gaming. I plan on writing a thread on this when I get posting privileges, actually.

 

[Nepenthe]

Then why does it seem to be a problem for you? Why are you questioning they're enjoyment of them?

Because it's a discussion. Can I not ask questions to try and wrangle some understanding and common ground out of people who disagree with me? Or is the point ultimately that disliking achievements in any instance just isn't allowed here?

When the flaws are "it's immersion breaking and distracting", then yes, ignoring them is a perfectly valid thing to bring up.

Ignoring something is valid in a discussion about the flaws and merits of games inasmuch as it potentially solves the problem of the player's personal experience, such as when people ask for motivation to finish or understand a game or movie they don't fundamentally click with. But it doesn't actually have anything to do with whether or not achievements can be improved in any way, or even if they belong in every single game as an option for people who do want them.

People don't have to accept what the company says when the competition does otherwise, they're a company, they don't have any feelings to protect here, why do you care that people continue to ask? Do you work for them or something?

Man, I remember when I was called out for being smug and assuming.

Regardless, it's not a matter of feelings. It's a matter of general hypocrisy. You want people to respect that you want achievements anywhere and everywhere without affording any of the respect in return by recognizing that some people either don't want achievements in specific games or on specific platforms for their own valid reasons, reasons which you and others just hand-wave away with irrelevant "solutions." This isn't actually respect.

And I care when people ask for things that they want in games that I might disagree with because these things could potentially affect me and my experiences with certain games too. For example, if most people really liked the future warfare shit of Call of Duty while I liked the classic modern warfare stuff, I'm gonna be vociferous about that in return because you're advocating for something that affects my personal gaming experience. The fact that I can not just buy the new games and thus effectively "ignore it" doesn't solve the issue that I want more games like the old ones.

People are allowed to say they want Nintendo to have achievements. Just like they're allowed to say they want a new Metroid or F-Zero. Or want Netflix on the Switch. Or Themes. Or discounts. No one is holding a gun up to Nintendo's head here. People dont need to respect a company's descision here, it's weird that you want them to.

People are also allowed to say that achievements in some games (or even all games- I don't agree with that) are a dumbass idea, just as you are allowed to "ignore it." But most people who are telling others to ignore things that bother them aren't taking their own advice: we've got tons of pro-achievement people insisting that their ideas be "respected" because "they're doing no harm," while the equally harmless thought that achievements don't belong in BotW and the game can stand as is, or even that achievements don't belong in every environment has been righteously fought against, with a persecution complex to top it off, by framing my side of the argument as being almost oppressive. It's ridiculous.

 

[DNAbro]

If there were trophies I would probably have a much bigger incentive to get all Korok seeds or finish upgrading everything. I might do it eventually regardless though.

 

[Boy Wander]

In Nintendo's next console, they should make an optional achievement system and give you an achievement for switching them off. That's what I'd do anyway.

 

[Liliana Eileen]

If there were trophies I would probably have a much bigger incentive to get all Korok seeds or finish upgrading everything. I might do it eventually regardless though.

But there is a trophy for getting all 900 korok seeds.

 

[Nepenthe]

It's like Common People by Pulp.

The rich girl can try to live like a common person as hard as she might, but she'll never fully understand because at any point she can call her Daddy. The exit is always right there.

Having an eject button and not using it, is very different to not having an eject button, psychologically.

Alright; I get you. However, I think the difference here is one of different methods of reinforcement (I'm pretty sure there are terms for the distinctions I'm about to make if anyone wants to better clarify). Having a cheat or shortcut in the game definitely affects the way a player views it because at the very least, the conceptual difficulty is lessened because you're permanently aware of an out of some sort. You're opting out of something, whereas with achievements it's mostly about opting in.

However, while this is definitely a major difference between shortcuts and achievements, I still wouldn't argue in good faith that the opting-in nature of achievement means that they have no psychological effect on the audience either, even on people who consciously choose not to get all of them. They potentially spoil things, they make you aware of challenges that you are now unable to happen across or discover by yourself, they track your progress which might make you prone to getting some of them whereas you otherwise wouldn't, and I'm sure there's others effects people can cite.

So achievements, I think, have a psychological effect on everyone regardless of whether or not you choose to use them, in a similar manner that knowing shortcuts do. From there, I would argue that these psychological effects do have a different context in the games they're in. Like, achievements in Yooka-Laylee make far more sense to me than in BotW because it's a collectathon that forces you to collect lots of shit to even progress at all, and thus the design of the game is retrofitted to get you to do this.

 

[IrishNinja]

god yes, I'd love to know which of my friends is enough of a madman to get all the seeds

 

[Fisty]

However, while this is definitely a major difference between shortcuts and achievements, I still wouldn't argue in good faith that the opting-in nature of achievement means that they have no psychological effect on the audience either, even on people who consciously choose not to get all of them. They potentially spoil things, they make you aware of challenges that you are now unable to happen across or discover by yourself, they track your progress which might make you prone to getting some of them whereas you otherwise wouldn't, and I'm sure there's others effects people can cite.

And none of that applies to people who chose to turn off trophy notifications and don't click the trophy button on the settings bar. It's completely optional and doesn't affect a person that chooses not to use the feature. AT ALL. How are we still arguing this

 

[Nanashrew]

I don't think achievements would have been very good for BotW when you want to get deeply immersed. Or looking at the achievements like some kind of guide to do things off a checklist rather than exploring and finding and figuring things out yourself.

Achievements could work in other games, but I don't think they would be that great for BotW.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

The point is to use your own damn imagination...

The point of trophies (smart ones) is to come up with stuff that my imagination didn't come up with.


Somewhere along the line a particularly demographic of people who play games decided that trophies and achievements are an affront to them.

The literally don't detract from a game. In fact...they only add to a game.

You and others in this thread that post "I actually think it would have ruined the game for me."

You're all fucking mad as Hatters.

 

[fvng]

The point of trophies (smart ones) is to come up with stuff that my imagination didn't come up with.


Somewhere along the line a particularly demographic of people who play games decided that trophies and achievements are an affront to them.

The literally don't detract from a game. In fact...they only add to a game.

You and others in this thread that post "I actually think it would have ruined the game for me."

You're all fucking mad as Hatters.

yeah there have been no rational arguments from any of them, it's been humorous seeing them grasp at baseless and meaningless reasons to attack optional features.

 

[kunonabi]

Trophies no.

Stamps. . . Yes.

miiverse is dead and Nintendo's recent stamp/achievement design has been complete garbage.

 

[Nanashrew]

The point of trophies (smart ones) is to come up with stuff that my imagination didn't come up with.


Somewhere along the line a particularly demographic of people who play games decided that trophies and achievements are an affront to them.

The literally don't detract from a game. In fact...they only add to a game.

You and others in this thread that post "I actually think it would have ruined the game for me."

You're all fucking mad as Hatters.

Not that many games do this though. Most are checklists based on a certain amount of something done or items collected etc., with a couple of "do this thing to an enemy" which you'll likely have to do in a story related mission.

 

[Nepenthe]

And none of that applies to people who chose to turn off trophy notifications and don't click the trophy button on the settings bar. It's completely optional and doesn't affect a person that chooses not to use the feature. AT ALL. How are we still arguing this

Because you seem to think the solution to every thing that could be flawed is to ignore it. What if I happened to be a person who liked achievements, but thought some of them were shit or the way they were commonly implemented kind of proved detrimental to certain games? Gonna tell me to turn them off? But I like achievements. So what does that person actually do? Hell, what about achievements in games that are programmed on the software side and cannot be turned off? Guess I should just not play the game? But what if I wanted to play the game? Can achievements just not be critiqued in any manner whatsoever?

Honestly, if you're so secure in how utterly perfect achievements are in every single instance of implementation, why do you feel the need to keep responding to me? Go earn some achievements or something instead of staying here remaining frustrated with me that I'm not kowtowing to your rebuttals.

You know, take your own advice and "ignore" me. Your participation in this thread is "entirely optional."

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

yeah there have been no rational arguments from any of them, it's been humorous seeing them grasp at baseless and meaningless reasons to attack optional features.

Arguing for trophies in Breath of the Wild doesn't mean I think trophies are being intelligently handled so far.

In fact often they are phoned in. Complete story-stage X (But I have my reasons as to why I think developers put those in) or collect 100 arrows or some awful multiplayer type nonsense.

It would be great for a developer to really put some thought into a handful of interesting/challenging trophies.

Breath of the Wild is so remarkably clever and every time I play it I see something happen that I think..."Wow. I never would have thought of that if I had not seen it." It would support some really clever moments.

A year or two from now...it would be nice to be able to look back and see some screen shots associated with some trophies that "help" me remember those moments.

Chasing a trophy or achievement in some games has generated some incredibly memorable moments for me. (as well as others)

There's nothing wrong with them. More interesting are the people that take such offense to them. I don't understand the outcry.

It will prove an interesting day if/when Nintendo ever goes with such a thing. People will lose their minds.

 

[test_account]

I think those who are strongly against these extra challenges are afraid that it will alter their way of playing too much, and are afraid that this will be added on a OS level. I dont mean that in a disrespectful way, but its the only reason i can see why someone are so strongt against it. Its kinda hard to avoid it. I mean, one cant play any Playstation or Xbox games, also including many PC games. Not to mention those games who have it embedded into the game, like Smash Bros and Shovel Knight. If it becomes a burden, isnt there any way to rethink the situation? I was trying to get all trophies in the games before, but at some point, i didnt find it as important anymore. I still enjoy a good trophy hunt, but then i enjoy doing it. If i feel that its too boring, i drop it.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

Not that many games do this though. Most are checklists based on a certain amount of something done or items collected etc., with a couple of "do this thing to an enemy" which you'll likely have to do in a story related mission.

I agree 100%

Bad trophies/achievements are made by developers that just don't really care.


There's not many great examples of smart or challenging trophies BUT...if anyone could do a bang up job of it, particularly in relation to Breath of the Wild; it would be Nintendo.

 

[Nepenthe]

I agree 100%

Bad trophies/achievements are made by developers that just don't really care.


There's not many great examples of smart or challenging trophies BUT...if anyone could do a bang up job of it, particularly in relation to Breath of the Wild; it would be Nintendo.

Ideas for good trophies in specific games would be a far more interesting discussion to have then whether or not bad trophies are ever acceptable, honestly.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

I think those who are strongly against these extra challenges are afraid that it will alter their way of playing too much...

This.

There's a group out there that don't seem to get that the thing that controls how you play a game...is you.


Go search the Nioh thread were people were shouting from the rooftops about how an altogether optional "slow time" spell in Nioh was breaking the entire game and turning it into "easy mode".


There were people posting that just knowing that the option exists means they have to use it. Or simply knowing the option exists ruins it for them.


This thread really isn't that different from that one.

Somewhere along the line...some gamers got really fucking weird about self-control.

 

[Nepenthe]

This.

There's a group out there that don't seem to get that the thing that controls how you play a game...is you.


Go search the Nioh thread were people were shouting from the rooftops about how an altogether optional "slow time" spell in Nioh was breaking the entire game and turning it into "easy mode".


There were people posting that just knowing that the option exists means they have to use it. Or simply knowing the option exists ruins it for them.


This thread really isn't that different from that one.

Somewhere along the line...some gamers got really fucking weird about self-control.

This isn't entirely fair.

Players should expect their experiences to be crafted in such a way that a good flow of difficulty per the experience is maintained via the tools they are given within a specific game environment. The mere presentation of unbalanced options, useless options, broken options, and overall shitty options can serve to change the context of the game as a whole just as the presentation of quality options can elevate games to new heights, even if you can make the decision to not use them. When people make the argument that they shouldn't have to "gimp themselves" to make a boring game fun or challenging, it is ultimately the same principle. This is just basic game design and has little to do with people's self-control.

 

[Comet]

I used to be a trophy whore, so glad playing all the Nintendo games in the last year or so hack knocked me off that addiction. Hell no, keep trophies away. I think I'm fixed of that.